Khorne Daemonkin - Discussion, Tactics, Background

[thraxdown]

Brazen onslaught makes bloodcrushers not completely terrible. They're still fragile as all gitout. But that plus 1 attack, plus one for bftbg if you so choose, and one on the charge.... they pack quite a punch if your opponent chooses to ignore them.

[Scribe]

Biggest issues I had with Crushers are Dreadnought's tarpitting things, and the instant death threshold. A pity since I love the models.

[Slayer le Boucher]

Yeah a shame that you can't buy a wargear or weapon to give extra strength to the Champ to get rid of those Dreads.

 

Its pityfull that you have to avoid them.

 

The only way i can thing of is to put or ally a CSm character on a bike with them with a PF or Meltas.

 

or use the Bikes from the Gorepack to Melta the thing, at least to immobilise it, so that the Crushers can hit its back( does it still work like this?)

[Scribe]

Yeah I think so, once immobilized you hit its Rear armour.

 

Good call on the mortal addition, throw in a PF/Melta Bomb and they at least get a chance.

[Scribe]

Thoughts on the following 1750? This is the basis of my larger lists at this point I think.

 

Lord of Slaughter

Bloodthirster of Insensate Rage

 

Slaughtercult

Chaos Lord, Axe of Khorne, The Blood-forged Armour, Juggernaught, Meltabomb

8 Bloodletters

8 Bloodletters

8 Cultists

5 Possessed, Rhino

 

Gorepack

15 Flesh Hounds

3 Bikers, CombiMelta, 2 x Melta

8 Bikers, Axe of Khorne, Meltabomb ,Icon of Wrath

 

War Engine x 2

Maulerfiend, Lasher 

Maulerfiend, Lasher 

[Sviox]

Makes me sad to see that I can't field my 2nd edition Khorne Berzerkers as bolters are not an allowed option. And to think they had a plastic box of them.. And there I was, hoping they would keep their promise of providing rules for all miniatures they have released.

[Plaguecaster]

For someone who isn't up to date, what's with these formation stuff? can we only field armies only using these formations now or something

[incinerator950]

Makes me sad to see that I can't field my 2nd edition Khorne Berzerkers as bolters are not an allowed option. And to think they had a plastic box of them.. And there I was, hoping they would keep their promise of providing rules for all miniatures they have released.

Run them as marked marines?

[Kol Saresk]

Not exactly. You can still build armies using the regular Force Org Chart. This is a Combined Armed(or Allies if you are using Allies) Detachment, or CAD as it is normally shortened too. These Formation Detachments are an alternate Force Org Chart that uses entire formations versus slots for individual units.

 

These formations are completely voluntary, although not all of them can be taken outside the Formation Detachment.

 

And there is always the option to go Unbound, which is just you throwing whatever you want into an army.

[Valikojan]

I may be completely overreacting here, but does Khorne Daemonkin mean the death of CSM the army? Thoughts?

[Nehekhare]

 

Deep strikes and reserves comes in play in the Beginning of the turn " phase", AND THEN, you have the movement phase.

 

I think the source of all the confusion about this matter lies with the two expressions "arrive" and "move". Once those are seperated correctly, the confusion vanishes:

 

 

as per pg. 162, "some units [such as summoned units] must arrive by deep-strike. they always begin the game in reserves [even if not existing before] and always arrive by deep strike".

 

"Arriving from Reserves" on pg. 135 clarifies a very specific order: "you must FIRST ROLL for all Reserves [to arrive], and THEN MOVE any arriving Reserves, BEFORE any other units can move" (pg. 135, last paragraph).

 

as per pg. 68 Deep striking Flying Monstrous Creatures ARRIVE in swooping mode, but "At the start of its MOVE, a flying monstrous Creature must declare whether it is Swooping or Gliding until the start of its next turn".

 

 

This means: Deployment happens after arrival from deep strike reserves and is a "move", thus allowing for a change of flight mode! good for summoned FMCs!

 

although this normally happens at the start of the player turn (traditional deep strike), it may happen during any phase in the case of summoning (start of turn for blood tithe, psychic phase for malefic daemonology, even during the enemy turn when the bearer of an axe of ruin dies).

 

You cannot, however, charge in the same turn you changed flight modes (pg. 68) and/or arrived from reserves (pg. 136).

 

Note that changing flight mode in the enemy turn (during deployment move after arrival from DS by means of axe of ruin bearer being killed) thus means you start your following turn gliding and able to move and charge freely!

[The Doctor Of War]

I may be completely overreacting here, but does Khorne Daemonkin mean the death of CSM the army? Thoughts?

 

Not in the slightest. The CSM still has its place since it allows a much broader army. If any army is at risk i'd argue it is the Chaos Daemon books, assuming that Khorne Daemonkin is followed by Tzeentch Daemonkin etc.

[Adra'Melek]

I may be completely overreacting here, but does Khorne Daemonkin mean the death of CSM the army? Thoughts?

In what way? Do you mean they'll stop doing a CSM book?  Possibly but I don't think so.  This is specific type of khorne army, not the definitive list of all khorne forces.  Force example, the Black Legion forces include Khorne fanatics, right? But these are not part of a daemonkin army that worships a Bloodthirster. So it makes sense to have Khorne berserkers in the CSM codex.

 

Now it could happen that all the god specific forces are move to their own books, but there is (at the moment) plenty of non-aligned forces.  Perhaps the Night Lords will go back to being Khorne followers but I don't see it.

 

Personally I think was just something they knocked up because of the new Bloodthrister release. Now some people may see that as money grab or weak but you don't need to buy it or run it. Just a fun (for a given value of 'fun') and interesting (for a given value of 'interesting') of running a themed army.

 

I don't think this will actually have much of baring on the release of the CSM codex.

[Sception]

Nah, it doesn't mean death of CSM book. Long term it might mean death of the daemons as a separate book, though, since there really aren't unaligned daemons as much, so once all alignments have their own dedicated book, there won't be as much reason for a separate book, but...

 

I just don't see that happening any time soon. Certainly even if they never replaced the current CSM and Daemon books they would remain valid through 7th and probably 8th editions as well. And even if they don't drop those books, we won't see an update before then either from what I can tell. Unfortunately for us, GW decided to more or less freeze the existing armies in place right when we happened to be in the middle of our least interesting, least fun, least functional, and least fluffy codex basically ever. It's not going to get worse really, but neither is it ever going to get better.

 

Thoughts on the following 1750? This is the basis of my larger lists at this point I think.

 

Lord of Slaughter

Bloodthirster of Insensate Rage

I don't know. I'm not a fan of melee FMCs, and this points value seems too low to splurge on this.

 

Slaughtercult

Chaos Lord, Axe of Khorne, The Blood-forged Armour, Juggernaught, Meltabomb

8 Bloodletters

8 Bloodletters

8 Cultists

5 Possessed, Rhino

Looks about right, but I'd go in for an extra pack of cultists.

 

Or alternatively shift the cultists out, add another unit, and use them to pick up another detachment for a second lord? Maybe an allied CSM detachment, nabbing an AoBF lord to go with your larger bike squad, maybe at higher points a dread claw for those obligatory possessed? Or add that second cultist and make it a KDK combined arms detachment, and get your hounds out of that to skimp on bikes?

 

Two units of hounds w/ lords might be unworkable at this points value while still fielding the slaughter cult, but that would be my target.

 

Gorepack

15 Flesh Hounds

3 Bikers, CombiMelta, 2 x Melta

8 Bikers, Axe of Khorne, Meltabomb ,Icon of Wrath

I'd cut the second biker unit back down to min w/ 2 meltas for tank hunting if you can't get a second lord for them. Alternatively, if you add a CAD for a second lord, you might drop this formation entirely to just take two units of flesh hounds out of the CAD. Flesh hounds with HoW are nice, but two units of flesh hounds with Lords is better, imo.

 

War Engine x 2

Maulerfiend, Lasher 

Maulerfiend, Lasher

looks about right. More at higher points, if possible, but at this points value 2 should be good.

 

Them's my thoughts. Obviously not based on experience, so keep the salt handy.

[Shinobi]

I'm not sure if it's been brought up in here.

 

But is it just me, or are there no restrictions of Daemonkin characters to join other marked units in other CSM Codexes?

[firestorm40k]

Have not played a game yet, had a rough week or work and have a rougher week next week so bowed out of a monthly RTT in the DC area. Was going to use this book so I will not play again until Thursday evening. 

 

Here are a few things that caught my eye. 

 

[edit]

 

CONS

*CSM units are still kinda poopy as a whole. Zerkers still not good and they really missed a chance for them to be a mainstay of this book I think.

So, basically, the picture I'm getting is this is Codex  'Cultist/Hound/Biker Spam', and doesn't really address that basic CSM (including Cults) are lacking in effectiveness.

 

Thanks for the summary - I will give this a miss, like the other CSM supplements.

[Sception]

I'm not sure if it's been brought up in here.

 

But is it just me, or are there no restrictions of Daemonkin characters to join other marked units in other CSM Codexes?

The main chaos marine codex provides that restriction even if the KDK book does not. Likewise the daemon book's insubstantial rule prevents KDK khorne characters (EDIT: marine or daemon) from joining any C:CD daemon unit, whether khorne or otherwise.

 

What is not prevented, at the moment, is KDK khorn daemon characters joining C:CSM (including Black Legion and Crimson Slaughter) units regardless of alignment, or C:CSM characters from joining KDK daemon units again regardless of alignment.

 

So you could, from what I can tell, have a nurgle bike lord from C:CSM (or either of its supplements) join a KDK unit of hounds, or a KDK herald of khorne join a C:CSM unit of noise marines, or whatever.

 

This does, however, seem contrary to intent, so I would avoid doing so, and if the KDK book ever sees errata I would expect the loophole to be closed.

[Shinobi]

Thanks for the explanation!

[Vrakas]

On the topic of the bloodthirster, I think Rules as intended/fluff wise the bloodthirster is exploding out of the body of the champion not flying in from the great beyond. So he should be on the ground or gliding in.

[King Jackal]

On the topic of the bloodthirster, I think Rules as intended/fluff wise the bloodthirster is exploding out of the body of the champion not flying in from the great beyond. So he should be on the ground or gliding in.

Agreed

[Sception]

Fluff wise, why would a bloodthirster exploding out of a guy in melee get booted out of melee?

 

I'm not sure fluff or narrative fit with deep strike at all, regardless of interpretation on this issue. Regular daemon deep strikes are also supposed to represent manifestation rather than 'swooping down', would you argue that a deep striking C:CD thister may also ignore the swooping restriction?

[Khornestar]

"FREE AT LAST! SKUUUUULLS! BLOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOD!"

 

...

 

"Now, what to do? What to do?" 

 

*taps fingernails against axe blade*

 

"Hmm..."

 

"I guess I'll just stand here for a minute and think on it."

 

Sounds like a Bloodthirster to me!

[Adra'Melek]

Fluff wise, why would a bloodthirster exploding out of a guy in melee get booted out of melee?

 

I'm not sure fluff or narrative fit with deep strike at all, regardless of interpretation on this issue. Regular daemon deep strikes are also supposed to represent manifestation rather than 'swooping down', would you argue that a deep striking C:CD thister may also ignore the swooping restriction?

 

The Xiphon has the following in it's experiemental rules (but not as a rule specific for the Xiphon)

 

 

 

Flyers and the Deep Strike Special Rule

As well as arriving via the usual Reserves method, some Flyers also have the ability to deploy via Deep Strike, representing a vertical ‘dive’ onto the battlefield. If the Flyer in question has the Hover type, the controlling player must declare before the Deep Strike is attempted whether the Flyer is Zooming or being treated as a Fast Skimmer. If using Hover mode, the rules for Deep Strike apply as standard. If using a Zooming Deep Strike, Flyers deploying via Deep Strike count as making a Zoom move and having moved at Cruising speed (18") on the turn they arrive, but are not moved any further in the turn in which they are deployed. They cannot evade, go Flat Out, drop bombs or deploy transported units on the turn in which they arrive. On subsequent turns, the Flyer is free to operate as normal. This is a risky proposition for an aircraft and a test of a pilot’s skill, and so the usual rules for Deep Strike mishaps apply even though the Flyer is notionally at a higher altitude than is normally the case.

 

1)  This is referring to vehicles, rather than FMC.

2)  This is ForgeWorld and doesn't mean it would be taken up by GW

3)  This is experiemental and doesn't mean it would be taken up by FW

 

But this would be a reasonably common sense approach from what I can see.  I'd be tempted to see if we can get this house ruled to apply.

[Scribe]

Fair points on my list malisteen, I just realized that the secondary benefit of the Slaughtercult will never help my hounds/bikes anyway, and the 'fail a moral and sacrifice' bonus only applies to cultists from the Slaughtercult as well.

 

Back to the drawing board a bit.

[arkagl]

While I think this codex is a good start it still lacking. I think one thing that would have made this book awesome would be like an open topped rhino upgrade. Like reduces HP by 1 and gives a rhino open topped. That way zerkers could hop out and assault in the same turn. I think the reduction of a hull point would be a good trade due to less armor on the tank.

 

Also a lot of you are mentioning Khârn have you noticed no mention of the World Eaters in the entire codex. Angron is mentioned like once or twice too. So I hope this means World Eaters will come later but my hoping has been going since 3.5 sooooo not really.

 

I wish that Helm would be able to be equipped to a DP that would be broken but that's how the 3.5 one was.

 

I think an unbound army of nothing but cultist that turn into Bloodthirsters would be fun to do to ppl.