The XIII Legion, Ultramarines

[Ishagu]

 

 

 

Tempest is ordered.....I wonder how long it will take to get here.

I have been consulting the book, and have beem discussing opinions and tactics on the forums. I have a pretty good grasp on how to make a strong Ultramarines legion list now, so ask me if you'd like some inspiration!

Would you mind telling me how telemechrus' rules are? And are the suzerian worth getting?

 

 

I'll hold my hands up and admit that when it comes to the 40K Ultramarines I refer to them as smurfs/Marysues and all other kinds of unflattering names since that's at the same level of artistic creativity we've been peddled. 30K Ultramarines however, nothing of the sort. I actually want to do them as a Legion project which says a hell of a lot on the quality of the writing in Tempest

Im a 30k guy, so i like to hear that. When it comes to 40k i honestly find all space marines a tad bland, and lacking character.

The Suzerains are brilliant imo. The initial 5 are quite pricy but a full squad gives you a saving and they can take a Dedicated Transport Landraider so it doesn't eat into your heavy slot.

 

Basically, they are Artifacer Armour clad close combat specialist wielding str5 ap2 power weapons that strike at normal initiative. They have a good weapon skill, and unlike Terminators they can sweeping advance once they win combat.

 

Telemechrus is basically a venerable Contemptor Dreadnought with ws6. He's not too shabby but I'm not sure I'd field him over a normal Contemptor. He's quite survivable and has a better chance of living after being hit by a D weapon so that's a bonus.

[Fire Golem]

I'm really glad the Suzerians are good. Their models look excellent.

[Remus Ventanus.]

 

 

 

Tempest is ordered.....I wonder how long it will take to get here.

I have been consulting the book, and have beem discussing opinions and tactics on the forums. I have a pretty good grasp on how to make a strong Ultramarines legion list now, so ask me if you'd like some inspiration!

Would you mind telling me how telemechrus' rules are? And are the suzerian worth getting?

 

 

I'll hold my hands up and admit that when it comes to the 40K Ultramarines I refer to them as smurfs/Marysues and all other kinds of unflattering names since that's at the same level of artistic creativity we've been peddled. 30K Ultramarines however, nothing of the sort. I actually want to do them as a Legion project which says a hell of a lot on the quality of the writing in Tempest

Im a 30k guy, so i like to hear that. When it comes to 40k i honestly find all space marines a tad bland, and lacking character.

The Suzerains are brilliant imo. The initial 5 are quite pricy but a full squad gives you a saving and they can take a Dedicated Transport Landraider so it doesn't eat into your heavy slot.

 

Basically, they are Artifacer Armour clad close combat specialist wielding str5 ap2 power weapons that strike at normal initiative. They have a good weapon skill, and unlike Terminators they can sweeping advance once they win combat.

 

Telemechrus is basically a venerable Contemptor Dreadnought with ws6. He's not too shabby but I'm not sure I'd field him over a normal Contemptor. He's quite survivable and has a better chance of living after being hit by a D weapon so that's a bonus.

 

Great to hear!

 

Is there an actual image of the suzies in tempest? Im really curious why they have mk 2 torsos and mk 3 legs...

 

Fug i need my copy!

[Fire Golem]

There's not a Suzerian no. There's an Ivictarus Centurion that it mentions has fought as part of the Suzerian before but he's in MkIV.

[Remus Ventanus.]

There's not a Suzerian no. There's an Ivictarus Centurion that it mentions has fought as part of the Suzerian before but he's in MkIV.

Is there alot of new lore? And does it go into detail about the battle of calth?

[Fire Golem]

The whole fluff bit at the start is about Calth, from page 14 to 70. I haven't read it yet. In terms of lore about the UM as far as I know a lot of it is new, but I'm not really sure what they had before.

[Remus Ventanus.]

The whole fluff bit at the start is about Calth, from page 14 to 70. I haven't read it yet. In terms of lore about the UM as far as I know a lot of it is new, but I'm not really sure what they had before.

Oh man that is fantastic to hear! Thanks!

 

To honor Tempest, i leave you with this:

"Following the Horus Heresy, Ventanus would oversee the Exterminatus of Colchis, homeworld of the Word Bearers, as a form of justice for the fallen of Calth. Before the final assault, Ventanus planted the standard he had picked up so many years ago in the rock of Colchis, declaring that today, the Ultramarines marched for Calth."

[Marshal Rohr]

A full a complete bullet point summary of every paragraph is how we normally share new info.

[Balthamal]

There's a slight mistake in Tempest regarding upper Legion command. Eben Frain is listed as Tetrarch of Occluda whilst Valentus Dolor is the Legate of the Operatii Vigil (The secret police) whilst in Know No Fear Dolo is Tetrarch of Occluda and Frain is nowhere to be seen. It's possible he was killed on Calth but no mention of that is made elsewhere

[Marshal Rohr]

Only 40,000 survivors made it off Calth apparently, with an undefined number of survivors trapped on the surface, and 50,000 on garrison duty across the 500 Worlds.

 

 

So much for suffering the least amount of casualties.

[Slips]

Only 40,000 survivors made it off Calth apparently, with an undefined number of survivors trapped on the surface, and 50,000 on garrison duty across the 500 Worlds.

 

 

So much for suffering the least amount of casualties.

The amount of casualties does lead to the number of 2nd founding Chapters being a bit more probable...

[blackoption]

 

Only 40,000 survivors made it off Calth apparently, with an undefined number of survivors trapped on the surface, and 50,000 on garrison duty across the 500 Worlds.

 

 

So much for suffering the least amount of casualties.

The amount of casualties does lead to the number of 2nd founding Chapters being a bit more probable...

 

To be fair, the scale of Calth makes Pearl Harbor seem like a kid's show.

 

So between 90-100k  Ultramarines post Calth.  Considering how effective the Ultra's could recruit even post shadow crusade (400 of the 500 worlds still within the realm of Ultramar) the Ultra's are still quite a force to reckon with.

[Marshal Rohr]

Yeh, but the Ultra's losing 100,000 Legionaries in a battle that took a day or so? That's a little harsh on FW's part. I love Alan Bligh, but still, that's a little too harsh for my tastes. The Ultra's are supposed to be the 'cavalry' of the Heresy, riding in for a Charge of the Rohirrim epic save of the Fists, Angels, and Scars at Terra. If Ultra's are suddenly the equivalent size of The Sons of Horus after the replaced their Isstvan losses, then I don't see why Horus would even be all the afraid. The Dark Angels were down to around 50,000 post-Calibanite Schism, and the Space Wolves had the crap kicked out of them twice at Prospero and against the Alphas. Together they wouldn't have been able to threaten the combined 9 Traitor Legions who, according to Conquest, had begun massive accelerated recruiting to replace losses even faster. 

 

 

I did appreciate the explanation why the UM Battle Barges and fleet is so :cuss in 40K, though. It was nice to be vindicated. 

[Olis]

It wasn't Alan Bligh that pushed those numbers. KNF at the very least hinted similar numbers, which means this was a decision out of Bligh's hands.

[blackoption]

Hmm...  I would think that accelerated recruiting while on compaign < recruiting from an established base of 400 worlds.  Per conquest, Horus's dark compliance is building a power and support base for his traitor forces. From what little I've glimpsed of Tempest, the Realm of Ultramar is an ideal power base to build strength and resist invasions. (for either traitors or loyalists).  In many ways, calth was the Ultramarine's Pearl Harbor (an attack designed to knock a power out of a war).  Horus followed up by ordering the shadow crusade. But even still, Ultramar retains the vast majority of their worlds. 

 

However, your point has merit.  150k marines dead in one engagement just in one legion (as well as losing over 50% of the Ultramarine total strength in one engagement) is brutal. Therefore I will refrain from future speculation until I have my copy of Tempest.

[Kol Saresk]

Yeh, but the Ultra's losing 100,000 Legionaries in a battle that took a day or so? That's a little harsh on FW's part. I love Alan Bligh, but still, that's a little too harsh for my tastes. The Ultra's are supposed to be the 'cavalry' of the Heresy, riding in for a Charge of the Rohirrim epic save of the Fists, Angels, and Scars at Terra. If Ultra's are suddenly the equivalent size of The Sons of Horus after the replaced their Isstvan losses, then I don't see why Horus would even be all the afraid. The Dark Angels were down to around 50,000 post-Calibanite Schism, and the Space Wolves had the crap kicked out of them twice at Prospero and against the Alphas. Together they wouldn't have been able to threaten the combined 9 Traitor Legions who, according to Conquest, had begun massive accelerated recruiting to replace losses even faster.

 

 

I did appreciate the explanation why the UM Battle Barges and fleet is so :cuss in 40K, though. It was nice to be vindicated.

Well when you have most of the Ultramarines bundled up in the same places and you bombed a decent portion, kill more than a few while they're trapped in their ships and then drop some ships on the rest, completely wrecking the planet, and that's before you turn the planet into a radioactive dust ball, the numbers really shouldn't be that surprising.

[Marshal Rohr]

If Lorgar considered Erebus and Kor Phaeton idiots for causing 80% casualties at the Calth Muster with only 50,000 men, he's easily the biggest :cuss of all the Traitor Primarchs. This makes it look like the whole 'Calth was ultimately a waste of time, the Shadow Crusade is the real prize' plot point is invalid. Who is the Shadow Crusade fighting that is such a threat? Ultramarine youth armies and freshly initiated legionaries? 

[Stofficus]

And we can expect the Ultras to do what everyone's doing in this time period - recruit everything that doesn't turn into a gibbering mass by gene-seed implantation, which they're in a prime position to do given the whole semi-independent, well-established Ultramar system. I would expect, for literary sake at least, for them to be larger at the end of the Shadow Crusade than they were immediately post-Calth with the Word Bearers and World Eaters severely depleted by the campaign. 

 

After all, post-Heresy and post-Scouring both sides are supposed to be basically out of manpower, with the loyalists somewhat ahead, but we're still talking, what, less than 200,000 between loyalist and traitor by the time the Scouring is over? 

 

Correct me if I'm wrong, but post-Scouring the World Eaters and Emperor's Children are basically destroyed as legions, with the Death Guard little better off, with only the fragmented Sons of Horus, Word Bearers, and maybe the Iron Warriors having any numbers of consequence (with, of course, the Alpha Legion a big ?) while among the loyalists only the Ultramarines produce a significant number of 2nd founding chapters, with the Fists and Dark Angels only producing a handful each, the remainder producing single-digit chapters and the Salamanders producing none. 

 

By the time the series has run its course in 2174 there shouldn't be a whole lot of power armour left walking around. 

[Kol Saresk]

If Lorgar considered Erebus and Kor Phaeton idiots for causing 80% casualties at the Calth Muster with only 50,000 men, he's easily the biggest :cuss of all the Traitor Primarchs. This makes it look like the whole 'Calth was ultimately a waste of time, the Shadow Crusade is the real prize' plot point is invalid. Who is the Shadow Crusade fighting that is such a threat? Ultramarine youth armies and freshly initiated legionaries?

Well, last I read, 100,000 Dark Angels, the Shattered Legions, the Imperial Fists survivors of Phall and all the Ultramarines that survived Calth and are not involved with the Underground War.

 

Oh, and did I mention the Blood Angel Legion? And the millions of mortal soldiers?

[Olis]

Considering Kor Phaeron and Erebus were tasked with wiping out the Ultramarines that were at Calth, the failure to do so (and they lost a significant portion of their force in what was supposed to be the mother of all ambushes) would mean the Ultramarines would be back - and they would be pissed. No wonder Lorgar isn't best pleased.

[Marshal Rohr]

Yeh, but with 90K guys? 20K of which were recruits (and a bunch were wiped out at Armatura)? Not that scary. And the Dark Angels were reduced by half with Luther's rebellion, so that's only 50K in their corner, and they didn't even try to go to Terra.

[Olis]

While we're at it, we might as well nail the numbers down - Tempest tells us that precisely 185,923 Ultramarines were deployed on Calth. That leaves roughly 64,000 (and change) elsewhere. Of those 185,923, 119,422 were killed and "a further 28,392 were rendered combat-incapable". This leaves 38,109 alive and capable to fight elsewhere at the time Guilliman left Calth. Which leaves us a Legion of 102,109 (give or take).

 

Considering many Legions were of comparable strength after the aftermath of Isstvan,  an angry Legion of 100k led by a lauded and recognised strategist and tactician is nothing to sniff at. Your 90k estimate is correct with the ten thousand left behind on Calth (give or take) along with the wounded, but it's still a good number of Ultramarines that were at large in Ultramar in the immediate aftermath of Calth. I'd still say that is more than enough for Guilliman to cause trouble with.

[Kol Saresk]

Luther's Rebellion hasn't happened yet. That happens after the Heresy.

 

Besides, let's look at how the story has played out. 90K Ultramarines starting out against two Legions, who have just destroyed 100 worlds and have bled to achieve that every inch of the way.

 

Two years later, the Ultramarines have fought the entirety of those two Legions to a standstill. Meanwhile, they are gaining allies from Loyalist Iron Warriors, Imperial Fists, Dark Angels, White Scars, Blood Angels, Iron Hands, Raven Guard and Salamanders. Even Space Wolves.

 

You really think that after two years with access to 400 worlds that the Ultramarines haven't been rebuilding?

 

So after two years of fighting in enemy space, the Word Bearers and World Eaters now have to fight the entire Ultramarines Legion, the entire Blood Angels Legion, the Imperial Fists survivors of Phall(who have had two years to rebuild), the Dark Angels traveling with the Lion, and all the remnants of the Shattered Legions who have joined up with Guilliman.

 

Something which Calth, was supposed to prevent with the death of Guilliman and the destruction of the XIII Legion.

 

So while Calth was a pyrrhic victory for the Word Bearers in the short term, it was a resounding failure in the long term because instead of breaking the Ultramarines, it instead gave them a rallying point.

While we're at it, we might as well nail the numbers down - Tempest tells us that precisely 185,923 Ultramarines were deployed on Calth. That leaves roughly 64,000 (and change) elsewhere. Of those 185,923, 119,422 were killed and "a further 28,392 were rendered combat-incapable". This leaves 38,109 alive and capable to fight elsewhere at the time Guilliman left Calth. Which leaves us a Legion of 102,109 (give or take).

 

Considering many Legions were of comparable strength after the aftermath of Isstvan, an angry Legion of 100k led by a lauded and recognised strategist and tactician is nothing to sniff at. Your 90k estimate is correct with the ten thousand left behind on Calth (give or take) along with the wounded, but it's still a good number of Ultramarines that were at large in Ultramar in the immediate aftermath of Calth. I'd still say that is more than enough for Guilliman to cause trouble with.

Shoot, I'd argue the 28,000 combat incapable are the survivors trapped on Calth. While they can fight the Underground War, they're basically trapped there and as such are relatively useless in the big picture.

[Remus Ventanus.]

Luther's Rebellion hasn't happened yet. That happens after the Heresy.

 

Besides, let's look at how the story has played out. 90K Ultramarines starting out against two Legions, who have just destroyed 100 worlds and have bled to achieve that every inch of the way.

 

Two years later, the Ultramarines have fought the entirety of those two Legions to a standstill. Meanwhile, they are gaining allies from Loyalist Iron Warriors, Imperial Fists, Dark Angels, White Scars, Blood Angels, Iron Hands, Raven Guard and Salamanders. Even Space Wolves.

 

You really think that after two years with access to 400 worlds that the Ultramarines haven't been rebuilding?

 

So after two years of fighting in enemy space, the Word Bearers and World Eaters now have to fight the entire Ultramarines Legion, the entire Blood Angels Legion, the Imperial Fists survivors of Phall(who have had two years to rebuild), the Dark Angels traveling with the Lion, and all the remnants of the Shattered Legions who have joined up with Guilliman.

 

Something which Calth, was supposed to prevent with the death of Guilliman and the destruction of the XIII Legion.

 

So while Calth was a pyrrhic victory for the Word Bearers in the short term, it was a resounding failure in the long term because instead of breaking the Ultramarines, it instead gave them a rallying point.

While we're at it, we might as well nail the numbers down - Tempest tells us that precisely 185,923 Ultramarines were deployed on Calth. That leaves roughly 64,000 (and change) elsewhere. Of those 185,923, 119,422 were killed and "a further 28,392 were rendered combat-incapable". This leaves 38,109 alive and capable to fight elsewhere at the time Guilliman left Calth. Which leaves us a Legion of 102,109 (give or take).

 

Considering many Legions were of comparable strength after the aftermath of Isstvan, an angry Legion of 100k led by a lauded and recognised strategist and tactician is nothing to sniff at. Your 90k estimate is correct with the ten thousand left behind on Calth (give or take) along with the wounded, but it's still a good number of Ultramarines that were at large in Ultramar in the immediate aftermath of Calth. I'd still say that is more than enough for Guilliman to cause trouble with.

Shoot, I'd argue the 28,000 combat incapable are the survivors trapped on Calth. While they can fight the Underground War, they're basically trapped there and as such are relatively useless in the big picture.

 

I wouldnt say the ultramarines in the underworld war are useless in the big picture, because they do leave calth during the heresy. They may not have been able to fight in the shadow crusade tho.

[Fire Golem]

I don't think they do leave Calth during the heresy do they? I thought the underground war went on for years.