The XIII Legion, Ultramarines

[Olis]

I don't think they do leave Calth during the heresy do they? I thought the underground war went on for years.

 

Guilliman left Calth and almost 40,000 marines there. Those were the ones who fought in the Underground War.

[Remus Ventanus.]

I don't think they do leave Calth during the heresy do they? I thought the underground war went on for years.

In unremembered empire it stated that most of the marines had been rescued from calth i believe.

[Fire Golem]

 

I don't think they do leave Calth during the heresy do they? I thought the underground war went on for years.

 

 

Guilliman left Calth and almost 40,000 marines there. Those were the ones who fought in the Underground War.

I know. I was questioning whether those who fought the underground war got off of Calth during the heresy. I thought it went on for years.

 

I don't think they do leave Calth during the heresy do they? I thought the underground war went on for years.

 

In unremembered empire it stated that most of the marines had been rescued from calth i believe.

Oh, maybe.

[Kol Saresk]

 

 

I don't think they do leave Calth during the heresy do they? I thought the underground war went on for years.

In unremembered empire it stated that most of the marines had been rescued from calth i believe.

That was in reference to the Ultramarines that were a part of the fleet that Guilliman took from Calth. The ones on the sirface were trapped Underground for several years until the end of the Heresy if I recall correctly so while they fought the Underground War, they did not contribute to the Heresy at large.

 

Although somehow Aeonid Thiel was able to travel back to Calth, but the fact he does it by himself should speak volumes in my opinion.

[Olis]

 

 

I don't think they do leave Calth during the heresy do they? I thought the underground war went on for years.

 

Guilliman left Calth and almost 40,000 marines there. Those were the ones who fought in the Underground War.

I know. I was questioning whether those who fought the underground war got off of Calth during the heresy. I thought it went on for years. 

 

Ah, I see. Considering this conflict lasted for many years, it's unlikely that the combatants on Calth left in any significant numbers, if at all, before the Heresy itself ended.

[Remus Ventanus.]

 

 

I don't think they do leave Calth during the heresy do they? I thought the underground war went on for years.

In unremembered empire it stated that most of the marines had been rescued from calth i believe.

That was in reference to the Ultramarines that were a part of the fleet that Guilliman took from Calth. The ones on the sirface were trapped Underground for several years until the end of the Heresy if I recall correctly so while they fought the Underground War, they did not contribute to the Heresy at large.

 

Although somehow Aeonid Thiel was able to travel back to Calth, but the fact he does it by himself should speak volumes in my opinion.

 

I could have sworn it was about rescuing the surviviors. In dan abnetts upcoming novel dreadwing, he said Remus Ventanus would be in it, so he got off calth.

[Kol Saresk]

Maybe. I'm going off memory so it's possible I missed something or forgot it. Although it could very easily be relative to when Dreadwing is happening.

[Marshal Rohr]

Luther's Rebellion happens when the Lion returns to Caliban to gather the Calibanites to then go to Terra. Which is why the Dark Angels missed the Big Finish. 

 

 

 

Edit: Also, did any one else catch the Dark Angels were the second largest Legion behind the Ultras after losing 50,000 legionaries single-handedly keeping the far galactic north in Imperial Hands? That means at one point they had over 200,000 Legionaries too. Learn something new everyday.

 

 

Also, would this make them the 3rd largest legion behind the Ultras and Word Bearers?

[Remus Ventanus.]

Luther's Rebellion happens when the Lion returns to Caliban to gather the Calibanites to then go to Terra. Which is why the Dark Angels missed the Big Finish. 

 

 

 

Edit: Also, did any one else catch the Dark Angels were the second largest Legion behind the Ultras after losing 50,000 legionaries single-handedly keeping the far galactic north in Imperial Hands? That means at one point they had over 200,000 Legionaries too. Learn something new everyday.

 

 

Also, would this make them the 3rd largest legion behind the Ultras and Word Bearers?

I believe the betrayel at Caliban was after the Horus Heresy.

[Marshal Rohr]

Considering Black Library stopped giving a :cuss about Heresy stuff for the past two years and only now authors have started writing novels for it again, I'd say we are still a long way off from Dreadwing answering any questions.

[Dom_]

Well the end of Know No Fear is when it seems Ventanus leaves Calth and the Underworld War is over, at mark 220,000, or whatever. I worked it out to be 25 Terran Years by that point, way after the heresy.

[Remus Ventanus.]

Well the end of Know No Fear is when it seems Ventanus leaves Calth and the Underworld War is over, at mark 220,000, or whatever. I worked it out to be 25 Terran Years by that point, way after the heresy.

Thats isnt him leaving calth, that is him during the exterminatus of colchis

[Olis]

Considering Black Library stopped giving a about Heresy stuff for the past two years and only now authors have started writing novels for it again, I'd say we are still a long way off from Dreadwing answering any questions.

That's quite a cynical way of looking at it. The authors couldn't keep the same pace forever and a day. Think on how long the series has been going on for already. Several have other projects and obligations they need to attend to, so I wouldn't expect the rate of full on novels to stay at a particular level for the entire series. The fact that there are short stories to cover the gap is a good thing, I'd say, quality notwithstanding. I rather have the short stories than a proper 'fallow' period.

[Remus Ventanus.]

Would it be possible to get back on topic to talking about potential units for an ultramarine army? 

Thanks :)

 

Are breacher units worth it?

[Marshal Rohr]

With power swords and counter attack order? Yeh. That's 40 power weapon attacks receiving any charge. 20 if you go half and half.

[Remus Ventanus.]

With power swords and counter attack order? Yeh. That's 40 power weapon attacks receiving any charge. 20 if you go half and half.

So many choices!!

[Olis]

Would it be possible to get back on topic to talking about potential units for an ultramarine army?

Thanks

Are breacher units worth it?

My apologies, brother. We seem to have derailed quite badly there. As Marshal Rohr points out, Breachers with power swords and the Retribution Strike order can be quite fearful indeed. ^_^

[Marshal Rohr]

Ultras, Fists, and Hands have the best breachers in the game. Iron Hands and Imperial Fists are incredibly durable to shooting, and Ultras and Fists have the better combat bonuses. The Ultras are the only Legion that can make pure combat breachers with generic squads, and all three have close combat options for their elite breachers.

 

I was disappointed FW didn't heed my advice to alter the Breacher entry to start everyone with a CCW for reduced points, and add bolters for a price. This would've given all of us who wanna model a roman shield wall the option.

[Remus Ventanus.]

Ultras, Fists, and Hands have the best breachers in the game. Iron Hands and Imperial Fists are incredibly durable to shooting, and Ultras and Fists have the better combat bonuses. The Ultras are the only Legion that can make pure combat breachers with generic squads, and all three have close combat options for their elite breachers.

 

I was disappointed FW didn't heed my advice to alter the Breacher entry to start everyone with a CCW for reduced points, and add bolters for a price. This would've given all of us who wanna model a roman shield wall the option.

So the ultras breachers excel at Close combat?

[Blitzjager]

Guilliman in KNF had all of his sergeants paint there helmets red.  I'm going to be doing post-Calth Ultramarines. I will be modelling all of my sergeants with red helmets.  Veteran sergeants will have red with white stripe and no traverse crest.  Thoughts and/or Comments?

[depthcharge12]

Yeh, but the Ultra's losing 100,000 Legionaries in a battle that took a day or so? That's a little harsh on FW's part. I love Alan Bligh, but still, that's a little too harsh for my tastes. The Ultra's are supposed to be the 'cavalry' of the Heresy, riding in for a Charge of the Rohirrim epic save of the Fists, Angels, and Scars at Terra. If Ultra's are suddenly the equivalent size of The Sons of Horus after the replaced their Isstvan losses, then I don't see why Horus would even be all the afraid. The Dark Angels were down to around 50,000 post-Calibanite Schism, and the Space Wolves had the crap kicked out of them twice at Prospero and against the Alphas. Together they wouldn't have been able to threaten the combined 9 Traitor Legions who, according to Conquest, had begun massive accelerated recruiting to replace losses even faster.

 

 

I did appreciate the explanation why the UM Battle Barges and fleet is so :cuss in 40K, though. It was nice to be vindicated.

Uhm, not to be a jerk, but I'm gonna stop you right there. Yeah the Ultras were to be a big speedbump, but not the "cavalry" for the siege, that honor went to the Wolves and Dark Angels, and judging by the dwindling size of the wolves and their semi crippled fleet, it was essential just the Dark Angels Horus worried about.

 

I mean Guilliman was shaking in his boots about the threat the Dark Angels posed when they arrived at Macragge, this coming from the tactical genius that still had 100,000 or so marines under his command, and last I remember reading it, the DAs only had about 50,000 men with the Lion and the rest were with Corswain.

 

I am not disowning being a total fanboy in this respect, but there was something yet to be explained about the Dark Angels and the Lion that makes them so pants crappingly terrifying to both Guilliman and Horus - two noted generals both commanding large forces.

 

That said, I'm still reading Tempest, but Know No Fear made it seem that the Ultras made off with quite a bit of their force still intact, but Bobby G was still so shaken and trying to regroup to do something. I've heard that there's a darker part to Bobby in that the ultras who weren't at Calth he sort of despises. They weren't there and he feels they are still striding the nobility and high horsedness that was the Ultras before Calth. I don't think Guilliman has much of a part for the rest of the Heresy, however, it seems he gets his act together in rebuilding the Imperium and driving out the Heretics during the Scouring.

 

Kinda lends some credence to the Lion's paranoia that Guilliman was just sitting on the sidelines waiting to rebuild...

[depthcharge12]

 

 

Luther's Rebellion happens when the Lion returns to Caliban to gather the Calibanites to then go to Terra. Which is why the Dark Angels missed the Big Finish.

 

 

 

Edit: Also, did any one else catch the Dark Angels were the second largest Legion behind the Ultras after losing 50,000 legionaries single-handedly keeping the far galactic north in Imperial Hands? That means at one point they had over 200,000 Legionaries too. Learn something new everyday.

 

 

Also, would this make them the 3rd largest legion behind the Ultras and Word Bearers?

I believe the betrayel at Caliban was after the Horus Heresy.

Yes. I believe it was even after the Scouring was done too, which makes it a reaaaaaly long time for Caliban to go sour.

 

As for the Lion being tied up from reaching the siege, the past fluff made it sound like this was due to Russ wanting to stop and help every planet on the way to Terra.

 

For the Dark Angels being the third largest...it's definitely plausible due to them being around for so long and having a stable geneseed. Though I thought it was a toss up between the Sons of Horus, World Eaters, or hell the Alpha Legion (their shenanigans make it hard to pin down).

[Kol Saresk]

Guilliman in KNF had all of his sergeants paint there helmets red. I'm going to be doing post-Calth Ultramarines. I will be modelling all of my sergeants with red helmets. Veteran sergeants will have red with white stripe and no traverse crest. Thoughts and/or Comments?

That is somewhat inaccurate. In Know No Fear, Aeonid Thiel was the only sergeant with a red helm, and this is because he was being censured for developing theoretical tactics in fighting Space Marines.

[Kol Saresk]

 

 

 

Luther's Rebellion happens when the Lion returns to Caliban to gather the Calibanites to then go to Terra. Which is why the Dark Angels missed the Big Finish.

 

 

 

Edit: Also, did any one else catch the Dark Angels were the second largest Legion behind the Ultras after losing 50,000 legionaries single-handedly keeping the far galactic north in Imperial Hands? That means at one point they had over 200,000 Legionaries too. Learn something new everyday.

 

 

Also, would this make them the 3rd largest legion behind the Ultras and Word Bearers?

I believe the betrayel at Caliban was after the Horus Heresy.

Yes. I believe it was even after the Scouring was done too, which makes it a reaaaaaly long time for Caliban to go sour.

 

As for the Lion being tied up from reaching the siege, the past fluff made it sound like this was due to Russ wanting to stop and help every planet on the way to Terra.

 

For the Dark Angels being the third largest...it's definitely plausible due to them being around for so long and having a stable geneseed. Though I thought it was a toss up between the Sons of Horus, World Eaters, or hell the Alpha Legion (their shenanigans make it hard to pin down).

The problem we into with numbers is that they're all over the place.

 

For example, the Sons of Horus are around 170,000 strong. But at Istvaan III, they lose 60,000. And then they lose however many at Istvaan V.

 

Then you get the Night Lords. They have 90,000-120,000 at Istvaan V, with x still causing trouble in the Eastern Fringe. Then they lose a confirmed one-fifth, estimated one-fourth of "the fleet at Sheol". So what are their numbers now? (90,000+x)/4? Or is it (120,000+x)/5? Or could it be their numbers are now [(90,000/4)+x]-[(120,000/5)+x]?

 

Then you get the almighty I Legiones Astartes. ~50,000 at Macragge, y heading towards Caliban to seek reinforcements and z actually at Caliban, having been stockpiling for the last three years at least.

 

So as far numbers go, who knows?

[Blitzjager]

 

Guilliman in KNF had all of his sergeants paint there helmets red. I'm going to be doing post-Calth Ultramarines. I will be modelling all of my sergeants with red helmets. Veteran sergeants will have red with white stripe and no traverse crest. Thoughts and/or Comments?

That is somewhat inaccurate. In Know No Fear, Aeonid Thiel was the only sergeant with a red helm, and this is because he was being censured for developing theoretical tactics in fighting Space Marines.

 

Actually in KNF on page 351 of the paperback Guilliman himself says' "...Have squad leaders mark their helms in red." Red Helmuts are also on page 369 when Guilliman and a 50 man kills quad ready for teleport.