[HH1.0] 30k Ultramarines tactics

[Charlo]

Primarchs fighting Primarchs shouldn't happen until turn 6 (it the end) and then if the game ends you should always play out the fight to see what happens, maybe giving the winner and extra VP :P forge the narrative and all that.

 

Guilliman is a very good dualist though, surprisingly so.

[Ishagu]

Fulgrim won't win if he's concussed, did you take the power fist into consideration as the main weapon?

 

Regardless, I'll always include a Primarch in Heresy lists I make. I don't think there's enough unique aspects to the era if you omit them...

 

 

As for Horus winning in under 5 rounds, I'm afraid that's incorrect. He doesn't cause enough damage to do so. Guilliman can't win, but the fight takes longer.

Edited July 26, 2015 by Ishagu

[Slips]

Fulgrim won't win if he's concussed, did you take the power fist into consideration as the main weapon?

 

Regardless, I'll always include a Primarch in Heresy lists I make. I don't think there's enough unique aspects to the era if you omit them...

 

 

As for Horus winning in under 5 rounds, I'm afraid that's incorrect. He doesn't cause enough damage to do so. Guilliman can't win, but the fight takes longer.

The thing about horus is that he permanently reduces stats with successful wounds due to his Claw. So while that might not cause a LOT of damage, each successful wound makes RG weaker and Horus Stronger by comparison.

[Sanct]

Fulgrim won't win if he's concussed, did you take the power fist into consideration as the main weapon?

 

Regardless, I'll always include a Primarch in Heresy lists I make. I don't think there's enough unique aspects to the era if you omit them...

 

As for Horus winning in under 5 rounds, I'm afraid that's incorrect. He doesn't cause enough damage to do so. Guilliman can't win, but the fight takes longer.

 

Same reason as the 1d4chan did - the hand's concussion is too much of variable to calculate (in which round of calculations should you trigger it's effects?)

 

For Horus:

1 attack --> 0.667 hits --> 0.593 wounds --> 0.148 after the armour of reason with reroll

5 attacks -->3.333 hits --> 2.963 wounds --> 1.481 after the armour of reason without the reroll

That's 1.63 wounds per turn -->1.296 wounds after IWND

This suggests you should have reduced guilliman to 0 wounds on turn 5.  I said under 5 because you should be using weapon mastery to make 1 attack with worldbreaker for that marginally better rolling stat due to mastercrafting.

 

 

Enough mathhammer.  Back to strats!

[GreyCrow]

So, any more theoretical/practical insights since the last time ? Highly considering switching system to 30k and very curious about your Ultramarines insight :D

[Hesh Kadesh]

There are few new rules. It is highly unlikely. FW need to get back to releasing some periodic rules.

[GreyCrow]

How would you guys make the most out of the Logos Lectora ? I'm more and more interested about the Ultramarines Legion for 30k ! :)

 

So, it seems to value high quantities of Infantry and is quite inflexible as to its deployment and force organisation. So far, I can feel 2 ways of running it :

1) Infantry heavy in transports, with mobile support.

2) Infantry heavy on foot, with fixed support and barrage weapons.

 

It seems to value Dreadnoughts too, but I have trouble seeing their use with either type. Their great strength is that they are a vehicle Space Marine that's able to move with heavy weapons and swing fists at initiative, but I'm really not seeing them able to keep up with mechanized infantry (maybe Contemptors with Fleet ? But still...).

I also do have a feeling that it values a coherent, almost spammy support force in terms of unit types, further examplified by the Pretenatural Strategist of Roboute Guilliman. I also have a lot of trouble feeling hte Damocles Command Rhino in such a list, compared to the Master of Signal. It buffs Deep Strikers and Reserves but the Logos really tends to deincentivize reserves. It's really a weird choice, and its Bombardment is really weird too. It's very flexible in that it might take down a hull point on a Land Raider, but otherwise the Lance is a bit useless.

 

Regarding infantry on foot, how well have you played with non mechanized infantry ? What are your builds with it ? Can you expect to go through a battle hoping to fight out for the midfield with a non mechanized infantry and perform well ?

[Caillum]

You're interested in every Legion GreyCrow! :P So am I...

 

I don't like ruling things out, but The Logos Lectora is a bad Rite of War. You've hit the nail on the head with your assessment already.

 

You only get a single benefit to choose from, and it's nothing to write home about:

- re-roll Run dice is ok. Contemptors already have Fleet though, so it's a waste on them.

- BS2 Snap Shots is nice, but why are you getting charged? You want to combo-charge your enemy to capitalise on your Legion Traits.

- Counter-attack, again, requires being charged.

 

This comes at the special cost of FOUR restrictions to work through:

- compulsory MoS or Damocles is not too bad. As you said, Damocles doesn't get to utilise all it's benefits, as you can't Deep Strike anywhere, let alone near it. Maybe use the MoS to buff a Heavy Support Squad.

- extra compulsory Troops is not great, because points add up.

- no Deep Strike (or Infiltrate) removes some of the best Alpha Strike units from the game, like Dual-Graviton Contemptors in Dreadnought Drop Pods and Javelins. Dreadnoughts get "buffed", but getting them into your enemy lines on foot is not easy.

- AND all of your list-building must balance the number of Infantry units vs Tanks & Flyers, just to make it potentially difficult.

 

I would say it's ok if you got all 3 benefits every turn, as you could build a defensive army with Breachers and Invictarus Suzerains. Shame.

 

Why not focus on Guilliman's "Preternatural Strategy" rule, either with a RoW or not? Picking a unit mulitple times to get a benefit is pretty good! Tank Hunters on 3 Sicarans? Yes please!

Edited October 9, 2015 by Caillum

[GreyCrow]

Well, I'm not arguing whether the Logos is good or not, it is indeed VERY restrictive. But its bonuses apply to a Tactical squad/Infantry heavy force, where you very largely have these squads present

And it provides bonus to help out these squads against whatever army you might face : against a shooty enemy, full march. Against an assault enemy that will manage to get the drop on your special weapons squads : hold fast, etc.

 

It's really not a ROW for a Combined Arms approach but I was more interested in the theoretical beauty of it. I think I've cracked the code though by taking inspiration from the Codex Astartes

Here's the different things to keep in mind :

1) Like you said, it's very Troops Heavy, so you'll have a good middle board presence, at the expense of points you could have invested in your Alpha Striking. So, Troops should either be mobile or resilient enough, and support Troops should be able to be both mobile and ranged with an ability to engage both infantry and armour which you might encounter.

2) To capitalize on the bonuses of the Rite, you are going to want to have the ability to be both mobile and offensive as well as holding your ground, and destroy both tanks and infantry at these engagement ranges, so Fast moving Squads, and Fire Support Squads.

 

Overall, here's the idea I'm currently working on. The idea was to find a list that some people would play naturally, and that would incidentally fit the Logos :

1) 3 x 10 Tactical Marines, maybe in Rhinos (need to count the points)

2) 5 to 10 Plasma Support Marines (this is where the MOS will go), perhaps in Rhinos

3) 2 5 men heavy support squads, one with Volkite, one with Lascannons

4) 2 3 to 5 men Outrider squads (to get Outflank/scout due to lacking Deep Strike ), one with flamers, one with meltas.

5) Dreadnoughts + melee support to compliment

 

It's a bit expensive in terms of points, and seriously lacking melee punch, but Ultramarines are more of a shooty army with some melee units anyways. I'd love to be able to fit Terminators in that list though

 

EDIT : And yeah, I find all Legions interesting :D But I think it is because at heart, I want to be the master of all manners of warfare 

Edited October 7, 2015 by GreyCrow

[Terminus]

The Rite is bad and the Legion perks are mediocre. Their unique units are very nice, but without papa smurf on the table to make Invictarus troops, you're better off just playing Alpha Legion and stealing whichever unit you want.

[Ishagu]

The Rite is bad and the Legion perks are mediocre. Their unique units are very nice, but without papa smurf on the table to make Invictarus troops, you're better off just playing Alpha Legion and stealing whichever unit you want.

Pretty much this.

 

Imo, Guilliman is totally worth it for the expanded troop choices and unit perks (such as Tank hunters, Interceptor), not to mention having a Primarch in your list :-)

 

 

You're paying such a huge unit tax for the Logos, with very little tangible benefit.

[GreyCrow]

The Rite is bad and the Legion perks are mediocre. Their unique units are very nice, but without papa smurf on the table to make Invictarus troops, you're better off just playing Alpha Legion and stealing whichever unit you want.

 

I'm sorry, but you can't really say that the Rite is bad nor the Legion perks are mediocre :p On what absolute scale are you judging them good or bad ? Intrisiquely, what makes them good or bad ? :p And I'm not talking about them being better or worse than other Rites or Legion perks. Because that is a relative scale compared to a subjective assessment of what is good or bad. :)

 

it may be considered bad when compared with another Rite of War when you have a very specific framework of what you're trying to achieve with your army, in which case one might say it's preferential to take another Rite to achieve the purpose you have in mind.

[Hesh Kadesh]

You can Deep Strike allies however. Jetpack Thallax edtc. Can't remember if legionn allies are allowed though.

[Terminus]

You can take allies, but that would be dumb. The Rite and perks all depend on having as many Legion units as possible to benefit from them, otherwise you're paying this hefty penalty for special rules you can't use on allied forces.

 

 

The Rite is bad and the Legion perks are mediocre. Their unique units are very nice, but without papa smurf on the table to make Invictarus troops, you're better off just playing Alpha Legion and stealing whichever unit you want.

 

I'm sorry, but you can't really say that the Rite is bad nor the Legion perks are mediocre On what absolute scale are you judging them good or bad ? Intrisiquely, what makes them good or bad ? And I'm not talking about them being better or worse than other Rites or Legion perks. Because that is a relative scale compared to a subjective assessment of what is good or bad.

 

it may be considered bad when compared with another Rite of War when you have a very specific framework of what you're trying to achieve with your army, in which case one might say it's preferential to take another Rite to achieve the purpose you have in mind.

 

Yes, I can certainly say that and I just did. The Rite is bad because it gives very minor benefits for severe limitations in how you build your list. HQ tax, troop tax, can't use best deployment options, organizational restrictions, all for your choice of one mediocre buff per turn. If all three tactics were always available, or hell, if they even got the Combat Doctrines from their 40K brethren, it would have been a more interesting Rite of War. As it is, it's awful.

 

The perks are mediocre because they are neither terrible nor amazing, that's the definition of the word. Certainty and Resolve really amounts to a +1 to your leadership for regrouping (whoop-tee-doo). Lists that aim to capitalize on fear are extremely niche, and while you'll feel like rockstar against that army with three M'garl dreadnoughts, this benefit is not as universal as +1BS, or +1T, or being able to choose how long the game goes on, or infiltrate/fleet on all your infantry, or your choice of USR, etc. etc. So you get a very minor perk in exchange for taking a pinning test and giving up an extra victory point when your HQs bite it. The assault aspect of interlocking tactics I mostly disregard, the Ultramarine melee elements are quite potent and shouldn't require other units' assistance against their targets of choice, not to mention charging one enemy unit with multiple expensive units of your own is inefficient and puts your whole army in a nice clump for ranged bombardment. The shooting thing is actually pretty nice, since it gives your tactical squads something to do by tagging enemies for your heavier guns. One net positive with its own opportunity cost (maybe you had better targets for those bolters than that Land Raider or whatever) does not an amazing army make.

 

Really, I just don't understand your objection, nor all the "it's all, like, about your feelings, man" prattle. We have a concrete ruleset. Certain things perform better in that ruleset than others. The benefits of the Ultramarines aren't as functional as those of other Legions, therefore they aren't as good. Where's the confusion?

[Hesh Kadesh]

Scoring Deep Striking t5 2 wound models are dumb in an army which can't deep strike. Gotcha.

[Ishagu]

I'm in complete agreement with Terminus. I play a LOT of games, and none of the perks are sufficient reward for the unit tax and deployment and vehicle limitations.

[Terminus]

Scoring Deep Striking t5 2 wound models are dumb in an army which can't deep strike. Gotcha.

I agree with the sentiment but not the logic. You're forced to take an extra compulsory troop, and an extra compulsory HQ (a rhino-chassis tank), and then further forced to bring more foot-sloggers to unlock the more powerful vehicle options that can actually benefit from interlocking tactics (note this counts rhino transports too, so if you want your 3 tactical squads in rhinos, that means you are forced to buy a fourth infantry unit just to take the damocles rhino, and then have to take another infantry unit just to bring a scorpius or sicaran or something potent that could use the wound/penetration re-rolls).

 

So you have to spend this huge chunk of points on mandatory options that don't do a whole lot of killing but can buff the rest of the army, and then you spend the remainder of your points on allied faction options that also don't do a whole lot of killing and cannot benefit from any of the buffs you already paid for. Come on, man.

Edited October 8, 2015 by Terminus

[GreyCrow]

But Terminus, to what absolute standard are you comparing this Rite to qualify it as good or bad ? Like I said, you're subjectively judging it compared to what you're looking for in Rites/Legion perks. The definition of mediocre is : of an ordinary or undistinguished quality, so by the proper definition, it's not bad

 

First, with the Legion perks, you have 92% chances of successuflly passing a Fear or Regrouping test versus 83%, and that's always awesome when you're out of Banner range or when you've losts your banner. BS5 on Bolters ? Whoop de doo, the mandatory Master of Signal gives that to a unit, and that even can be on units with good firepower rather than simple bolter toters.

Infiltrate/Fleet on all your infantry ? Sure, that's good, except when you're facing an assault oriented army, and if all of your units are geared (as they should) towards Alpha Striking with closer range units, then you're toast if you fail to make a big enough dent.

 

On its own, Interlocking tactics is simply put awesome. An army wide micro preferred enemy on a unit you've already shot at is excellent. Shoot your target with high quality firepower that doesn't need to reroll to wound or penetrate, and enjoy your higher number of wounds. Example : Shoot Plasma Support Squads at infantry, and now all your Bolters wound MEQ with 75% chance rather than 50%. But, you're only considering the Tactical Squads tagging for the big guns rather than the opposite way around. I guess both could work, but in the Ultramarines tactics, you want to bring a very decent amount of bodies rather than purely qualitative firepower.

Example : 10 Plasma shots after "tagging" with BS4 = 6.48 wounds compared to 5.55 without tagging (16% increase)

20 Bolter Shots (rougly the same points cost as the 5 Plasma shots from above, even cheaper) after "tagging" with BS4 = 10 wounds compared to 6.667 without tagging (50% increase).

The charge bit is actually very awesome. By throwing in units that can actually make it into combat (hint : Contemptors with Fleet, Locutarus Storm Squads), you're ensuring the a successful charge for a unit that can actually do that damage (and in the case of the Dreadnoughts, you're actually also soaking up overwatch that could damage your charging squad ).

 

So, while they have less of the "Ooooh !" factor of other Legions Perks, their main strength is that they allow to ensure what you wanted to do, by having well geared support units buffing up a large number of support units. And ensuring your action in a game where randomness is a large factor is what makes them truly awesome.

 

The other strength with the Ultramarines Legion perks, is that they work regardless of what you're facing, and this is where it synergizes very well with the Logos. But while the Alpha Legion (who has a similar flexibility) is meant to provide that early game superiorirty for a very mobile army (due to Infiltrate vs gunline, Scout vs Infiltrators, Tank Hunters, Counter Attack and Adamantium Will versus their respective counters), the perks of the Logos provide bonuses to a primarily slow moving army with a good board presence (aka Infantry Heavy) that will use the "doctrine" it wants when it needs it. When needing to close in, Full March gives you 75% chance to run 4" or higher, giving your infantry units a 10" run. Now, pair that with any Rhino you might have bought, and suddently, in the first turn, your Tactical Squads can move a grand total of 16", which greatly reduces the need for Infiltrate when you're trying to reach a gunline

You say that it's not worth it to lose the ability to spam tanks, but the premise of that statement is false. Why would you want to spam tank if you took the Logos ? Might as well go for no ROW or Armoured Spearhead.

 

Then your statement about the doctrines made me chuckle a little. Nowhere in my book are BS2 Snap Shots bad, especially when you force the opponent to charge high ROF units like Plasma Support Squads or Volkite Heavy Support.  Or, I don't know, when many of your units are pinned, for example when you lose your HQs and fail the Pinning check :p

Or an armywide Counter Attack, I can't see how it can be any good :D

 

Besides, with the Logos, you are at least going to be able to field 5 tanks, due to you needing at least 2 HQ + 3 Troops choices, so that 2 tanks on top of any Rhinos or DT you might want to field for your Tactical Squads (knowing that you are limited to 3 Heavy Supports +1 LOW in any case). So, no, it's not limiting your Tank Selection too much It might feel that way, but when looking at the proper numerial implications, it's not that horrible.

I will agree that it prevents you from taking Tank Squadrons in large number in a mechanized force. But that's about it, really.

Edited October 8, 2015 by GreyCrow

[Terminus]

No one cares about Fear tests, they are super niche. If you are taking regrouping checks, chances are that unit is crippled already. Re-rolling 1s improves your chances of wounding to ~58% not 75%, please check your math.

 

Regarding the Logos perks, BS2 is the best and it's only okay. I've run my Alpha Legion as Dark Angels on occasion, where I can have BS3 overwatch across the board and it's only okay. I have much better success with tactical doctrines by running them as Codex marines, and I frequently face Orks and Tyranids who assault quite a bit. In 30K, you are 90% of the time going to be shot to death, or if you're assaulted, it's some Primarch/Terminator deathball of doom that isn't exactly nonplussed by an extra couple of S4 hits. What do you want to use: BS2 Overwatch or Counter-attack? They work towards the same purpose but you can only use one. Again, like I said before, if all the Logos abilities were active all the time, it may have been worth spamming power armour.

As it is, if you want to run Ultramarines, bring Guilliman, two units of Suzerain, and then focus on MSU to take max advantage of interlocking tactics. Take three Contemptors and make them scoring, take a bunch of Javelins and give them Tank Hunter.

[Caillum]

Alright guys, let's start this afresh. All of this discussion is subjective; that's the nature of these threads, so let's not get into that.

 

GreyCrow, no one wants Logos Lectora to suck, and it may be that it has some hidden uses that we haven't seen yet. But when you asked how people would run it, they responded with "Don't run it". No, that's not an answer to your question, but when nearly everyone in this thread agrees with that sentiment, you should at least consider that they may be onto something! :) Or at the very least, we haven't yet figured out a strong way to run it.

 

Don't get me wrong; I like the fact that you're thinking outside the box. It makes you a stronger player trying things that are different to the norm, and the best players will get a lot out of "sub-optimal" units or armies. But not every Rite of War or Legion is as strong as the others. With different rules for each, it's impossible for them to be perfectly balanced.

 

And your maths is out on a few examples above. A unit tagged with "Interlocking Tactics" increases the damage received by 16.667%. That's it.

 

Against Toughness 4:

- 10 hits from lascannons do 8.333 wounds. Re-roll the 1's and get another 1.389 wounds, an increase of 16.667%

- 10 hits from bolters do 5 wounds. Re-rolls the 1's and another 0.833 wounds, an increase of 16.667%

 

You'd be better off tagging with a weak unit (that doesn't need to have Legiones Astartes), like a Rhino's combi-bolter. Then you can smash it apart with a lascannon-equipped Heavy Support Squad (which does have Legiones Astartes), because they'll have no saves against the extra wounds caused.

 

But I'll play Devil's Advocate - I realised you can choose BS2 Snap Shots, not Overwatch. You could possibly use Volkite culverin squads to shoot down Flyers, making them multi-taskers.

 

Why don't you throw together a 2k list and give us some insight into how you'd run it? We can then use it as a base list to (hopefully) find a good way of running Logos Lectora!

[Hesh Kadesh]

Str6 doesn't fare well against legion flyers.

[Terminus]

A full squad of 10 (and realistically you would have 9 guns because you want that augury scanner for interceptor) will average 1 glance against the typical AV12 flyer and 1 glance and 1 pen against an AV11 flyer, before jinking saves.

[Hesh Kadesh]

I've found the Augury Scanner hit and miss, but then again, playing Drop Pods and Deathclaw based lists means that unless I'm up against Autocannon/Missile Launchers, there's no real danger. Technically Lascannons can do the same, as can Culverins, but even against open-topped pods, the main strength of a Volkite is killing infantry, and the main strength of the Drop Pod (aside from the massively increased deployment area) is that fact that it's got 12 points-per-hull-point, removing the threat of a Volkite Spam Squad. Sure, you're then open to a combination of firepower, and being in front of an enemy line, but that Volkite Squad cannot then shoot next turn, (bolt pistols don't count).

 

An 18" Interceptor is quite a large bubble, but intervening terrain means anything that's not barrage isn't really affected. If you want to be a real brute, put MoS with Quad Mortar batteries, because Barrage Interceptor 12 Shot S5 mortars makes a real mess of many a thing, or can slam home. They don't get the +1 BS, but if you really want to put the frighteners on something that's the way to do it.

 

I think your math might be slightly off?

 

36 shots with 9 nr 4 shot weapons = 36 shots, hitting on 5's is 12 hits, and glancing on 6's is two glances before jink, so you're selling yourself short their mate :). Unless you mean on a Support Squad, because that at least can score?

 

But still, force a jink for 1HP, or have it run with 2, it's still wasted its potential of roasting marines. That "opportunity cost" or "opportunity ability" to take down flyers is wasted on a Choomsquad, because that's 340pts that's not targeting Space Marines with their S6 Deflagrate. If the only target is a flyer, then you've either already won, because unless it's a Sons of Horus/Night Lord Dreadclaw or Angel's Wrath Storm Eagle (and who runs Air Cav that way?), it's not scoring, or your opponent's playing a blinder.

 

Admittedly, it's better than being useless, and has a better chance of being successful against an opponent who's not completely aware of what their units are doing, but like many have said, the niche is so niche, it's nigh worthless. It's also worth bearing in mind that the Interlocking Tactics only benefits in the shooting phase, not the enemy movement phase.

 

In regards to a Missile Squad;

 

9 Missiles, hitting on 5's is 3 hits, and 1.5 Glances

A Flakk missile is hitting on 3's, 6 hits, and glancing on 5's, so 2 glances. 

 

Admittedly, not a massive difference, and costs 50pts more, but if you can tag  that Flyer with something like an Quad Gun manned by a Recon Squad or a Vigilator, that ratio becomes better. 

[Terminus]

I was looking at a Support Squad with calivers. Culverins are sexy, but I don't waste HS on power armour dudes.

[GreyCrow]

Alright guys, let's start this afresh. All of this discussion is subjective; that's the nature of these threads, so let's not get into that.

 

GreyCrow, no one wants Logos Lectora to suck, and it may be that it has some hidden uses that we haven't seen yet. But when you asked how people would run it, they responded with "Don't run it". No, that's not an answer to your question, but when nearly everyone in this thread agrees with that sentiment, you should at least consider that they may be onto something! Or at the very least, we haven't yet figured out a strong way to run it.

 

Don't get me wrong; I like the fact that you're thinking outside the box. It makes you a stronger player trying things that are different to the norm, and the best players will get a lot out of "sub-optimal" units or armies. But not every Rite of War or Legion is as strong as the others. With different rules for each, it's impossible for them to be perfectly balanced.

 

And your maths is out on a few examples above. A unit tagged with "Interlocking Tactics" increases the damage received by 16.667%. That's it.

 

Against Toughness 4:

- 10 hits from lascannons do 8.333 wounds. Re-roll the 1's and get another 1.389 wounds, an increase of 16.667%

- 10 hits from bolters do 5 wounds. Re-rolls the 1's and another 0.833 wounds, an increase of 16.667%

 

You'd be better off tagging with a weak unit (that doesn't need to have Legiones Astartes), like a Rhino's combi-bolter. Then you can smash it apart with a lascannon-equipped Heavy Support Squad (which does have Legiones Astartes), because they'll have no saves against the extra wounds caused.

 

But I'll play Devil's Advocate - I realised you can choose BS2 Snap Shots, not Overwatch. You could possibly use Volkite culverin squads to shoot down Flyers, making them multi-taskers.

 

Why don't you throw together a 2k list and give us some insight into how you'd run it? We can then use it as a base list to (hopefully) find a good way of running Logos Lectora!

 

Oh, yeah, I understand that there are alternatives to the Logos. The question though was how to make it viable ;)

 

Thinking back to the Gladius Strike Force and the free transports going for an objective secured list, I'm wondering whether the goal of the Logos is just to spam scoring units and win with the mission rather than with the kill. Actually, the release of the Plastic Heresy kit helped put me in that direction (20 Tacticals, 5 Terminators, 1 Contemptors, 2 HQs)

 

So, rather than spending points on expensive killy units, the idea would be to spend points on board presence with Implacable advance. Either going mechanized, or using the tank support to ensure infantry superiority if you go footslogging infantry.

 

I'm just imagining something along the lines of 3 x 10 Tactical Squads, 2 x 5 support squads, 2 x 5 Cataphractii units, Suzerains as an escort for the Praetor maybe + Praetor + MOS + any support you fancy (Dreadnoughts, Tanks, Heavy Support, Apothecario, etc) as the core of the army (for smaller games).

So, that's 8 scoring units, all geared to take down other infantry and win through attrition. Once again, the goal not being to go for the kill, but to systematically prioritize any unit that would kill your infantry.

 

I don't have a list at hand, but what is the standard points level of the Horus Heresy Battles ? 2500 points ? 3000 points ? I could do a mock up with support elements whose goal is to ensure survivability of the units and ensure Troops superiority by having support units whose sole goal is to kill other infantry (and any transportation they might have).

____

 

So, yeah, while it lacks any artist feel to it or uniqueness and will have a very vanilla or almost "weak" feel to it, after witnessing the effectiveness of the Gladius in 40k Games, I've got a feeling it could work. Maximizing resilience over killing power and ganging up in a defensive manner versus the incoming threats thanks to the bonus of the Logos could be something that works.