[HH1.0] 30k Ultramarines tactics

[Hesh Kadesh]

I get that you are an eternal optimist, and I like that. It really makes me wish I was too. But honestly? Logos Lectura sucks. Like Black Reaving sucks. Like coils of the Hydra sucks. Like Stone Gauntlet sucks.

 

They look okay on paper (ooh rage on an multi assault?, fleet!/give me any elite unit to steal!/t5 terminators woth a 2+/3++), but the opportu n ity costs messes with a lists fine balance to the extent it cannot be salvaged.

 

The most important one is No Deep Strikes. The Reaping is similarly bad, but they have Shred Scoring Heavy Flamers and Overwatch with -1 toughness, which can also get torrent.

 

Pseudo fleet is pretty good. But that means you arent shooting. Ghess where UM get benefits shooting? Snap shot bs2? That movement thing? You are giving up run rerolls, for a unit or two to get 1 extra hit for every 6 shots when overwatching? Counter Attack. On a primarily shooting army. Again, give up movement for a single unit which got caught out of position to get +1 attack a model. So either a shooting unit, with poor melee, or a melee unit which should be charging anyway. Which you have to plan for a turn in advance.

 

In exchange for a Troop Tax, additionaly compulsory hq which doesn't actually add much (85pts for a one shot basilisk?), no deep strike, limited tanks, and benefits only infantry, on legion tactics which relies on easy to get rerolls such as those granted by rhino combi bolters. Oh, and no infiltrators either? Because there is no choice to deploy as normal infantry, your snipers must outflank.

 

So, your army consists of limited maneuverability infantry or expensive assault marines which don't really benefit, and only a single scouting unit allowed. You don't get easy access to your most fun legion rule with the same ease that a normal legion list does, and reasons reasons reason why it doesn't work.

[SkimaskMohawk]

The gladius works because it gives 200+ points of free stuff and gives another round of free twinlinked shooting (because ultras have the best trait) on top the objective secure. The sheer amount of free, OS transports you can drown your opponent in, paired with the msu squads and speeders makes it very hard for your opponent to even contest objectives. And this is before the grav starts flying. Compare this to your theory of spamming scoring units with the logos. Theres....8 of them in what would easily be an 1850 list, compared to the over 20 you can get with an 1850 Gladius. The Row doesn't seem to make your gladius-esq list any more viable and you should probably just stick with guilliman I am want to do that

[Ishagu]

The 40k battle company is completely different from the Logos.

Yes, you could argue that both work on the principle of flooding the board with scoring units.

 

This doesn't work at all for the Logos as the 40k company excells in this regard by spamming MSU and transports.

 

The Logos buffs are poor when you think that you're actually nerfing the ease of use of Interlocking tactics. This rule is best utilised by having multiple infantry squad in cheap transports. They disembark, the Rhino shoots at a unit, the Marines are buffed when targeting the same unit. Utilising this alone, with the support of ranged tanks and dreads like the Sicaran and Deredeo is how the Ultras can be played more effectively... and fluffy!

Edited October 27, 2015 by Ishagu

[GreyCrow]

@Hesh : It's not about being an eternal optimist, it's about solving problems It's one of my pass times, tee hee !

 

I agree when you say it messess with a list's fine balance. However, I don't believe that when you take a ROW such as the Logos or the Reaving you're looking at balanced/TAC lists. I feel it's more a case of "pick a direction and go full rambo on it".

 

Regarding the bonuses, I tend to look at them with the framework of the comparative advantages in mind. Full March is good against a gunline army, you're not really wanting to hold back and cautiously advance : you might want to get Tactical Squads right up the face of the enemy to lose one turn of taking his shooting, especially in Rhinos (6"+6"+ an average of 4 to 5 inches on the run means you move as fast as Assault Squads for one turn, albeit not ignoring terrain). But where it shines imho is ensuring that your scoring units get to the place they need to be.

For Hold Fast, I agree with you that the overwatch bonus is marginally interesting. To me, it's probably the least interesting of the 3, except when we count Interceptor Snap Shots against fliers from heavy support/support squads, as well as the fact that eventually one or several of your squads might Fall Back (and Rally) so will be snap shooting. So, doubling the output of firepower of broken squads is a good bonus imho.

Retribution Strike is obviously good when you're holding objectives and are about to get charged. It won't allow you to kill an assault unit, but it will probably slow it down and make it easier for other units to finish it off.

 

I don't see the Troop as a "tax", because like I said on a previous page, I don't think you build around the Logos. But it's going to work for armies that are already Troops heavy. See my reply to Skimask below.

 

Once again, it's not much for killing power, but for ensuring that your unremarkable units perform better than the enemy's

 

By the way, to go along my reply to Skimask, would you be kind enough to point me towards the lists you usually go for at 2500 or 3000 points ? Either by MP or linking a thread

 

@Skimask : Oh yeah, the Gladius and the 350 to 500 points of free transports with Objective Secured will work much, much better than the Logos Lectora for sure ! I was looking at the Logos in purely a 30k vs 30k scenario. In most of the lists I see posted here, I tend to see no more than 4 scoring units at 2500-3000 points. And usually it's the min number of 2 units so that points are free to include the more exotic choices.

So, with 8 scoring units at 1850 points (roughly the cost of the core units I've shown earlier), that core doubles the number of scoring units of lists almost twice the size, and that is without support ^^ So, the strategy is going to be to kill off all his scoring units while not letting all of yours be killed (not in a burst damage like the Raven Guard can, but over the course of the battle).

 

Same as for Hesh, if you could MP a list I'd be very appreciative !

 

@Ishagu : The Rhinos do synergize very well with both the Logos + Interlocking Tactics for sure, because providing a metal box for the Tacticals actually make them last longer But if you don't field any Rhinos, you can use Predators/Whirlwinds or like the Thudd Guns to proc the Interlocking Tactics too. If your guys are on foot (and that is very theoretical for the moment), you have a large allowance of Tanks if you have a large amount of units

Obviously, like I said to Skimask, the Battle Co will do things better, but if I play 30k I'm probably not going to play against 40k armies except for fun, and certainly not at 2500 points.

 

The great point with Ultramarines is that you can go for so many builds !

 

If you could point to your list too, that'd be great.

 

EDIT : Out of curiosity, I posted a 3k points list here : http://www.bolterandchainsword.com/topic/315371-ultarmarines-logos-3000-points/

 

The Primarch and Contemptors are probably the weaker links of this army, but I like their flexibility ! I could probably drop the Volkite Charger on the Praetor and put the Mantle of Ultramar on him, because why not.

Edited October 27, 2015 by GreyCrow

[SkimaskMohawk]

Even with the relative lack of scoring units in most lists, one of the big differences is that you can contest with almost anything, while against the gladius only a select few units can contest.

 

As to your statement about the Logos and Reaping not being TAC and being very focused instead, you're right about this. However, when we look at RoWs we often compare them to other ones; the extremely situational RoW that you need to build 100% around that offers marginal benefits, or the RoW that is much more flexible and offers better bonuses. That's why people say it sucks, because you can look at other Legions and see a RoW that can be used in a variety of ways.

Edited October 27, 2015 by SkimaskMohawk

[GreyCrow]

Even with the relative lack of scoring units in most lists, one of the big differences is that you can contest with almost anything, while against the gladius only a select few units can contest

 

Ah, so you would be able to contest scoring Troops then ? Yeah, that changes things.

[SkimaskMohawk]

Yeah you can only score with troops, but you can still contest with non-scoring

[GreyCrow]

Hmm, but that also means that I can contest with the Troops, right ? So, in that case, the entire army is both scoring and contesting at the same time, which is an advantage versus armies that don't really have much scoring units.

[Slips]

Actually troops are scoring only everything else is contesting.

 

Meaning troops vs troops on an obj = no cap

Troops vs anything else = no cap

Impacable advance + troops vs anything else = implacable cap

[GreyCrow]

Actually troops are scoring only everything else is contesting.

 

Meaning troops vs troops on an obj = no cap

Troops vs anything else = no cap

Impacable advance + troops vs anything else = implacable cap

 

Where do you get that ? I thought Implacable advance only made the unit scoring (hence going back to the first scenario I described).

 

What the rules in the Tempest book say are akin to your scenario :

1) Troops within 3" of objective : cap

2) Denial within 3" of objective : no cap

3) Troops vs Troops and Troops vs Denial : no cap

 

So the idea with that Troops/Implacable Advance heavy list would be to just ensure that I can deny the opponent's scoring by just being within 3", and make sure none of his denial units could be within 3" of my objectives. Due to having a sizeable amount of bodies, I imagine it would be easy to bubble wrap objectives by the end game and block charges.

Edited October 27, 2015 by GreyCrow

[Slips]

Implacable advance makes you scoring. Being in the troops slot makes you scoring.

 

Having Tac Vet troops have them have both. Logical conclusion is that they're super-scoring. Ill dig for more info on this when Im not on my phone.

 

Thats what i meant by Implacable + troops.

 

Not an implacable unit beside a troops unit.

[SkimaskMohawk]

No, not at all. Implacable advance gives OS if you're playing vs 40k, but otherwise score in the same way as troops. There's no "mega scoring" in 30k

[GreyCrow]

Cool new avatar Skimask :D

 

Has anyone tried the Fulmentarus Strike Squad with Cyclone Missiles in an infantry heavy list ? I was thinking that a squad of 10 with Cyclones and Power Fists (to deter charging) could work quite nicely. Pricey (at 750 points per squad) but quite damaging and scary.

[Slips]

I'd stick with the Power Maces to keep cost down.

 

With CML + Combi-Bolter (which, if they're like the Tyrants they can shoot both), Power Mauls should be the least of their Worries since they'll be eating Missiles and Bolts for days before they get to charge.

 

And with a full squad having -1 Cover, Tankhunters and Night Vision, iirc, if they're not hopping out of a Spartan to assault them, they're probably dead and gone by the time they get close enough.

 

And if its Fearless Levy Squads? 20 Frag Missiles and Combi-Bolters say "Hi!"

Edited November 4, 2015 by Slipstreams

[GreyCrow]

I'd stick with the Power Maces to keep cost down.

 

With CML + Combi-Bolter (which, if they're like the Tyrants they can shoot both), Power Mauls should be the least of their Worries since they'll be eating Missiles and Bolts for days before they get to charge.

 

And with a full squad having -1 Cover, Tankhunters and Night Vision, iirc, if they're not hopping out of a Spartan to assault them, they're probably dead and gone by the time they get close enough.

 

And if its Fearless Levy Squads? 20 Frag Missiles and Combi-Bolters say "Hi!"

 

My logic with the fists was that for 50 points it's only a 7% increase in price for a full unit, so might as well go for it at 3000 points. To act as a melee deterrent and to give them good AP2 when fighting for the middle ground :) I agree with you thought that it's not a core upgrade for their function, but if you have the points to spare might as well.

 

So, do you think that the Frag Missiles are better than the Krak Missiles when shooting at large blobs of Marines ? (I imagine that they are if they are bunched up) I always go for the AP3 when firing Missile Launchers, but once again, I haven't shot 20 Krak Missiles at a single squad yet :p

[Slips]

Vs Breachers who can re-roll failed armor vs Blasts/Templates? No.

 

Vs Marines without an Apothecary/Iron Hands, Maybe. Depends on dispersal.

 

Vs Marines with an Apothecary always fire Krakk to deny FNP

[GreyCrow]

Good points, good points !

[Captain Idaho]

I considered opening another thread but thought we could perhaps continue to use this one.

 

What do people make of our Legion specific units?

 

I thought the Terminator Fulmentarus squad is a little over priced for the firepower it brings. 20 missiles is a lot, but so is the points value.

 

The Invictarus Suzerain squad screams quality to me.

 

But the other options? Like the beachers with power swords?

[Ishagu]

The Invictarus Suzerain are an auto include for me. A fantastic combat unit that doesn't have the bulky rule or inability to sweeping advance unlike Terminators. Truly the perfect bodyguards for the great man himself.

The Breachers with swords aren't worth it for me, the point difference between them and a full squad of the Suzerains doesn't warrant the drop in performance.

 

The Fulmentarus Terminators are quite interesting, and they'd fill the niche of being both impressive in ranged shooting and combat if equipped with decent power weapons... but the cost is very high and they take up a highly competitive heavy support slot. I feel you can get similar ranged results from Rapier Quad Mortars.

 

I think another interesting unit is the Locutarus Storm Squad. These guys are basically the same as the 40k Sanguinary Guard which I rather like - Power weapons on each man and a 2+ save. The deepstriking bonuses are nice but the option is there for these decent jump Marines to start on the board.

 

A strong case can be made for Regular Cataphractii as we can take them as troops alongside the Primarch. I'd definitely invest in some combi-weapons, however.

Edited November 11, 2015 by Ishagu

[Charlo]

Yeah, in a 30k environment, Girlyman's Suzie Squad us pretty Damn ace. Like Ishagu said, non bulky and ability to sweeping advance I'd huge in the setting and ap2 at initiative is just brutal.

 

I think with the missile terms you're really paying for thier special rules and mobility, and they're pretty amazing, each terminator essentially being like "tougher" land Speeder!

 

Didn't realise loctarus was ALL power weapons and 2+ save. Theyre not bad, and you can always double tap some plasma on the way in :)

[Captain Idaho]

I liked the look of the Locutarus Storm Squads in an assault heavy army. Having Legion blob squads and even footslogging Cataphracti means they aren't an easy target to choose.

 

Yeah that Terminator squad seems too expensive even for fun games. After all, fun games include lots of fun things that you just can't get with such costs.

[Hesh Kadesh]

5 Terms, with Combi meltas. Tl Tank Hunting combi meltas.

 

Kills armour, then mops up with Pfists or Swords.

 

Full rocket vomit is about 150pts more expensive than Tyrants.

Edited November 11, 2015 by Hesh Kadesh

[Ishagu]

I could get behind the Fulmentarus Terminators if they weren't a heavy support. That slot is far too competitive and I wouldn't drop Sicarans, Deredeos or Vindicator Laser Destroyers for them in any situation.

 

That's their biggest weakness, not necessarily the cost.

[Captain Idaho]

Shame about the Breachers being substandard.

[Ishagu]

I always had an interest in Destroyer Squads however they need an adjustment in points to be viable.

 

Forgeworld will be addressing some units in upcoming books and altering points to make them more appealing.