Skitarii and Mechanicum HARD DATA review

[abraxus]

I think of Ballastari as more anti-aircraft/anti-invis due to them firing at BS 2 when snap-shooting and being twin-linked.  Allows my 'crawlers to focus on neutrons or standard weapons (especially in a war convocation).  That gives me anti-air that is still effective against everything else.  Plus Str 7 is still nice for popping light transports so your arc can focus on the big AV threats.

[mmimzie]

Hmmm I don't like the radium in the dragoons. Or I should say I wasn't. They do a decent job against MCs as they pretty much would everything on a 3+. Plus each one can get a phospher. Problem is you don't have any AP and your not really throwing a bucket of dice that the vanguard would. They probably rip through jet bikes, marines, and MCs with 3+ armor or worse. The gun works in the formation because your oppent has no choice but to take very devasting hit from 2 units of about 3. (Edit: oh to also express the weapons true power is really the 6s to wound wound twice at Ap2. )

 

If your taking the formation the Lance's aren't worth because if they come in turn 2 or 3 the Lance isn't gonna get enough mileage. The Lance dragoon are like warhammer fantasy night of like 5th edition where your set them on one corner of the table. The enemy gets 1 turn of shooting to remove them before they start charging every turn and pretty much killing a unit per turn.

 

The balistarii are okay... There weird?? Great AA. Enough to make them think. The upgrade isn't worth it as it makes them too expensive for only half the shots. They do very well at popping transports.

 

As far as how much to bring. One of each is great if you want a force that came take objectives aggressively and inexpensively. Taking units of of 3 or more can still take objectives, but can let you do some very aggressive things to enemy units not prepared to take a broadside. ThTh e benefit of the formation is that your ballistari get cover from your dragoons. So both will always have a 5+ cover or better(for the most part)

 

 

TLDR:

Dragoons in formation only radium, Lance's if deployed on the board.

Ballistari only auto cannon as the other weapon is too expensive.

formation: Min squad to score objectives. 3+ squad to devastate targets.

[MoGuy]

 

 

If your taking the formation the Lance's aren't worth because if they come in turn 2 or 3 the Lance isn't gonna get enough mileage.

 

Nah, they will be nasty. If they come in on turn 2 or 3 they will shift to support since the enemy's units will have advanced further etc. If they come in on turn 1 and stand in the backline they are already doing a decent job. Your opponent now has to respond to their threat and might even split up his army to take them on. He will probably try to get his transports out of their charge range, which will displace them and slow them down. If he uses a squad with grenades to charge, he might kill a Dragoon but will have displaced a unit (or even worse: he took a CC unit out of their transport to take care of a Dragoon which would leave them in the open and further behind). Meanwhile my Ruststalkers and Infiltrators will create another threat from the front. Now his dedicated CC units would have to spread out from his backside to the frontlines which will probably screw with his plans. Most armies won't even have that many dedicated CC units to take care of all those threats. 

 

I think the formation - taken at minimum capacity of 2x1 Dragoons and 1x Ironstrider - is a nice threat and distraction for the enemy which will hurt him no matter what. Either he wastes shots at 45/35 point-models, displaces his units to get away from them (or towards) or he ignores them and they will kill his transports or shooty units. The more Dragoons/Ironstriders we add, the bigger the threat will be and the more hurt the formation will bring. However the more models we use, the more points we will dump into said formation, thus leaving a lot of our points/army in the backline and very close to our opponent which can be used against us. 

 

All in all I'll just give it a shot. Ironstriders might be decent AA units but we don't really need them for that as we can just use an Icarus Onager or Breachers with the Dominus + the "Snapshots at BS2" artefact. 

 

I also don't really understand why very few people here seem to appreciate the Lance Dragoon. He is one of the very few options we have for CC units and the alternatives (Sicarians and maybe Kastelans) are REALLY expensive. We don't need another shooty unit when we already have so much potent firepower. I don't see what a Jazzail Dragoon would add that our other shooty units don't already bring to the table. 

 

Thank you guys for your input! I really appreciate it (even if I might not agree with all of it). :) I'll buy an Ironstrider and once I have gathered sufficient Data on his use and the formation, I will report my findings.

[mmimzie]

Lance dragoons are great. I think I even compared them to the greatest units in warhammer fantasy. They go on a skill spree that once started won't be stopped.

 

The problem with them in the formation. Is that you could very easily do the same amount of threat, more reliably just deploying them on the board if you give them Lances. Your enemy will always get a turn to shoot them up.

 

The Lance's loose effectiveness as the game wares on because they make thier points back by claiming the table and killing units. They can get in enemy units face from your own board edge as they have scout and move 9" a turn. They loose this by maybe not being on the board or by coming on the wrong side. You give thier sure fire strong of pressure for the chance of a golden position. The Lance's on out flank limit them as they can just send up useless. Where as on the board they will atleast always provide pressure. either way they will always be targetable by your for before you get to charge.

 

Now the radium they want to do damage. They don't give pressure. Scouting and moving up gives your dragoons little or no benefit when they have the rad guns. Also, while on the table they can get shot down, with out also preasuring the table or giving you anything before thier demise. But out flanking they can alpha strike puting out atleast 2 ap2 wound a plus a handful of other wounds. This guys can strike first with guns, so being on the table they can lose the chance to shoot before they start falling. If they are in out flank they always get to make it rain.

[Trokair]

Played another game, this time against Chaos Space Marines.

 

My opponent had not played in a few years so his army was a bit outdated, he also had some very bad luck with dice. I tabled him bottom of turn 4 but he had lost most of his stuff by bottom of turn 2.

 

Once again I never had opportunity or need to use the IWND roll on the Cohort Cybernetic.

 

I had the cognis relic but the Techprist got sniped by a lascannon (failed look out sir and 4++) in the shooting phase before terminators, raptors and berserkers all charged the Cohort. Still got a disproportionate high number of hits (Protector Protocol) on overwatch and the berserkers where reduced to one.

 

Breaches continue to disappoint, 4 turns shooting, 3 hull points taken of a single Land Raider and that’s it.

 

Destroyers in the same time killed 23 marines despite shooting into cover every single time.

 

Vanguard did one turn of shooting and died, rangers did four turns of shooting and took out one plasma gun, one missile launcher, 5 random marines and a rhino. 

[MoGuy]

If you played the Cohort Cybernetica, the Dominus would have had Toughness 7 as that would have been the majority value (I have looked it up in the rulebook and it says that this even applies, when there is an even number. So e.g. two Datasmiths with two Kastelans would still have T7 from the Robots), thus he would have lost only 1 wound. Or was he already down to 1 wound and the Lascannon just finished him off?

 

I am also very fond of the Destroyers! Did you use the Plasma or the Grav Destroyers? 

 

Did the Vanguard at least kill some stuff with their shooting? They are a bit of a suicide unit, since they have to get so close to shoot at stuff which often leaves them in the range of many enemy units who will just blow them up. I haven't played against Marines yet so I am not sure how the Vanguards would perform. 

[DeStinyFiSh]

If you played the Cohort Cybernetica, the Dominus would have had Toughness 7 as that would have been the majority value (I have looked it up in the rulebook and it says that this even applies, when there is an even number. So e.g. two Datasmiths with two Kastelans would still have T7 from the Robots), thus he would have lost only 1 wound. Or was he already down to 1 wound and the Lascannon just finished him off?

 

 

I think you have T7 when it comes to roll for wounds, but when the wound goes through the base T of the Domi is still 4 and he gets insta killed by the laser... at least thats the way I played it last time, but I am no expert when it comes to rules.

[Trokair]

I am with DeStinyFiSh in terms of how I think the rules work namely the Techpriest (in the Cohort) is toughness 7 when rolling to wound, however he is only toughness 4 when Instant Death looks at the failed save.  If not then there are several Krack Missile and a Multimelta shots that should not have squished my Techprists on the first hit. I seem to only fail my look out and my 4/5++ when wounded by one of them. The rest of the time they tank everything.

 

The vanguard killed six marines, would have killed more but could not see the remaining four. They were charged (11 inch charge!), killed one in overwatch, lost combat and where caught.

 

Used Grav Destroyes, they have been so good so far but I am thinking of trying plasma for the next few games to see how that compares.

[MoGuy]

Plasma always worked for me. My Dominus patched them up if they burned themselves and in the shooting phase a min squad of 3 Destroyers rains down 6 templates. Even with BS3 those are enough templates to hit what you want at least once. I like fielding 6 Plasma Destroyers with the Dominus and the IWND Artefact. They dish out an absurd amount of hurt! 6 Phosphor shots will most of the times lower the coversave and then the 12 templates will just annihilate whatever they are fired at. 

 

Plasma also works better against hordes since they have :cussty armour and the templates will hit a whole bunch if the models are standing together to get into cover. A buddy of mine absolutely hates them because he plays Orks and my Destroyers blow up a Squad every time they shoot. They are also pretty good at killing transports.

[mmimzie]

Yes install death applys if the model itself is doubled out the regardless of the majority toughness of the unit. Majority toughness is just for to wound rolls against the unit.

[Terminus]

I find plasma cannons in general underwhelming. A small blast just simply isn't what it used to be, especially with everything getting bigger and bigger bases. Mechanically, it ends up being a plasma gun with a longer range.

[MajorNese]

I find plasma cannons in general underwhelming. A small blast just simply isn't what it used to be, especially with everything getting bigger and bigger bases. Mechanically, it ends up being a plasma gun with a longer range.

Hmm, the plasmas always worked for me, just the not-that-great range was unhealthy for the destroyers. Bigger bases at least means it's harder to miss with a template, at BS3 single shots wouldn't be that reliable. And the sheer number of templates will decimate everything besides MC/GC, not relying on a good armour save of the target, like grav.

[MagicHat]

I find that plasma works wonder against beginner-middling players that doesn't understand how to properly spread out their forces, but doesn't work that well against the more experienced ones. 

However, I would never field a force that didn't have some kind of threatening blast weapon, just to force the way my opponent moves their troops. 

 

This is from a mainly Skitarii players perspective though.

I have Vanguards and Rangers to take down hordes, and what they lack is the ability to reach out and touch the annoying riptides and their like. Grav serves my army better then plasma ever could, but I have recently thought about taking 2 grav and 1 plasma in a unit, partly to make it a bit more fair and partly to spread out my blast threats. 

[MoGuy]

 

 

I have Vanguards and Rangers to take down hordes

 

But you won't take Grav against hordes, so you take Plasma. And suddenly that Boss Mob is wiped off the table. Just try the Plasma Destroyers guys. Give them some love too, they deserve it! :) Ofc Grav will be better against armies with good armour saves but against other stuff the Plasma Destroyers just rock! They are also pretty decent at taking down vehicles.

[MagicHat]

 

 

Just try the Plasma Destroyers guys. Give them some love too, they deserve it! 

 

 

Now, I have tried them. Against their favoured enemy as well, foot SM led by a beginner that kept bunching them up. And I will willingly say that they should have wiped out about 500 points by them-self, had it not been for my "atrocious" dice rolls. (They still took down a Rhino, a tactical squad and most of a terminator unit). Even then, grav would not have done a lot worse, and in every other game I played with them, I cursed myself for not bringing grav.  

 

 

 

But you won't take Grav against hordes, so you take Plasma. And suddenly that Boss Mob is wiped off the table. 

 

 

I don't practice the dark arts of list-tailoring, for a variety of reasons. My army will be TAC, and grav is more TAC then plasma. That said, there is only one player at the club that can/will bring an entire army of infantry. Against any other army, there will be targets, and even 4+ save aren't all that bad for grav if it is something expensive, like nobs.

 

 

They are also pretty decent at taking down vehicles.

 

 

Plasma can do things against AV10-11 somewhat reliably. Against AV12-13 they just don't stand that good a chance. Grav meanwhile stand a good chance of immobilizing/wrecking any vehicle with 3HP. They can even do AA in a pinch.

 

Your reasoning does not sway me in this particular case.

[MoGuy]

and in every other game I played with them, I cursed myself for not bringing grav.

So in a nutshell: Plasma is worthless, never take it, it will most likely perform way worse than Grav.

I don't practice the dark arts of list-tailoring, for a variety of reasons

After a certain amount of time one just knows what armies the people in their group play. Why would I take Grav against an Ork Player when most of his stuff will just have t-shirt saves? We know who plays what army and thus it is almost impossible to not "list-tailor" one's army. Nobody would take units that he knows will perform not well just to claim he brought a TAC list. I try to stick with a theme or idea for my lists, independent of whom I'll play. I'll soon try out a CC oriented list where an Inquisitor will join a Squad of Infiltrators. Still, I want people to bring a strong list against my army (without getting too cheesy).

[MagicHat]

So in a nutshell: Plasma is worthless, never take it, it most likely perform way worse than Grav.

Hardly worthless. Only game where it did nothing were against necron. It is just that grav will most of the time do better/more important stuff.

As mentioned, I will try units with 2 grav and 1 plasma and see what happens, although might be some time before that happens.

EDIT: I also encourage you to keep trying plasma kataphrons yourself. My reports are just a sample, and the hypothesis that grav are superior should be tested properly. I also think it has a place in a pure CM army.

After a certain amount of time one just knows what armies the people in their group play. Why would I take Grav against an Ork Player when most of his stuff will just have t-shirt saves? We know who plays what army and thus it is almost impossible to not "list-tailor" one's army. Nobody would take units that he knows will perform not well just to claim he brought a TAC list. I try to stick with a theme or idea for my lists, independent of whom I'll play. I'll soon try out a CC oriented list where an Inquisitor will join a Squad of Infiltrators. Still, I want people to bring a strong list against my army (without getting too cheesy).

Hehe. A sisters player challenged an ork guy that usually brings no vehicles, and then packed in as many flamers as possible. The Ork player brought his newly purchased Kan/dread list. Much hilarity was had.

And you say it yourself, most of the opposition may have a 6+ save. Target the stuff that isn't. My grav will go after the battlewagons, or walkers, or bikes or whatever. If they really brings an entire army of 6+ save, then that is their impending loss.

When I build a list, I do it as if I was going to play in one of our club tournaments (usually 3 matches), and thus TAC. Doesn't mean there wont be variations, I can bring vengeance batteries or a redoubt, onagers, Dominus maniple or CM allies and so on. Always brings some form of AA, even if I know the opponent does not bring anything I can use skyfire against, because that is what might happen in a tournament. I just need to figure out how to best use it in those circumstances. There are more reasons, but those are the ones that are relevant to this thread.

[mmimzie]

Onl list tailoring. It's easy not to list tailor if you make 3-4 list at various points ranges, and just play who every walks in the door with said list.

 

On plasma kataphrons.... Hmmmm they do really well actually.... Just the targets you can shoot at are all other none threatening. If you shoot your plasma at T-shirt boys your 200 point unit is shoot at his 100 point unit. So, your gonna have some cost effectiveness issues. On top of this 3 plus plasma cavaliers shooting the same unit will very often be over kill.

 

As such I propose 2grav/1plasma, 2/2, or 3/2 units if your enemy has a bunch of T-shirts dudes oddas are your grav won't have good targets. So may as well rope them in. Otherwise the plasma is pretty good against armor And 2+ save stuff.. Only place you loose out is with some MCs, but even then grav can be hit or miss in this department as well.

 

I also like the idea because if your going against something that fears your grav, they'll just target down your grav. If your going against something that is afraid of your plasma they focus fire your plasma. If you split it then your oppent has to kill some of what he doesn't to get at what he does want to kill.

[Terminus]

I find that plasma works wonder against beginner-middling players that doesn't understand how to properly spread out their forces, but doesn't work that well against the more experienced ones.

This. Also, I love the argument that brings up Orks. Seriously, Orks?

 

But sure, occasionally you come up against giant swarms, which is why my destroyers come with flamers, so if I do come across stuff that laughs off grav cannons due to T-shirts, I just incinerate all of them.

 

I like the extra 6" of range from the grav cannons, too.

[Dread0]

Has anyone had any experience with the Uncreator Gauntlet? I'm going up against a Brass Scorpion soon so I thought of attaching a Tech Priest to a unit of Assault Centurions with Marneus Calgar as a tank. They are pretty much a suicide squad so I'm not expecting them to survive long but to hopefully do enough damage to kill the Scorpion or at least make it think about what it needs to charge next.

 

The Uncreator Gauntlet seems a bit like the Trans Arc IMO, reliant on luck a bit too much, also it can actually heal the enemy on the roll of a 1. 

 

Anyone used this before that can give me an idea of if it is worth taking or not?

[MajorNese]

I haven't used it, but isn't the dataspike pretty much a hullpoints grave? One attack at I10, and the regular 5 (3 profile, second CCW, charge) attacks using it would do quite a dent to that thing.

[Dawnstrider]

I saw the uncreator gauntlet restore a knight from 1hp to 6 a few weeks ago. It was glorious!

[mmimzie]

Uncreator is a healing tool and not a weapon. As far as usefullness goes.

 

Data spike spike does stripping hull pointa better.

[Dread0]

What would you guys suggest then? IWND centurions or re-roll pens?

[DeStinyFiSh]

I think Ruststalkers can be very good if they get into combat !

Give the Ürinceps the dataspike and the Omniscience Mask. This way you can throw 1 Haywire grenade, 4 Haywire attacks with the normal stalkers and 5 Haywire attacks with the Princeps, hitting on 3s with rerolling 1s because of the Mask.