Skitarii and Mechanicum HARD DATA review

[Tiger9gamer]

As fate decrees, I too fought against those dreaded Eldar today. So let me hit you with some Data too!

looks like you had a much better time then I, so congratz on your victory! I think I gotta get away from the rhino spam something fierce personally... And maybe include an assassin or something.

Also happy 2,000th post to me

[DeStinyFiSh]

...(who healed their wounds etc. Question: Can the Dominus heal himself on a 2+?) ...

He is like Bob the Builder, he can fix everything including himself

[Dread0]

 

...(who healed their wounds etc. Question: Can the Dominus heal himself on a 2+?) ...

 

He is like Bob the Builder, he can fix everything including himself ;)

Now that would be a great conversion! Would love to see a grimdark Bob the Builder

[MoGuy]

In the grimdark future of the 41st millienia there are only construction sides. And the only person who can save mankind from the infinitely enraging stop and go of the warp is Bob the Builder! *dramatic music*

[MoGuy]

 

 

looks like you had a much better time then I, so congratz on your victory!

 

Thank you, my fellow Tech Priest! I hope my Data will be of use to you, if you face those pesky Pointy-Ears again! ;)

 

 

 

Also happy 2,000th post to me

 

All hail the mighty spam! :P (Congratz)

[DeStinyFiSh]

Had another game against KDK today (I did not know what he was going to play in advance), 1300 points, very very close !

I had a Battle Maniple (Ruststalker as Warlord) and an allied Cult detachment (Domi, Breachers, Robots).

He had a CAD. Lord on juggernaut with a big blob of dogs, Berserkers in Rhino, Bloodletter, Grinder, 3 Bikes, 2x Cultists and the 300 point Thirster.

He had the first turn.

I made a BIG mistake and scouted with my Ruststalkers and the Dominus too close to the dogs and got charged turn 1. So he killed about 300 points, had first blood and warlord kill. Stupid mistake , but will never happen again !

The Thirster was flying around, killing 6 Vanguard with the flail and his template. AP4, no cover and wounding on 2+ is no fun at all...

The rest of his army pushed forward, Rhino popped smoke.

On my first turn I managed to glance the Grinder 3 times with the Breachers. He made realy good saves here... unfortunately.

Kastelans and Infiltrators shot at the Hounds, Infiltrators charged them and killed all but 1 and the Lord. Vanguard died because of this burning effect of the Thirsters template attack.

My dragoon attacked some cultists and made them flee.

After turn 1 it was 6:2 for KDK

In his second turn I finished the last Dog and his Lord. Bikers charged my Robots and got killed. Berserkers left the Rhino, Grinder shot at the Breachers and missed. Thirster killed 4 out of 5 Rangers.

I was able to charge the Berserkers that disembarked in front of me with my Infiltrators and killed all but 2. The Kastelans attacked some Cultists swept them from an object I needed, Dragoon destroyed the Rhino.

3rd turn his Bloodletters tried to help the Berserkes, the Thirster finally landed.

My Infiltrators killed the remaining Berserkers and the Bloodletters without a problem. Kastelans shot at the Thirster, then they charged him (not very good, but otherwise he would have charged me a turn later... ). He killed 1 Robot

The remaining game he summoned a few Crushers and a Prince. His Thirster killed the Kastelans, then the Onager, then the Breachers. His Prince killed the Dragoon and the Infiltrators.

In the End there was only 1 Ranger with an Arc Rifle and the Thirster on the field. After turn 6 the game ended. 16:8 for Ad Mech.

BUT: He did not know, that the Prince is summoned wearing an armour. I killed him with the Arc Rifle, but he used only his 5++ instead of the 3+. If te Prince would have survived, he would have killed the Ranger and would have tabled me (sorry if the grammar is wrong, I am no native speaker).

So it was a fun and close game.

Lessons learned:

- Don't get closer to KDK with your scout move as necessary... just don't

- I played the Ruststalkers 4 times now and they never did something important...

- Infiltrators are just amazing ! Killed the Lord + Dogs, Berserkers, Bloodletter, Crusher and wounded the Prince

- 36" Haywire is nice !

- I need to keep the Vanguard save in future so that I have something against the Thirster when it touches the ground

[MoGuy]

01010000 01110010 01101111 01100011 01100101 01110011 01110011 01101001 01101110 01100111 00100000 01000100 01100001 01110100 01100001 00101110 00101110 00101110 

 

Thank you for your data-entry in our collective library! Your Infiltrators seem to have done some major damage against his Deamons. Could you elaborate a bit on how you used them? I have yet to field them and I would like to know, how you got so many succesful charges of with them and how their survivability is in CC. Did you just bounce them form CC to CC?

 

That mistake with your scout move is a bummer. If in doubt, always measure the distance to the enemy and deploy/scout accordingly. 

 

Can you share some knowledge about the Kastelans? I have ordered mine and will pick them up next week, however, I am not entirely sure on their powerlevel and what their best uses are.

[DeStinyFiSh]

Just make sure the Infiltrators don't get shot before they make it into combat AND that they strike first ! I attacked the Prince and it was just a suicide mission. Same for charging through cover.

The extra movement and stealth makes them perfect for waiting in ruins and counter charge anything that gets to close. AP4 templates and S6 shots (I am looking at you Eldar players) are a problem though.

In this game I was lucky enough to kill his units in his assault phase, so he could not shoot at them. After finishing a unit I then had the consolidate, 9" in my movement phase and 2d6+3" for assault. They nearly always make it into assault.

And do not underestimate their shooting

Against MEQ you can use them together with Vanguard or an Inquisitor with Rad Grenades. This will drop the T to 3 and with your S6 Tasters you will insta-kill everything. In my very first game with them I killed Vulkan in a challange and I think 4 more Marines, before I even rolled the remaining 16 taser attacks !

And the Castelans are very very tough, especially in the Cohort Cybernetica (expensive though). T7, 3+, FNP and 5++ against shooting is pretty nice. The Datasmith is very good as well (T4, 2+, FNP, 5++). The output is good, too. They can throw a lot of AP3 shots at enemy units with the Phosphor weapons. Go for them, they are much more flexible than fists and flamer.

Just make sure you get them into a good position. 36" range with Phosphor is good to cover a big area, but if they stuck behind terrain and can't see any targets worth shooting at, you waste a lot of potential. The protocols are kind if strange to use correctly in my opinion. If in doubt, I keep the FNP, always worth it !

Despite that they are pretty much a no brainer. Walk into the center of the battlefield, if possible on an objective, soak up tons of fire and kill everything that gets to close

[MoGuy]

Even with the risk of this being just common sense, I still wanted to share my thoughts:

 

So, I was thinking about this for a while. With one/multiple Dunecrawler(s), one or two Dragoons and some Kastelans (or a Imperial Knight), it would be pretty easy to oversaturate one's opponent with targets to shoot his hight strength/anti vehicle stuff at. Has someone tried something like this? 

 

My thoughtprocess was somethink like this:

 

- Our armies' CC units are quite powerfull but paperthin. Dragoons and Infiltrators/Ruststalkers can be shot down in a single round of shooting. Cover helps, but every wound will hurt quite a bit. So how do we get our units there?

 

- The same problem arrises with the Dunecrawlers, as they are very potent engines of destruction but if the enemy gets the chance to shoot at them, they too will be gone very fast.

 

- Third problem are the Skitarii Vanguard or to be more precise: Their range. 

 

- All this leads to the question: How do we protect our stuff long enough so that the units can do their jobs (without taking allies just to get some transports of course)? 

The answere:

 

We play the distraction game! Deploying the aforementioned Onagers, Dragoons and Kastelans creates three threats that all require high-strenght weapons to effectively deal with. 

If they shoot the Onager(s), they don't shoot the Kastelans or Dragoons. Thus the Dragoons can actually survive till Turn 2 and charge their targets. If they shoot the Dragoons, they don't shoot our Ruststalkers/infiltrators or other vehicles, thus these units can do their jobs.

 

A "perfect" battle would look something like this:

 

Deploying the Vanguard and behind them Ruststalkers/Infiltrators. If the Vanguard gets charged, the Stalkers/Infiltrators can counter-charge. If the Vanguard get shot, the Stalkers/Infiltrators don't take those shots and can make it into CC.

 

Deploying Onagers/Dragoons/Kastelans creates aforementioned oversaturation for the opponent.

 

Another tactic I have used with good results so far is deploying 3 Destroyers in a position that - if the opponent wants to shoot at them - forces the enemy to deploy his stuff in an unfavorable way. I imagine this distraction will work quite well with other units too. Especially Dragoons, since they are a win - win unit no matter what. If they get shot at, the enemy just wasted shots to take down 45 points. If they survive and make it into CC they will probably kill more points than we spend on them. 

[DeStinyFiSh]

Well, the problem is, that for killing Vanguard and Sicarians, the opponent needs different weapons than for opening your vehicles and robots.

Heavy Bolters, Flamer and every normal handgun is a potential threat for our gangly Skitarii, while stronger weapons like plasma and melter can deal with the bigger targets you mentioned.

So the opponent is not realy forced to deal with either one or the other, but hecan choose which weapon to fire against which unit (a little bit like paper, scissor, rock...)

 

I think your tactic works best by either flooding him with cheap targets (so that the heavy weapons are kind of wasted), or to field a lot of heavy targets, so that all of his smaller guns don't do any harm.

 

But in generell I think with good positioning, scout, infiltrate and dunestrider you should be able to maneuver your army around in a way to keep them safe from the worst damage. There is no need to build a list that strongly preferes one sort of unit over another one.

[MoGuy]

 

 

Heavy Bolters, Flamer and every normal handgun is a potential threat for our gangly Skitarii, while stronger weapons like plasma and melter can deal with the bigger targets you mentioned.

 

I know, but they can't deal effectively with the threads presented by those units. Flamers will have to target either the Vanguard or the Sicarians (except for when the opponent has an abbundance of flamers, which I don't think will be the case that often). They will likely kill one of those units but the other one will survive and thus kills the flamers. It is a bit like chess. You can kill either A or B, but no matter which of the two you take down, the other one will therefore avenge the fallen unit. 

 

 

 

but hecan choose which weapon to fire against which unit 

 

Yes, but for us this works a bit different than for other armies. Against Eldar you would bring those weapons too but since they have not that many models that require heavy weapons to take down, we can deal pretty effectively with their threats. With said Onagers/Dragoons/Kastelans however it is a bit different. Yes, all of them can be taken down by e.g. Plasma, however, if they shoot e.g. the Kastelans they will be charged by the Dragoons. If they shoot the Dragoons they will be charged/shot by the Kastelans, if they shoot the Onagers the other two units will hurt them. 

 

The Dragoons are especially good at this because they create a more immediate sense of threat to the opponent. People tend to rather shoot the stuff that stands in front of their units and want to charge them than shoot the stuff that stays in the back. But since our Dragoons are so dirt cheap they will "waste" their high strength weapons on them, instead of dealing with other threats. And this is akin to the oversaturation as played by e.g. Tyranid players who present one with too many threats to effectively take care of. 

 

With smart deployment one can further this effect by forcing the opponent to split his army and firepower into unfavorable positions.

 

 

 

But in generell I think with good positioning, scout, infiltrate and dunestrider you should be able to maneuver your army around in a way to keep them safe from the worst damage. 

 

Yeah, it is just a thought-experiment. I'll test my tactic one day and will report about it. Until then I probably won't build a list around it.

[Riot Earp]

I just Start skitarii to ally them in with my blood Angels. the next tournament allows 4 detachments so i pull that card full out. Had a test game against some one who also will go to this tournament so i had a test game against his beatiful Salamanders.

 

Take a look.http://www.bolterandchainsword.com/topic/317869-riot-earps-blood-angels-and-imperial-allies/page-2?do=findComment&comment=4312902

[Tyriks]

I just played a 750 point game against Space Marines.  It was brutally one-sided, in part because he was very new and made some rookie mistakes (then again, so did I).

 

End result: I tabled him turn 3, but it was very apparent he had lost after the first turn.  

 

DATA:

I brought a Skitarii Maniple.  

Vanguard (10 man no upgrades besides omnispex)

Vanguard (5 man 2 arc rifles with Arc pistol and omnispex)

Sicarian Infiltrators (no upgrades)

Ruststalkers (no upgrades, princeps was Warlord, had Omniscient Mask)

Onager with Neutron

 

The Infiltrators basically killed his entire army.  They were glorious.  That 3" extra move (plus infiltrate) really adds up!  

 

He had a CAD.

5 Tactical Marines

5 scouts with camo cloaks

Chaplain with the 2+ armor relic (total waste of points, he got drowned in taser attacks)

Vanguard Vets (5, no upgrades, with a Razorback w/ lascannon as dedicated transport, Chaplain was with them)

Dreadnought (might have replaced multi-melta with assault or auto cannon, can't remember)

Assault Terminators (lightning claws, in Deep Strike Reserve)

 

Neither of us own any actual terrain, so we used books, boxes, stuff like that.  This was a mistake because LoS was basically always blocked by terrain.  Should have had smaller terrain and some should have allowed LoS.  Table was also a little narrow (3'6", which didn't help).

 

He won the roll, chose to go first.  I won the roll to deploy Infiltrators first, so I put my Sicarians 12" from his tactical marines behind a piece of terrain.  He then put his scouts behind my Infiltrators, intending to blast them before they could move away.  Huge mistake.  Because of the LoS issues, there was only one spot to put them to try this, and it screwed him, because I seized the initiative successfully.

 

So, I used that army-wide scout on every unit but the Infiltrators.  My naked Vanguard moved up onto a box, moving down the other side on their movement giving them the perfect shot on the scouts.  Every scout was gunned down.  

 

The Onager scouted six inches and then moved six inches to get LoS on the Razorback and sent it sky high.  It had cover save which it failed.  The vanguard vets disembarked but lost one model, failed pinning test, had nowhere to go to get away from Infiltrators.  Flechette blasters took one more vet before they charged, which killed the Chaplain and one more vet (and one infiltrator).  He even mistakenly rolled overwatch for the vets as if they had heavy bolters, did nothing.  Having two vets left meant they didn't get shot by the dreadnought or tactical marines next turn.  I chose not to challenge since he had that 2+ armor and I figured it would just get my princeps killed, and I think it worked out better for me that I didn't.

 

Ruststalkers ran to get closer.  I rolled a 1 on them running every single turn, so they saw no action.  I was also trying to keep them in cover for fear of the dreadnought.  

The other Vanguard squad inched up the board, had LoS blocked.

 

His turn, tactical marines moved away from the Infiltrators, trying to get around the box my arc vanguards were hiding behind to protect his dreadnought.  His dreadnought tried to charge the infiltrators, failed the charge.  Terminators failed reserve rolls.  

 

In assault, the Infiltrators finished off the vets.

 

My turn, the infiltrators moved away from the dreadnought (basically they were dancing around a piece of terrain) and shot up the tacticals.  They then obliterated them with a charge.  Everything else moved forward, did nothing.

 

His turn, the dreadnought (now alone) hid.  Terminators scattered off the board.  My turn, I hit the dreadnought with a Ruststalker grenade and then charged with Infiltrators, glanced it to death.  Poof, game over.  

 

As I said, the Infiltrators demolished pretty much everything.  My only casualties were an Infiltrator and two or three Vanguard.  The dice were definitely on my side the whole game (except for Run rolls).  He failed more saves than statistically he should have, and I made more than I should have.  I think the lack of LoS also helped me out more than it helped him.  It kept his dreadnought alive an extra turn or two, but also kept him from shooting back pretty much every time he wanted to.  It was so one sided that I'm wondering if he added his points up wrong or something, and should have had a little more to work with.  Then again, he spent points on upgrades that rarely or never got used, so maybe that's all it was.  

 

Either way, it was fun, but I wish it would have been more evenly matched.  I kind of felt bad for how lopsided the game went.  

 

EDIT: I also just realized that I never gave my Infiltrators an attack boost for having pistols.  That could have helped me or hurt me, since I might have wiped that Vanguard Vet squad out turn one and been open to getting shot to pieces by the Dreadnought and tactical marines.  Whoops.

 

2nd EDIT:  Also realized that the one time an enemy survived an assault from the Infiltrators, we forgot to test leadership afterwards.  Again, could have changed the game.  

[DeStinyFiSh]

Vanguard (10 man no upgrades besides omnispex)

The Rad Weapons are AP5, so there is no real need for an omnispex. Nearly every unit has an armour safe that is better than 5+, so cover is not necessary -> so reducing cover is not either

Infiltrators are nasty. I am sure they would have wiped out the Vets in 1 go

[MagicHat]

I keep an omnispex on my vanguards with arc rifles, mainly to against enemy skimmers jinking. It is also useful against units with 4+ or 3+ armour that lurks in 3+ or 2+ cover. Absolutely hilarious against RW bikers. 

[Dread0]

I tend to run Plasma Calivers with my Vanguard so Omnispex is pretty much a must take. However if they were bare bones then I would probably take the Data Tether instead unless I'm against Guard, Orks, DE etc with paper armour.

 

 

The Onager scouted six inches and then moved six inches to get LoS on the Razorback and sent it sky high.  It had cover save which it failed.  The vanguard vets disembarked but lost one model, failed pinning test, had nowhere to go to get away from Infiltrators.  Flechette blasters took one more vet before they charged, which killed the Chaplain and one more vet (and one infiltrator).  He even mistakenly rolled overwatch for the vets as if they had heavy bolters, did nothing.  Having two vets left meant they didn't get shot by the dreadnought or tactical marines next turn.  I chose not to challenge since he had that 2+ armor and I figured it would just get my princeps killed, and I think it worked out better for me that I didn't.

 

 

Just checking you didn't infiltrate your Infiltrators and then charge them first turn Tyriks. That's a no no in terms of the rules and I would hate to see you set up to charge first turn and then get told you can't. 

[MoGuy]

So far I have only played against armies  with poor armour (Orks, Eldar, Dark Eldar) and thus the Omnispex was pretty sexy. 

 

Depending on one's tabletop group the Omnispex may or may not be worth taking. In my group we play wit A LOT of terrain which is mostly composed of ruins, thus most units will have 4+ cover base + nightfighting/stealth/shrouded etc. Therefore the Omnispex is acutally pretty good, even if the enemy has e.g. 4+ armour.

 

Data Tether is also nice but so far my Vanguard always held morale.

 

 

 

Neither of us own any actual terrain, so we used books, boxes, stuff like that.

 

Get yourselves some cheap terrain from eBay. Look for hills or woods. For ruins I can really recommend the Mors Garden set from GW. You get A LOT of terrain for your money (walls, fences, buildings, statues). And it looks fantastic! Playing with books and stuff for terrain is just not nearly as nice as playing with actual terrain (however, I have done this too, so I know your situation). 

 

Also as Dread0 said: No infiltrating and charging Turn 1. You have to plan ahead for Turn 2 and position accordingly. 

[Tyriks]

Just checking you didn't infiltrate your Infiltrators and then charge them first turn Tyriks. That's a no no in terms of the rules and I would hate to see you set up to charge first turn and then get told you can't. 

Aw, crap.  I thought that was only if I moved them with the Scout redeploy, but now I see you are right.  I definitely screwed that one up!

 

As for omnispex, it did help when shooting down his scouts (camo cloaks hanging out on top of a box in a ruin).  I can't remember what cover save we agreed on for that piece of terrain but it was definitely better than their 4+ armor save with the cloaks.  

[MoGuy]

Just a quick reminder: Ruins (and some other terrain) always give 4+ cover! No matter if the model is obscured 25% or 75%. You can of course agree that they give a different coversave.

[Dread]

My group is mostly marines, necrons and Tau. Any suggestions for load out on vanguard and rangers?

[MoGuy]

Vanguard with Plasma (+ Omnispex/Data Tether). Depending on how many Vanguard Squads you field you can also give one Plasma Guns and another Squad Arc Rifles. 

 

Rangers naked (+ Omnispex). They just get too expensive when you upgrade them. Maybe give them Arc Rifles, if you lack Anti-Tank options (which Ad Mech normally has plenty of, without dropping Arc Rifles everywhere).

[Dread0]

Plasma is great against Marines and Tau suits and works well with Vanguard as they can wound anything with enough shots.

 

I take Arc Rifles on my Rangers as they can damage av 10 with their Galvanic Rifles. Moguy is right though, they are quite expensive.

[MoGuy]

Guys, I would like to request your collective data for my following "problems".

 

1.) I currently own 10x Rangers and 20x Vanguard and was thinking about picking up a box of Rangers/Vanguard and I wanted to ask if I should build another 10 Vanguard or another 10 Rangers. I kinda fear that those additional 10 models will be wasted because at a point-level from 1000 - 1850 points who does bring 40 Skitarii? Or maybe I'm just overthinking and it is actually common to take that much infanterie?

 

2.) I might get the chance to pick up 5x Ruststalkers and a Dragoon. I currently have 5x Infiltrators and one Dragoon. Should I go for it? I somehow always read on here about the amazing performance of Infiltrators but seldome of amazing performance by the Ruststalkers (altough I like their models more). 

[mmimzie]

I'd say for skitarii you can't go wrong making vanilla vanguard. They just kill everything with a T value with handfuls of dice. I like to ask my opponent if I could just roll my wife into thier models, and the ones that fall are kill, but that never seems to fly.

 

Ruststalkers can do things, but I feel like point for point dragoons and infiltrators do all of those something's better. Also if you run your dragoon solo know that it won't do well. That's like trying to do something with 3 marines and wondering why they don't prefer. Just as a heads up.

 

As to the discussion earlier on best load outs. I will continue to say vanilla vanguards do so much work. So many wounds, so many dice, for a cheap price. Let other units in your army open up cars, and if you must take arc rifles or plasma limit it to 2 or 1 respectively.

[Dread]

Thanks. I really appreciate the info. Makes the model build easier.