Dark Angels 2015 : Worries and Wishlist

[twopounder]

My concern is the new DA Codex'll be so good everyone will want DA armies!! We'll become the home of every bandwaggoner going .

Only for a month. Then everyone will jump to the next book.

[Brother dean]

Ah, heres a real world worry that has happened before...  They release C:SM and dont release C: DA for six months and C:SM is so overpowered that the outcry is so bad that C: DA as the next marine Dex gets the Nerf Bat...  (just like the 4th ed book got....)

[SvenONE]

Here's my top 10 things I would wish, I'll be honest and say I don't find any of these to be outrageous as most of them are cost related.

 

I also won't be that disappointed if none of these come true as I already have little to no faith in GW to balance their game or write rules that are conducive to every codex actually being fun, you can't disappoint apathy.

 

10.  Deathwing Terminators being overhauled.  Any combination of point reduction, wargear options (imagine Deepstruck TL-grav cannons?), being made troops, the far-fetched 2-wound terminator.  If any one of those things happened without an increase in cost, I'd be happy.  But mostly they need to be dropped in points.  After Grey Knights, we're supposed to be THE terminator Chapter.  This isn't reflected in the rules.

 

9.  Black Knights being brought in line with their Command Squad costs.  That extra savings can go to something.

 

8.  RWAS point reductions.  This I think is probably one of the most likely things to happen.  If it doesn't I'll shake my head in resignation that GW simply doesn't care about writing rules, it's such an obvious change (unless Vanilla is made to cost the same as our bikes).

 

7.  Landspeeder Vengeance.  Remember, according to its point cost, GW values the Plasma Battery at an astounding 90 points.  For something that loses one of its firing modes outright if it decides to jink.  Which it will probably be doing 100% of the time you put it on the table considering that using it puts it in range of most small arms fire that can hurt it.  Oh it can also damage itself.  Probably one of the biggest flops of unit GWs put out.

 

6.  Nephilim/Dark Talon changes.  The Jetfighter is a close second to the LSV in terms of overcosted uselessness.  Both of these flyers could use a significant decrease in points.

 

5.  Ravenwing and Deathwing formations.  Perhaps with DWT cost reductions, a Deathwing formation will be seen.  I wouldn't hold my breath for really awesome rules, but maybe there's something there.  A Ravenwing formation on the other hand I think will be awesome, I've long since considered it our strongest aspect of the codex.  Tough models with decent survivability (jink saves), a nice mix of firepower between special weapons and the banner of devastation, melee prowess and low AP (twin linked) shooting of the Black Knights (and the unsung RGWL).  Any bonus rules to running a RW list is, in my eyes, icing on the cake.  

 

4. HQ Reworking - Find a more proper role for Azrael.  When I look at his colleagues, Calgar, Draigo, Dante, Grimnar those are all pretty serious Chapter Masters both in stats and in cost (note, all of those aforementioned CMs are Eternal Warrior and pack serious punches).  The more modest CMs like Helbrecht and Pedro Kantor are more the "support Chapter Master" who are much more appropriately costed.  Azrael, as a concept is at odds with what he does.  For example, he has the ability to grant everyone his leadership, but also makes terminators troops.  So if he were to sit in a deathwing heavy list, his leadership would be entirely going to waste as everyone he just unlocked is Fearless.  Belial is a 1st Company Master, but he again falls in this weird spot between a Lysander and a Khan.  He's too weak to be a lysander, and he costs to much to do what Khan does (strength/AP3/mobility in precision deep striking and unlocking DWT as troops).  Asmodai.  YUCK.

 

3.  Relic and Wargear adjustments.  Part of what makes a chapter unique are the items they use.  The Banners aren't so bad.  Fortitude, for what it CAN do is costed appropriately, it's just that you have to invest a significant amount of more points into protecting it somehow.  In most cases, those FNP saves are spent mostly on the squad that carries it since it's the most OBVIOUS thing on the board.  The Monster Slayer of Caliban is so neat of an idea, it's just a brutally overcosted item.  The Dev Standard has run its course, with the advent of the new Maelstrom missions, static armies are no good.  There's no place for Salvo in a tactical marine list these days, bikes they do great.  Retribution standard is a snoozer.  

 

2.  MIND WORM.  This is one of the WORST spells in the game, I spent the better part of a week about a year and a half ago doing the math to outline HOW bad this ability is considering you are forced to take it.  The librarius conclave doesn't make it any better since you're spending another 100 points to make it only slightly better.  The biggest issue this ability has is that Look Out Sir! exists it's for all intents and purposes a 2++ against a psychic attack that's somehow supposed to target someone's MIND.  It needs to be S6 to increase it's chance of wounding to offset the very high probability the wound won't even be applied.

 

1.  Inner Circle and Grim Resolve.  Stubborn and Fearless aren't bad USRs, but their mileage varies depending on who you give them to.  Ork Boyz, Tyranid Swarms, Chaos Cultists, Dark Eldar Wracks, Guardsman blobs? Great models to get Fearless or Stubborn.  But space marines get the most out of their bolters, not their close combat attacks.  The only units that can reasonably benefit from Fearless or Stubborn are Scouts, and because ours are more expensive and lack a landspeeder storm (I still don't understand why), you can't even capitalize on this.  It's about time we got a proper chapter trait, and quite possibly preferred enemy or hatred would make the most sense since our level of ZEAL can rival that of those dopes in black.

[Isiah]

@Brother Dean ... then we all bandwaggon C:SM for giggles. For every cloud has a silver lining :p

 

Cheers

I

[DeadZone]

I'm glad that Dark Angels are not part of the default Space Marine codex. I'm okay with a lot of the units already in the codex as is, but the HQ, Flyers, Land Speeder Vengeance, and perhaps terminators need quite a bit of help.

[JeffJedi]

Give the Dark Talon strength D, Vortex on it's main gun and I'll buy it.

[Olataro]

Here's my top 10 things I would wish, I'll be honest and say I don't find any of these to be outrageous as most of them are cost related.

 

I also won't be that disappointed if none of these come true as I already have little to no faith in GW to balance their game or write rules that are conducive to every codex actually being fun, you can't disappoint apathy.

 

10. Deathwing Terminators being overhauled. Any combination of point reduction, wargear options (imagine Deepstruck TL-grav cannons?), being made troops, the far-fetched 2-wound terminator. If any one of those things happened without an increase in cost, I'd be happy. But mostly they need to be dropped in points. After Grey Knights, we're supposed to be THE terminator Chapter. This isn't reflected in the rules.

 

9. Black Knights being brought in line with their Command Squad costs. That extra savings can go to something.

 

8. RWAS point reductions. This I think is probably one of the most likely things to happen. If it doesn't I'll shake my head in resignation that GW simply doesn't care about writing rules, it's such an obvious change (unless Vanilla is made to cost the same as our bikes).

 

7. Landspeeder Vengeance. Remember, according to its point cost, GW values the Plasma Battery at an astounding 90 points. For something that loses one of its firing modes outright if it decides to jink. Which it will probably be doing 100% of the time you put it on the table considering that using it puts it in range of most small arms fire that can hurt it. Oh it can also damage itself. Probably one of the biggest flops of unit GWs put out.

 

6. Nephilim/Dark Talon changes. The Jetfighter is a close second to the LSV in terms of overcosted uselessness. Both of these flyers could use a significant decrease in points.

 

5. Ravenwing and Deathwing formations. Perhaps with DWT cost reductions, a Deathwing formation will be seen. I wouldn't hold my breath for really awesome rules, but maybe there's something there. A Ravenwing formation on the other hand I think will be awesome, I've long since considered it our strongest aspect of the codex. Tough models with decent survivability (jink saves), a nice mix of firepower between special weapons and the banner of devastation, melee prowess and low AP (twin linked) shooting of the Black Knights (and the unsung RGWL). Any bonus rules to running a RW list is, in my eyes, icing on the cake.

 

4. HQ Reworking - Find a more proper role for Azrael. When I look at his colleagues, Calgar, Draigo, Dante, Grimnar those are all pretty serious Chapter Masters both in stats and in cost (note, all of those aforementioned CMs are Eternal Warrior and pack serious punches). The more modest CMs like Helbrecht and Pedro Kantor are more the "support Chapter Master" who are much more appropriately costed. Azrael, as a concept is at odds with what he does. For example, he has the ability to grant everyone his leadership, but also makes terminators troops. So if he were to sit in a deathwing heavy list, his leadership would be entirely going to waste as everyone he just unlocked is Fearless. Belial is a 1st Company Master, but he again falls in this weird spot between a Lysander and a Khan. He's too weak to be a lysander, and he costs to much to do what Khan does (strength/AP3/mobility in precision deep striking and unlocking DWT as troops). Asmodai. YUCK.

 

3. Relic and Wargear adjustments. Part of what makes a chapter unique are the items they use. The Banners aren't so bad. Fortitude, for what it CAN do is costed appropriately, it's just that you have to invest a significant amount of more points into protecting it somehow. In most cases, those FNP saves are spent mostly on the squad that carries it since it's the most OBVIOUS thing on the board. The Monster Slayer of Caliban is so neat of an idea, it's just a brutally overcosted item. The Dev Standard has run its course, with the advent of the new Maelstrom missions, static armies are no good. There's no place for Salvo in a tactical marine list these days, bikes they do great. Retribution standard is a snoozer.

 

2. MIND WORM. This is one of the WORST spells in the game, I spent the better part of a week about a year and a half ago doing the math to outline HOW bad this ability is considering you are forced to take it. The librarius conclave doesn't make it any better since you're spending another 100 points to make it only slightly better. The biggest issue this ability has is that Look Out Sir! exists it's for all intents and purposes a 2++ against a psychic attack that's somehow supposed to target someone's MIND. It needs to be S6 to increase it's chance of wounding to offset the very high probability the wound won't even be applied.

 

1. Inner Circle and Grim Resolve. Stubborn and Fearless aren't bad USRs, but their mileage varies depending on who you give them to. Ork Boyz, Tyranid Swarms, Chaos Cultists, Dark Eldar Wracks, Guardsman blobs? Great models to get Fearless or Stubborn. But space marines get the most out of their bolters, not their close combat attacks. The only units that can reasonably benefit from Fearless or Stubborn are Scouts, and because ours are more expensive and lack a landspeeder storm (I still don't understand why), you can't even capitalize on this. It's about time we got a proper chapter trait, and quite possibly preferred enemy or hatred would make the most sense since our level of ZEAL can rival that of those dopes in black.

Well said, though I would argue that our air fighters need not only a reduction in points, but also a boost in weapons.

 

Also, Mindworm shouldn't even allow a look out sir, and wounding should be against leadership value ( eg ld 10 against ld 9 Dude, we will wound him on a 3+)

 

Man, our chapter looks pathetic

[Frater Cornelius]

WS have allegedly lost their Hit and Run. Either RW will have the monopoly on it or they will meet the same fate. A concern of mine.

[Chaplain Lucifer]

We do pay more for RW bikes so, we need to have something extra to justify the points.

[Frater Cornelius]

We do pay more for RW bikes so, we need to have something extra to justify the points.

We pay more as of right now. Should the next book come along, things might yet change. However, if the SM and Eldar books are anything to go by, minor tweak and better balance and Formations are the main addition.

[Chaplain Lucifer]

One thing never changed,RW were always more expensive than their counterparts in SM/SW/BA/etc.  Sometimes we got goodies enough to justify the difference of points, sometimes not. But they were always more expensive and with extra rules. So I'm not expecting special rules to evaporate and points remain the same. Future will tell of course. :)

[Olataro]

Currently I feel that jink and snapfire penalty is killing the Ravenwing. If we had skilled rider rule, would that help I wonder?

[palin2222]

What ever they decide to do with the new codex I'll make it work. Really the only thing I can really say I am hoping for is a Thunderfire Cannon.

[Master Avoghai]

I've just read the last rumours and saw this one

Armoured Task Force

– 1 Techmarine

– 0-3 TFC

– 3-5 Units of

Vindicators

Predators

Whirlwinds

– 0-1 Chronus

Benefits:

– Ignore crew shaken and stunned if at 6″ of a Techmarine or a Techmarine gunner

– Thechmarine and Techmarine gunner get +1 to Ominissiah rolls (repair vehicles)

 

Since our preds, vindies or tech are totally the same as vanilla ones... Do you, like me, hear little voices shouting "Ironwing!" when seeing this formation? ;)

[Frater Cornelius]

I've just read the last rumours and saw this one

Armoured Task Force

– 1 Techmarine

– 0-3 TFC

– 3-5 Units of

Vindicators

Predators

Whirlwinds

– 0-1 Chronus

Benefits:

– Ignore crew shaken and stunned if at 6″ of a Techmarine or a Techmarine gunner

– Thechmarine and Techmarine gunner get +1 to Ominissiah rolls (repair vehicles)

Since our preds, vindies or tech are totally the same as vanilla ones... Do you, like me, hear little voices shouting "Ironwing!" when seeing this formation?

Well, you could technically ally in this Formation. All Gladius Formations can be taken on their own as well. That would be your way to ally in some Shredding WW, Apoc Blast Vindis and TFCs.

[Master Avoghai]

Exactly... Or Stalkers/Hunters ;)

 

But this formation is really nice as its content doesn't have chapter-specific special rules hence can represent as well BA DA or UM...

 

That will be really nice.

[Frater Cornelius]

Exactly... Or Stalkers/Hunters ;)

 

But this formation is really nice as its content doesn't have chapter-specific special rules hence can represent as well BA DA or UM...

 

That will be really nice.

Good thought there, bud. I will look how well this setup fits into my RW + GW ground based list. This could potentially even make a very solid RW + Ironwing list. The +1 cover and redundancy of this list will make it very resistant to alpha strikes and deliver a devastating echo. I like this idea.

[shabbadoo]

There is also a slightly superior Librairus Conclave. Another states Dreadnoughts go up to 4 Attacks base. Another states the base cost of vanilla Terminators dropped in points, but the upgrade cost for TH & SS puts those models back up to where they were before. Still, the others are a good deal cheaper. This harkens back to the old 2E point differentials, when a Terminator was 64 points compared to a Tactical's 30 points. Now we have 35 points compared to 14 points (they round off to the same hundredths place even, so REALLY close!!!). This is a very appropriate change balance-wise, and is long, long overdue. If everything follows suit for DA, we'll see smaller Elite Deathwing armies be able to hold their own just a bit more equitably, and we'll probably see a good deal more non-TH & SS Terminators too (which I think is great). The C: SM stuff sounds so decent that it does leave me with some trepidation in that C: DA will be made different in many ways, just for the sake of being different, and in doing so could lead to them (once again) ending up being sub-par in their...differentness (because there is kind of a track record there... ).

[Master Sheol]

Shabbadoo nailed it...

This is my fear...

To make DA different from SM they will give us useless things (like the infamous Blade of Caliban) and they will make us pay them an arm and an eye...

[rendingon1+]

Blade of Cailban... In background broken Blade of Caliban is reforged into Halberd of Caliban. Former is +1S AP3 unwieldy, later is +2S AP2 no unwieldy.

Why can't they brake every Blade and remake them into Halberds? WHY?!

My wish is:

Dedicated CC unit that is not Deathwing - I'd really like to see SM Honour Guard equivalent. Especially with option for relic blades. That woud be ubber fluffy.

[Olataro]

Blade of Cailban... In background broken Blade of Caliban is reforged into Halberd of Caliban. Former is +1S AP3 unwieldy, later is +2S AP2 no unwieldy.

Why can't they brake every Blade and remake them into Halberds? WHY?!

My wish is:

Dedicated CC unit that is not Deathwing - I'd really like to see SM Honour Guard equivalent. Especially with option for relic blades. That woud be ubber fluffy.

Hahaha, yeah. One of the facepalm moments. If only they do this +2s, ap2 to the smite maces, then I'm happy enough

[DeadZone]

Give the Dark Talon strength D, Vortex on it's main gun and I'll buy it.

Uh...

 

I'd still like the Dark Angels to keep their sense of "Utility over Power". I would even be happy to have the same codex re-released with point drops, adjustments to the special/relic items, and the replacement of redundant special rules (almost all of Azrael's kit). The current style layed out for all the 'wing' options is nice, and it would feel cheap to change it; Ravenwing have the speed, Deathwing have the muscle, and the marines have the endurance. Deathwing knights feel somewhat appropriately costed, but Deathwing terminators are trash at 44pts/model, I agree on that. 

[Major_Gilbear]

Here's my top 10 things I would wish, I'll be honest and say I don't find any of these to be outrageous as most of them are cost related.

I also won't be that disappointed if none of these come true as I already have little to no faith in GW to balance their game or write rules that are conducive to every codex actually being fun, you can't disappoint apathy.

Good list, bringing up many valid (and sadly ovious) points. Rather than restate much of the same, I'll go through yours and add my thoughts instead!

10. Deathwing Terminators being overhauled. Any combination of point reduction, wargear options (imagine Deepstruck TL-grav cannons?), being made troops, the far-fetched 2-wound terminator. If any one of those things happened without an increase in cost, I'd be happy. But mostly they need to be dropped in points. After Grey Knights, we're supposed to be THE terminator Chapter. This isn't reflected in the rules.

We are only "THE Terminator Chapter" on account of being able to field so many at once if needed. Mostly though, I cannot see the DA committing more Termies to a particular situation than any other chapter.

That said, I feel Terminators need some help in general (not just DW), and I'm not really sure a pure points drop is enough or appropriate. I think that a modest points reduction (I feel they should remain fairly elite), combined with some better rules would help a lot more.

Any options that let them do more or survive better is welcomed at this point. Although I don't think there is much that can "save" them from mass fire, I would perhaps like to see them ignore the various effects of poison and pseudo-rend, etc. Maybe as well as impving your save to 2+/5++, Terminator armour also grants +1T to the wearer?

As far as giving them more weapons options though, I think we have more than enough (although doubling up on heavy weapons in 5-man sqauds might be interesting and fluffy). Afterall, the problem with Termies isn't the choice of weapons as much as whether they are worthwhile or not.

9. Black Knights being brought in line with their Command Squad costs. That extra savings can go to something.

8. RWAS point reductions. This I think is probably one of the most likely things to happen. If it doesn't I'll shake my head in resignation that GW simply doesn't care about writing rules, it's such an obvious change (unless Vanilla is made to cost the same as our bikes

Yep!

7. Landspeeder Vengeance. Remember, according to its point cost, GW values the Plasma Battery at an astounding 90 points. For something that loses one of its firing modes outright if it decides to jink. Which it will probably be doing 100% of the time you put it on the table considering that using it puts it in range of most small arms fire that can hurt it. Oh it can also damage itself. Probably one of the biggest flops of unit GWs put out.

I'll be honest here: I hate this model with its super-ugly and lazy design, and it's pretty terrible fluff.

Now we've got it though, I wouldn't mind seeing it's points and weapons tweaked to at least make it less of a stupid choice in game terms.

6. Nephilim/Dark Talon changes. The Jetfighter is a close second to the LSV in terms of overcosted uselessness. Both of these flyers could use a significant decrease in points.

I like the model, but found GW's "need" to have it build two profiles pointless and silly, and the half-baked fluff was even dafter still. I would like to see this get better rules as it's currently the only real DA flier model, and if there was also a bit of a fluff overhaul too I would be grateful.

5. Ravenwing and Deathwing formations. Perhaps with DWT cost reductions, a Deathwing formation will be seen. I wouldn't hold my breath for really awesome rules, but maybe there's something there. A Ravenwing formation on the other hand I think will be awesome, I've long since considered it our strongest aspect of the codex. Tough models with decent survivability (jink saves), a nice mix of firepower between special weapons and the banner of devastation, melee prowess and low AP (twin linked) shooting of the Black Knights (and the unsung RGWL). Any bonus rules to running a RW list is, in my eyes, icing on the cake.

Despite my continual disappointment that 40k is moving ever closer to Apocalypse/Epic40k, formations are an easy and obvious way to create thmed forces for famous DA units like the DW and RW, and to balance a restricted model selection with a rules boost for free - just what they need, and I'd be well shocked if they don't get this. What those bonus rules are though, is another matter.

Perhaps giving RW an invulnerable Jink save rather than a cover save, and allowing DW Termies to fire twinlinked or assault normally on the same turn as deepstriking would be great. In either instance, I do think it needs to be a distinct boost to make the theme force worthwhile (and I fully expect a lot of players will use these for fluffy themed forces - just as they have done for years anyway).

4. HQ Reworking - Find a more proper role for Azrael. When I look at his colleagues, Calgar, Draigo, Dante, Grimnar those are all pretty serious Chapter Masters both in stats and in cost (note, all of those aforementioned CMs are Eternal Warrior and pack serious punches). The more modest CMs like Helbrecht and Pedro Kantor are more the "support Chapter Master" who are much more appropriately costed. Azrael, as a concept is at odds with what he does. For example, he has the ability to grant everyone his leadership, but also makes terminators troops. So if he were to sit in a deathwing heavy list, his leadership would be entirely going to waste as everyone he just unlocked is Fearless. Belial is a 1st Company Master, but he again falls in this weird spot between a Lysander and a Khan. He's too weak to be a lysander, and he costs to much to do what Khan does (strength/AP3/mobility in precision deep striking and unlocking DWT as troops). Asmodai. YUCK.

I think that as a chapter with a well-balanced tactical doctrine, having Azreal grant an Ultramarines-style chapter trait for a single turn or such would be great. It's also a little more flexible, which makes him more appealing with a variety of different forces under his command - not just making elites troops etc.

But yeah, all the special characters need an overhaul really. I don't necessarily want to see them in every list, but since we are denied generic versions of CM, CL, etc., I would like to see them be a better choice with rules that are not too fussy and weapons that are more akin the relics of other special characters. Asmodai is just terrible for example, and Zeke has a special pychic power that's rather complicated for little purpose combined with a sword that's simply poor compared to a basic version of the same.

On that note, I would like to see options for generic charaters too; that way other Fallen successors can be more readily represented.

3. Relic and Wargear adjustments. Part of what makes a chapter unique are the items they use. The Banners aren't so bad. Fortitude, for what it CAN do is costed appropriately, it's just that you have to invest a significant amount of more points into protecting it somehow. In most cases, those FNP saves are spent mostly on the squad that carries it since it's the most OBVIOUS thing on the board. The Monster Slayer of Caliban is so neat of an idea, it's just a brutally overcosted item. The Dev Standard has run its course, with the advent of the new Maelstrom missions, static armies are no good. There's no place for Salvo in a tactical marine list these days, bikes they do great. Retribution standard is a snoozer.

Banners are okay, but need a points cost that's realistic. In theory, the more points the game is, they more "efficient" and better they become; however, with a limited bubble of effect, it's not really practical to bunch up more than a few units anway and should be costed as such. It would be nice if they helped more than one army build each as well, but as we have three banners it does seem a bit of an ask.

The other relics need a re-think and a re-cost. The Combi needs to either be cheaper, or not be one-use. The shroud is barely okay, but could easily be made more useful. The MSoC and the MoR are great, but costed totally wrong. I personally don't feel any of these would be hard to re-work a bit.

2. MIND WORM. This is one of the WORST spells in the game, I spent the better part of a week about a year and a half ago doing the math to outline HOW bad this ability is considering you are forced to take it. The librarius conclave doesn't make it any better since you're spending another 100 points to make it only slightly better. The biggest issue this ability has is that Look Out Sir! exists it's for all intents and purposes a 2++ against a psychic attack that's somehow supposed to target someone's MIND. It needs to be S6 to increase it's chance of wounding to offset the very high probability the wound won't even be applied.

Yep; terrible power.

Also, not really convinced a Conclave is particularly useful formation anyway, but meh. Be good if the DA Conclave gets a bonus power that fits the DA fluff, but otherwise looks like the C:SM has pinched this now.

The main thing here for me is that Zeke needs a re-work.

1. Inner Circle and Grim Resolve. Stubborn and Fearless aren't bad USRs, but their mileage varies depending on who you give them to. Ork Boyz, Tyranid Swarms, Chaos Cultists, Dark Eldar Wracks, Guardsman blobs? Great models to get Fearless or Stubborn. But space marines get the most out of their bolters, not their close combat attacks. The only units that can reasonably benefit from Fearless or Stubborn are Scouts, and because ours are more expensive and lack a landspeeder storm (I still don't understand why), you can't even capitalize on this. It's about time we got a proper chapter trait, and quite possibly preferred enemy or hatred would make the most sense since our level of ZEAL can rival that of those dopes in black.

These should be granted by Azrael and other approriate characters rather than be "chapter traits" that aren't. DA should instead get some better and more helpful traits, but I guess it's hard not to tread on other chapters' toes here.

[Brother dean]

 

Give the Dark Talon strength D, Vortex on it's main gun and I'll buy it.

Uh...

 

I'd still like the Dark Angels to keep their sense of "Utility over Power". I would even be happy to have the same codex re-released with point drops, adjustments to the special/relic items, and the replacement of redundant special rules (almost all of Azrael's kit). The current style layed out for all the 'wing' options is nice, and it would feel cheap to change it; Ravenwing have the speed, Deathwing have the muscle, and the marines have the endurance. Deathwing knights feel somewhat appropriately costed, but Deathwing terminators are trash at 44pts/model, I agree on that. 

 

I agreed with you right up to the DWKs bit...   Vindi is 125 points for S10 ap1 every turn  Knights are 235 points for S10 for ONE turn...  all the other turns they cannot kill MEQ at all...

[DeadZone]

I agreed with you right up to the DWKs bit...   Vindi is 125 points for S10 ap1 every turn  Knights are 235 points for S10 for ONE turn...  all the other turns they cannot kill MEQ at all...

 

 

 

 

Vindicator can be stopped by just penetrating it's armour once. Knights come with a 3++ and five wounds per squad, their biggest downfall is having to jog across the map. While they should get the same buffs as the other terminators, I'm somewhat okay with their point cost.