++From Hatred We Were Born, Creation of a 7.5 Chaos Codex++

[Teetengee]

No problem, I am working on things, the holidays, a campaign (using this codex and my friend's rewrite of the Blood Angels), and the looming prospect of needing a new job (hey GW, need someone to write the new chaos dex, I have a few ideas ;)) have taken a lot of time from this. Plus the Auxiliaries dex is a little more complicated then the others, so is taking a longer time to produce (much like the first codex, except without the years we have spent figuring out how it could be fixed on a unit by unit basis).

[Paradigm]

This is a massive undertaking. With some great ideas. I typically don't pay a lot of attention to these, anymore. However this one just doesn't go away. It must be because you're doing it right! After a preliminary look through it seems you've got a lot of great ideas and great answers to a lot of the problems we currently face. I'm excited to read it in more detail and see where it goes.

[Teetengee]

Thanks a ton. Obviously it isn't perfect (nor complete) but I hope it is better. I know I have had fun playing with it. Let me know if you have any suggestions or concerns!

[Khornestar]

Came up with a Khorne CAD army list for 2501 points, for funsies:

 

Warp Legacy: Arch Heretics (Hatred, Crusader)

 

HQ:

 

Berzerker Champion: Berzerker Despot, Juggernaut, Storm Shield, Bloodfeeder, Veteran Skill: Hit and Run

Berzerker Champion: Berzerker Despot, Juggernaut, Storm Shield, Axe of Blind Fury, Veteran Skill: Hit and Run

 

TROOPS:

 

Khornate Cultists x8: Scout Upgrade (Scout, Infiltrate, Move Through Cover)

Khornate Cultists x8: Scout Upgrade (Scout, Infiltrate, Move Through Cover)

 

ELITES:

 

Skullcrushers x8: Headtaker with Axe of Khorne & Melta Bombs, Banner of Blood, 2x Thunder Hammer, 1x Power Axe, 1x Darkblade: Power Maul

Skullcrushers x8: Headtaker with Axe of Khorne & Melta Bombs, Banner of Blood, 2x Thunder Hammer, 1x Power Axe, 1x Darkblade: Power Maul

Skullcrushers x8: Headtaker with Axe of Khorne & Melta Bombs, Banner of Blood, 2x Thunder Hammer, 1x Power Axe, 1x Darkblade: Power Maul

 

FAST ATTACK:

 

Rhino: Mutated Hull, Dirge Caster, Dozer blade

Rhino: Mutated Hull, Dirge Caster, Dozer blade

 

HEAVY SUPPORT:

Daemonfiend: Siege Crawler, Mutated Hull, Magma Cutter, Lasher Tendril

Daemonfiend: Siege Crawler, Mutated Hull, Magma Cutter, Lasher Tendril

Daemonfiend: Siege Crawler, Mutated Hull, Magma Cutter, Lasher Tendril

[Teetengee]

Looks like fun, also, it would move sooo fast.

[Khornestar]

Looks like fun, also, it would move sooo fast.

 

That's definitely the fun of it for me. If they spend too long getting shot they'll all die. The empty rhinos are a new idea for me that I'm not totally sold on. It will allow some mobile LOS blocking cover, though.

[Teetengee]

I figured the cultists were riding in them.

Anyways, Chaos Knight Titan is added to the main book. The modifications to create the knights in the other books will be done when I get to it.

[Khornestar]

I figured since I gave the Cultists Scout/Infiltrate that was good for them. Since the Rhinos aren't technically dedicated transports I don't think I can use the special rules if they're embarked. But they can be picked up later, if need be. *shrug* Could probably do something more worthwhile with the points.

 

Thumbs up on the Knights being added. Really need to get around to building mine (story of everything in my collection :P).

[Teetengee]

for the record, the siege wrecker option was added because of Insane Psychopath's knight.

[Hezirah]

Just read first two codices you made, and I found them exactly as I imagined chaos codices should be!

I'm gonna have to convince my mates to allow this.

Keep up your good work brother, the Gods are pleased with your dedication...

[CypherTheFallen]

I've only just started glancing through all of this, but as a Thousand Sons army player, the Tzeentch book is fantastic and makes me so excited to try it out if my buddies will let me.

I did have a question for you though. I noticed for the Sorcerer Lord, you have them at Psyker ML2 by default with the option to add 2 additional mastery levels for +25 points each. This would imply that the Sorcerer Lord can be upgraded to Psyker ML4 like Ahriman or Kairos. Was this intentional or was that a typo?

I apologize if I missed a post about it before and this isn't a nitpicking thing, just curious because if so I would totally be okay with a ML4 Sorcerer Lord

[Khornestar]

I've only just started glancing through all of this, but as a Thousand Sons army player, the Tzeentch book is fantastic and makes me so excited to try it out if my buddies will let me.

I did have a question for you though. I noticed for the Sorcerer Lord, you have them at Psyker ML2 by default with the option to add 2 additional mastery levels for +25 points each. This would imply that the Sorcerer Lord can be upgraded to Psyker ML4 like Ahriman or Kairos. Was this intentional or was that a typo?

I apologize if I missed a post about it before and this isn't a nitpicking thing, just curious because if so I would totally be okay with a ML4 Sorcerer Lord

I hope it's intentional! Not like it isn't an extra 50 points of upgrades. I also notice that the Sorcerer Lord for T10G's "vanilla" CSM codex only has the option to become ML3, so maybe ML4 is to reflect the mastery of cowardly witchcraft magic that Tzeentch's favored so often display.

[CypherTheFallen]

Well I could see the Sorcerer Lord starting at ML1 with the option to upgrade or maybe starting at ML2 but only having 1 additional ML to upgrade to, which would reflect the extra juju that the followers of Tzeentch get pretty nicely. Either way, I'm okay with it but aside from this there are only 3 other characters in all of 40k that have ML4: The greatest psyker of the Eldar (Eldrad), the greatest human sorcerer of Tzeentch (Ahriman), and the most powerful greater daemon of Tzeentch (Kairos). That's a whole other level of psykers. Seems too good to be true.

[Khornestar]

Sure, but it's nice to have the option to create a powerful character from the ground up.

 

Oh, that guy? Bob the Wizard. Mightiest psyker in the galaxy.

[Hezirah]

Good to have bloodcrushers back. But aren't they too vulnerable to low ap attacks without invulnerable saves? They cost as twice as bikers too.

[Teetengee]

bloodcrushers have an invuln with the daemon rule: skull crushers don't, but have access to things like storm shields or the champ can take an aura
also, yes, the ML 4 was intentional, although may be subject to change, it was to represent the power of Tzeentch

 

also, T5 and 2 wounds are a large reason why the skull crushers are so expensive

I'll think about giving them aura of dark glory though

[Hezirah]

Oops. Yeah, I meant skullcrusher. Giving them aura would be nice.

 

I just finished Ruiners and Defilers. Everything looked great, but I'm not sure about the purpose of Hollowed wargear. Character becomes incredibly tough but can't  use a wing or bike. It's only significant movement is by a chance of rampant mutation. It also can't run since it has to be daemon of nurgle. I can't figure out a way to use it.

 

Also, I noticed that heralds can take close combat weapons like powerfists and stormshields. Is that on purpose? Nurgle herald with powerfist would look awesome on the tabletop.

 

Another thing: do you plan to include things like fire raptors and rapiers in the future?

[Teetengee]

Oops. Yeah, I meant skullcrusher. Giving them aura would be nice.

 

I just finished Ruiners and Defilers. Everything looked great, but I'm not sure about the purpose of Hollowed wargear. Character becomes incredibly tough but can't  use a wing or bike. It's only significant movement is by a chance of rampant mutation. It also can't run since it has to be daemon of nurgle. I can't figure out a way to use it.

 

Also, I noticed that heralds can take close combat weapons like powerfists and stormshields. Is that on purpose? Nurgle herald with powerfist would look awesome on the tabletop.

 

Another thing: do you plan to include things like fire raptors and rapiers in the future?

In reverse order.

I do plan on including them, I am just not sure how best to do it just yet, balancing them on top of everything else, and concerns about people being upset that an already highly flexible codex gets more flexible (because they don't use the IA's for their armies) have stopped me so far.

 

Yes, heralds taking those sorts of things was intentional, as they no longer have access to lesser/greater/exalted gifts.

 

The Hollowed seemed like it might be too powerful if I allowed some of the upgrades, I will have to think about how to modify it if it isn't possible to really use. Although: vehicle is probably a good way of delivering the Hollowed.

[CypherTheFallen]

I love the idea of ML4 for Tzeentch sorcerers. It just makes sense, but I see people being sour about it and wanting to say it's overpowered. Hopefully my meta won't mind because you've done a solid job with this and I might actually stand a chance of winning without relying HEAVILY on my current sorcerer getting Iron Arm and a lot of luck to survive the unavoidable onslaught after the rest of my army gets run over...

[Teetengee]

Well, if they complain and you agree to it, you of course have my permission to say only buy up to ML3 in that meta ;) (not that you need it). Although I would like to ask them to playtest it a couple times and report back just what the issues are with it so I can decide whether to make that change to the main codex. I don't play enough to catch every game breaking thing in my codices, I am just doing the best I can.


Also, I made a slight edit to the alternate demonolgy discipline so that summoned daemons can't assault out of summoning if the psyker also just arrived this turn

[CypherTheFallen]

Fair enough lol I don't forsee it being a gamechanger but still a nice bonus. I hope I can try it out after the holidays. I will definitely let you know how things go (hopefully with a full batrep.)

Also, just a comment on the Forbidden Knowledge Legacy, I like the option of getting more warp charges and I get the give and take you're going for but I just don't see the risk being worth it when I can just go with Profane Alterations and get a solid buff for the whole game with no drawbacks. Perils of the Warp are my worst enemy (as a side note I think it should be treated a little differently for all Chaos given their nature and relationship with the Warp, but that's a whole other topic) and I will avoid any additional risks as that's more of a threat than my opponent a lot of time.

Maybe if it was something where all psykers just get +1 per turn in general as a boost similar to additional mastery levels, etc. Or if that's a little overkill make it something where once or some other set amount of times per game they could choose to add +1 to their dice. I think that would make more sense if we're trying to represent expanded knowledge of the Warp.

Again, all theory at this point and maybe it seems like a bigger deal on paper than on the table, but that's just some more of my 2 cents

Edit: That may have turned more into wishlisting, but going from a 1/12 chance of perils to a 4/12 chance is no joke. Unless the rule means a result of double 5s or double 6s (making it a 2/12 chance) and not any combination of 5s and 6s. That's not as bad, but still enough to make me think twice.

[Teetengee]

it is the double chance, but I have found that it still is massively powerful in the right hands

still, if it troubles you, take a different legacy and spell familiars, perhaps your chaos sorcerers aren't doing the "risk everything for power thing"

remember though, that you don't always have to use that bonus, you choose before each cast attempt, so only use it on moments when you are really pushing

[Teetengee]

Hey folks, so I have a super incomplete copy of Warmachines and Auxiliaries up. It has lots of bloat from rules and units that won't actually appear in the codex and is also missing a ton of things. But hey, it has a couple HQ and Troops and some other stuff you can take though. So that means you could technically play a bound list with it, although it is missing more force org slots than it has, so have fun.

Still, I'd love some input on what exists so far.

[Carrack]

I really dig what you got so far. I went through it last night and made some notes on my initial thoughts. Please excuse my grammar and disorganization. I hope this helps.

 

 

Covenant of Tzentch seems a little OP. Rerolls on everything that only succeeds on a six. Does this extend to Armor saves, charge ranges, sweeping advances (escaping, or overrunning). To wound, to penetrate, and repairing rhinos? Maybe this needs limitations? I'm not sure.

 

Renegades: I like how you can make a big blob squad, which limits the msu capabilities of a platoon, so it seems like a fair trade off.

 

Icons for renegades make them more chaosy.

 

The points per model cost for armor and militia training, while fair, discourages taking big squads.

 

 

Why do mutants pay more for covenants?

 

Disciples being better marksmen makes more sense in a shooting army, and will be more useful.

 

The leadership bonuses for the champion/sergeant is more in line with how it works for every other army, which is good.

 

Heretek adepts are cool. Logically an army of the Dark Mechanicus should have more initiates then just its warlord. They definitely add a layer of depth to a themed list.

 

The cultist unit, adds variety. I would be tempted to take them as a more elite unit in this list, tricked out with marks, skills, and icons.

 

Chaos upgrades to vehicles make a lot more sense, than IG upgrades.

 

I'm not sure about adding havocs to the list. I think they would be better in an allied detachment. My reasoning is why havocs and not regular CSM ?

[Teetengee]

Firstly. not all the upgrades and options will be making the final cut. I haven't even looked at the vehicle upgrades (or most of the wargear, to be honest), although many will stay. Havocs won't be in the list, I just haven't done anything with that yet.

Mutants and renegades both pay the same for covenants.

Cultists (and several other things you mentioned), those were about my thoughts as well.

I'll think about the covenant of tzeentch. To be fair though, rhinos won't be getting access, and most of your points don't actually only succeed on a 6.