++From Hatred We Were Born, Creation of a 7.5 Chaos Codex++

[Spacefrisian]

Doesn't someone do exactly this about every 10 months on here?

These things are fun to do.

[Teetengee]

 

Doesn't someone do exactly this about every 10 months on here?

These things are fun to do.

 

And my friends are letting me play with it, which means at the very least, I am getting some real benefit out of it.

 

Also, adding gets hot to the haywire array, as a full unit of havocs would delete pretty much any vehicle, and I don't really know how to point cost that.

[Stormborn]

Would it be possible to do something similar to wolf guard with chosen (i.e. 0-20 chosen and use some in chosen squad and some as squad leaders) and make a 2nd level of hero (i.e. lord and exalted champion with sorceror, warpsmith, dark apostle as upgrades for each with a full access to all lords wargear + any essentials)?

[Teetengee]

To some extent there are 2 levels of each of the heroes, as each hero type can take a 2 wound or a 3 wound version, but the bonuses to the 3 wound version vary by type.

The main issue from combining all the selections is that certain upgrades are worth more points on some characters than others for example the veterans of the long war upgrade is worth far more to a unit with even WS than one with odd WS.

 

As for chosen, the unit champions have basically the same options as chosen, so I am not sure what splitting them off would do. Additionally, giving every chosen the option to upgrade whatever, although something I will entertain, seems more than is really necessary or useful right now. Plus I don't want chosen to necessarily overshadow everything else in the elites slot, not that it would, but you get my concerns.

Still, I will think about it, thanks for the ideas.

[Carrack]

I started making my list for tommorrow's battle. I'll post it when it's complete, but as a rough outline I intend to take;

 

A Terminator Despot as HQ.

A CSM squad tricked out with upgrades

A renegade squad or if points are pressing, cultist

3 Oblits run individually, 2 with MON, and one with tank hunters.

 

And my optional units that I would like to squeeze in would be a terminator retinue followed by a Helbrute.

 

 

 

 

Here is my initial assessment.

 

Positives

 

The options are amazing and I feel I can make dozens of effective list that capture the character of my forces.

 

The Warp Legacies rule and stubborn seem like they should have always been included in a Chaos codex.

 

The ability to take the Champion or Despot, as opposed to the more expensive Lord is great for my point levels (750). Likewise the other HQ options, seem a lot more viable.

 

Concerns

 

I am going to have a hard time not going overboard with upgrades and keeping my model count up.

 

The codex is much more complex than the official one. Overall this is a good thing, but for my first game I am a little worried about spending too much time consulting the book, which may cut into my playing time. I suppose this is unavoidable, and happens with every new codex.

 

I think it will be great fun, and hope it becomes a mainstay in my gaming.

[Teetengee]

Thank you so much for the updates.
I tend to agree with you that it is complex, but without stripping it of much that makes it interesting, I am not sure how to fix that.

Also, yes, the temptation to go overboard is there, and since I tried to price upgrades so that taking them is never an auto include or a "I would never pay that much" type deal, then you have to make sure when you take them that there is a reason. It makes the list building much more tactical I feel, but at the risk of "ooh shiny" syndrome.

Feel free to post here any questions that come up, and if I am around during your game I will answer what I can, if not, then at the least it will show me what needs to be clarified or streamlined.


Also, Mathhammer says that Haywire arrays are probably at least 2-4x as effective as lascannons against vehicles, so cost bumped to 35 (considering 40)  and 45 on the land raider. (They are not 2-4x as expensive because of shorter range, decreased versatility, and gets hot.)

[Teetengee]

reduced mutilator cost by 5, because 65 just seemed too much, even with their improvements.

[Teetengee]

So it looks like we lost some data here in the form of Carrack's battle report, which is a shame.

[Carrack]

So it looks like we lost some data here in the form of Carrack's battle report, which is a shame.

I save things in the notes ap of my phone, sometimes.

 

Sorry for the rambling post here, but I wanted to give you feedback on my first try with your codex. Pictures would have made this so much easier...

 

The Battle for the Breech: this was set up on a 4x4 table with an interesting terrain layout. Bisecting the table was a wall with a Terminator sized gap in its center. The wall had one staircase on each side and was wide enough for an Astartes to stand atop of, and high enough to block LOS for everything on the ground level, save my Helbrute. Jumping down from the wall was dangerous terrain. Each side of the wall had couple of two and three story buildings, that for the purpose of expediency, we only allowed rooftop access, which took a turn of movement to reach for infantry. One of these buildings per side was a three point objective, the breech was also a three point objective. Each side also had a little rubble field next to the breech. First Blood, Line Breaker, and Slay the Warlord were a point a piece.

 

The Black Maw Warband

 

Arch-Heretics legacy

 

Chaos Despot (MoK, Bloodfeeder, combi-melta, TDA). 180

 

Warlord trait: Ancient Warrior

Gift: +1 BS

 

Chaos Space Marines Squad Vinno

(Aspiring Champ with power sword, 5 extra CSM, true grit, MOK, Icon of Wrath) 205 (I just realized I had two unpaid for flamers in this unit)

 

Chaos Cultist (champ) 48

 

Obliterator (MoN) 81

Obliterator (tank Hunter) 85

 

Helbrute (heavy flamer, Daemonic Possession, Mutated Hull, Havoc Launcher) 152

 

751 total

 

 

6th Edition Iron Hands successors.

 

Captain (artificer, bike, storm shield, hammer)

 

Bike squad (2 grav guns, melta bombsp)

 

Tac squad (Lascannon, plasma gun, 5 extra marines)

 

Assault squad (2 flamers, power sword, melta bombs, 1 extra assault marine)

 

Sniper scouts (camp, sniper rifles, missile launcher)

 

 

Results. Loyalist win 8-5. He had his own objective and the breech+ slay the warlord and line breaker. I had my objective, first blood, and slay the warlord.

 

Battle analysis: the game wasn't as close as the score. He beat me on mobility. He got to the breach first with his Captain, and jumped the wall with his assault marines and I spent to much time chasing them. I charged the breech with my despot + CSM and killed him, only to take Razorback to the face. I should have gone at the breach with just my warlord or Helbrute and let my CSM climb over to his side of the wall and press him.

 

new codex unit performance.

 

The despot with the Bloodfeeder did an amazing amount of hits, enough to take down the Iron Hands Capt and then some. His warlord trait and legacy were redundant. (As we discussed, this required Arch-Heretics Legacy, loyalist opponents, and the Ancient Warrior Trait. I happened to hit all three of those criteria and got a bum trait, which happens to everyone from time to time. As far as his cost, I compared him to my standard GW codex terminator Axe of blind fury lord, and found the despot slightly less efficient at his point cost, however, the despot could benefit from the numerous further upgrades in your dex, vs the GW codex which does not have a lot of worthwile options)

 

The CSM were not played well by me, but they had the potential to destroy every unit he fielded. I did not use them to their potential, instead I was stuck with the idea of using them as a retinue at first. True grit was a waste without a rhino to hop out of.

 

The cultist stayed hidden and claimed my objective.

 

The Helbrute was great. AV 13 and 5++ make for some serious staying power at 750 points. He never got mad and shot his buddies up either :) I will ditch the havoc launcher in the future and try for the venerable upgrade.

 

Overall I enjoyed playing the codex, and will try again when I can.

 

One thing you might consider, in the Terminator weapon section, there is no price reduction for the dark blade, even though they are trading in a power weapon to get one. This may be by design, but I would have got one otherwise. (As you explained, terminator armored characters are more likely to save the self-inflicted wounds, so the cost should be the same because of a lack of drawback)

[Teetengee]

So I said most of this last time, but I figured it deserves repeating (even though I remember your responses, anyone else reading through this later might be helpful.)

Do you think the bloodfeeder was undercosted, or just about right?
Do you think that the warlord trait needs work?

Do you or your opponent have any suggestions for the codex?

 

As for the Darkblades on terminators. Because of the Daemonweapon rule, they are worth more on terminators with a 2+ save than they are on regular pa marines (at the very least Darkswords are, and axes as well because of the included invulnerable save). However the powersword that terminators lose also generates a discount, hence the 20 point cost in both cases.

[Carrack]

I think that the Bloodfeeder was costed right. The amount of AP2 +1 S hits at initiative warrants the high cost. I compared it to the Axe of Blind Fury, which does better on the charge and more strength, but has constant drawbacks.

 

The warlord trait was good, as I mentioned, for it to be negated I had to roll that trait, choose the Arch-Heretics legacy, and battle loyalist, I just hit the trifecta there and in my opinion there is always the chance that you get a bum warlord trait.

 

My opponent thought the Helbrute with possession and mutated hull was a little over the top. Part of this was because he has yet to switch to the newest space marine codex where 4 attacks is the norm. So he was facing a AV 13 Helbrute with a 5++ that hit twice as hard in combat as he expected. I didn't think it was that bad, as for similar points a Leman Russ has a battle cannon and AV 14 front (?). Then there is the crazed table as well, which makes it unpredictable.

[Teetengee]

Thank you.

As for the Hellbrute, I think that really will come down to an edition issue. Although I will investigate the stormshield space wolf dread for restrictions and such and keep that in mind. I may consider restricting the daemonic possession upgrade if it is a problem.

[Teetengee]

Changed how Expendable works to streamline gameplay.

[Teetengee]

Changed Melta Ram to something anyone might actually use.

[Teetengee]

adjusted the cutoff for greater costed soulgrinders but still under the cost for even a minimal land raider

[Teetengee]

Tons of changes, mostly to things related to Tzeentch in rules or in flavor (Formations, Rubrics, Forbidden Knowledge, etc.) Also, removed open topped from Dreadclaw and Stalker pod since in playtesting the stalker pod as a firing platform not only created rulesweird when the stalker pod was locked in cc but also it made it too strong as a firing platform for the cost.
Adjusted cost of mutated hull, dropped cutoff back to 120 barring future playtesting.

[Teetengee]

Sergeant tanking was too strong, so removed storm shields from single wound models. Adjusted Rad weapons to higher str better ap, but made rad contamination require a successful wound. Adjusted Rad Mortar point cost. Adjusted Rivener point cost. Adjusted some upgrades on the hellcrawler and dropped its attacks to 5. Removed the ability to get any better than a 4+ FNP. Adjusted the Banner of vengeance so it doesn't accidentally boost enemies., Adjusted Plague zombies to a 6+ fnp. Adjusted Crumbling cities to non jink cover saves. Adjusted Where Angels Fear to Tread to 6" bubble.

[Teetengee]

Also, dropped the contesting bonus from icon of vengeance because it doesn't seem right or to encourage aggressive gameplay.

[Teetengee]

Made some changes to the warp legacies to get the powers more in line with each other, (hopefully).

[Teetengee]

Increased the cost of khorne berzerkers by 1 point each to appropriately match their abilities, this may require additional increases.
Changed daemonweapons so they give the Specialist Weapon rule and therefore do not give +1 attack when paired with the pistol that all champions come standard with.

Also adjusted the points costs on some close combat weapons due to this change.

[Teetengee]

Made some more edits, mostly minor, (spawn mutations rule for instance needed a drop the lowest line).

[Teetengee]

Update the detachment restrictions on cult switches to troops to be a little more restrictive. (same detachment, and excluding the decurion)

[Teetengee]

reduced the helcult back down to 1 unit of cultists as it occured to me that having more than one would make fearless cultists at no extra cost to easy to obtain

also increased the cost of adding a cultist champion back to 10.

[Terminus]

A lot of broken nonsense in here. Removing psykers on a single leadership test (i.e. ~50/50 on a Ld10 guy), etc.? Ridiculous.

[Teetengee]

That is awfully negative, and not terribly constructive either.
Any more ridiculous than d strength weapons?

Plus (if you are referring to the heralds of the gods result) that rule already exists in a far more powerful form in the daemons book. I actually toned it down for this.