++From Hatred We Were Born, Creation of a 7.5 Chaos Codex++

[Teetengee]

Changed around the discipline access slightly, made it so that warp legacies aren't quite so flexible, adjusted the wording of the Gate tzeentch power.

This codex is starting to crystalize better, and as changes get less frequent, I will be branching out and adding in the supplements for the gods and other things. Right now it still is in need of further playtesting, and I would love if people would give it a try and let me know your results under a variety of different conditions.
Particularly, anything that is unfun or gamebreaking I want to know about, and anything that is unclear in wording or in intent.

On that note, I have been getting 2-3 games played with this per month, and most have been pretty fun.
For the first time I used one of the special characters, Abby, unfortunately I couldn't roll saves when I really needed to and my opponents got off some lucky shots. Plus I forgot to include a transport that could carry him, and he was footslogging surrounded by a mobile bunker of rhinos, so when they were broken up, he didn't at first have a unit to join. He took that Ctan Str D attack for 3 wounds on that turn and then took another wound due to mass firing before he could really bring his prodigious might to bear. That being said, I think he is probably appropriately costed, although I would like to see what it looks like when he hits the enemy hard before I really make that assessment.

[Teetengee]

Reworded Expendable, Reduced max ML to 3 on all but ahriman, reduced max bs to 5 on several characters and gave them a slight cost reduction

[Khornestar]

It's been a while since I've checked out the status of your 'dex, and I'm really liking the work you've done. If I had any time to play, I'd definitely give your book a shot.

[Teetengee]

Thank you.

 

Apparently I have inspired my friend to begin work on updating the Blood Angels dex too, which is fun and once that gets further I will likely ask for this topic to be moved and made into a compilation, or try to convince him to join the forum and post himself.

In any case, I think for this dex I will be testing out more of the special characters when I get a chance, and continue exploring the various options to see where it breaks down.

[Khornestar]

I noticed that their points went up across the board, but then I saw that they all appear to have 4 wounds and/or more special rules. Of course, it will tie in to everything else. Really wish I had the time to play. You seem to have given shooty, melee, and hybrid options quite a bit of traction.

[Teetengee]

yeah, I was trying to match the flexibility of the lore better, although part of me is afraid it is too flexible, I may end up partitioning things out into multiple dexes so that mix and match in the same army isn't quite the same
also yes, I made the lord options bigger and badder, with the old lord statlines being a different character, my reasoning was that the true chaos lords have likely been fighting others and sedition from within their own warbands for countless generations and therefore are the equals or even betters of loyalists (all for more points or at the loss of a few key abilites of course).

[Khornestar]

Fair trade-off, to me. If units are expensive they maybe a well be worth their points. Plus there are still cheaper options for HQs and bodies. Choices and lots of customizability, that is what CSM should be. Not constrained by dogmatic nonsense like their loyalist counterparts.

 

The Hellfiend (I think?) is particularly exciting. A Maulerfiend with a baleflamer would be sick!

[Teetengee]

Fair trade-off, to me. If units are expensive they maybe a well be worth their points. Plus there are still cheaper options for HQs and bodies. Choices and lots of customizability, that is what CSM should be. Not constrained by dogmatic nonsense like their loyalist counterparts.

 

The Hellfiend (I think?) is particularly exciting. A Maulerfiend with a baleflamer would be sick!

Daemonfiend, but yeah, i figured there was no particular reason for the forgefiend and maulerfiend to be separate entries. Which then allows for other options.

[Teetengee]

Increased the cost of the wrath icon for khorne berzerkers.

[Dr. Clock]

Given the considerable uptick in customization that your book allows for, it is certainly possible that your fear about flexibility is warranted.

 

You might, IMO, consider doing something like Chapter Tactics, where each detachment is forced to choose one mark and vet skill for availability. You could then shift the infantry Cult units into Troops, as only one kind would be available per detachment, which seems reasonable to me in general.

 

For people who really want all the flex in a single detachment, you could even include one more Legacy to make all the marks/vet skills available if that's the player's desire - something like 'Favoured of the Pantheon'.

This will force at least some opportunity cost decisions in selecting Marks/Skills, and will, I suspect lead to more themed armies with fewer seemingly random 'outlier'.

 

Generally, though... really good work, man. Someday I'm sure Khorne players will have a decent way to pull off assaults.

 

Speaking of... what's your opinion on adding flamers to Berzerkers? That's pretty high on my list, especially considering Skalathrax.

 

KILL MAIM BURN!

 

Cheers,

 

The Good Doctor.

[Teetengee]

Given the considerable uptick in customization that your book allows for, it is certainly possible that your fear about flexibility is warranted.

 

You might, IMO, consider doing something like Chapter Tactics, where each detachment is forced to choose one mark and vet skill for availability. You could then shift the infantry Cult units into Troops, as only one kind would be available per detachment, which seems reasonable to me in general.

 

For people who really want all the flex in a single detachment, you could even include one more Legacy to make all the marks/vet skills available if that's the player's desire - something like 'Favoured of the Pantheon'.

This will force at least some opportunity cost decisions in selecting Marks/Skills, and will, I suspect lead to more themed armies with fewer seemingly random 'outlier'.

 

Generally, though... really good work, man. Someday I'm sure Khorne players will have a decent way to pull off assaults.

 

Speaking of... what's your opinion on adding flamers to Berzerkers? That's pretty high on my list, especially considering Skalathrax.

 

KILL MAIM BURN!

 

Cheers,

 

The Good Doctor.

All of these are good suggestions, I will need to consider them heavily.

The main reason I didn't want to restrict the chapter tactic equivalent to certain marks was because different units from the different legions fell to different gods, but still had their fighting tactics coloured by what they used to have. I wanted that mix and match to be possible, but you are right that it might be too flexible. I will have to think more on this.

As for flamers on Khorne Berzerkers, I didn't think it was really something they needed or maybe even wanted, as it would be prone to pushing them out of assault range and to making it so their enemies won't live as a meat shield as well. Plus, their extreme effectiveness at ccw is partially balanced by the fact that they don't have the flexibility to do anything else. Additionally, flamers+opentopped vehicles could be problematic. I will consider it though.

[Dr. Clock]

I really like the '3 tiers' of upgrades, and think the basic design and costs are probably solid.

 

I like the idea of mixed-God warbands well enough, but I think putting some further limits on upgrade availability in discrete detachments/formations could open up room for more dynamic 'combined formation' rules to demonstrate how warbands that may actually be ENEMIES work on the table... My own Renegades' fluff is that they fell to Khorne in the process of fighting Tzeentch - one of whose Greater Daemons they now use to power a Daemonforge, which they worship (it's technically a Daemon Prince itself). Having the ability to 'enthrall' one detachment to another in some way could be sweet, but without significant limitations on the variety of special rules available in a given formations/detachment, you lose out on SOME of the 'game' you can create for the player in selecting and prioritizing formations in a single Battleforged army...

 

Anyway... am very much considering some playtesting of this for Nurgle vs. Khorne.

 

Cheers,

 

The Good Doctor.

[Teetengee]

Thank you, I will take it into consideration. Also please let me know how it goes if you do end up playtesting out Nurgle vs Khorne.

[Teetengee]

Changed blood and sand's rampage rule to rerolling failed charge ranges because that much rampage seemed a little too powerful.
Increased the cost of the Icon of Wrath in many units due to the weapons those units are or can be equipped with making it too much of an autoinclude.

[Teetengee]

Also to deal with the too flexible issue, I am going to either yank the cult troops or restrict them to only elites in the main book when I create the god books for this project.
Additionally, plague zombies will probably do the same. I also may end up removing the god specific special characters and adding in some from some of the more undivided legions in to take their place. (Belakor (Or maybe a different daemon prince, such as Periclitor), a War(p)smith (Honsou?), a dark apostle (Erebus?), and a Raptor lord (some night lord likely), I would love to find a character to use for alpha legion, but I don't know much about them and who would be appropriate)

[Khornestar]

In light of the current power creep of official codices, I don't really see flexibility as a problem in a game full of crazy nonsense.

 

As for moving cult troops/marked heroes around, that could be cool since they'll end up in their themed books. Other than the generic CSM characters which can be unmarked I've always wanted to see something named/more impressive. Other than the Dark Master, of course.

[Thedarkprincesnun]

This looks like a pretty good book so far keep up the good work

[Teetengee]

Thanks, I'll do my best. And please anyone who can, try a game or two, or even just try writing up lists with it that you don't plan on playing with and posting them here, I want to see how someone who is not myself would use the book.

[Khornestar]

I wrote an 1850 list which I don't believe breaks any rules, and a few comments after the list entry:

 

HQ:

 

Chaos Lord: Arch-Heretics Warp Legacy, Mark of Khorne, Juggernaut of Khorne, Sigil of Corruption, Bloodfeeder, Personal Icon (225 points)

 

TROOPS:

 

Chaos Space Marines x5: Arch-Heretics Warp Legacy, Trade bolters for CCW, Mark of Khorne, Aspiring Champion, Darkblade (Axe) [on regular marine], Rhino: Assault Modifications, Dirge Caster (170 points total)

 

Chaos Space Marines x5: Arch-Heretics Warp Legacy, Trade bolters for CCW, Mark of Khorne, Aspiring Champion, Darkblade (Axe) [on regular marine], Rhino: Assault Modifications, Dirge Caster (170 points total)

 

Khorne Berzerkers x5: Arch-Heretics Warp Legacy, Skull Champion, Darkblade (Sword) [on champion], Powerfist [on a Berzerker], Dreadclaw: Dirge Caster (215 points total)

 

Khorne Berzerkers x5: Arch-Heretics Warp Legacy, Skull Champion, Darkblade (Sword) [on champion], Powerfist [on a Berzerker], Dreadclaw: Dirge Caster (215 points total)

 

FAST ATTACK:

 

Hellblade: Helstorm Autocannons (115 points total)

Hellblade: Helstorm Autocannons (115 points total)

Spawn x5: Arch-Heretics Warp Legacy (170 points total) <== joined by Chaos Lord

 

HEAVY SUPPORT:

 

Daemonfiend: Siege Crawler, Baleflamer, 2x Magma Cutter, Dirge Caster (150 points total)

Daemonfiend: Siege Crawler, Baleflamer, 2x Magma Cutter, Dirge Caster (150 points total)

Havocs: Arch-Heretics Warp Legacy, 4x Meltagun, Drop Pod: Melta Ram (155 points total)

 

Comments:

1. Dirge Caster: codex points increase from 5 to 10. Initially I didn't like this increase, but since it's available on more vehicles as an upgrade, 5 points would have been quite the auto-include army wide, and for me it still is at 10 points, but that is a fair price to pay to more or less completely shut down overwatch. In this list 60 points went toward Dirge Casters on 6 vehicles.

 

2. Hellblade: Baleful Aberration: Why was the 5++ removed from this rule? Armor 10 all around, IMO the invuln was by no means too powerful.

 

3. Dozer Blade: points increase from 5 to 10. Also curious about this point increase. I don't really see this one the same way I do the Dirge Caster. The only difference is that in your book walkers can take it, which is good because they perhaps suffer most from being immobilized. IMO making it a 10 point upgrade for walkers and 5 for lesser vehicles seems more appropriate.

[Teetengee]

I wrote an 1850 list which I don't believe breaks any rules, and a few comments after the list entry:

 

-snip-

 

Comments:

1. Dirge Caster: codex points increase from 5 to 10. Initially I didn't like this increase, but since it's available on more vehicles as an upgrade, 5 points would have been quite the auto-include army wide, and for me it still is at 10 points, but that is a fair price to pay to more or less completely shut down overwatch. In this list 60 points went toward Dirge Casters on 6 vehicles.

 

2. Hellblade: Baleful Aberration: Why was the 5++ removed from this rule? Armor 10 all around, IMO the invuln was by no means too powerful.

 

3. Dozer Blade: points increase from 5 to 10. Also curious about this point increase. I don't really see this one the same way I do the Dirge Caster. The only difference is that in your book walkers can take it, which is good because they perhaps suffer most from being immobilized. IMO making it a 10 point upgrade for walkers and 5 for lesser vehicles seems more appropriate.

Firstly, thank you for the list, out of curiousity what would you add to expand it or reduce it in points?

 

To the comments.

1. The increased availability of it, plus the fact that assault transports are now widely available seems to make them more worthwhile. Additiionally, the larger ammount of rules being released that positively modify overwatch seems to warrant an increase for something that completely negates it.

 

2. Since I changed how daemonic possession works (it now gives the Daemon rule instead of its previous effect, which has been absorbed by Parasitic Possession), they still have the 5++ as they have Daemonic Possession. Not a removal, just a format change on the 5++.

 

3. Dozer blades I feel are very strong, and that was why I had the points increase, particularly in an army that is so centered around close assaults, the ability to usually ignore terrain makes it very important in tightly packed areas. As for walkers, don't they already ignore terrain for the most part due to the brb?

[Thedarkprincesnun]

I'd try and make a list but it won't load on my phone

[Khornestar]

Ah I didn't catch the Daemonic Possession thing. That's cool, then.

 

I'll think about an expansion to my list for 2500 points.

[Thedarkprincesnun]

Providing my Internet stops playing up il try making a list later

[Khornestar]

Here's the 2500 list. Changes in yellow.

 

HQ:

 

Chaos Lord: Arch-Heretics Warp Legacy, Mark of Khorne, Juggernaut of Khorne, Sigil of Corruption, Bloodfeeder, Personal Icon (225 points)

 

TROOPS:

 

Chaos Space Marines x8: Arch-Heretics Warp Legacy, Trade bolters for CCW, Mark of Khorne, Aspiring Champion, Darkblade (Axe) [on regular marine], Rhino: Assault Modifications, Dirge Caster (212 points total)

 

Chaos Space Marines x8: Arch-Heretics Warp Legacy, Trade bolters for CCW, Mark of Khorne, Aspiring Champion, Darkblade (Axe) [on regular marine], Rhino: Assault Modifications, Dirge Caster (212 points total)

 

Khorne Berzerkers x8: Arch-Heretics Warp Legacy, Skull Champion, Darkblade (Sword) [on champion], Powerfist [on a Berzerker], Dreadclaw: Dirge Caster (275 points total)

 

Khorne Berzerkers x8: Arch-Heretics Warp Legacy, Skull Champion, Darkblade (Sword) [on champion], Powerfist [on a Berzerker], Dreadclaw: Dirge Caster (275 points total)

 

ELITES:

 

Helbrute x1: Arch-Heretics Warp Legacy, Twin-Linked Lascannon, Missile Launcher, Mutated Hull (145 points total)

Helbrute x1: Arch-Heretics Warp Legacy, Twin-Linked Lascannon, Missile Launcher, Mutated Hull (145 points total)

Chaos Terminators x3: Arch-Heretics Warp Legacy, Mark of Khorne, Veteran Skill: Hit and Run, 3x Storm Shield, Champion Power Axe, 2x Chainfist [on regular terminators] (156)

 

FAST ATTACK:

 

Hellblade: Helstorm Autocannons (115 points total)

Hellblade: Helstorm Autocannons (115 points total)

Spawn x5: Arch-Heretics Warp Legacy (170 points total) <== joined by Chaos Lord

 

HEAVY SUPPORT:

 

Daemonfiend: Siege Crawler, Baleflamer, 2x Magma Cutter, Dirge Caster (150 points total)

Daemonfiend: Siege Crawler, Baleflamer, 2x Magma Cutter, Dirge Caster (150 points total)

Havocs: Arch-Heretics Warp Legacy, 4x Meltagun, Drop Pod: Melta Ram (155 points total)

 

Commentary:

 

 

1. Made units of 8 to please Khorne

 

2. Helbrutes for some long-range transport cracking. I very much like the Mutated Hull upgrade on these guys. Just what the doctor ordered. Crazed really does screw around with 'em though. TBH I preferred it when they lost a hull point rather than a default roll. I can deal with it, though.

 

3. Terminators were taken as an interesting/mess around choice. I think the unit itself is effective. Maybe I'd replace storm shields with combi-plasmas? I dunno.

 

 

*edit*

 

Here are my thoughts on what roles I expect each unit to play, and whatever thoughts I have about them:

 

 

Warp Legacy: Given the volume of attacks and mobility of many of these units, both Hatred and Crusader seemed very useful.

 

1. Lord: The primary beatstick of the army, designed to go toe-to-toe with opponents who can't instant kill him unless they are equal or greater in points value and he can actually hurt them. On his own he is quite reasonably survivable: T5, 5 wounds thanks to the Juggernaut, and 3+/4++ saves. He has synergy with the spawn, and will make good use of Crusader from the Arch-Heretics Warp Legacy. In addition, the volume of attacks he puts out make the Hatred aspect of the warp legacy absolutely brutal. For his first round of attacks, he will only "miss" on 2's.  4 attacks base + 1 Mark of Khorne + 1 Juggernaut =6 + 4-12 = 10-24 attacks, 11-25 on the charge (assuming no 1's from Bloodfeeder). As long as he gets to strike at least simultaneously with the opponent, there is a very reasonable chance he'll kill what he's swinging at. His personal icon is a beacon which the Terminators, Drop Pod, or 2 Dreadclaws can use to block LOS if necessary and position units appropriately.

 

2. Chaos Space Marines: Relatively cheap screening units to zoom alongside the Lord + Spawn and Maulerfiends. The Darkblade axe is hidden because I don't want him to get challenged out of the unit as it would be able to if taken on the champ and he gets killed before I1. It's still possible for the whole unit to be wiped before I1, but proper positioning will see the Darkblade axe at the rear of the unit so he piles in once his buddies are killed (or they survive, if I'm lucky). Naked champ so he can occupy the enemy squad leader, who is most likely (I'd wager) to have weapons which will threaten the rest of the unit. Assault vehicle upgrade for obvious reasons, as with Dirge Caster. If either Rhino survives long enough to see the Lord charge, it will save him and the spawn from overwatch, which have a decent likelihood of taking wounds off the spawn.

 

3. Berzerkers: More expensive melee fighters, still ObSec due to the lord having a MoK. Dreadclaw for extra protection added maneuverability and positioning. Either both come in on turn 1 or 1 comes in with the havoc pod. Depends on the opponent. Darkblade sword on the champ so he can kill as many opponents as possible along with the champion he's fighting. Even if he goes down he'll do plenty of damage and have an extra AP3 attack which a hidden sword wouldn't have. Hidden fist for vehicles/splattering.

 

4. Hellblades: Anti-air. 6 Twin-linked S7 rending shots each and re-rolling 1's to pen against the chosen flyer are great.  A threat to just about any flyer as long as they get to shoot before they die. Flyers will likely focus on bringing these down rather than killing my infantry, lest they put themselves at risk. Both Hellblades shooting a single flyer per turn gives me a reasonable chance to kill it. AV12 will be more of a struggle, but due to their ability to reposition it's possible to get into a side or even rear arc with some luck and planning.

 

5. Spawn: Best retinue for the lord. Mobile, tough, multi-wound, and put out a large number of attacks. Hatred thanks to the warp legacy makes up for their low WS. Along with the Lord they will basically annihilate most units of infantry if they fight it out for a few turns. It would have to be a very big horde to survive their volume of S5 attacks and the lord's spilled-out challenge wounds.

 

6. Daemonfiends: Maulerfiends with Baleflamers. Fists and Magma Cutters to do their thing against vehicles, and the Baleflamer to take out swathes of infantry if they want to charge them, or have a strong overwatch if they are charged by them. Adds some versatility to an otherwise single-purpose unit. Can also inflict some wounds against occupants of light transports before ripping the things apart. 

 

7. Havocs: Meltas in a pod, very straightforward. Melta ram for additional threat to vehicles or to instant-kill multi-wound S4 things like Crisis Suits/Broadsides which otherwise could annihilate the unit with Interceptor as soon as they jump out of the pod. Precision drop is possible thanks to the Lord's icon. Turn 2 would be best for that purpose. Turn 1 if necessary.

 

8. Helbrutes: Iffy as long-range support, but statistically they should get to shoot. AV13 front/side armor is going to save them from the usual quick death that is all but guaranteed.

 

9. Terminators: Storm shields are the crucial upgrade that make them worthwhile. The unit is capable of hurting just about anything they go up against, if they survive long enough to hit. Hit & Run will give them the opportunity to gain extra attacks or break away to reposition. I admit it doesn't make a whole lot of sense on a slow unit like Terminators, but White Scars get it with no stipulations, so we should too.

 

[Atia]

soooooo

well xD

haven't had the time to read through the thread yet, but i realy like the idea =)

*looks at my liber chaotica*

hm

i think we can rock that thing ^^