++From Hatred We Were Born, Creation of a 7.5 Chaos Codex++

[Khornestar]

I added some unit analysis/thoughts to my 2500 list above.

[Teetengee]

Thanks a ton Venomlust, I may try running that list if I get a chance. I really love to see how other people think about it.

[Khornestar]

My pleasure! I wish I had the pods so I could try it myself.

[Teetengee]

I have a very proxy friendly meta (paperhammer ftw) so it helps with these sorts of things.

[Khornestar]

That makes sense. I'm sure my buddies would be more or less cool with it too. However, I just can't shake the feeling if I use homebrewed units and end up beating them then the fandex will be deemed cheesy and forever seen as a crutch and resented. I think what it really boils down to is that they see the current power level of CSM as totally acceptable, and stuff like Tau/Eldar/Space Marines as over the top. Although there are a couple of other CSM players, so I'll share your book with 'em and see what they think.

[Teetengee]

Thank you.

[Teetengee]

Dissallowed any flyers or drop pods to take mutated hull, changed dreadclaws around significantly, as well as drop pods a bit.

[Teetengee]

Do people think that the chaos altar should have access to the various stronghold assault upgrades such as comms relays or similar?

[Teetengee]

Reduced cost of Dozer blade to 5 points because of the cost of siege shields making me realize everything will be out of whack otherwise.

[Teetengee]

Upgraded the Phosphor cannon to two shots as it compared very unfavorably with the demolisher cannon.

Changed Daemon of tzeentch so the rerolls of 1 on saving throws would not apply to 2+ saves, as rerollable 2+ are cheese that I don't really want to perpetuate.

[Teetengee]

Since the Traitors and Heretics List seems to have coalesced more or less into a functional codex (even though it is still very much open to changes and will continue to change due to playtesting and advice) I am now moving on to Khorne.
A link for that codex will be up when I can get it there.

[Khornestar]

Woohoo! Looking forward to it.

[Teetengee]

Hidden Content

Wargear The number indicates the price per model of the upgrade. Where two prices are listed, the second is the price for multiwound models. When two prices are listed for Vehicle equipment the first price is for models with a base point cost (all points before items from this list) of 125 points or lower and the second is for all vehicles with a greater base point cost.

Hand Weapons

Models may exchange any weapon for one of:

Chainaxe 3/8

Great Weapon 1/8

Heavy Chainsword 2/12

Close Combat Weapons

Models may exchange any weapon for one of:

Axe of Khorne 25/30

Barb-Hook Lash 10/15

Daemonblade 12

Darkblade 20/30

Eviscerator 20/25

Excoriator Chainaxe 15/20

Lightning Claw 15

-Pair replacing two weapons 18/20

Meltabombs* 5

Meteor Hammer 12/17

Plasma Pistol 10/15

Power Falx 20/25

Powerfist 20/25

Power Scourge 10/15

Power Weapon 10/15

Thunderhammer 25

Stormshield -/30

Warp Pistol 10

Special Weapons

Models may exchange a single ranged weapon for:

Bolter 1

Combi-Bolter 2/3

Combi-Flamer,-Melta,-Plasma 5

Warpgun 10/20

Flamer 5

Meltagun 10

Plasma Gun 15

 

Terminator Weapons

Models may exchange any weapon for one of:

Axe of Khorne 20/25

Barb-Hook Lash 5/10

Chainfist 12/15

Combi-Flamer,-Melta,-Plasma 5

Daemonblade 7/10

Darkblade 20/30
Excoriator Chainaxe 10/20

Lightning Claw 7

-Pair, replacing two weapons 10/14

Meteor Hammer 7/15

Power Falx 20/25

Powerfist 7/10

Power Scourge 10/15

Stormshield 10/30

Thunderhammer 10/15

Gifts

Models may take any of:

Aura of Dark Glory 15

Bionics 10

Brass Collar of Khorne 15

Combat Familiar 15

Gift of Mutation 10

Ichor Blood 5/10

Special Issue Wargear

Models may take any of:

Chaos Bike P 20

Jumppack/Wings P 15

Khornate Icon 10

Sigil of Corruption 25

Juggernaut of Khorne P 35

Veteran Skills

Counterattack 2/8
Furious Charge 2/10
Hit and Run 3/35

Infiltrate 3/15
Monster Hunters 2/10
Move through Cover 2/10
Scout 3/15
Skilled Riders 2/10
Stealth 2/20

Tank Hunters 2/10

 

Vehicle Equipment

Models may take any of:

Assault modifications^ 15/45

Daemonic Possession 15/30

Destroyer Blades 15

Dozer Blade 5

Dirge Caster 10

Extra Armour 10

Mutated Hull^ 20/40

Pintle Combi-Bolter^ 5

Pintle Combi-Flamer,-Melta,-Plasma^ 10

Pintle Havoc Launcher^ 12

Parasitic Possession 15

Paralytic Emanations 10

Warpflame Gargoyles 10

Relics

Only one of each of the following may be included in a single army. Models may exchange any weapon for one of:

Armour of Unrelenting Bloodlust 35

Axe of Blind Fury 35

Bloodfeeder 45

Headtaker 30

Talisman of Burning Blood 20

Banner of Infinite Bloodshed P 55

 

*These may be taken in addition to weapons rather than replacing them.

^These may not be taken by Heldrakes, Hellblades, or Chaos Drop Pods of any type.
Items marked with a P may not be taken by a Daemon Prince or Bloodthirster.

Well here, have a teaser.

[Khornestar]

Me likey! All the chain weapons sound exciting.

[Teetengee]

so, rudiments of the khorne list are now up, and in doing so I made a couple points adjustments in the parent dex as well:
Here it is.
Servants of Blood

 

It still needs

-Daemons

-Formations to be fixed, as the current ones are just not right

-Allies Matrix

-Summary

And, I may end up doing some sort of oaths thing

[Khornestar]

I still need to read it over a couple of more times and process things.

This applies to CSM in general, and by extension both of your dexes: something that stands out a bit (has nothing to do with your creation) is that the Reaper Autocannon needs some help, especially on certain platforms. I think the weapon itself is decent, but I'm not quite sure how to fix it vs. a standard autocannon, which I'd probably take instead in almost every situation given the option. Though, for CSM, the two don't overlap very often. After writing my analysis, I think maybe it's less about changing the stats of the weapon itself than it is the points cost on the units that can take it.

Terminators: I don't think I'd ever spend 25 points on a Reaper Autocannon in any situation. Chances are I'd be arriving via Deep Strike or Land Raider, so 36" range on a weapon isn't necessary. Then, I consider what I would be shooting at. In just about every situation I'd rather take a combi-melta or combi-plasma on a terminator, because I won't be plinking away at infantry with 4+ saves with a unit of terminators, I'll be attempting to threaten something very tough. Even if I did want to shoot at infantry, I could spend no additional points and make use of rapid-firing combi-bolters. For the reaper itself, 25 points just isn't worth it. Perhaps 15?

- As an aside, maybe allow Chaos Terminators to take a multi-melta? If the reaper is this big bad weapon which requires mounting on a vehicle or tactical dreadnought armor, the multi-melta should be more than appropriate. Loyalist devastators in power armor can take them, actually, though they aren't Slow & Purposeful. ~20 points for a Multi-melta could be nice.

Helbrute: For 5 points, I think a reaper is actually a decent enough upgrade from a Multi-melta to replace close-range with mid-range shooting. Combined with a missile launcher you have a pretty reasonably-priced shooty walker that won't be cracking Land Raiders but can threaten most light/mid vehicles. I see no reason to ever take a TL heavy bolter for the same cost as the reaper. IMO that should be a free replacement for the Multi-melta, a la Contemptors.

Rhino: Unique to your book, 20 point upgrade and reduces transport capacity by 4. If I could wager a guess I'd say you based that price on the loyalist Razorback. I don't think there's anything to be done, in this case. In the interest of fairness that is the perfect cost for it. Since it is essentially the same as swapping a TL heavy bolter for the reaper, this is fine.

Hellblade: A very balanced unit, IMO. Two reapers/helstorm autocannons are a great loadout for this thing. Maybe the option to take missiles? I dunno, doesn't need to be fiddled with TBH.

Hellcrawler: Reaper is good. Good basic loadout.

Predator: For this one, I think An autocannon/reaper swap should be free, trading 1 fewer shot and 12" range for twin-linked. I think that's a very fair trade. At 10 points I'd keep the extra range/shot every time to stay away from meltas and plasmaguns. Though it's tough to find the right partner (for me, not really a problem) for the autocannon. S7 Heavy 3 is versatile, but any sponson choice is pretty specialized. Heavy bolters/havoc launchers for mid/long-range anti-infantry, warpguns as a decent middle of the road but only half the range of the autocannon, and lascannons as anti-armor and the same range. I'd probably take the lascannons. I'd probably replace the turret with TL lascannons too, while I'm at it. I dunno, I just don't like the Predator all that much other than the tri-lascannon build. Squadrons kinda shake things up, not sure what I'd do with that.

Land Raider: I think you've done a bang-up job on this unit. Things seem pretty well-rounded. Reapers would be decent enough for sponsons, but with two we're at 220 points. If I'm moving flat out to rush assault units into position, I think I'd just forego any sponson upgrades and just take it with a dozer blade and dirge caster.

- If I wanted to run it as a shooting platform, I like the idea of extra armor, 4 lascannon sponsons, replace the TL heavy bolter with TL missile launcher, and the Crumbling Cities legacy. Park it behind an ADL and open fire.

[Teetengee]

Servants of Blood Dex now has Daemons
Still missing:
-Lords of War

-Special Characters
-Formations/Detachments

-summaries

-cleanup

Still thinking about loci and oaths
also, the warp legacy blood and sand and arch heretics might need some balancing

[Teetengee]

-snip-

Reaper Autocannon

-snip-

First, the autocannon doesn't have an extra shot over the reaper autocannon, just extra range

Second, I will look into points cost for this weapon definitely.

 

EDIT: Definitely agree on the terminator cost, I have dropped it to 15 points

 

 

other thoughts:

brutes get access to a twin heavy bolter, not just a single, otherwise I would agree that the points aren't quite equivalent

land raider cost just doesn't seem right at less than 20 for reliable s7 shooting, but I will think about it

you are right on about the "rhino"

Ill consider a 5 point drop in the pred, but I am still leery of too large a change.

[Khornestar]

Haha goes to show you how often I use an autocannon. Thought it had 3 shots for some reason, they clearly don't, as you say.

 

Some of my comments come down to personal choice more than anything, but weapon synergy for the unit definitely plays a big role for me determining what I'm going to purchase as additional upgrades.

 

*edit*

It may not surprise you but I love the Skullcrushers. This is simply a unit that must exist.

 

Cost: Too much, IMHO. I'm comparing them to Thunderwolf Cavalry. The units obviously don't have to be identical, but they are analogs. Compared to TWC, they have -1S, -1A, lack "free" Rending/Acute Senses/Counter Attack/ATSKNF, trading those for +1 WS, Stubborn, and Fearless and 45 points of additional cost. In addition, the TWC can take a melee weapon upgrade on every model. A naked unit of TWC is totally effective against a wide range of targets due to +1S and Rending, but the Skullcrushers need to take upgrades to do anything effectively. I think a good argument could be made that TWC are too cheap, but that doesn't help us here. I can't see a reason to justify the current Skullcrushers being more points than TWC at all.

 

- Banner of Blood is great on this unit. On infantry it's iffy for me, because if they're farther away than 8" they can't attempt to use it and thus get the bonus in combat. Doesn't necessarily need to be factored in, but Arch-Heretics legacy makes this totally redundant, other than the template (which isn't insignificant, just pointing it out).

- Banner of Fury: The unit already has Furious Charge. The other effect is very nice, especially in combination with Fleet since they're cavalry. They should essentially never fail a charge. Awesome! Perhaps a 5 point reduction to account for the redundancy? Similar to the way current CSM codex Berzerkers have a reduction since they, too have FC. 

- Icon of Wrath: No issue, looks great.

 

- Hand weapons: Cool but pricy due to the upgrade costs for multi-wound models; I don't think I'd ever take these. 

- Melee weapons: Perhaps 1 per 3 rule should only apply to Daemonblades/Darkblades? Those are the only ones that would seem sorta obscene given 3 in a unit of 3.  

 

*edit 2*

 

As a separate but related thought, what do you think about Juggernauts also conferring AP2 to their Hammer of Wrath attacks? Given their paltry comparison to Thunderwolves, just something I was thinking of to balance the two out. A charging juggernaut should definitely cause more damage than, say, a bike.

[Teetengee]

Haha goes to show you how often I use an autocannon. Thought it had 3 shots for some reason, they clearly don't, as you say.

 

Some of my comments come down to personal choice more than anything, but weapon synergy for the unit definitely plays a big role for me determining what I'm going to purchase as additional upgrades.

I definitely agree.

[Teetengee]

Looked at your comments
Noticed that they were paying the increased costs for equipment (not my original intent, but I think I can work with it rather than do a weird exception)

Looked at thunderwolf cav

Dropped the cost of Bloodcrushers and Skullcrushers significantly (37 and 40ppm now) but left the cost of upgrades the same.

Also gave every model access to ccw


note: The reason the banners are 25/20/25 is because as cavalry they have a 20 point move, which makes their teleport homer aspect much more effective(i.e. 15+5 for speed+5 for fancy weapons-5 for redundancy)

[Khornestar]

They're looking spot on to me right now.

[Teetengee]

Removed the once only restriction on the reroll to wound for the banner of blood.

[Carrack]

I gave it a brief read at work, and will look at it more thoroughly at home. One unit that popped out at me was Possessed. I like the idea of running them with 1 point great weapons for str 6, 7 on the charge at initative, and with no loss of attack because they don't normally carry pistols. Plus, I could throw in a pair of warp pistols for some shooting. They are pricey for sure, but I think what you have done is finally solved my dilemma of the Possessed, cool models that I don't want to play.

[Teetengee]

Thanks Carrack.

also, reduced cost of axe of khorne by 5 points across the board, as it just isn't worth more than a power fist.