[HH1.0] Mechanicum Tactica

[Reclusiarch Darius]

^ you will find a single Arlatax surprisingly inept at sweeping units. Vorax are brutal at range and in melee, combination of both makes them excellent. Vultarax are a completely different beast.

 

>taking lone Arlatax

I'm forced to at 1500pts, but after that they're always in two-man Maniples for that exact reason. Also, I run Scoria at 2,000pts+ so Rite of the Beast fixes their WS4 somewhat. Plus arc scourge and Rite of Fury from the other two Domini, they should be fine. Playtesting, they get bogged down in bigger infantry blobs, but TDA and vehicles get mulched just fine. I5 base, I6 with 'Beast' mode is really good. WE Inductiarii and anything with lots of high Strength attacks do hurt them, but they trade pretty well. Definitely thin out enemy squads first with Castellax and Thanatars before charging though. 

Arlatax are almost in the same boat as Thallax. They are limited to WS4, which means half of their attacks just disappear when they fight marines and youre rarely sweeping anything with just a couple casualties. You're killing a couple a turn at best and are unable to challenge out the powerfists or axes that will be knocking wounds off of you. I've actually been switching out my Arlatax posse for more Ursarax the more I play with them. Recent games I've been using the Homonculex and that's it. 

 

Er...do you own the same Red Book as me? 

Arlatax: WS4, I5 in Cybernetica (where else would you run it), S9 AP2 claw attacks or S7 Armourbane Shred Rampage attacks

Thallax: WS3, I2, S5/7 with chainblade, needs Ferrox and the charge to do anything. 

Use Scoria to fix their WS4 if its a huge issue. Rite of Fury on both is usually enough though. 

Ive heard this opinion on Thallax before and I'm not terribly sure where it comes from. Are you bouncing small units of them off big marine units? Because I've had great experiences with Ferroxi, piling into elite units (especially legion Terminators), taking a single models worth of wounds, then killing off plenty to win the combat. The single bad experience I've had with them are against a regular imperial fist player I game with, and that's just because he loves his medusas and Typhon. I can't overstate how awesome it is to take five powerfist wounds in the face and only lose a single model. 

 

Comes from watching S10 AP2 Large Blasts delete Thallax and Ursarax at will. Even assuming you're not encountering SA Dracosans or Legion Medusas locally, AP4 deletes both units pretty rapidly. Also, whilst powerfists don't ID them, plenty of dangerous melee units go first against both units and I've never won melee with either (Ursarax usually get hated on hardcore so only remnants make it into melee if at all). Plus, although Stubborn, neither are Fearless and if they lose melee they typically get swept (I2 sucks). I've also had them fail tests from shooting casualties and run off table. 

What kinds of marksman vets have you been playing? Can I get some of those loaded dice at least? Combi-vets are not wiping maniples of anything, much less Castellax. Math-wise, even with a full squad with combi-plasma, you're doing 5 or 6 wounds. You'd also be paying 100pts for combi weapons and for a dreadclaw (save orbital assaults or Ravens). 

 

They delete Thanatars just fine, and I lose most of a Castellax Maniple to them on average. Then they just use other firepower to finish them off. Yeah it was with drop pods Turn 1 so probably Orbital Assault. Or he was taking the pods as Fast Attack? Nah not Dreadclaws, just regular cheap pods. 

But you know how to fix droppod anything hella quick for a Mech player? Pay 15pts for a Cyber Ocularis, park his dinky ass right next to your Castellax posse or a Thanatar and delete whatever poor bastard squad that tries to scuff your paintwork with an alpha strike.

 

The one upgrade Domini and Arch-Domini aren't able to get :^) so I have to pay for a Magos Prime first. Mind you, I'm already considering it because of the no-scoring issue in Cybernetica. Enginseer Troops are okay. And the Macrotek does unlock another Fortification. I'm probably going to go VSG with 3x shields. 

S10 power fists are cute and all... but I can have a Destructor posse with a rad grenade Magos for that... or just Reductor Medusas to do it from a distance.  If armor is the problem, we have way better and more immediate answers for that as well.  Punching Spartans to death doesn't help much since by turn 2 or 3 that you are doing so, it has already performed its primary goal of delivering a nasty melee unit into your lines.

 

Yeah and Vultarax are cheaper and kill Spartans/annoying high AV targets early as Turn 1. I've already pre-ordered two. Can't wait for the salt of my local SA player. His Malcador is going to burn.

Does anyone else have any experience with the Arlatax, Ursarax and Vorax? I'm looking to add 2 of these units in the army I'm about to buy. 1 Fast Attack is taken by the Vultarax so I've got 2 slots left for some Close Combat units (the rest of the army is shooty of course).

 

Arlatax are the best choice by far, assuming you're in Legio Cybernetica. Two maniples of two with arc scourges would be ideal, but adjust accordingly if you're playing smaller games. 

All the models are cool, I'm running Cyrbernetica which makes the Cortex units viable and maybe more appropriate than the Ursarax. But if the Vorax are really bad, I could go for the others. Vorax don't seem the best CC choice but they do seem to be the more flexible choice because of their shooting output and the models are cool.

I'm not looking to get the best of the best, but I do want something that won't regret me buying those specific models.

 

If you're running Legio Cybernetica, you basically ignore everything in the book that isn't either a Dominus or doesn't have a Cybernetica Cortex. As I mentioned earlier though, a Macrotek Magos for Enginseer Troops is probably a good idea for scoring and also extra repair rolls. 

 

Vorax shooting is gimped by their lack of AP (the lightning guns need Rends to do anything typically). The poison rounds are fun though. With Scoria's 'Rite of the Beast' they're I6 with re-rolls to hit in melee and charge distance. So not bad at all. They're just a little fragile, only 4+ armour and no Atomantic Shielding. Arlatax also have 6+ FNP over them as well. 

[Flint13]

Ok let's point by point.

 

- Scoria can only toss out cybertheurgy when he is outside of combat, and he trades his shooting for it. Plus it's on an LD8, so it's far from a certainty. Too many peeps seem to take it for grated that the Rite is just always on. You either get to use his big scary Vodian scepter or you get to renew Rite of the Beast. Pick one.

 

-I do! Been using it for about 50 games now. I also own Retribution, where Scoria and the Arlatax come from. What you're missing in that equation is that your Arlatax costs about as much as 4 Ferroxi and requires a Domius to charge him with Cybertheurgy, which again, far from a certainty. If you want to assume your Arlatax is Cybernetica as well, that's great! Ordo Reductor Thallax straight up ignore terrain and cover when moving or charging. Your Arlatax is going to do even less damage when he fails a charge from the -2 from cover. They're also scoring. But Thallax aren't the best comparison. The only reason I used them for an example was bc they both have WS that makes 50% of an their attacks disappear against marines.

 

-the only time Thallax are deleted "at will" is if you position them hella terribly, you're playing on planet bowling ball, or your opponents Typhon gets to live longer than a turn. If you let a Typhon hang around longer than a turn, that's not the thallaxs fault. You haven't given me an example of what scary melee units are just wrecking your Thallax or Ursarax, but if they're just getting demolished, it's pretty obvious you miscalculated that charge in the first place. Again, not the thallaxs fault.

 

-a single opponent with drop pods playing orbital assault isn't a reason to assume anything. Significant sample sizes and all that. If your thanatars are sitting outside of cover (which is the only way marksmen vets can plasma one to death via math) and unguarded by a cyber occuli, again, kinda not the unit's fault. If he's deleting entire maniples with these plasma vets, I'd defs ask to borrow some of those loaded dice.

 

- why are you using arch dominii at all? Even then, I'm glad we've identified one of the major flaws in taking just one type of HQ in a good Cybernetica list.

 

- Two Vulturax might kill a spartan, out of cover on turn one. They're just such a weird unit. I'm not super into arm chair theorizing though, so until I get a little experience, I'll leave them be.

 

-Im not sure what to do here. Did you quote and reply to yourself? Also, why would I ever punch a spartan? I don't think I even mentioned trying to do that. Bc it would be a bad idea for most the reasons you mentioned.

 

-don't tell him that. The entire reason there's a good nature debate going is bc Arlatax aren't the definitive best answer. Plus no one has any real experience with Vulturax beyond armchair theorizing yet.

 

-we already touched on some of the reasons it's a bad idea to ignore many of the other units when playing cybernetica. You don't score and are forced to play for tabling, you're severely hamstringing yourself with HQ utility...

Edited November 3, 2016 by Flint13

[God-Potato of Mankind]

I wish my Dracosians could delete Mechanicum maniples. So far they've not scored a single hit. 

[Flint13]

You and me both, man :lol:

 

They have such a great track record against Astartes, not so hot on bots.

[Terminus]

He was responding to part of my comment about Ursarax being Bantha poodoo on paper.

 

By the way, have I been selling myself short with my Magi with machinator arrays? Both cybertheurgy and repairs can be done instead of a shooting attack, and the array grants you two shooting attacks, so you should be able to do both? Cast a buff and repair, while Scoria can shoot his photon thruster and cast, etc.

[Flint13]

Hmm... I'm not entirely sure.

 

Scoria can fire both of his archaeotech pistols, John Woo style, one of the Machinator weapons (since two pistols count as one via Gunslinger) and then his photon thruster since its independent.

 

"A model with the Cybertheurgy special rule may use a single power may use a single power in the shooting phase instead of making a shooting attack, and may not do so if engaged in an assault or falling back."

 

The Machinator array allows for the model to "fire both of these weapons in the shooting phase, or one of them and another ranged weapon the model is carrying."

Edited November 3, 2016 by Flint13

[Terminus]

Right so use your regular shooting attack to cast, and use the additional action granted by the array to repair instead of fire.

[Castellan Cato]

That's how I've read, and been playing, the 40k version of the rule on the CM Dominus.  I don't know the text of the rule in 30k, but it seems like it would work the same way.

[Flint13]

Right so use your regular shooting attack to cast, and use the additional action granted by the array to repair instead of fire.

Yeah, looks like. So that's an easy two wounds a turn back to an automata posse.

 

Then some poor bastard still catches photon thruster to the face :lol:

[MorgothNL]

I've got a question regarding the "Machine Creature" Rule.

It states "Units made up of models with a Cybernetica Cortex can never count as scoring units, no matter the FOC being used or the particular rules of the mission involved".

 

So this does not state "Units containing one or more models" but neither does it say "Units made up entirely up of".. and this writing could mean both to me (because the rules usually use one of those lines).

 

This makes me think that the intention was, that if a HQ is attached to the units, they DO count as scoring (which would make sense to me fluff wise and would make them better/more balanced IMHO).

If an HQ is attached, the unit is no longer made up of models with a cybernetica cortex, and there will most likely also be a cortex controller in there.. which makes me think that the cortexes will be under control because of the HQ.

 

What is your take on this? I'm not trying to cheese and if it's not ok like that, than it isn't. Just reread the rules and thought this made a lot of sense without being to picky on how to interpret it.

Edited November 6, 2016 by MorgothNL

[Caillum]

Probably not, as HQ units usually aren't scoring either.

[MorgothNL]

Probably not, as HQ units usually aren't scoring either.

I know, but I see it this way:

- troops are scoring

- machine creature rule states "units made up of models with a cortex don't score"

- adding an hq to the unit makes the unit no longer "made up of models with a cortex"

- machine creature rule is negated

- they are still troops so they score, no longer restricted by the machine creature rule

 

So it's the 2nd point I'm stating here, that seems vague to me and could go "all models in the unit" or "a model in the unit". This either makes the HQ circumvent that rule and make the troops units scoring, or it doesn't cause there is still a model with that rule in the unit.

Edited November 6, 2016 by MorgothNL

[Slips]

 

Probably not, as HQ units usually aren't scoring either.

I know, but I see it this way:

- troops are scoring

- machine creature rule states "units made up of models with a cortex don't score"

- adding an hq to the unit makes the unit no longer "made up of models with a cortex"

- machine creature rule is negated

- they are still troops so they score, no longer restricted by the machine creature rule

 

So it's the 2nd point I'm stating here, that seems vague to me and could go "all models in the unit" or "a model in the unit". This either makes the HQ circumvent that rule and make the troops units scoring, or it doesn't cause there is still a model with that rule in the unit.

 

I'd argue that since the rule doesn't state "Exclusively made up of models with [...]" that, even if you add an HQ to the unit, it is still made up of units with the Machine Creature rule just not in its entirety and thus still fulfills the requirement for them being ineligible to score.

Edited November 6, 2016 by Slipstreams

[Confused Word Bearer]

How are a full unit of Thallax with Heavy Chainblades and Ferrox upgrade in melee? I know that they'd have 36 S7 attacks on the charge and 18 S7 attacks in melee when not charging, but how good are they really? Rageing Cyborg Skeletons sounds really awesome, and I think either an allied detachment or Reductor army with them as troops would be cool.

[MorgothNL]

 

I'd argue that since the rule doesn't state "Exclusively made up of models with [...]" that, even if you add an HQ to the unit, it is still made up of units with the Machine Creature rule just not in its entirety and thus still fulfills the requirement for them being ineligible to score.

 

 

I won't start a whole argument here because I don't think that's part of the 'tactica topic'. Thank you for your argument, I certainly agree that grammar wise, if it does not state "exclusively" or "entirely" it mean that my interpretation does not work out.

 

I was mostly thinking about the way it was intended by the writers. Mostly because to me it makes sense because it would bring cybernetica more on par with Ordo Reductor, makes sense fluff wise and because the rules always state either "exclusively" or "one or more models". 

I hope an update or faq will make it clear what was intended.. up until then I'll just keep running the 2 Thallax units in my list.

 

I was hoping someone had already asked this somewhere before, got feedback from FW or a watertight argument why it was intended the way we play it now. 

[Brofist]

How are a full unit of Thallax with Heavy Chainblades and Ferrox upgrade in melee? I know that they'd have 36 S7 attacks on the charge and 18 S7 attacks in melee when not charging, but how good are they really? Rageing Cyborg Skeletons sounds really awesome, and I think either an allied detachment or Reductor army with them as troops would be cool.

I'm still not having an easy time with Thallax. The low WS means that you miss with a lot of your attacks. A full unit is spendy, but survivable. Maybe worth trying? I doubt it will work better than a dedicated melee unit.

[Reclusiarch Darius]

- Scoria can only toss out cybertheurgy when he is outside of combat, and he trades his shooting for it. Plus it's on an LD8, so it's far from a certainty. Too many peeps seem to take it for grated that the Rite is just always on. You either get to use his big scary Vodian scepter or you get to renew Rite of the Beast. Pick one. 

 

He's gonna be out of combat for at least 2 turns, unless he's getting podded on. Anyway, I'm not really fussed if he's locked in melee, cos he deletes pretty much everything. Opponents should really just kill him from range. Beast mode lasts until the start of your next Shooting phase, so if you get a charge with the Arlatax, they've done their job. If its a protracted combat, its still active until it comes around to your turn. 

 do! Been using it for about 50 games now. I also own Retribution, where Scoria and the Arlatax come from. What you're missing in that equation is that your Arlatax costs about as much as 4 Ferroxi and requires a Domius to charge him with Cybertheurgy, which again, far from a certainty. If you want to assume your Arlatax is Cybernetica as well, that's great! Ordo Reductor Thallax straight up ignore terrain and cover when moving or charging. Your Arlatax is going to do even less damage when he fails a charge from the -2 from cover. They're also scoring. But Thallax aren't the best comparison. The only reason I used them for an example was bc they both have WS that makes 50% of an their attacks disappear against marines. 

 

I can tell you with certainty that Ursarax/Thallax will not survive a Demolisher to the face, or AP4. Arlatax will survive both and a great deal worse. 

If I was running Reductor I'd be running max Medusas in Heavy, and not investing in trash. 

Move Through Cover, all MC's have it. 

Thallax are scoring, Ursarax are not. 

Difference being you can actually buff Arlatax melee. Thallax and Ursarax can't be buffed in any way besides squad upgrades. 

-the only time Thallax are deleted "at will" is if you position them hella terribly, you're playing on planet bowling ball, or your opponents Typhon gets to live longer than a turn. If you let a Typhon hang around longer than a turn, that's not the thallaxs fault. You haven't given me an example of what scary melee units are just wrecking your Thallax or Ursarax, but if they're just getting demolished, it's pretty obvious you miscalculated that charge in the first place. Again, not the thallaxs fault. 

 

Anything with a chainaxe or better will demolish them. I have to deal with Dracosans, Malcadors and Medusas locally. The first two actually need Line of Sight, but unless you plan on cowering behind terrain all game and being useless, you'll have to cross no-man's land at some point to make a reliable charge. Medusas can nuke you indirectly, they do scatter full distance. 

>miscalculated the charge

Thallax struggle to win combats with your average Tactical squad, especially if they've taken any casualties on approach. Also, they're slow as hell for a melee unit, on the turn they wanna charge. You're likely to get charged in most circumstances where your opponent isn't braindead.

The reason why successful melee units have either transports or fast base speed is because you want to be basically point-blank so RNC doesn't randomly leave you swinging in the wind. Mechanicum don't get assault transports, and we only have two units with Jump Packs. 

-a single opponent with drop pods playing orbital assault isn't a reason to assume anything. Significant sample sizes and all that. If your thanatars are sitting outside of cover (which is the only way marksmen vets can plasma one to death via math) and unguarded by a cyber occuli, again, kinda not the unit's fault. If he's deleting entire maniples with these plasma vets, I'd defs ask to borrow some of those loaded dice. 

 

I'm just bringing up another matchup where robots get dunked on. It's not my only problem matchup, just one of many. Thankfully my local DA players aren't going 30k Ravenwing yet. Acid heavy bolters are a joke. 

Yay, I have to dump 130pts into a character with no other upgrades just for Deepstrike protection. 

20 shots, 13 hits, 6 wounds (Sniper applies to all attacks FYI). With Aegis Line, I do have a 4+ cover save, but I'm still down to 1 wound which is danger zone for variance (ie if he rolls above average or I roll awful for saves, RIP). Then last wound can get picked off by a random lascannon or something. Point is they do substantial damage for their cost, and I don't like putting my faith in 4+/5+ saves. 

 why are you using arch dominii at all? Even then, I'm glad we've identified one of the major flaws in taking just one type of HQ in a good Cybernetica list. 

 

The flaw is I have to shell out 130pts of non-Domini to get a cyber-occularis. And waste a HQ slot. 

- Two Vulturax might kill a spartan, out of cover on turn one. They're just such a weird unit. I'm not super into arm chair theorizing though, so until I get a little experience, I'll leave them be. 

 

They're FMC's, so getting unobscured Line of Sight is pretty easy. 2+ to hit and 2+ to glance means barring atrocious rolls you'll at least bring the Spartan into the red zone of a random dark lance getting past the flare shield. 

-Im not sure what to do here. Did you quote and reply to yourself? Also, why would I ever punch a spartan? I don't think I even mentioned trying to do that. Bc it would be a bad idea for most the reasons you mentioned. 

 

?

-don't tell him that. The entire reason there's a good nature debate going is bc Arlatax aren't the definitive best answer. Plus no one has any real experience with Vulturax beyond armchair theorizing yet. 

 

I wouldn't recommend playing robots outside of Cybernetica, so in that context take the thrall units instead. Or if you're going Reductor, take their excellent artillery squadrons and equip according to your meta. 

I've proxied since their rules dropped. They're kinda absurd against heavy AV. The flare shield is amusing, but I kinda wish they had an actual save besides the 3+ armour (Lightnings and Fire Raptors do wreck them with drivebys getting into side or rear arc). The havok launchers do ok, they're good for picking off SA infantry and chipping away at non-TDA Legion infantry (artificer armour on Sarges is dumb though lol). 

-we already touched on some of the reasons it's a bad idea to ignore many of the other units when playing cybernetica. You don't score and are forced to play for tabling, you're severely hamstringing yourself with HQ utility... 

 

It's not as bad as you think. Taghmata has a lot of jank, and Reductor is basically 'take tanks till you hit points limit'. If they let Castellax score again, it would be fine. The non-scoring gimp is just retarded IMO. HQ utility is fine, Domini do everything you want in Cybernetica. I'm taking Macrotek Magos for scoring Enginseers, but that's my only concession to the 'main' list. Cybernetica is all about the big stompy robots. If that's not your thing, don't play it. Probably play Reductor, they're more competitive IMO anyway (scoring Krios Venators is hilarious). 

"A model with the Cybertheurgy special rule may use a single power may use a single power in the shooting phase instead of making a shooting attack, and may not do so if engaged in an assault or falling back."

 

The Machinator array allows for the model to "fire both of these weapons in the shooting phase, or one of them and another ranged weapon the model is carrying." 

 

Nah its either Battlesmith or Cybertheurgy, not both. You give up your shooting entirely in either case. Even more reason why Cybertheurgy is great, you can repair from 24" away on a Leadership test (robots only). 

I've got a question regarding the "Machine Creature" Rule.

It states "Units made up of models with a Cybernetica Cortex can never count as scoring units, no matter the FOC being used or the particular rules of the mission involved".

 

So this does not state "Units containing one or more models" but neither does it say "Units made up entirely up of".. and this writing could mean both to me (because the rules usually use one of those lines).

 

This makes me think that the intention was, that if a HQ is attached to the units, they DO count as scoring (which would make sense to me fluff wise and would make them better/more balanced IMHO). 

If an HQ is attached, the unit is no longer made up of models with a cybernetica cortex, and there will most likely also be a cortex controller in there.. which makes me think that the cortexes will be under control because of the HQ.

 

What is your take on this? I'm not trying to cheese and if it's not ok like that, than it isn't. Just reread the rules and thought this made a lot of sense without being to picky on how to interpret it. 

 

I would read the main 30k rules, where it states that only Troops score unless you have a special rule. Last I checked, Domini don't have 'Implacable Advance' or any other rule that grants them scoring. So no, doesn't score. 

How are a full unit of Thallax with Heavy Chainblades and Ferrox upgrade in melee? I know that they'd have 36 S7 attacks on the charge and 18 S7 attacks in melee when not charging, but how good are they really? Rageing Cyborg Skeletons sounds really awesome, and I think either an allied detachment or Reductor army with them as troops would be cool. 

 

That's 445 points you realise? 

 

Putting cost aside, assuming you get the charge (you're just as slow as normal infantry on the turn you charge, and randomly a bit better every other turn with Jetpack move). On average you kill 7 Marines on the charge, or 3-4 Terminators (depends on if they're in Cataphractii or not, affects the 3 Rends you do). 

 

However, that comes with a number of caveats:

- You lose no models on the advance

- You get the charge (enemy is in range, you don't fail your charge roll)

- Nobody dies on Overwatch, or at any Initiative step before Initiative 2

- You win combat. If you lose combat, you have to pass your Ld8 check or pretty much auto-die to Sweeping Advance. 

 

Another thing to mention is that unit has a pretty huge footprint, so it won't be easy to hide, and hiding drastically reduces your chances of getting into position to charge something. 

[Charlo]

Holy-multi-quote-Batman!

[Flint13]

- Scoria can't get podded in. His options are Triaros or Macrocarid if he doesn't want to foot it. Neither are assault transports. Those first two turns you can turn on the Rite, you probably aren't in combat unless your opponent wants to be or is asleep at the wheel. Or you're a single Arlatax. It doesn't matter when the combat comes around. If Scoria is in combat he can't cast. If he's outside of combat, he's not shooting. There are plenty of things he doesn't instantly delete. It's just that people don't like he kicks over Primarch sand castles and they don't want to Chang what they're doing.

 

- Yup, if they're stuck out in the open, they certainly will not survive a demo cannon. I'd suggest not leaving them in the open. AP4 still has to wound. Max medusas isn't fun for anyone or at all. Don't do that. Either way, Thallax are troops. Why would they compete with medusas? You can buff a single or maybe pair or Arlatax, then they still get outperformed by fewer points of Ursarax, even if you don't count the Dominus you're using to buff the automata.

 

- again, AP4 doesn't just instantly wound. And cover. And feel no pain. The only time Thallax struggle with tact squads is if you bounce a 3 Thallax squad off triple or more their number in Astartes. That's miscalculating a combat outcome, not the unit's fault. If I run 10 assault marines into a unit of 10 red butchers, assault marines don't suck because they lose that combat.

 

- When is a magos prime going to be a tax or waste? Have you read their unit entry? They're awesome.

 

- FMCs and flyers don't ignore area terrain or line of sight. It's not hard to hide a tank behind a building. I'm starting to get the impression your local games are played on a flat board.

 

- This is not how Reductor works. That misconception could explain a lot though.

 

-Nah, Battlesmith + Cybertheurgy.

 

Buut. .. We're obviously not going to agree on it. So let's move past it :)

[Terminus]

If I was running Reductor I'd be running max Medusas in Heavy, and not investing in trash.

 

And that there can just be where we end our discussion.  I am not interested in any game, event, or meta where this is the prevailing mindset, and I personally feel these attitudes are what ruined 40K, and I pray that with ever more low-cost entry options into 30K, more of this cancerous type of thinking doesn't spread into our fun narrative game.

 

Thallax are awesome-looking models, mandatory in Reductor, and can do a lot of work if you're not just clumping them up for Medusa blasts (their bases are pretty big, getting more than 1 or 2 hit per blast is unlikely unless you let it, and play on planet bowling ball). 

 

If someone is looking to just pick the most point-effective model in each FOC category and spam it 40K-style, I don't think this forum is the place for it. Just read the very thorough analysis on 4chan, pick your poison, and spam away.

Edited November 7, 2016 by Terminus

[Charlo]

If someone turned up with 12 Medusa's I'd bid them good day.

[Confused Word Bearer]

 

How are a full unit of Thallax with Heavy Chainblades and Ferrox upgrade in melee? I know that they'd have 36 S7 attacks on the charge and 18 S7 attacks in melee when not charging, but how good are they really? Rageing Cyborg Skeletons sounds really awesome, and I think either an allied detachment or Reductor army with them as troops would be cool.

I'm still not having an easy time with Thallax. The low WS means that you miss with a lot of your attacks. A full unit is spendy, but survivable. Maybe worth trying? I doubt it will work better than a dedicated melee unit.

Doing some guess-work, I think a full unit of Thallax, especially Ferrox Thallax with Heavy Chainblades would be able to beat a unit of 20 tactical marines in melee, as they'll have more attacks at a higher strength, with the exception of marine power weapons, and despoiler squads which will have slightly more attacks, and World Eaters with chainaxes who will attack at AP4 and ignore the Lorica Thallax armor save. However, anything that wounds has a chance of being nullified by FnP, and since Thallax are 3W units with T5, they're going to be considerably harder to wound.

 

So marines have the advantage of WS3, power armor, power weapons, and being cheaper, while Thallax have FnP, S5 or S7 with Heavy chainblades, T5, 3W, being extremely tough, with only S10 weapons being able to ID them.

[Terminus]

^seems like a silly comparison, the Thallax squad will be way more expensive, and non-special tactical marines are not exactly the gold standard for melee. I will contend to my dying day that the best way to use them is plasma fusil keep-away squads, like Tau battle suits. 4+ save isn't as important when you're jetpacking behind terrain and cover and such. Edited November 8, 2016 by Flint13
Keep it friendly please.

[Confused Word Bearer]

Oh, I understand that! I was just comparing the usual troop choices between each other, and a love for melee that I have. But you are more than likely right in that regard.

[Terminus]

Perhaps a more accurate comparison would be an assault squad? 5 Ferox should be around the same points as a 10-man squad with full gear, and the Ferox would likely lose that fight, although I haven't run concrete numbers.