Wolf King Spoilers and Discussion

[HaSY]

The twist is interesting considering Haradin and the remainder of the fleet were given the task to look for Wolf King. 

And people expected that would happen until it was revealed that there was another ''mini rock'' Alaxxes and it is a chapter sized unlike UM chapter.

 

Vengeful Spirit have Russ returned from Alaxxes after being mentioned to be relieved by Angels of Caliban.

So, there is an unexplained gap here. Who knows what will happen or whether Athalos travelled with Russ.

The revelation from Gav's Unforgiven novel suggested that Haradin is the Supreme Grand Master that organized the reformation of Deathwing and Ravenwing.

If you want to read more stuff about DA in 30k, Unforgiven have lots of teases and foretelling/written as mythic truth.

Cypher suggested that the reason why Horus lowered his shield is because Lion and Guilliman have arrived with their fleets and Russ was around as well. 


You have Dark Angels actually sent someone to do infiltration and observation on Alpha Legion and Space Wolves.

You have Dark Angels skilfully using the clouds as cover that none of other legions even detected a huge Star Fort and attendant fleet, definitely void warfare specialists considering these are newly raised chapter fresh from Caliban instead of Terra.

I guess Chris Wraight would make fresh characterisation of I Legion. 

[Kol Saresk]

Vengeful Spirit is in year four of the Heresy, Wolf King should be year one since it picks up right after Scars. So a three year gap is to be expected.

[HaSY]

Yeah, I almost forgotten that only Russ came to Terra while Bjorn was the one overseeing the VI legion's rearmament program in Alaxxes.

[Augustus]

So Grey Angel would be in response to the Wolf King's return to Terra or did it occur before it?

[Kol Saresk]

Hmm, I'd almost have to say it was concurrent. Reason being it was a scouting mission to discover the loyalties of the First, probably because of the events in Fallen Angels where the Lion, albeit unwittingly, secured some rather powerful siege engines before handing them over to soon-to-be-turncoats.

 

So if it was because of Alaxxes, then it wouldn't make sense since 1.)the Dark Angels helped those they determined to be loyal to the Emperor and 2.)proclaimed loyalty to the Emperor above even their Primarch. The flow of events just wouldn't make sense in that order.

 

Now, it might be before Alaxxes, but Alaxxes seems like it was pretty close to Istvaan V, so it might be a little confusing to the events where Loken was retrieved from Istvaan III. It seems like the easiest way for events to flow was if Wolf King and Grey Angel were simultaneous, or close enough to be simultaneous.

[depthcharge12]

Heh it's almost like "quis custodes ipsos custodes" and all that. The Dark Angels are watching the loyalty of the Space Wolves :D

 

Yo wolf, we heard you liked watch packs, so we watch packed your watch pack, so you can be loyal while you're being loyal.

[Emperor's Furor]

I think Russ prompted the Sigilite to send his Errants to check out Caliban after hearing the dismissiveness of the angels he encountered.

[Scribe]

So...Wolves are still just as, if not more so!, ferocious and brutal as the World Eaters?

 

If so, glad I checked out on this whole thing, I dont have it in me to fight over it without getting banned. :p

[Marshal Rohr]

It's probably going to be a different kind of brutal. Like a cold, detached kind. Not like a best the hell out of someone kind.

[Scribe]

While I thank you for your response, and this is no fault of your own, my eyes cannot roll harder, without ripping the optic nerve.

 

If there is actual reinforcement that the Wolves are 'totally brutal man' to the point of overshadowing the World Eaters on this score, then its the Executioners bull:cuss all over again.

 

I'm sorry, but it is.

 

And I already see a few of the usual suspects in this thread, so I brace for fireworks. My body is ready. :D

[Marshal Rohr]

I mean if we want to break it down legion by legion you can spin it so every legion is the 'most brutal'. Imperial Fists build fortresses on conquered lands and ride out to execute traitors and their families while extracting wealth to send to Terra. The Iconoclasts committed nothing but religious genocides for much of their history. The Death Guard use chemical weapons on civilian populations. The White Scars are know for their savagery. The Alpha Legion uses terror tactics on civilians. The Night a lords take it a step farther by personally being present to terrorize civilians. The Ultramarines overthrow legitimate governments, establish military dictatorships, and have secret police black bag dissenters. The Blood Angels drink the blood of their enemies mixed with wine. The Iron Hand use atomic weaponry on civilian populations.

 

But the world eaters chop people up in a state of psychosis where their actions aren't their own. That makes them the most brutal.

 

It isn't mutually exclusive that the World Eaters be considered exceptional brutal in their war making and the Space Wolves be considered exceptionally brutal in why the make war and what happens to their victims. Is Freddy Krueger more brutal the Jason Vorhees? Is the Alien more Brutal than the Predator.

 

Trick question. To the person being brutalized, they are all the worst thing to every happen to them.

[Kol Saresk]

Here's the thing, the Wolves are the War Hounds reborn. The War Hounds were noted for being ferocious because they chose to kill every man, woman, and child. There was a conscious choice where they decided to cross the line and annihilate entire populations just because a noncombatant farted so bad the filtration in the power suits couldn't stop the stink. The Night Lords are noted for this same brutality, but no one has any arguments about that.

 

When you get to the World Eaters, there is no control. They no longer have a choice. If it moves, it dies. The cute little squirrel? Dead. The cute little chihuahua? Flamer to the face. The cute little bunny rabbit? Suffered the sweet, tender mercies of a chainaxe to the cottontail.

 

Which is considered more brutal, a school shooting in a peacetime country or a chemical weapon attack in a battlefield where there happens to be a school building with people inside? Scientific answer is that both are brutal. Political and societal answer is the school shooting during peacetime is more brutal because it not in a battle field and thus there was no justification for it. And while there was no justification for the chemical attack, the school was in a battlefield so it seen as inevitable.

 

Legions like the Night Lords, Space Wolves and War Hounds are the school shooting in peacetime. They went out of their way to create collateral damage.

 

Legions like the Iron Warriors and World Eaters are the chemical attack. Collateral damage was unavoidable, but it was a simple fact of how they did things.

 

So honestly, if someone complains about being called "shockingly brutal", I better start seeing complaints about Legions like the Night Lords since it was the VIII Legion who has background describing how they went to a compliant world, found an island with a cult on it, and decided to murder all the men, women, children, puppies and kitties everywhere else on the planet, just so the island would become compliant again.

 

So stop being a hypocrite just because you want play the "my Legion is better game". If you don't like a biased view going "these guys are brutal" then I suggest sticking to settings like Star Trek and Star Wars where the views are unbiased and there is an actual ranking system on who is worse.

 

EDIT: This isn't a response to anyone in particular, just some simple musings on the subject.

[Marshal Rohr]

While I thank you for your response, and this is no fault of your own, my eyes cannot roll harder, without ripping the optic nerve.

 

If there is actual reinforcement that the Wolves are 'totally brutal man' to the point of overshadowing the World Eaters on this score, then its the Executioners bull:cuss all over again.

 

I'm sorry, but it is.

 

And I already see a few of the usual suspects in this thread, so I brace for fireworks. My body is ready. :D

This novel specifically ends the wolves as executioners idea and culminates with Russ admitting it was something only they believed.

[Legatus]

The "Nails" only turned a World Eater into a mindless berserker if they malfunctioned. Once the Legion's Apothecaries had figured out how to replicate Angron's implants adequately they merely enhanced the Marine's innate aggression and dulled his experienced for anything other than violence. So, ideally, the implants did nto take over and made them do things, they only focused them on violence.

 

Also, only to reiterate: Planetary systems would surrender voluntarily rather than to face the World Eaters.

 

Now, I am sure that every Legion at some point would have encountered a culture that was so intimidated by their military might that they voluntarily joined the Imperium. But for the World Eaters that is explicitely pointed out as having occurred on a number of occasions. Cultures weren't going "oh no, it's the Ultramarines", even though the latter had a much better track record than the World Eaters and were active in a wider area. It was the World Eaters who had a particularly nasty reputation.

 

"‘Russ.’ Angron turned to his brother, and pointed with one bloody hand over the encircling wolf packs, to where the Legions still fought across the rest of the battlefield. ‘Your Legion is bleeding.’
Russ didn’t deny it, for it was true. Beyond the encircled primarchs, the World Eaters were tearing through their cousins’ grey regiments,(...)"

- Betrayer

[Marshal Rohr]

Again, what is more brutal. The MMA fighter who breaks his opponents spine, or the bureaucrat who oversees the firebombing of a town because it was suspected to house rebels?

[Legatus]

So honestly, if someone complains about being called "shockingly brutal"

 

The "shockingly brutal" Space Wolves are not the issue. It is that their "shocking brutality" was supposedly "without comparison".

 

 

 

Edit: The MMA fighter who joyfully breaks his opponent's spine even though he tried to tap out and then proceeds to tear it from his back is more brutal than a bureaucrat who signs a document. The bureaucrat is pretty ruthless, though.

[Scribe]

While I thank you for your response, and this is no fault of your own, my eyes cannot roll harder, without ripping the optic nerve.

If there is actual reinforcement that the Wolves are 'totally brutal man' to the point of overshadowing the World Eaters on this score, then its the Executioners bull:cuss all over again.

I'm sorry, but it is.

And I already see a few of the usual suspects in this thread, so I brace for fireworks. My body is ready.

This novel specifically ends the wolves as executioners idea and culminates with Russ admitting it was something only they believed.

Boom. All forgiven and forgotten.

@Kol - Reason its not an issue with the NL, is that was always their thing. Always. It was also different. When the WE went into Ghenna, they didnt perform those act's with the same justification as the NL would. Thats the key difference here, and what the Wolves should never have been elevated to.

Regardless, if what the good Marshal states here is true. I couldn't possibly care less anymore and my enjoyment of the 30K setting has amplified about 100%. :D

[Fire Golem]

The "Nails" only turned a World Eater into a mindless berserker if they malfunctioned. Once the Legion's Apothecaries had figured out how to replicate Angron's implants adequately they merely enhanced the Marine's innate aggression and dulled his experienced for anything other than violence. So, ideally, the implants did nto take over and made them do things, they only focused them on violence.

 

Also, only to reiterate: Planetary systems would surrender voluntarily rather than to face the World Eaters.

 

Now, I am sure that every Legion at some point would have encountered a culture that was so intimidated by their military might that they voluntarily joined the Imperium. But for the World Eaters that is explicitely pointed out as having occurred on a number of occasions. Cultures weren't going "oh no, it's the Ultramarines", even though the latter had a much better track record than the World Eaters and were active in a wider area. It was the World Eaters who had a particularly nasty reputation.

 

 

"‘Russ.’ Angron turned to his brother, and pointed with one bloody hand over the encircling wolf packs, to where the Legions still fought across the rest of the battlefield. ‘Your Legion is bleeding.’

Russ didn’t deny it, for it was true. Beyond the encircled primarchs, the World Eaters were tearing through their cousins’ grey regiments,(...)"

- Betrayer

Lots of legions had nasty reputations. Systems surrendered rather than face the Night Lords too. Imperial Army regiments didn't want to fight with the Space Wolves because of the way they treated the enemy.

 

'When you have sympathy with the enemy, you know you have the wrong kind of allies.'

- Prospero Burns

[Marshal Rohr]

 

So honestly, if someone complains about being called "shockingly brutal"

 

The "shockingly brutal" Space Wolves are not the issue. It is that their "shocking brutality" was supposedly "without comparison".

Someone quoted the full text on page on or two.

[Kol Saresk]

Kind of ironic you pick a scene where the Wolves maintain tactical discipline and work to encircle Angron and protect Russ while the World Eaters run off into the distance, leaving Angron in the dust to try and show how the World Eaters had control, in a novel where Khârn specifically notes that the World Eaters have lost all control because the Nails plunge every World Eater into a mindless, berzerker state and a result, tactics like a simple tank formation are beyond their capabilities. Heck, they couldn't even hold a battle line. All the while, Khârn keeps blacking out and not knowing what he is doing.

 

The malfunction you spoke of wasn't the mindless, berzerker state, but rather the fact that the victim wasn't able to return to a cognizant state. All of the Nails force all of those afflicted into a mindless state where they work only off of instinct. Not everyone comes back and those who do not become the Red Butchers, soldiers trapped in Tactical Dreadnought armor that has FOF ident systems that prevent them from targeting friendly signals.

 

Kind of surprised you missed the distinction.

[depthcharge12]

Guys, can we get off of the brutality topic? :) make a separate thread if you need to, but this thread is on the book.

 

Is there anything implied about the future of the AL fleet and their direction?

[Emperor's Furor]

Space Wolves make a conscious decision to be brutal the World Eaters are inherently brutal, both are brutal but different types of brutal.

[helterskelter]

Space Wolves make a conscious decision to be brutal the World Eaters are inherently brutal, both are brutal but different types of brutal.

The one scene that sorts this all out for me is when Angron and Russ are duking it out, and the wolves are there at their fathers back while the world eaters are just going nuts elsewhere

[Legatus]

Lots of legions had nasty reputations. Systems surrendered rather than face the Night Lords too.

 

When hearing the Night Lords were nearby, Imperial worlds would pay all outstanding tithes, cease/crack down on illegal activities, and kill those with deformities, so as to not provoke punishment. That is often confused with foreign worlds surrendering to the Imperium due to the Night Lords' reputation.

 

 

The "shockingly brutal" Space Wolves are not the issue. It is that their "shocking brutality" was supposedly "without comparison".

Someone quoted the full text on page on or two.

 

I couldn't find it. Were you perhaps thinking of the quote describing their supposed status as "executioners"? Or was that meant to answer a different quotation?

 

 

Kind of ironic you pick a scene where the Wolves maintain tactical discipline and work to encircle Angron and protect Russ while the World Eaters run off into the distance, leaving Angron in the dust to try and show how the World Eaters had control,

 

That was not my intention. That scene was supposed to demonstrate the World Eaters' ferociousness in combat compared to the Space Wolves. The Space Wolves fight to obtain a tactical objective. The World Eaters fight to kill and destroy.

 

 

The malfunction you spoke of wasn't the mindless, berzerker state, but rather the fact that the victim wasn't able to return to a cognizant state. All of the Nails force all of those afflicted into a mindless state where they work only off of instinct. Not everyone comes back and those who do not become the Red Butchers, soldiers trapped in Tactical Dreadnought armor that has FOF ident systems that prevent them from targeting friendly signals.

 

Kind of surprised you missed the distinction.

 

I was going by the description given in HH1 on page 89, according to which the successfully integrated implants "enhance aggression and pain tolerance" but left them "devoid of joy or peace save that found in battle". Those whose implants were deemed unstable formed the Rampager squads, and among these units, those who were too far gone formed the Butchers.

 

I couldn't find a description of a "mindless state" in HH1, but perhaps it is in some other passage or in a specific unit description? Or does that come from a HH novel?

[Kol Saresk]

Try the novel you quoted.