Marshal Rohr Posted October 13, 2015 Author Share Posted October 13, 2015 But the night lords enjoy it. The space wolves disdain it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kol Saresk Posted October 13, 2015 Share Posted October 13, 2015 But the night lords enjoy it. The space wolves disdain it.^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^http://i.imgur.com/OfYGY.gif And that is the primary difference between the Wolves and the other brutal Legions. Because they made a conscious effort to do something they believe to be wrong because they believed it to be necessary. The War Hounds thought it was just a matter of how to do war. The World Eaters couldn't stop twitching long enough to keep from killing. And the Night Lords enjoyed. I wish I could show how emphatically I am pointing that is indeed the hammer hitting the nail on the head. Although, I imaigine it will get ignored again like it was a few pages ago just because its an inconvenient truth. -_- Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dantay VI Posted October 13, 2015 Share Posted October 13, 2015 Edit: as above... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Leif Bearclaw Posted October 13, 2015 Share Posted October 13, 2015 Comparing the Wolves to the Night Lords is missing the point. The NL were a terror weapon, murderers who take their time and make an example of their victims. That isn't the Wolves, who are portrayed (I'm primarily going of PB here, for the GC-era Legion) as first and foremost, professional killers. Any weapon, any means, whatever it takes to get the job done. This can be best seen in the engagement with the Quietude, from seizing the enemies' guns because they were closer to hand to crashing the space station into the ice to allow the city to be assaulted. The Night Lords want to be feared, because fear leads to obedience and control. The Wolves want to win with a minimum of fuss, you're dead, they're (hopefully) not, job done, move on. They're very different entities meant for very different goals. Which is a good thing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Taurulf Posted October 14, 2015 Share Posted October 14, 2015 I tend to think of it this way..you always know what the world eaters are going to do..Charge headlong in and not stop till everything is dead! The Night lords are going butcher people from the shadows and leave them out somewhere public for all and sundry to see. Both are brutal and extreame...however that is what they will do 99.9% of the time the wolves on the other hand will do just enough to get the job done in whatever way is best for that particular situation. whos more brutal the berserker or the calm guy who does exactly the same thing ??? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Karthak Posted October 14, 2015 Share Posted October 14, 2015 I'm still confused as to how the Alpha Legion hammered the Wolves so easily. Even if their Marines suffered in the burning of Prospero, shouldn't their fleet still be top-notch? Magnus had deactivated Prospero's orbital defenses and sent away the Legion fleet. Scars mentions that only a few of the defensive batteries managed to fire on the Wolves at all, and yet the same book describes their fleet as ragged and damaged. o.0 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marshal Rohr Posted October 14, 2015 Author Share Posted October 14, 2015 The alpha outnumbered the wolves did they not? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Taurulf Posted October 14, 2015 Share Posted October 14, 2015 yhe wolves fleet does not appear to have been very large due to the constant grind of the crusade...The alphas outnumbered the wolves by quite a large amount. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kol Saresk Posted October 14, 2015 Share Posted October 14, 2015 The alpha outnumbered the wolves did they not?I believe so. I believe the implication in Scars was that the numbers engaging the Wolves in Alaxxes was so great that it served as the prime motivation in why the Khan thought the fleet attacking him was actually a fake. A full Legion can't be in two places at once and all that jazz. But still, full Legion with unspecified amount of resources versus a Legion with reduced manpower is pretty much only going to go one way. I mean shoot, look what happened to the Wolves when they faced 10,000 Sons sans orbital defences. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Xin Ceithan Posted October 14, 2015 Share Posted October 14, 2015 I believe it is also stated ( by Bjoern) that void combat ( aside from the getting into combat face to face) is not in their nature and modus operandi in general at this time. So they are on uncommon ground here and outnumbered. Not too good of a position to be in from the beginning. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
b1soul Posted October 14, 2015 Share Posted October 14, 2015 SW are the brutal legion who don't enjoy brutality? Not sure about that Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
b1soul Posted October 14, 2015 Share Posted October 14, 2015 I'm still confused as to how the Alpha Legion hammered the Wolves so easily. Even if their Marines suffered in the burning of Prospero, shouldn't their fleet still be top-notch? Magnus had deactivated Prospero's orbital defenses and sent away the Legion fleet. Scars mentions that only a few of the defensive batteries managed to fire on the Wolves at all, and yet the same book describes their fleet as ragged and damaged. o.0 Hmm...is the SW fleet ragged or are the marines ragged? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Karthak Posted October 14, 2015 Share Posted October 14, 2015 The alpha outnumbered the wolves did they not?I believe so. I believe the implication in Scars was that the numbers engaging the Wolves in Alaxxes was so great that it served as the prime motivation in why the Khan thought the fleet attacking him was actually a fake. A full Legion can't be in two places at once and all that jazz. But still, full Legion with unspecified amount of resources versus a Legion with reduced manpower is pretty much only going to go one way. I mean shoot, look what happened to the Wolves when they faced 10,000 Sons sans orbital defences. Weren't those numbers severely outdated? Pretty sure that the number of Thousand Sons on Prospero when the Wolves came are going to jump ten-fold when the Forgeworld book about the Burning comes out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dantay VI Posted October 14, 2015 Share Posted October 14, 2015 Well the Wolves do not cover themselves in human skins and carry human skulls around with them, Have you read Wolves at the Door? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Conn Eremon Posted October 14, 2015 Share Posted October 14, 2015 I'm particular hoping so, Karthak, but if I recall correctly I have been told that it was Laurie Goulding who claims the new rise in numbers won't be reflected on Prospero but on how much of the Legion was off Prospero. Basically "Yes, there was more like a hundred thousand, but only ten thousand were actually there." It completely negates most of the point of both books, so I am hoping FW decides to increase the number on Prospero accordingly instead. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wade Garrett Posted October 14, 2015 Share Posted October 14, 2015 Comparing the Wolves to the Night Lords is missing the point. The NL were a terror weapon, murderers who take their time and make an example of their victims. That isn't the Wolves, who are portrayed (I'm primarily going of PB here, for the GC-era Legion) as first and foremost, professional killers. Any weapon, any means, whatever it takes to get the job done. This can be best seen in the engagement with the Quietude, from seizing the enemies' guns because they were closer to hand to crashing the space station into the ice to allow the city to be assaulted. The Night Lords want to be feared, because fear leads to obedience and control. The Wolves want to win with a minimum of fuss, you're dead, they're (hopefully) not, job done, move on. They're very different entities meant for very different goals. Which is a good thing. And yet the Wolves tortured the Quietude wounded to death, teaching their spirits to fear the VI. Honestly, I find the idea that the Wolves are just as monstrous as the monster Legions, except once the torture and slaughter is done the Wolf Lords will all shed a single man tear of regret, therefore they are unique and special...eh. Not a fan. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Karthak Posted October 14, 2015 Share Posted October 14, 2015 I'm particular hoping so, Karthak, but if I recall correctly I have been told that it was Laurie Goulding who claims the new rise in numbers won't be reflected on Prospero but on how much of the Legion was off Prospero. Basically "Yes, there was more like a hundred thousand, but only ten thousand were actually there." It completely negates most of the point of both books, so I am hoping FW decides to increase the number on Prospero accordingly instead. That seems absolutely cuckoo. Hasn't it always been the case that the 15th Legion was almost exterminated when the Wolves came? The event loses most of its meaning if only 10% of the Thousand Sons were even there! Like Khayon said: "We died when the Wolves came. We died when our birth world burned." Sure, losing Prospero was a horrendous blow. But it would be pretentious as @&%# to say that the Legion "died" if most of them weren't even scratched by the Wolves! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kol Saresk Posted October 14, 2015 Share Posted October 14, 2015 The increase in numbers off-world is to reflect two things: 1.)How they maintin Legion outposts. No brainer because if the whole Legion was actually at Prospero then Battle for the Abyss, Daemonology and even the reference in the Wolf King about the Wolves attacking XV Legion outposts have to be all wrong. 2.)Magnus and the Sons who accompanied him to Prospero, sat there for a year, doing nothing to contribute to the Great Crusade. Lorgar had one of his crowning achievements burned to the ground, because he was being too slow in earning compliances, albeit because he was too busy converting them while making them compliant. Trying to write that the Emperor simply ignored the fact that one of his Legions just disappeared from the Crusade to go sulk, would be like writing Vulkan Lives. It ain't good. Now, what I got from talking to Laurie Goulding on the First Expedition is that his one of primary jobs is continuity, to make everything consistent. The problem is that for some of the older material, he is just looking for a quick fix to bring it all back i line. The example that sticks out the strongest in my mind is Deliverance Lost. You know the part, where the Emperor tells Corax about the two Missing Primarchs. And then Forgeworld published that the Missing Primarchs only went Missing after all twenty were found. Yeah, that quick fix was apparently "No, everyone just read it wrong. It was really saying that there were two Primarchs still to find. Seriously, where do you people come up with this." So, while I agree the number of Sons on Prospero should increase, I don't agree that the whole Legion should be there. Perhaps a sizeable portion with most of the higher up leadership perhaps. But there should still be something out there, manning the outposts and fighting the Great Crusade. EDIT: Also, the Sons can't get too badly mauled since they're supposed to be the reason Dorn cracks out his Librarians at the Siege of Terra. So yeah, numbers game and all that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Taurulf Posted October 14, 2015 Share Posted October 14, 2015 EDIT: Also, the Sons can't get too badly mauled since they're supposed to be the reason Dorn cracks out his Librarians at the Siege of Terra. So yeah, numbers game and all that. I was wondering what the plan for the Fist librarians was. Where did you hear this from ?? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Conn Eremon Posted October 14, 2015 Share Posted October 14, 2015 It makes sense for there to be part of the Legion offworld, especially considering how vast a Legion's network of worlds and bases tended to be. But not 90%. Not even 50%. Maybe 20% would make sense offworld, as a maximum of pushing it. And Lorgar wasn't ordered to return to his home world and reorganize his Legion from the ground up before being chastised. Magnus was also chastised, to a far worse extent, for disobeying the Emperor's wishes. He wouldn't also have been chastised for obeying the Emperor's wishes. Edit: And honestly, the more Sons you leave on Prospero, the more Sons survive to Terra. If 90% of the Legion is off world, I can see maybe 1/3rd of the Legion survive. Reverse that ratio, and I would expect maybe 3/4s to survive. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kol Saresk Posted October 14, 2015 Share Posted October 14, 2015 EDIT: Also, the Sons can't get too badly mauled since they're supposed to be the reason Dorn cracks out his Librarians at the Siege of Terra. So yeah, numbers game and all that. I was wondering what the plan for the Fist librarians was. Where did you hear this from ?? That's the old background from the Siege of Terra in the IA articles. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Taurulf Posted October 14, 2015 Share Posted October 14, 2015 EDIT: Also, the Sons can't get too badly mauled since they're supposed to be the reason Dorn cracks out his Librarians at the Siege of Terra. So yeah, numbers game and all that. I was wondering what the plan for the Fist librarians was. Where did you hear this from ?? That's the old background from the Siege of Terra in the IA articles. ah cool havent read the IA articles. we shall need to wait and see if they stick to this or change it up. What story is it with the fists librarian and garro where the librarian doesnt know why they have been "imprisioned" in the Phalanx Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Leif Bearclaw Posted October 14, 2015 Share Posted October 14, 2015 I can't see them retaining the ATS numbers for Prospero. Not only would it undermine the entire point of the event (that the Sons are almost wiped out), it would just on the Wolves SoS and Custodes all in one great big lump. It would settle, once and for all the 'Marines +1' arguments, and the answer would be the Thousand Sons. 'We took on a full other Legion, the Emperor's bodyguards and his special anti-psyker squad, and beat the ever-loving tar out of them with a minority of our Legion'. Balls to that. Every member of the XV Legion on Prospero? No, I'm perfetcly fine with some not being present, just as I'd be surprised (given how dispersed the Legions got) if all the VI Legion were there. But it should absolutely remain the vast majority of their forces (90%+). EDIT: Also, the Sons can't get too badly mauled since they're supposed to be the reason Dorn cracks out his Librarians at the Siege of Terra. So yeah, numbers game and all that. Not really, if they sustain the power levels displayed by Ahriman and Maat in ATS, even the original 1000 survivors (and there's no problem with increasing the number of survivors, if they increase the number of participants accordingly) would be enough to give Dorn cause for concern, especially given the numbers disparity at Terra. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wulfkry Posted October 14, 2015 Share Posted October 14, 2015 I thought Chris Wraight did a fantastic job. The Lutherite DA's had a feeling of some current chapter of DA stock (I forget their name) who see their sins absolved and honour restored yet still help with the fallen hunt. The Brutality line i think can be viewed as this. In one book a Jarl drops a moon or massive refinery station on planet who would not comply destroying some ice shields or something. Brutal yes? Maybe no other legion would of done that. The WE on the other hand most like would have landed all their legion troops and just butchered and butchered. Brutal abso-F*****-lutely, but there is a difference. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fire Golem Posted October 14, 2015 Share Posted October 14, 2015 I'm gonna order it tomorrow when I've been paid. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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