Your wait is soon over, brothers... Edit - WS and BA added!

[Leif Bearclaw]

 

The way I see the Wolves were used to punish world that rebelled. If the leadership turned on the Emperor, the Wolves were unleashed, they tore the planet a new one and they stayed loyal subsequently.  The Eaters were sent in when they didn't want to cow the planet with a show of terrible ferocity.  They were sent when the entire planet needed to be cleansed (Edit: because that is what was going to happen regardless of orders, echoing 1000 Sons above)

 

As for the bit about brother Legions, we know they took arms against the World Eaters.  That is enough for the whispers.

 

(Oh and I'n definitely doing a Space Wolf army. War Hounds on one side and Space Wolves on the other).

 

  If you read the World Eaters fluff from Betrayal it actually says the Warhounds were kept back during the initial stages of the Great Crusade, quite possibly as a reserve against treachery by otherwise loyal armies (one assumes this would include the astartes and the Mechanicum). My supposition would be that a conbination of the finding of Leman Russ, and the increasing reports of Warhound savegery actually switched the Emperor's choice from the Warhounds to the Space Wolves as his favoured agents of righteous punishment.

 

Unlikely imo. That doesn't fit with what FW have hinted at with regards to the VI and their role as one of the 'Trefoil Legions'. It seems likely that the VI were always intended for a somewhat shadowy purpose, rather than being a last minute replacement when the XII went killcrazy. If anything the inverse is more likely. We've also been told that there were some difficulties with the VI gene-line, their gene-seed being one of the hardest to successfully implant. Therefore it seems more likely that the XII may have been used as an stopgap 'enforcement Legion' until the VI were in a fit state to slot into their designated role.

[Blindhamster]

Space wolves: fidelity without recourse

Blood angels: fidelitys total

Dark angels: fidelity darkness

White scares: fidelity tear

 

Interesting choice of words... I rather like BAS translation in particular.

 

Anyone know what's written for the other loyalists?

[Azkaellon3]

Dark Angels: Fidelitas tenebrae (shadowed loyality)

White Scars: Fidelitas scindere (split loyality)

Space Wolves: Fidelitas sans recursu (loyality without questioning)

Imperial Fists: Fidelitas totalis (total loyality)

Blood Angels: Fidelitas totalis (total loyality)

Iron Hands: Fidelitas constantus (stable loyality)

Ultramarines: Fidelitas constantus (stable loyality)

Salamanders: Fidelitas totalis (total loyality)

Raven Guard: Fidelitas constantus (stable loyality)

 

But the word choice from forgeworld is not that bad, sure it is quite inaccurate, but if you know the words and learned latein the meaning is pretty clear.

[Blindhamster]

interesting... i wonder what the difference between loyalty without questioning, total loyalty and stable loyalty is.

 

I suppose the loyalty without questioning is a nod to the fact the wolves were used as the group to uphold the Nikea edict.

but the difference between the others is more interesting, what makes the IF and BA stand out as total loyalty rather than stable loyalty?

 

Thoughts on the distinction and why?

[Azkaellon3]

I'd say loyalty without questioning literally is loyalty without questioning (so no moral issues and concerns whatsoever).

Total loyalty probably is absolute loyalty but with moral issues and concerns thrown in (sanguinius and vulkan for example always cared about the people and keeping collateral damage small).

Stable loyalty would be loyalty with questions and different believes in how to do stuff (example would be rawbot and his own little empire, as he valued the emperors ideas of a united mankind more than his father).

 

As to why some legions are "more" loyal...

IF would never abandon the emperor and always do what he says

BA; sanguinius is perhaps the only primarch that shares the emperors vision of a golden age of mankind and knows that the emperor is the only why to achieve this

Salamanders are the good guys and know the emperor is a good guy

 

Ultramarines: imperium secundus...

Iron hands: no unity and many of them are part of rawbots little social experiment

RG: they always had their on ways and fight their battles alone without anyone telling them how to do it

[Jolemai]

What does split loyalty mean for the White Scars?

[Blindhamster]

A pretty large portion of the scars joined horus I thought.

 

Thus split loyalty?

[Jolemai]

A pretty large portion of the scars joined horus I thought.

 

Thus split loyalty?

 

Never knew that. Would have thought split loyalty would be more appropriate for the Dark Angels but...

[Blindhamster]

Dark angels didn't officially side with horus, I suppose the idea is that where a portion of scars turned from the Emperor and aided horus in the war itself, the dark angels have more internal strife which never really affects anyone by the dark angels.

 

The split loyalty is covered in the white scars novella and scars novel, as well as one of the Garro stories. They're the only loyalists to show any real schism in so far in the story.

[Conn Eremon]

I don't think there is a difference between "constantus" and "totalis," they're just trying not to use one phrase too much.

 

The Scars being of "divided loyalty" is probably because of the events in Scars. In that, the legion and primarch deliberately refused to assist Russ and the Wolves, because of his ties to Magnus. He later makes a beeline for Prospero, meets up with another traitor, and puts an end to a intralegionary conflict that was centered on where their loyalties lie.

 

By the end of it, the Scars and the Khan are loyal. But that's a lot going on to make the Imperial authorities wonder.

 

It's more than possible that the events on Prospero don't become public knowledge, but you just know Russ reported the Khan's indecision when he returns to Terra, which is certainly enough to justify the labeling of their allegiance.

[depthcharge12]

I think the whole shadowed loyalty is because the dark Angels went off and did their own thing with their own agenda. Presumably still helping the Imperium at large, but not at the beck and call of the Lords of Terra.

 

I'd like to bring up the NLs and DAs closeness again because the 1st legion seems to be exhibiting the same reclusiveness that Curze and his lot had.

 

However, the Dark Angels, without question, are loyal to the Emperor. Horus wouldn't have sent his own boys plus the entirety of the VIIIth legion to fight the Dark Angels immediately without asking if they wanted to join up. And it isn't a Kyr Valen sort of situation where they were stuck, the Dark Angels are fully committed to the Imperium and/or the Emps.

[noigrim]

The shadowed it's because of the fallen more likely

[depthcharge12]

The shadowed it's because of the fallen more likely

But isn't this during the Heresy timeline and done by an Imperial historian who would have no clue of the Fallen (besides the fact they don't exist until the Scouring)?

[Conn Eremon]

Those who would become the Fallen did exist during this time, and were encountered by other Imperial forces. This could have muddied the waters, though knowledge of the full context of the Fallen would (or at least should and hopefully will) remain utterly unknown.

 

But I do like the idea of it meaning more of a "dark loyalty," as in their loyalty is to the Emperor and not the Imperium, over a "shrouded loyalty," as in there are (unfounded) doubts or concerns.

[helterskelter]

Don't make me bring out the back door deal with perturabo again.

[Blindhamster]

The what?

[helterskelter]

One of the specific DA black library novels. It's a thing. I shall spoiler the details/my opinion on it

 

Lionel offers perturabo some form of ordinatus in exchange for being on "his" side if things get messy. Perty obviously takes the guns and secretly laughs at the lion. Who's super loyal of course because making deals with your brothers to get them on side shows a howling loyalty to dad..

 

[Conn Eremon]

The what?

In the early moments of the Heresy, the Lion came into possession of some very powerful siege weapons.

 

He gave them to Perturabo, alongside the promise that he would stand beside the Lion when he needs him.

 

The implications at the time were inferred that he was taking his own path separate from Horus and the Emperor. The truth was that he had no real knowledge about who was who on the loyalties table, but he didn't trust anybody but himself to stand on the one side that actually mattered (to him): the Emperor's.

 

Not the Imperium's side, like with Guilliman, but the Emperor's.

[noigrim]

The allegiance bit includes heresy events since the sons are excoriate-purged. The dark angels oculted all the fallen incident, hence their allegiance is shrouded in shadows to hide the traitors.

The white scars had some traitors too tough but not a full blown intestine war

[Zebulon]

The white scars had some traitors too tough but not a full blown intestine war

Intestine war sounds painful! Think you meant internecine?

 

On that though, am I right in thinking that the traitor scars were misled by fellow Astartes, I.E. There is no implication that they were corrupted by chaos?

[Iron Hands Fanatic]

Think it's just worth mentioning that all Legions had Loyalist & Traitor elements - the Dark Angels & Scars just had more significant traitor factions than the other Loyalist Legions.

[Azkaellon3]

I'd say split loyalty because of the events of scar and their close ties to some traitors.

 

Shadowed loyalty because nobody really knew the lions agenda. Malcador doubts him, his own legion isn't sure and his best buds are little jawas that are part of the dubious cabal. So his side isn't clear.

Rawbot also wondered why the lion would joins his little empire and not act as he likes to.

Also the stolen vulkan body in deathfire, was probably the lion as well, so yeah he's a huge duchbage with trust issues.

 

And the recent events in wolf king about the Luther loyal Angels helping loyalists and suspecting the lion of maybe being a secret traitor.

[Blindhamster]

Think it's just worth mentioning that all Legions had Loyalist & Traitor elements - the Dark Angels & Scars just had more significant traitor factions than the other Loyalist Legions.

We don't have examples of traitor fists, or traitor space wolves, or traitor ultra marines, in fact we have very few examples of traitors from the loyalists...

 

Iron hands (I think?), a lone raven guard, a number of white scars.

[b1soul]

Hm, in Scars iirc most of Terran aspirants were from Asiatic Dustfields.

Asiatic Hive Clusters...and those would be post Khan Terrans

[Corswain]

I don't think we're supposed to take the latin too literally. It's pretty loose and I think its meant to be fairly interpretive.

 

I would assume DA are something like unknown or clouded loyalty.

The Fallen are unknown to the rest of the Imperium so I would imagine the unknown part is all about the secrety secret Lion being secretive. Whats he up to? Who knows!