Your wait is soon over, brothers... Edit - WS and BA added!

[Memento Of Prospero]

One of the specific DA black library novels. It's a thing. I shall spoiler the details/my opinion on it

 

Lionel offers perturabo some form of ordinatus in exchange for being on "his" side if things get messy. Perty obviously takes the guns and secretly laughs at the lion. Who's super loyal of course because making deals with your brothers to get them on side shows a howling loyalty to dad..

 

 

You may have misunderstood that scene. He hands over the ordinatus in favour of Perturabo's backing in a bid to become the new warmaster once the rebellion settles. That's hardly going behind the Emperor's back, if a bit foolish.

[apologist]

Dark Angels: Fidelitas tenebrae (shadowed loyality)

White Scars: Fidelitas scindere (split loyality)

Space Wolves: Fidelitas sans recursu (loyality without questioning)[...]

 

These three are perhaps the most interesting, but I think the pseudo-Latin High Gothic is intentionally vague. There are lots of alternative translations. For example, Tenebrae could be translated as 'gloomy' or just 'dark' – Ho ho, Forge World! We see what you did there. (I'd suggest 'shadowed' would more likely be 'Umbra' or similar, for the record.) 

 

One interesting translation of tenebrus is 'uncertain', which should strike the out-of-universe reader as fitting, knowing the Dark Angels' fate in 40k. 

 

+++

For the White Scars, scindo can be translated as 'cleaved' as well as 'split'. One has connotations of a violent split, the other is more neutral. It can also be translated into 'cut into pieces', which is interesting – not a simple split down the middle, but into lots of smaller groups.

 

+++

As for the Space Wolves, Fidelitas Sine Recursus is a really interesting phrase. The 'Sine Recursus' bit can be translated as 'without retreat', 'without returning', 'without running back' or even 'without hurrying'. All very odd phrases that could imply 'total faithfulness' (i.e. mindless faithfulness that will never retreat), but could just as easily mean 'faithful, but not obedient' (i.e. faithfulness that won't come to heel).

 

That latter interpretation might imply that the Space Wolves are faithful, but won't obey – which would fit with what we know of the Wolves in the post-Heresy history.

 

+++

Of course, none of this takes away from the main gist of your post, with which I mainly agree; this is just meant as an addendum to suggest it's best for us to look at other possible translations before we jump to conclusions on one uncertain phrase. :)

 

In any case, it should be remembered that the FW HH books are written in a reportage style, so these estimates might be AK's (the signatory at the start of the first FW book) opinion on loyalty – or someone else's. Just as we've discussed the VI legion having no congnomen according to this, when we know they have at least an 'in-house' term for themselves (as seen in Prospero Burns and Howl of the Hearthworld), it's a good old example of Eveything You Have Been Told Is A Lie :)

[Marshal Rohr]

It's 'loyal beyond doubt'

[apologist]

I've never heard 'recursus' translated as doubt, but fair do's. My main point is that I supect the 'High Gothic' is intentionally ambiguous.

[Skalpynock]

[...]or traitor space wolves[...}

While, as far as I know, we indeed haven't heard of traitor Ultramarines, Fists, or Blood Angels yet, Conquest p.19 gives us this concerning the Wolves:

 

Likewise also should be considered the long-denied evidence of a Great Company of the Space Wolves Legion bearing the symbol of the Serpent's Eye slaughtering millions at Neo Cadiz in 008.M31

[Marshal Rohr]

It was either the motto of a Fraternity or unit I've come across in my life. I can't remember which :D

[Leif Bearclaw]

 

[...]or traitor space wolves[...}

While, as far as I know, we indeed haven't heard of traitor Ultramarines, Fists, or Blood Angels yet, Conquest p.19 gives us this concerning the Wolves:

 

Likewise also should be considered the long-denied evidence of a Great Company of the Space Wolves Legion bearing the symbol of the Serpent's Eye slaughtering millions at Neo Cadiz in 008.M31

 

And until there something more than that, I consider that claim to be Alpha legion shenanigans. I seem to recall that throwaway line being one of a list of 'loyal Traitors' and 'traitor Loyalist' contingents, not all of which are specifically denied. Besides, I think the 'every Legion has loyalists and traitors' thing is one of the worst additions FW has made to the Heresy (along with the decimation of the IV). On a similar note, of you want me to accept Legions, like the Fists and Wolves, whose entire schtick is centred around loyalty to the Emperor having Traitor elements, then I expect the inverse, major deployments of Imperial Word Bearers. Bring back the Iconoclasts!

[Skalpynock]

Honestly, I was disappointed by the lack of loyalist Imperial Heralds in that paragraph. Iron Warriors, Emperor's Children, and Dusk Raiders are easy, as are Iron Hands and Pale Nomads. But if even Wolves fell, surely there can be redeeming quality in at least a squad of Bearers of the Word?

[Kol Saresk]

Honestly, I was disappointed by the lack of loyalist Imperial Heralds in that paragraph. Iron Warriors, Emperor's Children, and Dusk Raiders are easy, as are Iron Hands and Pale Nomads. But if even Wolves fell, surely there can be redeeming quality in at least a squad of Bearers of the Word?

Considering the fact that they soent forty years purging any and all elements that were just questionable? Not likely. The only reason Narek got through is because at first he signed on with the plan to go Chaos, didn't like what was happening and so he ran away. His loyalty to the Imperium is questionable at best since he never revoked the Heresy; he's just concerned about his Legion being enslaved bu Chaos.

[Leif Bearclaw]

Which is part of why I dislike the 'all Legions are everything' line. Either it's being shoehorned into Legions who should be pretty uniform in their loyalties, like the SWs, IFs and WBs, or it's just shafting the loyalists 'no Legion is completely loyal to the Emperor, but these guys, they're 100% Traitor, no exceptions'.

 

This was an idea better off never being committed to the FW books.

[Memento Of Prospero]

You keep using that word, but I don't think it means what you think it means - to quote a famous character ;)

 

The Forgeworld statement doesn't mean that all the legions are split by loyalty down the middle. But it does mean that with all the simultaneous deployments of the great crusade, over 200 years of which Horus was on the front lines from the very beginning, there is bound to be many legionnaries (in legions that can number nearly 200,000 marines) that have been under his command and have never seen the Emperor can follow the leader they know. The Scion of nobility, diplomacy, sacrifice and the Warmaster they knew who has bled for them and alongside them is opposed to the unknowable Emperor, who has left the battlefield for some untold reason since Ullanor. The devil you know is the far better choice, so the soldiers follow the great general always.

 

How many of those were stranded partisans of horus with warrior lodges within their ranks? Not all traitors are outright evil, some, if not many were also tragically corrupted. The opposite is also a true statement for loyalist traitors.

[depthcharge12]

I can imagine some marines knew what was going to happen and decided not to pledge for the Emperorknowing quite well the consequences. Some of them might have laid low until the oppurtune time to strike - sort of like the Death Gaurd that fired on Mortation after they were ordered to shoot at Loyalists on Isstvaan 3.

[Marshal Rohr]

There are no traitor Fists. Just space wolves.

[Memento Of Prospero]

There are no traitor Fists. Just space wolves.

 

I am sure some random forgotten garrison somewhere could have turned traitor with the helpful information of the Alpha Legion ;)

[Marshal Rohr]

Impossible. The Fists are incorruptible. The Space Wolves on the other hand are clearly destined to have large numbers side with Horus.

[Leif Bearclaw]

You keep using that word, but I don't think it means what you think it means - to quote a famous character

The Forgeworld statement doesn't mean that all the legions are split by loyalty down the middle.

No. It means exactly what I think it means. The initial comment that sparked off this somewhat tangential exchange, and it's not the only time I've seen this viewpoint espoused, justified by that section in Conquest.

Think it's just worth mentioning that all Legions had Loyalist & Traitor elements - the Dark Angels & Scars just had more significant traitor factions than the other Loyalist Legions.

'Down the middle' is not the stated position, rather it's that every Legion has Loyalists and Traitor elements, of noteworthy size if Conquest is to be believed.

[Fire Golem]

Dorn is incorruptible, I believe. Doesn't necessarily mean the Fists are. I think traitor fists are unlikely, but not impossible.

[Spinsanity]

Traitor Fists impossible? What was the whole Dornian Heresy about, then?

[Marshal Rohr]

I can only assume the mad ramblings of traitor space wolves in service of the warmaster.

[Conn Eremon]

There were loyalists among the Traitor Legions and there were traitors among the Loyalists, because of course there was. It was a civil war that spanned an entire galaxy, spearheaded by individuals worshiped as gods, whether they used the words worship and gods or not.

 

The idea that the lines of loyalty were so cut and dried has been a long-term misconception born from having too few details. It's apparently easy, but just as apparently inaccurate, to assume that some snapshot scene is representative of the entire galaxy, and all of its occupants, over incredible periods of time. When it's all you have, it's understandable. But it requires that it be all you have to be understandable.

 

The expansion of the setting has provided a deeper understanding where before we had only shallow myths, and therefore shows the misconception for what it is. It was an inevitable conclusion of FW or BL doing anything at all with this time period. Things we had no idea about we now know. Things that some had wrongfully assumed are now corrected.

[Blindhamster]

Till I see a traitor blood angel or traitor imperial fist... I'm going to assume fidelitas totalis means there were none. :)

[Blindhamster]

Or more to the point (as far as blood angels are concerned)

 

If there will be traitors, it happens very late (later than where we are at the moment)

 

All blood angels mustered for the mission to signus with the exception of a small group that are left on baal, none were shown to go traitor at either location.

 

If a blood angel goes traitor it in theory means he goes traitor whilst in close proximity to his primarch, whom he is specifically attuned to (hence the whole black rage after the angel dies)

[Marshal Rohr]

Laurie G has said there were Blood Angels not at Signus or Baal (we are about to see them in Retaliation). Don't kill the fluff for my Dominion :P

[rendingon1+]

http://cdn.meme.am/instances2/500x/3264516.jpg

[Kastor Krieg]

Dark Angels: Fidelitas tenebrae (shadowed loyality)

White Scars: Fidelitas scindere (split loyality)

Space Wolves: Fidelitas sans recursu (loyality without questioning)[...]

These three are perhaps the most interesting, but I think the pseudo-Latin High Gothic is intentionally vague. There are lots of alternative translations. For example, Tenebrae could be translated as 'gloomy' or just 'dark' – Ho ho, Forge World! We see what you did there. (I'd suggest 'shadowed' would more likely be 'Umbra' or similar, for the record.)

One interesting translation of tenebrus is 'uncertain', which should strike the out-of-universe reader as fitting, knowing the Dark Angels' fate in 40k.

Mmm, interpretative artificial linguistics! Yum!

I'd also wager this can be read as "loyal to the Dark", WHICH can mean that Dark Angels are loyal only unto THEMSELVES (hence the whole "Inner Circle", "one Deathwing, one Ravenwing among all chapters" and "a Legion of Unforgiven Chapters" thing), but ALSO that the Angels are loyal or BROTHERS to the Dark Ones, the Rock's own little Jawas. Layers unto layers, we have another Alpha Legion on our hands.

But, wait! MAYBE with Caliban destroyed, AL impersonated DA as a whole and thus remained hidden during and after the Heresy. And that's why they haven't made it to Terra. And that's why they have a loyal faction chasing a traitor faction, because ALL THE SECRETS. And that's what Cypher is carrying to Terra - the Pale Spear and his intent is to pledge allegiance to Him on the Golden Throne to redeem the loyalist Alpha Legion? Only there's also Omegon, doing EXACTLY THE SAME, but intent on SLAYING the Emperor? He is racing against his brother, each head of the Hydra snapping at each other, which indefinitely stalls them both and they've been at this since they fled into the Eye and reformed?

Don't mind me, instant head canon.

For the White Scars, scindo can be translated as 'cleaved' as well as 'split'. One has connotations of a violent split, the other is more neutral. It can also be translated into 'cut into pieces', which is interesting – not a simple split down the middle, but into lots of smaller groups.

It can also mean "jagged", which carries the meaning above even better, is a good image of a jagged hunter spear AND is close phonetically to Jaghatai!

We may have taken these too far, but they seem such great food for thought.

As for the Space Wolves, Fidelitas Sine Recursus is a really interesting phrase. The 'Sine Recursus' bit can be translated as 'without retreat', 'without returning', 'without running back' or even 'without hurrying'. All very odd phrases that could imply 'total faithfulness' (i.e. mindless faithfulness that will never retreat), but could just as easily mean 'faithful, but not obedient' (i.e. faithfulness that won't come to heel).

That latter interpretation might imply that the Space Wolves are faithful, but won't obey – which would fit with what we know of the Wolves in the post-Heresy history.

The right of recourse - the right to recover the worth of a bad debt. The Wolves are there to ensure that should one fail, he will pay the ultimate price even though the debt he had, the loyalty he had, "went bad".

Of course, none of this takes away from the main gist of your post, with which I mainly agree; this is just meant as an addendum to suggest it's best for us to look at other possible translations before we jump to conclusions on one uncertain phrase.

It's very fun to dwell on the possible meaning of such catchphrases, one can get really creative with contextualizing the possible translations within the limits of what we do and do not know about the story and the participants.