[HH1.0] Dark Angels Tactics

[The Lord of Iron]

the plus one for sniper veterans makes sense when you think about it, and the Ultramarine get the same thing. Although I don't like that the dark angels have another rule that benefits veterans more than any other unit. As it stands the legion seems way to focused on them.

 

If you aren't going to run predators or vindicators you are best off not running iron wing.

 

I personally wouldn't run an all bike raven wing list. Too few models for my taste.

[Asterlanus]

Well at the moment they are our "unique" unit in a sense.

My way would run them with a Praetor, (maybe a herald or knight errant) a chaplain and an apothecary with 1 caliban sword, and maxing the squad out with power swords and axes, furious charge and 10 volkite serpenetas (because volkite is our favourite weapon).

Otherwise something like anvillus drop pod vets with tank hunters and missile launchers meltabombs etc.

Or sniper heavy bolters (Really a point to take the ammo?).

I also queried the basic legion rules and pretty much got a "don't know" as to why they were written the way they were. (Why didn't you just do a flat +1 to hit with sword weapons, why do they have the -D3 VP's when it doesn't match any fluff, if you do insist on it why not just make it martial hubris to not force DA players to play horde-ish armies).

Also in regards to the Ironwing because of the way it was written had to clarify because of the way you do modifiers in the game flat bonus modifiers always take effect the last. So the way FW wrote their BS bonus rules technically meant you could snap fire at BS5 simply because it's a flat "You fire at BS5" modifier.

If anything I think the DA rules are oddly specific compared to other legion rules and added last minute without any real thought.

Pretty much DA rules atm to me feel like cash grab army. They know the DA's have a large fan base so want to rake in money off us. Making our basic rules force us to bring MSU's to try and offset the potential D3 VP loss simply because someone brought more units then you.

Otherwise our specialist units will have to be complete beasts and wipe out a unit a turn easily to compensate for (IMHO the worst legion rules out so far).

Will probably see a character or the lion himself make veteran tacticals troops or it will be part of the Deathwing. Please I hope the Deathwing is done properly and artificer units and not terminators...

 

[Kossaka]

It wouldn't surprise me to get a 2+ unit with Caliban Blades and a Terrance Greatsword on the Sargent, and having a special character make those troops. I really hope we do get the other wings as RoW to make playing DA mean something different each time. What Special characters do people think that the DA will get and what will they bring to the table?

 

 

EDIT: DA make me really want to get back into the hobby and collect a new army. Had so sell off most of my stuff over the years, but HH is mighty compelling to actually start collecting and not proxy with what I had. 

Edited March 27, 2016 by Kossaka

[depthcharge12]

I say not to worry for now, because we could not have rules at the moment either. I think our true strength to balance out the poorly uneven odds in our legion rules will be all the wings that come out and possibly the extra wargear and units we get. Not to mention that nearly all the legions had adjustments in the latest update - SoH went from eh to a really strong army with their RoW, death dealers, and Justaerin updates.

 

FW is just testing the water man :) trust me, I felt the same way after books two and three made the beginning traitor legions obsolete. We will get updates, and they will rock your damn socks off and you'll lement playing some middling thin blood legion than the honored first!

[The Lord of Iron]

I'm not worried. The dark angels have all the right gear, its just not where it needs to be.

 

Plasma Repeaters are awesome but with a 6'' salvo they need to be on something that is either relentless or something that is going to be in close combat. From what I've heard Forge world has said that bikes can't take them so that leaves all of two units that can use them Veteran and Support squads. Support squads are going to have to replace every gun to get them so that is at least 100 points, they do not want to be in close combat, and are still MEQ. Dropping at least 200 points on a five man unit with a 12'' - 6'' range is not a good idea. So that leaves Veterans who are going to at least be amenable to close combat, and who can hide the guns a little better while they get into range.

 

Stasis Missiles again a great weapon but are brought down by what can take them. First whatever takes them has to have LA(Dark Angels) meaning no tanks. Second the only things that can take them for more than a single use are Veteran, and Heavy Support squads. Heavy support squads are not going to be making use of the bonus themselves. And really using a whole Heavy support squad to debuff a squad that is about to be charged is a waste, at the very least you could be firing krak missiles and dropping bodies instead of stats (or finding better targets for a heavy support squad). There is the 50 extra points to get the missiles on a full squad that could probably be better use elsewhere. Finally both of the dark angels Row require that infantry begin the game in transports (raven wing even starts off the board) radically decreasing the use of heavy support squads by reducing the number of turns they can fire by at least one. That just leaves the Veteran squad again, who can use them very well but they still over lap with the other two weapons and the legion's only rule.

 

Acid shells are another great weapon limited by the few units that can take them and even fewer that can actually make use of them. As Far as I can tell the only units that can take them are Attack Bike, Jetbike, Dreadnought, Veteran and Heavy support squads. Heavy Support squads are out for the above reasons, and the fact that heavy support squads with heavy bolters are going to get mulched. Dreadnoughts are going to want something that can trade with heavier targets especially with tank hunter so nothing for them. Leaving Attack Bikes, Jetbikes, and Veterans which can all use the weapons, but need "supporting elements" in either Row to be used (Transports for the Veteran's, Tanks for the bikes). Although the bikes do work exceedingly well in raven wing

[Cactus]

I'm away from my books right now but I thought the molecular acid shells could be taken by vehicles too.

 

Also, a heavy support squad could fire a mix of stasis and krak missiles. I don't think there's any rule that says they must all choose the same ammo when shooting.

[The Lord of Iron]

only dreads can take acid shells, every other vehicle is out of luck.

 

still wouldn't take them on a heavy support squad. I just don't think its worth it.

[Slips]

If you're going monster hunting (Like vs anything that can spam high toughness like: Tau, Nids, 30k Mechanicum, etc.) then having Heavy Bolters that are Poisoned 2+ and has a chance of getting Ap1/2/3 is pretty scary when you consider that 10man HB HSS Squad is pumping out 30 Shots at 36" 

 

They're fragile though and probably a safer investment on Jetbikes.

[Charlo]

Heavy squad, bunker, apothecary.

 

Cheap, resilient, powerful!

[The Lord of Iron]

except to do that you would have to forgo using either of the Dark Angel Row and at that point why are you even playing the dark angels?

[Charlo]

Because you like the knightly dudes in black and silver and don't want to be ham fisted into playing a load of bikes or tanks!

[The Lord of Iron]

I'm all for playing whatever you want, you're just going to be playing without a lot of the rules that make the dark angels unique. With no unique units or characters, no Row, and a almost none existent legion rule all you would have left to fall back on is their special weapons.

[Asterlanus]

This is what I ended up coming up with for my 2k DA list to just have some models to play around with, (If you're part of the 30k DA group on FB would of seen me post up my WIP cataphractii terminator mixed with current gen terminator armour tabards).

This army is pretty much going to be made out of spare models I have from buying BAC sets for my Alpha Legion & Iron Warriors haha!

Pride of the Legion - 1,999 Points
Delegatus - Greatsword - Combi-Plasma - Cataphractii Terminator Armour
Command Squad - Power Fist - Power Sword x2 - Power Axe x2 - Plasma Blaster - Combi-Plasma x4

Terminator Squad - Calbanite War Blade - Combi-Plasma - Plasma Blaster x2 - Power Fist x2 - Power Axe x3 - Power Sword x4

Terminator Squad - Calbanite War Blade - Combi-Plasma - Plasma Blaster x2 - Power Fist x2 - Power Axe x3 - Power Sword x4

Contemptor - Plasma Blaster - Plasma Cannon - Extra Armour
Contemptor - Plasma Blaster - Plasma Cannon - Extra Armour

Deredeo Dreadnought - Anvillus Autocannons - Aiolos Missile Launcher

Deredeo Dreadnought - Anvillus Autocannons - Aiolos Missile Launcher

Played a game where I was helping out a 3k list of BA's and Salamanders, against 5k of EC and WB with Lorgar and Fulgrim (we had no primarchs). We ended up killing everything except 10 models which conveniently was on the objective for mission 3 shadow war book 6.

So we ended up losing but was surprised at how much damage my army did, dreadnoughts killed over 2k points (just, was about 2025). Without suffering any damage haha. But lost one terminator squad, half of the other, and my delegatus and command squad.

 

Edited March 28, 2016 by Asterlanus

[Charlo]

How did you find the DA rules affecting the game? Or did it just feel a little vanilla?

[Slips]

Delegatus cant take TDA iirc. Edited March 28, 2016 by Slipstreams

[TemujinZero]

They can. Heralds can't.

[Slips]

They can. Heralds can't.

Hmm, thanks, wasnt sure.

[Asterlanus]

Overall,

The +1 to hit never came in to effect because fighting EC with sonic shriekers just reduced me to -1 WS anyway (Was trying out the new grenade launchers and stasis shell rules).

Honestly our rules make 0 difference to the game. Was just a vanilla force. To be honest I'd rather just play DA's with stubborn USR then the DA rules.

Unless you use the RoW's there is nothing that makes the armies feel "DA", also the greatsword did about as poo as expected haha.

And luckily we ended up killing enough of his army to make him no longer outnumber mine so he didn't get the +D3 VP's on top of his already 5 for shadow war mission 3 lol.

Edited March 29, 2016 by Asterlanus

[Charlo]

Hmm.... More play testing needed then it seems. Such a shame, hopefully the 1st Legion will ride to glory when book 8 rolls around.

 

Or at least not have some super restrictive Rites of War.

[Asterlanus]

Well we have sup-par rules/equipment now. That's the standard for which all our things will be like in the future. :/

Don't expect much from FW, DA's seem to me at least a rushed force that they tacked on without any real thought of what the 1st legion actually represents.

I keep thinking of trying to do an iron wing force. But just don't want to field spams of predators/vindicators as I am not a fan of the models for a DA army. Though the las vindicators do look cool. It just doesn't seem to fit my image of the DA's being a decisive strike force. So will probably run two Sicaran Battle Tanks in my HS take some dreadnoughts and mans in tanks and call it a day as an alternative to my 2k terminator "spares" list lol.

If it was up to me I'd make their WS bonus be a flat +1 to hit at all times with sword weapons, and replace the stupid D3 lost victory points for the Alpha Legion's Martial Hubris which fits more (not that it even fits the DA's in the first place).

The Greatsword would be AP2, master crafted, +2 str, no instant death but might have something like murderous strike or something similar? Or Sunder would work quite well. The normal calbanite war blades are fine but don't need to be restricted to characters.

The plasma whatever, seriously? Is this thing even useful for anyone? Looked at it and instantly wrote it off. (Let's not even forge the DA's preferred Volkite over everything during the HH because 1st legion has all the things! Should of made it 18" range at least so it's not completely useless. (Why is this not a weapon that the terminators can take as well?).

Stasis missiles and grenades, works fine. Not really needed and a weird throw in with the 40k dark angels. (See 1st legion we has stuff?)

HB Acid rounds. Okay these are the only piece of wargear I even consider as decent. Even then because of the wording rolling all of them into their separate AP values and then separating them into different dice pools is needless dice rolling.

The Ravenwing ROW makes me chuckle, because you get re-rolls to wound (or +1 I forget) against T5 models. But if you take rad grenades you then lose that bonus because they get -1 Toughness.

DA rules and wargear to me just seem like a hodge podge last minute affair that they threw together because they had to "give" something to DA players to try and sell more, as I am assuming majority players are just waiting on rules, and boy the rules they got given... :/



 

[1ncarnadine]

The plasma whatever, seriously? Is this thing even useful for anyone? Looked at it and instantly wrote it off. (Let's not even forge the DA's preferred Volkite over everything during the HH because 1st legion has all the things! Should of made it 18" range at least so it's not completely useless. (Why is this not a weapon that the terminators can take as well?).

 

Has there ever been anything explicitly stating the 1st Legion used a bunch of Volkite or is that something the community crafted up? Genuinely curious, as I can't remember anything in the FW books about it but I do remember speculation about DA rules and Volkite RoW wish-listing. If it's from the Black Library novels I've definitely missed it because I skipped those due to lack of interest.

 

But yeah those plasma repeaters are pretty lame. Maybe if they were purchasable by Terminator units? Or maybe there will be a legion unique Terminator unit down the line that is or can be armed entirely with them? Pretty awful otherwise.

 

 

The Ravenwing ROW makes me chuckle, because you get re-rolls to wound (or +1 I forget) against T5 models. But if you take rad grenades you then lose that bonus because they get -1 Toughness.

 

Wow didn't notice that interaction. That's not too bad though, because it's vs T5 or more, so you can reduce Mechanicum nasties like Vorax & Arlatax down to T5 with the rad 'nades and still get the re-roll. In a pure 30k environment you only lose out vs a handful of special characters, Thallax, Ursarax and some Mechanicum HQ options.

[Asterlanus]

Can't remember where else but they also have some volkite love for the DA's in the Glaives entry on the FW site.

"While the Glaive has been issued to all eighteen Legions Astartes in limited quantities, the Salamanders (also our only Sworn Brother) and Dark Angels have long been noted to field Glaives as a matter of course; the XVIIIth Legion's artifice more than sufficient to maintain and replicate the arcane Volkite Technology, while the provenance and honour of the 1st Legion means that their war materiel and weaponry are ancient indeed."

Taken directly from the FW site (seriously how do you paste into this had to type that all across :/ )

There are some other references to their love of volkite elsewhere, but I can't remember exactly where. The Plasma Love comes from I believe 2nd edition where DA's were the only ones able to take Plasma Cannons in their Tactical squads or something like that when you use to be able to give chapter rules to people. That's where the "Plasma Love" originated. The stasis shells etc were just thrown in to give them something unique because there was nothing DA's had over pleb marines in 40k.

[hivey]

Ive personally made a PotL list for my DA. Praetor with full honor guard and primus medicae, all on jetbikes with acid rounds. Nemean reaver, who wont join any squad right away. 3 full vet squads all in rhinos, sergeants have calabanite blades. 1 has 2 missiles with stasis, 1 has 2 heavy bolters with acid, 1 is missile and heavy bolter with special ammo. Full destroyer squad with missile launchers in a rhino, 2x 6 man bike squads with plasma guns and sergeants with calabanite blades. 1 xiphon, 1 leviathan with drill and grav, in a pod.

 

Also have a moritat with 2 volkites who will sometimes be in the list, riding with the destroyers (take a missile dude out of the squad), replacing the nemean reaver.

[Charlo]

Do keep in mind everyone the rules are the absolute baseline at this point. Just to tide us over until book 8 (maybe 9).

 

Think about how minimal the Original sons of Horus rules were? Lots of time to improve.

 

If you like the DA stick with it! I think the rules are pretty nifty myself.

[Sevatar]

I do quite like the special gear the Dark Angels get but I think their Legion rules are a little lacklustre. I would change the Masters of the Blade to a flat +1 to hit for swords or hit on a 3+ if you do not have sword but have equal weapon skill. I would also try and emphasise their tactical ability more...perhaps something similar to the Edge of the Spear the SoH enjoy? 

 

At the end of the day this is just wish listing. I do hope the rules are updated (and improved)