[HH1.0] Dark Angels Tactics

[rendingon1+]

I think 3+ to hit vs equal WS is fine except it should be with any weapon.

[The Lord of Iron]

Not really. Even if it was a +1 to hit against equal weapon skill with any weapon that would still be really lackluster.
 

[hivey]

Maybe they should have made it 3+ to hit equal WS, while they hit you on 5+?

[Slips]

That would make for some Nonsensical edge cases. If they get a WS7 Character who isnt the Primarch, for example, vs other WS7 Character (like Khârn and Siggy), theyd be hitting them on a 3 and being hit on a 5.

 

Pass.

 

And said WS7 Character would be able to apply the same effect to WS7 Primarchs.

 

Again, Hell Nope.

[rendingon1+]

I have to agree with that. Besides LA rules are about buffs not debuffs.

[hivey]

Was just a (bad) thought :P

[Slips]

It would be better to give a flat +1 to hit with any non-unwieldy CCW army wide and rending in a challenge or a further +1 to hit/wound in a challenge for characters.

[ShadowCore67]

Maybe make it so that +1 to hit only requires that they have swords and can allow them to hit on 2+?

[Blindhamster]

Hitting on 2s is too much.

 

The rule for swords is fine imo, but they ought to have some extra rule on top of it, something to do with hunting perhaps? Or as a good buff to promote higher use of plasma weapons perhaps rerolling gets hot or ignoring it completely?

[Slips]

Tell that to the Night Lords who can get massed 2+ To-Hit when they outnumber.

[depthcharge12]

Maybe it should be that they get an additional attack with a sword weapon? Or maybe a flat +1 to wound with sword weapons?

[Blindhamster]

+1 to hit and wound but only with swords would be great

[rendingon1+]

I think that 'way of the sword' is not a way we should follow. Sure, it could be a special rule for characters (like IF,WE,EC) but it shouldn't be DA main/only LA rule. I hope Fw will see this and change it to something more practical and reasonable. Most of all I hate the fact DA are equippment based legion which is really stupid because of background, limitations, and sole fact of being vanilla without swords and shells.

[depthcharge12]

It's be cool to get the SoH rule from the Long March RoW where you get to reroll all 1's for shooting in the first turn to represent the Dark Angels large arsenal.

 

Honestly, I'm telling you all the Dreadwing RoW will be similiar to the FW Dtar Phantom's rule where they get twin linked to all weapons for one turn.

[rendingon1+]

I just hope for decent LA rules that can work with or without RoWs. I don't like the idea of RoWs being our way - you should be able to build an army which can go without them. Just look at the Scars. These are proper la rules and they work perfectly without Chogorian Brohood.

[Charlo]

I'll say it once and I'll say it again. Scars rules are overtly powerful because they will be the last ones getting models (bar demon Primarchs etc I imagine), and bikes in themselves are inherently powerful, so buffs compound on them higher.

 

DA will get units and probably an update to la rules that will probably put the whole picture in place :D

[rendingon1+]

Doesn't change a fact our present rules are bad. And I certainly can't see a bright side of waiting 1,5y for normal rules while stuck with... this. For me it just doesn't work. I once said I'd prefere full colours schemes and unit markings instead of rules to build an army while waiting for HH book with Da rules. Pity it didn't went that way.

[Blindhamster]

It's no different from the BA LA rule really. We angels just have to work with what we have and power through it.

[The Lord of Iron]

Except the BA rule is a decent 16.67% increase in damage across all cc. It may not be the most imaginative thing forge world has done but at least it is effective. No stupid restrictions on its use, no you must use weapon x while your opponents has ws y.

[Blindhamster]

Except the BA rule is a decent 16.67% increase in damage across all cc. It may not be the most imaginative thing forge world has done but at least it is effective. No stupid restrictions on its use, no you must use weapon x while your opponents has ws y.

has no benefit against vehicles (including walkers) and has no benefit against very high toughness enemies (which is admittedly situational but will happen vs admech and is important if enemies have a means to reduce a units strength (such as enfeeblement for example - which i myself have used to great effect). In terms of wargear, the HQ only sword is awesome, but everything else is naff - even the assault cannon thing isn't all its cracked up to be and is apparently going to get FAQd to be unusable on some of the only things people seem to actually want to use them on.

 

The DA rule is more situational but vs legion units is likely to happen a lot more than its being given credit for, but once DA have their own unique melee units (which are more or less guaranteed to have swords now) they'll hit other legions unique units on 3s. It also means that your praetors hit other praetors on 3s, it also means anything else hits an equivalent unit on 3s... so long as you use swords - and you get a sword for the same cost as everyone elses swords (including BA) that has +1 Str, likewise, all the unique melee weapons are swords. Then there are also the Debuff weapons that can be used. The real big issue with DA legion rules is the negative one which is potentially a game losing one that you have no control over.

 

either way, like i said above, either having the rule have some extra bit (like the aforementioned  idea of wounding easier with swords being lumped in with the hitting easier) or some other extra rule would not go amiss for DA. Really its a case of both legions having very unimaginative special rules and a distinct lack of them compared to most legions (which seem to have on average 2, often 3 beneficial rules)

 

[Asterlanus]

Would be more then happy to swap, you can have our +1 to hit with swords on equal WS and we will take your +1 to wound.

The 2her sword is pointless outside of fighting Mechanicum (and maybe IW iron circle). The War Blade of Caliban is terrible. Characters don't need an AP3 weapon especially as you can count how many 3+ save IC's there are on one hand. I don't think I've seen anyone not take 2+ saves on their sergeants.

I have played about 10 games so far and the times where +1 to hit on equal WS has come in effect has been a total of 3 times in about 30 combats. Whereas having that flat +1 to wound, would of made a much bigger difference.

Overall wargear for the DA's is meh at best, if it was accessible by more then just characters and IC's (seriously that 2her sword is only good for characters, wouldn't waste it on a IC). They would be better. The rest of the wargear outside of stasis rounds which is way to situational and acid rounds being our only decent wargear.

DA's are just a "meh" legion. I only play them because I like the legion, otherwise I wouldn't touch them without a ten foot pole. Not including our basic rules which are already a massive negative.

BA's have synergy with their rules, rites of war, and wargear. DA's are just a hodge podge of afterthoughts followed by misinformed rules writers about the legion.

Edited April 4, 2016 by Asterlanus

[shandwen]

The DA's rather poor rules mirror that of the ultramarines. Let us all hope that just like the ultra's the DA get sweet, sweet legion specific units.

[Asterlanus]

But the Ultramarine rules are really good...? The +1 to wound and armour pens are a pretty big deal and is great as a basic rule (plus re-roll charge distances in regards to already engaged units), their (must take a pinning test of the warlord dies) and confer an extra VP if all HQ's die which can be hard to do in a game. Their hey we are always LD10 for regroup and fear tests is amazing as well.

Ultramarine Basic rules are very good with the penalties being virtually non-existent compared to other legions penalties.

Not including the Ultramarine units are some of the strongest units in the game, not including their Primarch which is a top tier primarch as well.

Comparing DA's sub-par rules to the Ultramarines pretty much top tier rules is silly lol. DA's at the moment have the worst legion rules in the game. With one needing too many requirements to take effect and the other being the worst negative out of any other legion in the game.

Ultramarines actually have 80-90% positives when it comes to their rules.

Their rites of war might be sub-par and not all that flash hot. But their rules are great, and the legatine axe and mantle of ultramar are excellent pieces of wargear as well.

Edited April 4, 2016 by Asterlanus

[Slips]

=][=

Alright, we get it the DA rules aren't great. Cool. Now move on because the near-constant whining I've seen on the last two pages is irritating.

If you have a Problem with the rules as they stand, Email Forgeworld about them instead of whining on-and-on about it on a forum that really cant do anything about it.

Honestly, Forgeworld couldn't have come out a winner in this scenario either way:

Either they release a clearly unfinished and in-testing ruleset to appease Dark Angels fans.

Or

They just don't and get chewed out by fans wondering "Where are our rules? The BA and WS got theirs why not us?"

Hold final judgement for the actual book treatment where things are pretty much guaranteed to change.

If y'all are hell bent on not posting constructively then we're going to have problems.

By constructive, I don't mean force yourself to be a happy radiant rainbow of sunshine and happiness but complaining about things outside of your control?

Yeah.

No.

We ain't about that.

Work with what you've got (or don't), be creative, be inventive, be smart, help each other out with figuring out what to do and how to make the best use of it.

Wait for the full, complete book treatment.

=][=

Edited April 4, 2016 by Slipstreams

[Asterlanus]

Well at the moment, there's not much to work with so comparing our rules against other legions is what we're stuck with, along with wargear and rites of war.

Other legion players coming in and saying "your rules aren't that bad compared to so & so" is just going to fuel the debate about how bad our rules actually are over and over again.

In regards to our rules & wargear yes they are poorly written, clearly not play tested and have been inputted with little thought. People are going to whinge when you've been handed a steaming pile of .... Whatever you want to say. Whinging is part of finding the cure, because people will find alternatives because they are frustrated.

In regards to Ironwing, taking Sicaran Battle Tanks & Venator over predators etc seems the way to go with me, we don't want a static list with Ironwing which is what the predators and vindicators will cause, along with the predator cannon being the only one to get help from the BS5, so would rather just bring a Sicaran to allow me to have good firepower on an excellent platform. (Though running squadrons will help us not lose the extra D3 VP's).

For our lists for Ironwing I wouldn't look at going over 2000 points until we get full legion rules (hopefully changed), rewritten rites of war and some decent wargear (fingers crossed here!). Decent wargear can make up for sub-par rules.

Okay for Ironwing here is our options:
HQ's:
I wouldn't look at anything else except a delegatus here, cheap, cheerful and has master of the legion. (Give him a Terranic Greatsword for extra LoL's)
If you want to try and field more alternative units an additional HQ being the Damocles command rhino can assist here and be used as a transport for your delegatus and another unit of small models (like a command unit).

Troops:
In regards to our troops, well we are shoehorned into taking tactical squads in rhinos, there really is no other option we can take.

Elites:
Due to the rules I would only be looking at either Cortus/Contemptor dreadnoughts here (Maybe standard to save points and we still have the DA legion dreadnought at least) Multi-Melta/Chainfist/Lascannon/kheres dreadnoughts here boyos. Along with Veteran tactical squads who will get awesome 3+ sniper to wound rolls due to our bonus with Ironwing. (Take acid shell HB's here or MLers to take full effect). Also look at taking 9 to throw your delegatus in here.

Fast Attack:
Don't even look at this section unless you want to consider some seekers in a proteus, could be useful with their ammo options as +1 to wound on those blasts could be hilarious. Take one less for optimal effect with a delegatus.

Heavy Support:
Well, here's where things get tough, we need to fill out our HS to be able to take an army to go with our other bits. Ironwing is restrictive and shoe-horns us into a lot of choices we otherwise might not take.

What does this leave us with for HS? Well we have to take tanks, so that will leave us with Artillery Squadrons & Scorpius, Land Raider Squadrons, Spartans, & Achilles, Predator Squadrons, Vindicator Squadrons, and the Pair of Sicaran Battle Tanks.

To get the most out of the rules you will be wanting to look at the actual squadrons, so Predators/Vindicators. The only issues with these two squadrons is that the Predator needs to take the Autocannon to get the most use and the Vindicators the Laser, now comes the other issue. These are forced into static units simply because of the fact that moving is a severe detriment to their firepower leaving your tacticals and other units without much close support. (Unless you can fit in a few dreadnoughts).

Now you will want to max out your heavy support, so either take two units of 3 predators with anti-infantry goals through WOD and three Las Vindicators to pop vehicles. This is a viable strategy.

Overall I think rather then trying to get the bonus of the +1 BS of Ironwing squadrons we should be looking at taking Sicarans which can be fast mobile support vehicles that will help us push up and support the Tacticals & Dreadnoughts effectively while also saving points.

Now we move on to Ravenwing Protocols. There are some odd contradictions in this force with rad grenades being able to adversely effect our re-roll to wounds against T5 or more models. (Can't remember if they also make troops be able to take fliers as dedicated transports but it escapes me at the moment).

Now let's move onto our army list options:

HQ's:
Delegatus will fulfil all the roles we need here, jetbike with acid shells will allow him to get much more efficiency then you will see in the IWing lists. Give him a Terranic Greatsword for the Lol's once again because why not? He doesn't have that much in regards to wargear options anyway and it's str6 at initiative.

This time you want to be taking a command squad, throw in a primus medicae on jetbike here as well, load up on rad grenades and go hunting with a couple of swords and power fists along with acid shells.

Troops:
Jetbikes, only jetbikes. Take either Plasma Cannons or Multi-Meltas as your heavy option. I would say go for the Plasma as taking the acid shells will prevent the HB's being able to be used against light medium vehicles on rear armour/side armour. Along with the Plasma still being useful against light and medium vehicles in a pinch. Take 6 guys, load up on meltabombs and a sergeant with rad grenades and a calbanite war blade because why not eh? Gotta use them legion rules somehow.

Now that's filled out about 1k+ of our army of 2k.

Elites:
Well nothing you could really consider worth investing in here

Fast Attack:
Now we come to the meat of the Ravenwing force, this is our heavy support. Looking at Javelin Land Speeders with missiles, extra missiles and multi-meltas to go tank hunting for your anti-infantry jet bike units to chase after and finish off.

Our other option you would consider is the Xiphon Interceptor or Strike Fighter, giving you some good tank hunting options to support your infantry, for a fairly decent point cost.

Heavy Support:
There's one option here, Fire Raptor. Either take it or don't that's it really haha! Good at cleaving infantry, which is all you really need it to do, but with your jetbikes command squads and the rest already being able to kill infantry points are best left spent elsewhere.

Now tactics for these two armies:

For Iron Wing, you're really left with only two options, a defensive wall of vehicles with infantry and dreadnoughts for counter assault and late objective capping. (this would be the way to go due to our legion rules allowing you to deal with major threats before they can get close to your units).

Use your delegatus to get personal warlord trait, for the re-roll 1's to hit for all units within 12" put him in a vehicle of some description and chain units so that they are within 12" of him, BS5 predators with re-roll 1's! AMAZEHN!

Or a mass armoured push into the enemy forcing them to deal with the threats allowing your infantry to score objectives and finish off weakened units with impunity with tank hunting dreadnought support, worst case scenario you will have to sit still a few turns to allow yourself to get most effective shooting phases out of your predators or vindicators if you don't go the Sicaran route.

Now we come to the Raven Wing list:

Probably the harder of the two to take advantage of due to low model count and if you don't survive and deal major damage looking at losing some VP's due to our legion rules.

Delegatus here will get two dice rolls and a re-roll for warlord traits so strategic is the way to go, try and get stealth ruins and move through cover, MTC isn't really needed (As I think we already get it) but stealth ruins will help us out extremely. You can attempt for a personal warlord trait to give everyone within 12" re-rolls 1's to hit with either shooting or close combat which can be useful as well.

The objective of this game is to hug cover, like it's your lover, give it tender kisses and cuddles. Cover is our friend, our lover, our future spouse. Use your javelins to pick off vehicles and have your jetbikes move out to focus down one unit at a time. This is a precision strike force, if you don't play it as such you will be quickly worn down by spreading out your forces.

Commit this army to one flank, crush it, use the advantage of your speed to pick off units that will be the greatest threat to your forces.

You aren't durable so you need to double check where every unit is and what has sight to it and what they can do.

Hope this gives you some insights into the Legion and what it's capable of at this point in time. If you want to discuss and go over tactics of these two rites let me know. I will either personally be running a pride force of terminators and dreadnoughts to tide me over in a 2k list or something similar to the ravenwing idea earlier. Or a mixture of the two to give me something to do

Edited April 4, 2016 by Asterlanus