Dominus Maniple

[Master Avoghai]

Just a rule clarification as I do not currently have the Cult Mechanicus book with me; if the Dominus joins the unit of Skitarii,then I get to pull both the Canticles and Doctrina Imperatives (but only the Dominus benefits from the Canticles, and the Skitarii benefits only from the Doctrina)? I don't recall the Canticles though, so perhaps it's of extremely minimal use when there's only one model that benefits from it.

That's it.

 

Only units WITH canticles can benefit from their effects and only units with doctrina can benefit from their effects.

[Dawnstrider]

It is worth note that the canticle Shroudpsalm will effect the dominus, and then transfer to his entire unit, no matter was the unit is because stealth and shrouded rules transfer "if at least one model in the unit has shrouded...".

[Master Avoghai]

I'm wondering...

 

Is this formation useful other than as allies for an IoM army or as a 500pts starting force?

 

I mean I've made such list

 

 

 

Dominus Maniple

 

Tech-Priest Dominus : 125 pts

- Digital Weapons , Conversion Field , phosphor serpenta

 

 

Skitarii Vanguard (10) : 190 pts

- 3 plasma calivers

 

Onager Dunecrawlers : 140 pts

- Icarus matrix, smoke, céphaloscan probe

Skitarii Maniple

 

TROOPS

Skitarii Vanguard (5) : 85 pts

- 2 arc rifles

 

Skitarii Vanguard (5) : 85 pts

- 2 arc rifles

 

 

ELITE

Sicarian Infiltrators (5) : 195 pts

- flechettes blasters and taser goads, princeps with digital weapons

 

Sicarian Infiltrators (5) : 195 pts

- flechettes blasters and taser goads, princeps with digital weapons

 

 

HEAVY SUPPORT

Onager Dunecrawlers (2) : 190 pts

- Cephaloscan probe x2

Adeptus Mechanicus : Cult Mechanicus - Elimination Maniples

 

TROOPS

Kataphron Destroyers (3) : 165 pts

- 3 Heavy grav cannons

 

Kataphron Destroyers (3) : 165 pts

- 3 heavy grav cannons

 

 

HEAVY SUPPORT

Kastelan Robot Maniple : 315 pts

- Cybernetica Datasmith : Conversion field

- 2 Kastelan Robot : 2 xtwin linked heavy phosphor blasters

So the question is : should I spare the different units in the other formation (vanguards and onager aegis in the battle maniple and dominus in an ad mech formation), or is this playable this way?

[mmimzie]

If I remember icarus onagers can't get smoke.

 

3plasma on a unit of vanguard just makes them targets. Even more hopelessly so because that formation doesn't scout.

 

Phospher serpinta isn't worth it on the domi.

 

I'd take just the battle congregation and the skitarii maniple

 

If you want to use the formation. It's either a really cheap way to get an extra dominus or a way to ally in some anti air.

 

Other than that looks like a nice list. I just think the formation vanguard will sorely miss scout

 

Example of extra dominus:

Cad:

2xdominus

2x( 4 plasma destroyers)

 

Battle congregation:

Dominus

2x(grav destroyers)

 

Dominus maniple: (edit:on second though; I'd probably make the vanguard a min squad and just take the default set up for the crawler)

Dominus

10 vanguard (vanilla)

Dunecrawler (neutron/heavy stunned + heavy stunned)

 

That about 1500/1600 nice 4 tough dominus in units of kataphrons. Dunecrawler could bring anti air or the kataphrons could be given cognis.

[CommodusXIII]

If I remember icarus onagers can't get smoke.

 

That's correct - it's called out specifically in the Codex.

[Master Avoghai]

If I remember icarus onagers can't get smoke.

My bad, I don't know why my army builder proposed the option

 

3plasma on a unit of vanguard just makes them targets. Even more hopelessly so because that formation doesn't scout.

Fact is I think that the dominus maniple is the only way to shoot safely with plasma calivers. 3 shots per models screams for overheat each turn. Since dominus allows for a re roll, it divides the risk by 6.

 

Seems to mean to me that the only way to go for vanguard then is arc rifles

 

 

Phospher serpinta isn't worth it on the domi

I don't get why. Sure the cognis is nice but the unit doesn't profit from it. On the opposite, if my dominus wounds with the phospho weapon, then the vanguards may profit from the -1 cover save on the target.

 

I'd take just the battle congregation and the skitarii maniple

If you want to use the formation. It's either a really cheap way to get an extra dominus or a way to ally in some anti air.

Other than that looks like a nice list. I just think the formation vanguard will sorely miss scout

.

Well actually this is what I was wondering. If I plan to get more guards and onagers then the dedicated skitarii and cult mechanicus detachment should be better. Indeed the only point I see to use the dominus maniple in pure admech army, is if I play a CAD of cult mechanicus with 2 dominus and that I'd need a 3rd one with AA support. Then, the "vanguard tax" wouldn't be that expensive since I can play only 5.

[mmimzie]

For the plasma: plasma is only really slightly better than the same point investment in rad carbine. Mainly because cver saves exist. This is including the slim chance of phospher or omnispex. Not to mention you get more than twice the wounds if you have 22 vanguard vs 10vanguard w/3 plasma. I mathed this out some where before.

 

Now even if you still want to use it the reroll on the dominus maniple isn't worth it. First you get to reroll 2 turns worth of 1s via tactical doctrine, which means you get about 3 turns of plasma shooting, and if your opponent lets your vanguard live longer than that, it's GG. Second you give up scout meaning the plasma will not be in range of stationary targets turn 1.

 

Phospher serpinta: dominus usually gives up his pistol attack to heal help wounds. If something has a cover save worth stripping odds are your serpinta will fail to reduce it most of the time. Also this suffers from the same range issue as none scouting vanguard.

[CommodusXIII]

I find that the plasma caliver is useful due to its versatility.  It's effective against heavy infantry, bikes, MCs and medium vehicles.   It synergizes very well with the rad carbine, as does the arc rifle.  The carbine can put out a large volume of wounds on infantry, the caliver/rifle can reliably crack heavier units and vehicles.  The choice between plasma and arc mostly comes down to meta.

 

As for the DM formation ability vs. Doctrinas, one benefit of the re-roll with the formation is that you don't need to sacrifice your WS to mitigate Gets Hot! in close quarters.  It also boosts Snap Shots, allowing for greater application of those S7AP2 shots against Flyers and in Overwatch, if need be.  Flyers aren't all that common in my meta, so I'm not going to dedicate the Onager to AA defense with the Icarus Array.  Re-rollable plasma snap shots is a good fallback plan in case one shows up.

[mmimzie]

I think vehicles is the real upside as vanilla vanguard can't touch that, but 2 units of vanguard will kill a blood thirsted just as easily as 1 unit with 3 plasma. Do twice the wounds with plasma against a riptide, but that's assuming it's big toe isn't in cover.

 

I'm bias against most upgrades though as it cuts into your wound count. If your army has twice as many wounds with out the plasma, than you have that many more dudes alive to shoot when it's your turn.

[CommodusXIII]

Again, that really depends on your meta.  Having twice the dudes doesn't help when their weapons can't harm the enemy.

[MajorNese]

It also boosts Snap Shots, allowing for greater application of those S7AP2 shots against Flyers and in Overwatch, if need be.  Flyers aren't all that common in my meta, so I'm not going to dedicate the Onager to AA defense with the Icarus Array.  Re-rollable plasma snap shots is a good fallback plan in case one shows up.

...and snap shots can be boosted with a relic (rainments of the technomartyr), so that's a rerollable 5+ (roughly 55% hit chance). Add 3 arcs, get into rapid firing range, and go kill some flyers. Or stick to the plasma, the versatility is just worth it for one or two calivers. Bare vanguard can neither kill 2+ multiwound chars reliably, nor scratch vehicles.

[mmimzie]

Think a decent few things are being over looked. First I agree arcs in this formation work quite well nice longer range, and a solid purpose.

 

Plasma I don't think works out at all. You don't have scout so unless your up against some one inching to get in your face you'll have zero shot. Even worse if you have first turn. Also I'd like to assume we've all played skitarii, and we all know full well that any vanguard unit your enemy wants to kill is as good as dead unless it's out of sight.

 

I think if you really want plasma its best being a 1 of in multiple units. That said, if I'm playing skits and I want some ap1 I'd bring a neutron crawler and instant death most folks. As far as this formation I wouldn't bring plasma because you'll miss out on your first turn of shooting most times.

[CommodusXIII]

Plasma calivers don't require Scout to be effective. I use Scout more for redeployment within my zone rather than a free run towards the enemy.

 

Also, Vanguard aren't as paper-thin as you alude. A 4+ save isn't fantastic, but it's not worthless. Don't play them like Marines and they won't die like Guardsmen.

[mmimzie]

Plasma calivers don't require Scout to be effective. I use Scout more for redeployment within my zone rather than a free run towards the enemy.

Also, Vanguard aren't as paper-thin as you alude. A 4+ save isn't fantastic, but it's not worthless. Don't play them like Marines and they won't die like Guardsmen.

actually its interesting you say guard and marines. With upgrades vanguards can cost just about as much as a unit of marines who are upgraded with grav, but no upgrades they are dirt cheap. Just wanted to pointt that out, and don't have much of a point.

 

The point i do have is that your plasma/rad has an 18" range. To play them right you want to deploy in cover, and move to other spots with cover. lets say you get first turn; if you don't scout and you either started in cover or want to move to a spot in cover you have to roll a 6 on your move through cover just to get your forward most dude in range to hit anything. With scout, you get that gap closed garenteed and can use it to move into cover with no penalty. Then you can roll your movemevt to get a little closer and get more model in range.

 

Against long range shooty armies like guard, eldar, tau even going second could leave you with little to no target if you don't have access to scout. Basicly give your enemy 2 turns to help you put your models away. On top of thiss your spend 190 points on plasma to have it start the game out of range..... out side of melee armies almost all armies can devour your plasma turn 1 if they know enough to remove it from the board.

 

I just don't think it's worth it when you could take our other low Ap stuff like neutron lasers, and let the vanguards do what they do best. Which is bring down the rad, and maybe a few arc rifles.

[CommodusXIII]

In summary, it's a good thing that the Vanguard are a modular-enough unit to allow for multiple playstyles.

[mmimzie]

Very true :p

 

Anywho plasma is a okay choice and you might need to take it if your mono skit, but my plasma concerns came up in response to the list that was posted where he also had neutron lasers and kataphrons. In my opinion both do that job better.

[DeStinyFiSh]

I made very good experience with a Dominus attached to a full Plasma Squad in cover. 4+ save (3+ with shroud psalm) and a 2+ FnP character out front makes it hard to kill, and when you have a nice position to cover a good 18" radius on the table you can realy scare the oponent to stay away or to focus everything on that unit to bring it down. (Beer and Pretzel gamer by the way, I am sure a lot of people would laugh at something like that)

 

I also liked my 5 man squads with 1 Plasma each. Not to expensive, but they have been good at melting Marines.

 

When you look at the best value for the lowest price, plasma might not be the best option. But I would be bored to field only naked Vanguard or Arc Rifles...

[Terminus]

One plasma for small squads isn't too bad. Don't even really need the omnispex.

[Chaeron]

Think a decent few things are being over looked. First I agree arcs in this formation work quite well nice longer range, and a solid purpose.

 

Plasma I don't think works out at all. You don't have scout so unless your up against some one inching to get in your face you'll have zero shot. Even worse if you have first turn. Also I'd like to assume we've all played skitarii, and we all know full well that any vanguard unit your enemy wants to kill is as good as dead unless it's out of sight.

 

I think if you really want plasma its best being a 1 of in multiple units. That said, if I'm playing skits and I want some ap1 I'd bring a neutron crawler and instant death most folks. As far as this formation I wouldn't bring plasma because you'll miss out on your first turn of shooting most times.

 

I was tempted to go for three Arc rifles in nearly all units - whether within the context of the Maniple or not, just because of their anti-armour and personnel capability, which the Rad Carbines support effectively. 

 

As CommodusXIII alludes to, it is somewhat meta dependent - but I think I'd probably want to stick with one or the other, and then load up accordingly!

[mmimzie]

I made very good experience with a Dominus attached to a full Plasma Squad in cover. 4+ save (3+ with shroud psalm) and a 2+ FnP character out front makes it hard to kill, and when you have a nice position to cover a good 18" radius on the table you can realy scare the oponent to stay away or to focus everything on that unit to bring it down. (Beer and Pretzel gamer by the way, I am sure a lot of people would laugh at something like that)

 

I also liked my 5 man squads with 1 Plasma each. Not to expensive, but they have been good at melting Marines.

 

When you look at the best value for the lowest price, plasma might not be the best option. But I would be bored to field only naked Vanguard or Arc Rifles...

Plasma in war convocation is totally different as it's the go to pick. You don't need anti armor because you have other stuff for that, and thus the free plasma is really good. Plus you'd still have scout.

 

I also agree that it is meta dependent, but look at it this way MEQs are about even when you compare 3 plasmas to the equal amount of points in vanguard. Now against something with a 2+ save then yes plasma is better, but if the thing also has FNP/Invuln/ cover than we are back to just breaking even. Thus, I think having more than 2x the wounds and same fire power seems better than guns then gun that might kill yourself fewer wounds, and very similar damage.

[Terminus]

Gets hot is pretty much a non-issue though.

[Master Avoghai]

Btw, I'm screening all the topic dealing with the onager now and i cannot find the reference concerning the free hevy stubber : it's not on the entry, it's not on the arsenal however my army builder says I can get 3 cognis stubber on the same vehicle : one with the laser, one for 5 pts as a vehicle upgrade and one free as a vehicle upgrade too...

 

:unsure:

[mmimzie]

Army builder or what ever app you use should never be among your trusted sources. Onagers can only get up to 2 stunners and that's with the laser + vehicle upgrade.

[Master Avoghai]

Normally yes, I consider this feature as a bug but recently, I've read pn a topic thatthere was EFFECTIVELY a way to get an additionnal cognis stubber on an onager but I cannot remember the post :rolleyes:

[CommodusXIII]

There really isn't.