[HH1.0] Black Shields Tactica

[Tyberos the Red Wake]

What makes you say a Legion Praetor Tribune is not a Legion Praetor?

 

Although RAW you are correct, Black Shields cannot take a model with the statline of "Legion Praetor" and the statline of the Tribune is "Praetor Tribune", I'm pretty sure RAI the Tribune is a type of Praetor. It's the same way Imperial Space Marine cannot replace any Space Marines except for the models with statline "Space Marine" found in Assault, Tactical, and Devastator squads even though Sergeants and Veterans are all technically Space Marines.

Edited July 2, 2016 by Tyberos the Red Wake

[Brother Aiwass]

Sorry mate, I guessed that when I stated "technically". RAW vs RAI is always a swampy terrain. I was assuming RAW in this case.

 

Cheers!

[Charlo]

Well RaW it's an entirely different choice.

 

Would be available for blsckshields until they FAQ it IMO.

[Hellrender]

Now that we have had some time to play with blackshields, what do people think on marauder squads? What have your most succesful load outs been? etc

[Grim Dog Studios]

Just a quick question. Are blackshields worth taking as allies at all? I want to build up a small force of them, around 1000 points, just to break up the painting of blue with my ultras. However, they don't seem to be all that "ally-able". Theres quite a few rules restricting how they themselves take allies, and they are also By The Emperor's/Warmaster's Command on the Allies chart. 

If they are feasible allies, what sort of 1000 point list would you recommend building?

[Tyberos the Red Wake]

Just a quick question. Are blackshields worth taking as allies at all? I want to build up a small force of them, around 1000 points, just to break up the painting of blue with my ultras. However, they don't seem to be all that "ally-able". Theres quite a few rules restricting how they themselves take allies, and they are also By The Emperor's/Warmaster's Command on the Allies chart. 

If they are feasible allies, what sort of 1000 point list would you recommend building?

 

Since you're playing a marine army, I'd recommend taking Chymeriae and operating separately from your main force. They offer the strongest small unit bonuses among the Blackshield rites and conveniently are able to be allies although they themselves cannot take allies. Deathseekers can also work as a sturdy reliable unit. I'd say Orphans of War would be the best as they can go character hunting solo but they can't ally with marines.

Edited July 4, 2016 by Tyberos the Red Wake

[Brother Aiwass]

More questions and doubts.

 

Can blackshields ally with themselves (Orphans of War & Outlanders for instance)?

[Charlo]

More questions and doubts.

 

Can blackshields ally with themselves (Orphans of War & Outlanders for instance)?

 

I believe not, as you would still have two Detachments with the same LA rule (in this can Black Shields), which is not allowed.

[Flint13]

^I am more than moderately confident that this is both the theoretical and the practical. 

[Charlo]

So in Outlanders half of your infantry without a DT get to deep strike, so I suppose there is a balancing act of having half of your infantry either back line or footslog it, while the juicy stuff leads in with mad teleporting.

 

Of course this can be circumvented a little with non-dedicated transports like Fast Claws, LR Squadrons and such.

 

But what about taking some small, cheap squads to stay back anyway?

 

140 points gets you 5 Marauders with an Autocannon. Could certainly do worse when having a little unit to stay back and hold the fort. 215 if you want to bump it up to ten man with two Autocannons.

Edited July 5, 2016 by Charlo

[CaptainHelion]

Marauders are troops, too, and so can score. Small, cheap squads to sit on backfield objectives isn't a bad plan at all.

[Tyberos the Red Wake]

 

More questions and doubts.

 

Can blackshields ally with themselves (Orphans of War & Outlanders for instance)?

 

I believe not, as you would still have two Detachments with the same LA rule (in this can Black Shields), which is not allowed.

 

 

It's this. The different Blackshield styles are just Rites of War, so it'd be like a legion trying to ally itself with a different Rite.

[Khornestar]

Can you take Blackshields in an Army of Dark Compliance list? RAW.

[Plaguecaster]

Can you take Blackshields in an Army of Dark Compliance list? RAW.

From what I read I believe so since they are still part of the legion astartes army list and there is nothing calling out black shields or shattered legions for that matter apart from it saying a dark compliance army is the ideal rival for them . The only restriction is you have to take a centurion/ consul (so probably won't be able to include a reaver lord well not as your warlord ) and no rite of wars but I believe the black shields wrought by war rules are fine since they are not a rite of war (though they still won't affect any militia units) Hey that's actually a cool idea :D have chymeriae with +1 T and S maybe terminators or something for extra surviablility with lots of cannon fodder militia (I just don't think it will work on battle scribe as I can't even find the dark compliance option to start with) Edited July 6, 2016 by teutonicavenger

[Khornestar]

Ooh, neato! I've been trying to figure out what to do with the 40 BaC marines I just bought for an Army of Dark Compliance, and I've "narrowed" it down to Word Bearers, Alpha Legion, and now Blackshields. 

 

Oy. At least if I use Blackshields I can use my custom-made decals that would otherwise probably never get used.

Edited July 6, 2016 by Venomlust

[Charlo]

HMMMMM...

 

My only gripe would be that it's pretty gamey, but I suppose having a Militia Army under your stead would be pretty Black-shieldy!

[Khornestar]

They're all renegades and outcasts, of sorts. No reason they couldn't take up for the for the Warmaster for one reason or another. I only wonder if the army would be any good. I face brutal Iron Warriors and Mechanicum lists, and I just can't think of a way to build a worthwhile 30k list with what I've got.

[Slips]

What have you got and what do you face?

[Khornestar]

I've got:

 

40 BaC marines + ~50 CSM that I could proxy just fine as more

150+ cultists/levy men

~20 traitor guardsmen

1 Fire Raptor

1 Kharybdis

3 Leman Russ tanks

Juggernauts I can use as mutant spawn

A mutated but still useable contemptor, has 2 DCCW but can be proxies for whatever loadout

Can build any militia/power armored HQ with the bits I have

3 rhinos

1 land raider

9 rapier laser destroyer carriages

4 medusas (not 30k, but good enough to use)

And I also have some daemons of Khorne to use as an allied detachment with the proper upgrades from the militia/cults army.

 

I face a brutal IW list with about 40 marines, 10 siege tyrants with attached HQs that allow them interceptor and prevent infiltration nearby and ALSO let them reroll 1's and split fire (I think). 2 deredeos, a Sicaran, 2 contemptors, a podding Leviathan, and 10 or so volkite marines, plus 3 medusas and 3 quad launchers. With the models I have, I just can't see a way to win against this army, no matter what legion I use in the AoDC. I usually use my KDK/renegades and do decent, but can only really win with objectives and not kill points. I'll admit I don't have a clue when it comes to 30k, though.

 

The Mechanicum is full of super tough robots, of almost all varieties. Short of my D-thirster, I can't do a whole lot to kill them in close combat. I can't outshoot 'em, and they reduce my cover saves. I have beaten the list with objectives, though.

[Slips]

The only unit(s) that I know of in 30k that have Split Fire are the Tyrants (sergeant) and possibly the Fulmentarus Terminators. At best, those were Augury Scanners (Denies Infiltrate within 18" and gives interceptor to deepstrikers arriving in the bubble). The re-rolling 1's, nothing springs to mind that would give them that unless it was Libby Buffs.

 

I have literally no idea how he fit so much Heavy Support in thogh since he has a max of 4 Slot with Hammer of Olympia and mixing that with the Onslaught Detachment (which has 4 HS Slots) would be literally illegal in the game system:

• 1 Deredeo
• 1 Deredeo
• 1 Leviathan
• 1 Sicaran
• 3 Medusas
• 10x Volkite Culverins (if those were the ones he took) If they were Calivers or Chargers they'd be troops.
• 10x Iron Tyrants. (Recent change per the newest Legions of the Age of Darkness book)

So, for one, if he's playing with all of these in a single game against you, its 100% and illegal list since thats (6)7 Heavy Support Slots and you can't Self-Ally with the same Legion and even then an Allied Detachment would only give you +1HS Slot.

 

Cybernetica Mechanicum will ALWAYS be a tough challenge for Legion Armies but you do have the tools to deal with them.

 

++++

 

Here's a theoretical something that you could slap together:

+++ Blackshields (3000pts) +++

 

++ Legiones Astartes: Crusade Army List (Age of Darkness) (3000pts) ++

 

+ HQ (375pts) +

 

Blackshield Reaver Lord (250pts) [Artificer Armour, Cyber-familiar, Digital Lasers, Halo Blade, Iron Halo, Power Fist, Rad Grenades]

 

Legion Centurion (125pts) [Artificer Armour, Boarding Shield, Power Fist]

··Consul [Primus Medicae]

 

+ Troops (590pts) +

 

Blackshield Marauder Squad (294pts) [6x Bolter, Legion Rhino Armoured Carrier, 9x Marauders, Nuncio-vox, 2x Plasma Gun]

··Marauder Chief [bolter, Melta Bombs, Power Fist]

 

Blackshield Marauder Squad (296pts) [7x Bolter, Legion Rhino Armoured Carrier, 9x Marauders, Nuncio-vox, 2x Plasma Gun]

··Marauder Chief [bolter, Melta Bombs, Power Fist]

 

+ Elites (1100pts) +

 

Legion Rapier Weapons Battery (165pts)

··Legion Rapier Weapons Battery [Laser Destroyer Array]

··Legion Rapier Weapons Battery [Laser Destroyer Array]

··Legion Rapier Weapons Battery [Laser Destroyer Array]

 

Legion Terminator Squad (315pts) [Cataphractii Terminator Armour with Combi-bolter and Power Weapon, 2x Chainfist, 7x Legion Terminators, 5x Power Fist]

··Legion Terminator Sergeant [Power Fist]

 

Legion Veteran Tactical Squad (310pts) [2x Heavy Bolter and Suspensor Web, Legion Rhino Armoured Carrier, 9x Legion Veteran Space Marines, Legion Vexilla, Sniper]

··Legion Veteran Sergeant [Artificer Armour, Power Fist]

 

Legion Veteran Tactical Squad (310pts) [2x Heavy Bolter and Suspensor Web, Legion Rhino Armoured Carrier, 9x Legion Veteran Space Marines, Legion Vexilla, Sniper]

··Legion Veteran Sergeant [Artificer Armour, Power Fist]

 

+ Heavy Support (935pts) +

 

Legion Artillery Tank Squadron (465pts) [Legion Medusa, Legion Medusa, Legion Medusa]

 

Legion Fire Raptor Gunship (210pts) [Reaper Autocannon battery]

 

Legion Kharybdis Assault Claw (260pts)

 

+ Legion +

 

Legion Astartes [blackshields]

··Chymeriae [Option 1: Gene-bulked]

 

Created with BattleScribe

 

The Chymeriae option is totally up to you. If you feel like risking it, you could swap out the Cataphractii on the Termies to Tartaros to permit sweeping advances and to change the Option to either Lone Wolves (+1BS/WS, -2LD) or Berserkers (Fear, Rage, Fleet, -1BS Must always sweep).

 

The Vets are flexible and can be tooled up to take full advantage of any option you take Cymeriae or otherwise. As is, if you made them Furious Charge vets in an Assault Transport, with Gene-Bulked, you'd have S8 Power Mauls and S7 Power Axes on the Charge.

 

If you take Lone Wolves, swap the Primus out for a Chaplain. Doing so gives him a 2nd Free Power Weapon (as per Chaplains) while also making the Reaver Lords squad Fearless thus, until he dies, immune to the harsh -2LD penalty.

 

Reaver Lord: Why all the bling? As it stands, if he goes up against 3+ Saves, he's swinging with an S8 AP3 I4 Weapon (using Gene-Bulked) meaning you're chewing through them and they don't get an FNP save. It also makes him a veeeeery nasty threat for 3+ or Worse Mechanicum Beasties to deal with and if they have a 2+ (Stompy Robbit or otherwise), he's got an S9 Power Fist while also having Rad Nades to lower their Toughness by -1. At T5, the Primus will also be giving them FNP against anything thats under S10 and since you can't sweep with Gene-Bulked, you benefit by having tougher terminators since Tartaros would be a pointless suit to take due to losing the main benefit. Between the Halo Blade, Fists and Rad Grenades, you are instant deathing anything T5 or lower such as Thallax and Ursurax while making it easier to hurt the tougher ones.

 

He also has a 2+/3++ thanks to the Cyber Familiar and with FNP, he's going to be hard to kill.

 

Speakin of S9 Power Fists, every Fist you see in the list will be hitting at that Strength so you can even punch Av Values decently if required.

 

You've got Medusa's for S10 Pieplates and the Kharybdis to get the Termie + Chappy + Lord combo downfield ASAP. The Fire Raptor helps you mow down more bodies.

 

Between the Medusa's and Las Rapiers, most of your anti-tank worries should be ok with. And since the Marauders have Plasma Guns, they still have some teeth on them.

 

I tried to stick as closely as I could to the models you listed so the only outlier there are the Terminators.

 

The list is pretty flexible and you should be ok with the Infantry-Vehicle limitations and could swap their Blackshields option on a game-per-game basis without it necessitating too many changes except for the one that doesn't allow Chaplains.

Edited July 7, 2016 by Slipstreams

[Terminus]

You have veterans, they gun down MCs just fine. The IW list sounds 14 kinds of illegal.

 

You actually have quite a nice collection for an Army of Dark Compliance. We could throw you together something nasty. Do you have any terminators or ogryns? That Kharybdis calls for a deathstar.

Edited July 7, 2016 by Terminus

[Khornestar]

 

Many useful things.

 

Wow, I really appreciate the time and effort you went through to make me that list. That was awesome of you. I think that's a great starting point for me. And, since we often play at around 3000 points, it's perfect.

 

As for his list, all I can say is that more or less what I've listed is accurate. We do play with 40k-style CAD restrictions instead of the Age of Darkness stuff; but as you point out, that is still a high number of heavy support slots. Not really sure how it's happening, never questioned it before. It could be 2 CADs, and he actually had 4 units of troops total to allow it. I can only imagine it wasn't intentionally built to be illegal. Neither of us are experts when it comes to the rules, so perhaps it was an innocent enough mistake. Next time I see the list, I'm gonna ask about it though.

 

I'm gonna have to brush up on all the options/rules for the units you listed. I actually really like the idea of using heavy bolters. They're one of my favorite weapons in the setting, but other than the stock guns that come on IG tanks and my Land Raider I've never used them. It seems like suspensor webs are what make them usable? As for the terminators, my preference by FAR would be Tartaros. I think they look so badass. Not a fan of Cataphractii, myself.

 

That Reaver Lord sounds like an absolute beast. My biggest concern is the Siege Tyrant blob. No AP2 to kill any before they strike, and they're S8 at I1. Nasty.

 

Definitely food for thought. Thanks again!

[Slips]

If you want Tartaros, to make the absolute most out of the Suit Allowing Sweeps, go for Lone Wolves & Chaplain or risk slightly worse shooting and got for Berserkers (Or any of the other multitudes of options Blackshields got). Though, if you want to, you can still take them in Gene-Bulked just fine.

 

The reason why Bolter & Heavy Bolter Vets work so well is because of one thing: Sniper. ALWAYS wounding on a 4+ (unless GMC) and 6's being Ap2 makes for pretty potent shooting. Suspensor Webs do go a LOOOOONG way into making weapons with them better since it lets you do two things:

• Fire at Half-Range Assault (x)
• Full Range Heavy (x).

So, for a Heavy Bolter, thats 18" Assault 3 or 36" Heavy 3. Useful for when your squad needs to stay on the move and very good for getting more shots down range when you decide to shoot something with (Sniper) Bolt Pistols before charging.

 

Now, for the Tyrants, its why you have 3 Medusas and 3 Lasrapiers (unless they have better targets). With the Nuncio-Voxes on the Marauder Squads, they can be used to draw LoS for them to reduce scatter while they safely fire out of LoS from the Tyrants 20 Krak Missiles. Even with a 4++, 3 S10 Ap2 5" Templates will leave a dent in the unit.

 

But, remember, if you stick with Gene-Bulked, while the Tyrants do have S8 Power Fists at I1, you'd be T5 meaning you'd still have the Primus' FNP. Conversely, you're hitting back with S9 Power Fists. While they still wound on 2+, they certainly won't be getting an FNP save if they have it available. Its also why I decided to give the Marauder Squads Plasma Guns so that they can take Potshots out the top of their Rhino's where possible and the Tac Vets, should they have no better target, can also potentially deal some damage. And with precision shots, you could possible Snipe their Sergeant out of the unit thus negating their Splitfire Benefits or some other such shenanigans.

 

If you guys are using 40k-Style Double-CAD that might explain how he got so many HS Slots since that'd be a total of 6 Slots and the Tyrants might've been in Elites if he doesn't have the newest Legion-Specific Red Book.

 

But yeah, the Reaver Lord should be nice and Sturdy. The Cyber Familiar also lets him re-roll failed Characteristic Tests (Strength Tests from 30k Grav, Toughness, Initiative from Blind, etc.) so thats a nice fringe benefit.

Edited July 7, 2016 by Slipstreams

[Khornestar]

Need to get me some terminators! Maybe next month, as I blew my hobby budget on all those BaC marines. Sorta facepalming over those, but I know I won't regret the purchase in the long run. I think the power armored praetor could make a sweet Reaver Lord, too.

Edited July 7, 2016 by Venomlust

[Slips]

If/when you do get to nab some tartaros termies make sure you're 100% ABSOLUTELY CERTAIN that you buy the right ones. Don't make my mistake and end up with the Crux Terminatus on them D: