Carcharodons novel by Robbie McNiven

[RobMac]

It'd be really nice if you could stop being a wind up merchant and engage us in half decent conversation. Please.

I thought I was being an anti wind up merchant (a closer of the wind up stalls in Rumour Market I guess?) by stating beforehand that the book won't provide answers. I'm simply not allowed to talk about the origins. It's hard for me too, given just how many theories there are floating about. 

 

 

The point is not in brutality. People love Space Sharks not only because of that.

Sharks are mystical, they are traditionalists, 'monsters' from the utter  Dark, has splendid past, amazing heraldy and librarians circle etc. etc.

For a throwaway comment this is actually very accurate. Having the designer's notes from the guy who "created" the modern Chapter (well, rebooted them as the Carcharodons in the IA volumes) these are pretty much all their key points. Ultimately they're mythical, mystical monsters, and their existence is in defiance of all odds and expectations. 

 

I prefer the Minotaurs as they are more brutal.

Get outta here 

Edited December 22, 2016 by RobMac

[helterskelter]

Robmac I was talking to Heritora, sorry I didnt use quotes. Don't like the walls of text that swiftly amount.

 

P.s. I'm loving the are they/aren't they moments

Edited December 22, 2016 by helterskelter

[Jarl Kjaran Coldheart]

 

 

 

I definitely don't like the name "Space Sharks"

I prefer the name Charcaradons as it sounds much more mature.

And hard to spell

So is Vlka Fenryka but I still prefer it to Space Wolves

Puppies sounds even better

Not only does it not sound better, it's also no longer going to be tolerated.

 

Please avoid any further comments that can be seen as derailing a conversation or derogatory.

 

thank you,

 

Wolf Lord Kieran

Edited December 23, 2016 by Wolf Lord Kieran

[caladancid]

Is there any canon that states they are definitely from the raven guard? They feel more like world eaters without the nails implanted.

 

No, nothing definitive. I am just not aware of other geneseed that makes the eyes all black.

[helterskelter]

 

 

Is there any canon that states they are definitely from the raven guard? They feel more like world eaters without the nails implanted.

No, nothing definitive. I am just not aware of other geneseed that makes the eyes all black.

From lexicanum so add salt as required:

Curze's genetic legacy does have particular effects on those so altered. Firstly, all Night Lords sport jet black eyes and very pale skin (although quite how much of this comes from geneseed and how much from having a Nostraman background in those Night Lords from the doomed night-planet is unclear).

 

Also various places describe various levels of eye blackness. The now defunct index astartes article had a bare headed marine with all black eyes.

 

And mellow see ref: xarl, uzas, kellenkir/dvar (whichever the angrier one was) ;) :p

Edited December 22, 2016 by helterskelter

[RobMac]

Is there any canon that states they are definitely from the raven guard? They feel more like world eaters without the nails implanted.

The Imperial Armour books list a report from an Inquisitor stating that recovered Carcharodon material had traces of Raven Guard gene seed. A Horus Heresy book also had a picture of a group of Terran Raven Guard who were exiled by Corax and formed a "nomad predation fleet." The Space Marine in the image in question had Maori-esq designs on his armour. This is why the Raven Guard are usually in poll position when it comes to the origins debate.

[caladancid]

 

 

Is there any canon that states they are definitely from the raven guard? They feel more like world eaters without the nails implanted.

No, nothing definitive. I am just not aware of other geneseed that makes the eyes all black.

From lexicanum so add salt as required:

Curze's genetic legacy does have particular effects on those so altered. Firstly, all Night Lords sport jet black eyes and very pale skin (although quite how much of this comes from geneseed and how much from having a Nostraman background in those Night Lords from the doomed night-planet is unclear).

 

Also various places describe various levels of eye blackness. The now defunct index astartes article had a bare headed marine with all black eyes.

 

And mellow see ref: xarl, uzas, kellenkir/dvar (whichever the angrier one was)

 

 

I thought the NL had moved away from that. At least in the HH books from FW, it seems like the eye blackness is more a sign of Raven Guard when they go feral.

[Kelborn]

AND the Carcharpdons have a ship bearing the same name as the flagship of one of the predation fleets, the Nicor.

 

Furthermore, the Terran RG are known to be more aggressive, more bloody and less caring than Corax' RG. That's why they were exiled. Because of their tendencies, they were at good terms with the Lunar Wolves. This relation led to the impression that the Terran RG were more a part of the XVIth Legion before Corax was discovered.

 

All these little facts led to the assumption that the Carcharodons are descendants of the so called Pale Nomads.

[Mellow]

Wasn't the Pale Nomad the name of one of the characters though?

[Conn Eremon]

Wasn't the Pale Nomad the name of one of the characters though?

In the same sense that one of the World Eater Dreadnoughts is sometimes called the War Hound.

 

The Pale Nomads was one of the unofficial names for the pre-Corax XIX Legion, and the particular Nomad-Predation Fleet in question has the strongest link to that older identity than virtually any other XIX Legion force.

 

Indeed, this and a lot of other references all tie the Carcharadons to that particular 30k force, though the nature of that connection is still greatly obscured and might not mean the obvious. The Nicor reference, for example, does not necessarily mean that its current owners inherited it naturally from its original owners. We know its origin, and we know its current whereabouts, but we only have guesses as to the path between those points.

[RobMac]

Conn is wise to urge caution, I'll repeat the only advice I've given since the start - things aren't always as simple or clear as they first appear. 

[DarkChaplain]

One of those days I'll have to pick up those pesky Imperial Armour and Horus Heresy FW books, don't I? So much meat that never trickles into the novels...

 

Robbie, do you have real, tangible and specific answers from the IP overlords as to their origins, or are things kept vague on the editorial level as well? Did they give you a proper brief of who they are, where they come from, why they're the way they are and so on, or just point you towards the relevant FW resources and let you have a field day with your own interpretations?

Any editorial limits that you weren't allowed to cross?

[Kelborn]

Conn is wise to urge caution, I'll repeat the only advice I've given since the start - things aren't always as simple or clear as they first appear.

We know that. :)

Just wanted to explain why most people think that they are of RG origin by giving the seemingly "facts" we got by FW.

 

We all know that they are Vlka descendants, painting their sling pale grey and carrying contact lenses, of course. :P

[RobMac]

Robbie, do you have real, tangible and specific answers from the IP overlords as to their origins? Did they give you a proper brief of who they are, where they come from, why they're the way they are and so on, or just point you towards the relevant FW resources and let you have a field day with your own interpretations?

Any editorial limits that you weren't allowed to cross?

Yes, yes, yes and yes to those points. The Carcharodons aren't the Lost Legions - they have a definite origin, and there is actually an answer, as opposed to mystery for mystery's sake. I should stress that fact, because the games I'll be playing in Red Tithe could make it look like I'm just making stuff, and would be especially annoying to those who want a clean, clear origin story. People shouldn't stress too much over the answer at the moment, because even after Red Tithe they just won't have enough info to be able to simply guess the whole thing themselves. 

 

As for editorial limits, not really. I've still added plenty of my "own" lore (fleshing out the Maori/Polynesian theme, ect), so we'll see how it goes down with you folks. 

Edited December 23, 2016 by RobMac

[caladancid]

I don't think it will be annoying in any way, even if it remains unclear. Even if it is the way I imagine it (for example), like some other people have said its been ten THOUSAND years since that point, and I expect significant changes would have happened just for the chapter/demi-Legion/whatever they are to be around. And if it isn't what I think it is, then whatever, I am still excited for some new grimdark Sharks to make their impact known.

[Paradigm]

 

There isn't.

 

Also I know of only one other group of marines that say "we come for you" or robmac is being a cheeky devil and trolling us all

 

I was mixing up the expedition on Tenebor, with the expedition into the Shroud of Eventide. Tenebor is where they find the dead Praetor, however it isn't Ophion. Don't know where the hanging body came from. Oh well.

 

However they do explicitly state that Kalleth was Ophion's last victory, and his last data entry is that he fears if he doesn't survive the coming crash, the fleet will scatter. Which from all accounts it did. It isn't certain that he died in the crash but it is highly likely that he did.

 

 

Is there any canon that states they are definitely from the raven guard? They feel more like world eaters without the nails implanted.

The Badab War IA books say they bear Raven Guard genetic markers. They've done everything but actually print "Raven Guard Successors" at this point. Since they really predate the Raven Guard, as the Pale Nomads chapter was a Terran one, it isn't likely they ever will. (As they aren't really successors, but sort of share ancestry with the Raven Guard.)

 

Keep in mind at the same time Corax exiled the Terrans, Horus and Perterabo sent their own Nomad Predation fleets into the Ghoul Stars as well. Though there isn't any real fluff about them besides a few lines in HH:Retribution on page 138.

 

Edit:

 

Somehow the whole last page didn't load for me, or I overlooked it. 

 

@Conn I'm pretty sure the Pale Nomads was a single chapter of the XIXth (whose flagship I'm pretty sure was the Nicor), just like the Ashen Claws were just a single Chapter. I'd have to re-read HH:3 to double check the Pale Nomad bits, (as above after a few months things blur a bit sometimes). Both chapters along with a third mostly Terran chapter (as yet unnamed) having been sent off in Nomad Predation fleets post Akum-Sotha, along with those sent by Horus and Perterabo. Although we have no idea if they stuck together or spread out or were destroyed or anything else.  Again, I could be mixing something up about the Pale Nomads, but I'm 90% sure they are just one chapter of XIXth Legion Marines.

 

@RobMac I'm really excited for this novel, I've been waiting for a strong Carcharadons revisit since the IA Badab books came out. I am curious though, if the origins of the chapter are even known to the members at this point. I'm also excited for any plot twists and turns. It really is one of my favorite parts about the background.

Edited December 23, 2016 by Fortnight

[Mellow]

 

 

Robbie, do you have real, tangible and specific answers from the IP overlords as to their origins? Did they give you a proper brief of who they are, where they come from, why they're the way they are and so on, or just point you towards the relevant FW resources and let you have a field day with your own interpretations?

Any editorial limits that you weren't allowed to cross?

Yes, yes, yes and yes to those points. The Carcharodons aren't the Lost Legions - they have a definite origin, and there is actually an answer, as opposed to mystery for mystery's sake. I should stress that fact, because the games I'll be playing in Red Tithe could make it look like I'm just making stuff, and would be especially annoying to those who want a clean, clear origin story. People shouldn't stress too much over the answer at the moment, because even after Red Tithe they just won't have enough info to be able to simply guess the whole thing themselves.

 

As for editorial limits, not really. I've still added plenty of my "own" lore (fleshing out the Maori/Polynesian theme, ect), so we'll see how it goes down with you folks.

Oh good. I'm glad they actually have something definite instead of saying "write this, it doesn't mean anything" and then giggling like school girls.

[Conn Eremon]

Finally got around to reading the excerpt for the new novel, it does make me interested for more. I do like the idea of a war with the Tyranids out among the starless void.

 

@Conn I'm pretty sure the Pale Nomads was a single chapter of the XIXth (whose flagship I'm pretty sure was the Nicor), just like the Ashen Claws were just a single Chapter. I'd have to re-read HH:3 to double check the Pale Nomad bits, (as above after a few months things blur a bit sometimes). Both chapters along with a third mostly Terran chapter (as yet unnamed) having been sent off in Nomad Predation fleets post Akum-Sotha, along with those sent by Horus and Perterabo. Although we have no idea if they stuck together or spread out or were destroyed or anything else. Again, I could be mixing something up about the Pale Nomads, but I'm 90% sure they are just one chapter of XIXth Legion Marines.

Pages 130 & 132 of Extinction make it clear that Pale Nomads was one of the Luna Wolves' nickname for the XIXth Legion as a whole.

 

You're thinking of the Ashen Claws, I assume, which are featured in The Scouring of the Nostramo Sector section of Retribution.

[HeritorA]

 

Is there any canon that states they are definitely from the raven guard? They feel more like world eaters without the nails implanted.

 

No, nothing definitive. I am just not aware of other geneseed that makes the eyes all black.

 

I think, in my humble opinion, that Forge World team created a stepping stone for that in their HH book 'Retribution' with razing of Nostramo system and terror from the Dark.

 

 

Wasn't the Pale Nomad the name of one of the characters though?

In the same sense that one of the World Eater Dreadnoughts is sometimes called the War Hound.

 

The Pale Nomads was one of the unofficial names for the pre-Corax XIX Legion, and the particular Nomad-Predation Fleet in question has the strongest link to that older identity than virtually any other XIX Legion force.

 

Indeed, this and a lot of other references all tie the Carcharadons to that particular 30k force, though the nature of that connection is still greatly obscured and might not mean the obvious. The Nicor reference, for example, does not necessarily mean that its current owners inherited it naturally from its original owners. We know its origin, and we know its current whereabouts, but we only have guesses as to the path between those points.

 

True. Which profoudnly was created from the terrans in the Legion.

 

 

Robbie, do you have real, tangible and specific answers from the IP overlords as to their origins? Did they give you a proper brief of who they are, where they come from, why they're the way they are and so on, or just point you towards the relevant FW resources and let you have a field day with your own interpretations?

Any editorial limits that you weren't allowed to cross?

Yes, yes, yes and yes to those points. The Carcharodons aren't the Lost Legions - they have a definite origin, and there is actually an answer, as opposed to mystery for mystery's sake. I should stress that fact, because the games I'll be playing in Red Tithe could make it look like I'm just making stuff, and would be especially annoying to those who want a clean, clear origin story. People shouldn't stress too much over the answer at the moment, because even after Red Tithe they just won't have enough info to be able to simply guess the whole thing themselves. 

 

As for editorial limits, not really. I've still added plenty of my "own" lore (fleshing out the Maori/Polynesian theme, ect), so we'll see how it goes down with you folks. 

 

Sound merrier with each post

[GAZ_AV_NZ]

I dont normally buy books from BL anymore

But im making an exception with this series

Loved the short story Rob

Cant wait for the books

 

Im from NZ so im interested to see how you use the Maori / Pacific island themes

Currently also painting up a Carcaradons army with airbrush and my own stencils

Has been tricky making them but trying to anticipate the weapons they use

Chainaxes are a given ;)

 

As to origins ; well just because a trace of RG gene seed was noted

Doesnt mean they are RG

Ill await the books story and what they eventually reveal over a series

[RobMac]

Glad you liked the short (and glad you're coming back to BL too)! I hope I do the Maori/Polynesian elements justice. 

 

Also, merry Christmas everyone! 

[HeritorA]

Glad you liked the short (and glad you're coming back to BL too)! I hope I do the Maori/Polynesian elements justice. 

 

Also, merry Christmas everyone! 

You too, hope you had a good time.

 

 

Anddddd - 'Red tithe' digital premiere is up! And ready for download!

 

I hate yoy Robbie - now I need a time to read it and write another review in 2016!

[RobMac]

First one to read the whole thing gets my adoration 

[HeritorA]

First one to read the whole thing gets my adoration 

Hate ya - I have production deploy for a full week. Let's go with the second or a third ;)

[Kelborn]

Or the 145th? ;)

Have to wait until Amazon gets a download file for it.