Grifftofer Posted April 24, 2016 Share Posted April 24, 2016 How about a compromise? A temporary mind-wipe that exists during their training to ensure that their new loyalty is foremost, but their memories return over time so they still have to deal with things they may have done in the past. It could make for some interesting conflict if current and previous loyalties clash at any point. (Idea taken from one of my favourite books. Admittedly they use magic rather than technology, but in 30K they can be almost interchangeable.) Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/320938-ia-the-nightguard/page/3/#findComment-4374372 Share on other sites More sharing options...
MikhalLeNoir Posted April 24, 2016 Share Posted April 24, 2016 Huh? I thought sigismund made clear that there is no mind wipe but that they have to let their past behind them. Not using warpshenanigans but of their own will. They have to decide. Und suppress their memories. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/320938-ia-the-nightguard/page/3/#findComment-4374374 Share on other sites More sharing options...
bluntblade Posted April 24, 2016 Share Posted April 24, 2016 Well, let's just see how things develop for now. I keep jumping forward to the endgame. I'm not sure how the capacity for suppressing memories would really work, in any case. Or rather, how it would differ from typical Astartes keeping a lid on their emotions. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/320938-ia-the-nightguard/page/3/#findComment-4374375 Share on other sites More sharing options...
MikhalLeNoir Posted April 24, 2016 Share Posted April 24, 2016 Hehe. Thats the spirit. I bet at the endgame all is destroyed;) Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/320938-ia-the-nightguard/page/3/#findComment-4374382 Share on other sites More sharing options...
simison Posted April 24, 2016 Share Posted April 24, 2016 I'm curious, Bluntblade, what were you thinking when the others said 'suppress memories'? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/320938-ia-the-nightguard/page/3/#findComment-4374395 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nomus Sardauk Posted April 24, 2016 Share Posted April 24, 2016 Still....The idea that the Nightguard doesn't require that they cast off all loyalty to their former legion brothers and any grudges they have left over from their time in the legions doesn't feel right. It feels a bit like something which was crowbarred in for plot purposes What? Just because they retain their memories doesn't mean they aren't loyal, remember they're given the choice to join the NG, not forced, they conciously choose to leave their previous Legions and commit themselves to the NG's mission. Just like the Deathwatch they understand they are expected to leave whatever baggage they had behind, the mission comes first, not old grudges and petty rivalries. You're a Nightguard now, your old legion is irrelevant. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/320938-ia-the-nightguard/page/3/#findComment-4374468 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kelborn Posted April 24, 2016 Share Posted April 24, 2016 Still....The idea that the Nightguard doesn't require that they cast off all loyalty to their former legion brothers and any grudges they have left over from their time in the legions doesn't feel right. It feels a bit like something which was crowbarred in for plot purposes What? Just because they retain their memories doesn't mean they aren't loyal, remember they're given the choice to join the NG, not forced, they conciously choose to leave their previous Legions and commit themselves to the NG's mission. Just like the Deathwatch they understand they are expected to leave whatever baggage they had behind, the mission comes first, not old grudges and petty rivalries. You're a Nightguard now, your old legion is irrelevant. /agreed. It's like joining the Deathwatch. You leave your former self behind to become a member of an elite organisation. Did they brainwashed the Knights Errant? No. Were there former members of traitor Legions? Oh yeah. I do get your point that you don't want to erase their memories, etc. but I just don't see a reason why to even touch their memories, etc. They were chosen to fight for the galaxy as a whole against the rising danger of chaos and if they will return to their Legions it's like: What happens within the Nightguard, stays within the Nightguard. Just like within the Deathwatch. Hell, even a Space Wolves nearly gave up fighting after he served the Deathwatch and didn't even mention something of what he had seen to his pack. I do prefer that it was founded with a cadre of elite warriors from all of the Legions and afterwords recruit from secret planets or from Terra itself. 'Cause if they still recruit from the official Legions, than they will only get new recruits from the loyal Legions during the Insurrection ('cause everything else wouldn't make sense or would lead to some Alpha Legion shenanigans). I would stick with a mix between Grey Knights and Deathwatch. Before the Insurrection: members of all Legions (Deathwatch) +Insurrection starts+ Recruit from a secret source to prevent infiltration from renegade Legions. (Grey Knights) The founding members will teach them the pros of all Legions leading to a mighty and truly elite force in this galaxy, capable to deal with deamons and their traitorous allies (Legions) alike. @Slips: I love your ideas. Would make sense to give them multiple bases or star forts. We could maybe write a battle in which the traitors (or whoever) tried to conquer one: The Last Stand of Vigil Decimus Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/320938-ia-the-nightguard/page/3/#findComment-4374663 Share on other sites More sharing options...
bluntblade Posted April 24, 2016 Share Posted April 24, 2016 I'm curious, Bluntblade, what were you thinking when the others said 'suppress memories'?I don't know to be quite honest, especially with an Astartes who has an eidetic memory. Closest we've got in canonverse is post-Isstvan Loken, but he's only trying to keep a lid on traumatic memories that sent him mad. Plus, he keeps his memory of who his old Legion are. Actually Kelborn just made the case I was attempting very nicely. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/320938-ia-the-nightguard/page/3/#findComment-4374670 Share on other sites More sharing options...
simison Posted April 24, 2016 Share Posted April 24, 2016 I'm curious, Bluntblade, what were you thinking when the others said 'suppress memories'?I don't know to be quite honest, especially with an Astartes who has an eidetic memory. Closest we've got in canonverse is post-Isstvan Loken, but he's only trying to keep a lid on traumatic memories that sent him mad. Plus, he keeps his memory of who his old Legion are. Actually Kelborn just made the case I was attempting very nicely. Okay. It just looked like two parties were speaking past each other for the past page or two. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/320938-ia-the-nightguard/page/3/#findComment-4374734 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Slips Posted April 25, 2016 Share Posted April 25, 2016 Question: I've seen LA:Nightguard mentioned but cannot find anything on what it actually provides rules-wise. Does that mean it's nonexistent or is it someplace else? I ask since I'm currently giving Odyssals a ruleset and instead of giving the Scions another Character, I'm liable to just give him LA:NG instead since thats where he'll end up if his character arc pans out. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/320938-ia-the-nightguard/page/3/#findComment-4374871 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sigismund229 Posted April 25, 2016 Author Share Posted April 25, 2016 LA: Nightguard exists, it's over in the rules thread Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/320938-ia-the-nightguard/page/3/#findComment-4374916 Share on other sites More sharing options...
bluntblade Posted April 25, 2016 Share Posted April 25, 2016 Sim, I think you have a point there. I was thinking about our would-be knights errant more than the entity we'd set up and had a bit of of tunnel vision in that sense. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/320938-ia-the-nightguard/page/3/#findComment-4374919 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kelborn Posted April 25, 2016 Share Posted April 25, 2016 Finally, it is over. ^^ I followed this discussion the whole day but wasn't able to answer to it via phone (would have taken hours to write my post ^^). So again: peace, joy and pancakes? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/320938-ia-the-nightguard/page/3/#findComment-4374935 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sigismund229 Posted April 25, 2016 Author Share Posted April 25, 2016 I suppose I was being unclear with what I meant. They don't forget, thet repress. They still have the memories but they kip a lid on tge emotions caused by those memories so that they don't interfere with their judgement in battle. So Odyssales and Nux could still experienced surges of emotion and memories coming back but they would need to be like "No, I'm a Nightguard now. My only loyalty is to the Emperor" like Loken did to Horus. I hope that would work for you blunt? And I hope it's acceptable to everyone else? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/320938-ia-the-nightguard/page/3/#findComment-4374938 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Slips Posted April 25, 2016 Share Posted April 25, 2016 Thats cool. However, them doing that doesn't necessitate any memory manipulation. The best cannon example would be how the Deathwatch Functions; they Swear Great and Terrible Oaths and will abide by them for the duration of their Vigil. So that means even if two members from Rival Chapters are in the same Kill-Team they are expected to work together and Deathwatch Command gives little to no about what the marines have to say on the subject. They can deal with it and get the job done or get kicked out forever be dishonored. And for ALL Space Marines (Loyalists At least), Honor is paramount especially when the Dishonor stains the Chapter/Legion. So just create an Oath that all members of the Nightguard must take and abide by and we should be all good to go. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/320938-ia-the-nightguard/page/3/#findComment-4374953 Share on other sites More sharing options...
bluntblade Posted April 25, 2016 Share Posted April 25, 2016 Sigi, I was really taking it as read that they'd be doing that, as loyal Astartes. They understand full well the consequences if they don't do their job properly. So yup, all acceptable to me. Also, Nux and Khârn in particular will know all too well how a fight with a Primarch would end. I'm thinking their "errands" will see them venturing behind enemy lines, perhaps realising before anyone else that the Insurrectionists have taken the plunge into Chaos as the Blood Crusade begins. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/320938-ia-the-nightguard/page/3/#findComment-4374997 Share on other sites More sharing options...
MikhalLeNoir Posted April 25, 2016 Share Posted April 25, 2016 About recruiting. What if among the traitors is one who the psykers deem as worthy but he fights acitvely for the reformists or insurrectionists? Cuz he is loyal to his brothers. But he is not tainted by the warp. Would the seekers seek those lost souls out and give them the same choice? ( of course they kill the traitors if the refuse to join them on that scenario) Will they then be integrated or need they join a special force in tbe wardens? A warp scout team who roams the space of the warp (do ilar to the frontier guys of the nightwatch) Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/320938-ia-the-nightguard/page/3/#findComment-4374998 Share on other sites More sharing options...
MikhalLeNoir Posted April 25, 2016 Share Posted April 25, 2016 @blunt: now is the question will they be errants or nightguard? As i understand it at tbe moment those are 2 different things. Sig write some story with the lion, The void eagle (?) and the warden who fetched Khârn. But those chaps were knight errant or am I mistaken? And sorry for the double post. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/320938-ia-the-nightguard/page/3/#findComment-4375002 Share on other sites More sharing options...
bluntblade Posted April 25, 2016 Share Posted April 25, 2016 Sigi, I was really taking it as read that they'd be doing that, as loyal Astartes. They understand full well the consequences if they don't do their job properly. So yup, all acceptable to me. Also, Nux and Khârn in particular will know all too well how a fight with a Primarch would end. I'm thinking their "errands" will see them venturing behind enemy lines, perhaps realising before anyone else that the Insurrectionists have taken the plunge into Chaos as the Blood Crusade begins. Mikhael, I suggest they become our equivalents to the knights errant, until the endgame when, having learned about just how far Icarion has fallen, they become very useful to the Nightguard (some tensions between the two notwithstanding). I figured that gives them an eventual route into the NG. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/320938-ia-the-nightguard/page/3/#findComment-4375007 Share on other sites More sharing options...
MikhalLeNoir Posted April 25, 2016 Share Posted April 25, 2016 Yeah,, becoming knight errants is a good route...hey, wouldn't it be funny if Khârn become first inquisitor?^^ Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/320938-ia-the-nightguard/page/3/#findComment-4375013 Share on other sites More sharing options...
bluntblade Posted April 25, 2016 Share Posted April 25, 2016 Ah, Khârn's got a date with heroic sacrifice before the Eternity Gate. But a daydream about where the survivors might end up got spun into this: Their eyes locked on to him as he ascended the dais, and he gazed back, pondering the gulf that stretched between them. The dream of Unity, the glory of Mankind ascendant, would seem a hollow lie to them. These young men had only ever known the horror of the Insurrection. He paused for a moment, trying to find words that might bridge the gap. Make them understand what they fought for. Witness. The word rose unbidden, and his hand tightened on the hilt of his sword. The Lord Commander of the Hunters’ Tower raised his head, stepped forward, and spoke. “You were born into a nightmare, one that devoured the glories of an age that you have only ever heard spoken of. Now you are called upon to defend what remains, wondering what there is left to protect against the dark. So I tell you now that this nightmare is not one we must endure for all time. It has a beginning, and so it must have an end. Whether I will live to see it, I know not, but" he declared, his voice rising. "I know that when it does, this Tower will stand. The Nightguard will stand. The Imperium will stand." The clang of fists on breastplates rang out behind him. Almost imperceptably, the neophytes stood taller. "I saw the phosphex fires on Cadia, and waded ankle-deep in the blood that drowned Iyacrax. I fought on Terra while the Stormlord’s madness split the sky above us. I heard the funeral bell toll, that awful day. I saw the Insurrection pass, and I know that this misery too will one day be behind us. Man mastered the Stars, and we shall keep this vigil, that Man might reclaim them.” +++++ If anyone can think of a better name for the Hunters' Tower, let me know. The overall idea was simply that they'd constitute a more "inquisitive" side to the NG. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/320938-ia-the-nightguard/page/3/#findComment-4375077 Share on other sites More sharing options...
MikhalLeNoir Posted April 25, 2016 Share Posted April 25, 2016 Uhm. I really love the piece. Can. You by any chance put more witness into it? Witness tower. The they witness him in his armor etc. Why? Well this could be the moment of kharns death. Where he dreams what he could have become. Maybe before put a nightmare as Khârn the betrayer intonit. Then after the scene switch the scene..."kharns eyes.lost the fire, the warrior died" or something like that. That would be a very cool thing Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/320938-ia-the-nightguard/page/3/#findComment-4375107 Share on other sites More sharing options...
bluntblade Posted April 25, 2016 Share Posted April 25, 2016 That's another passage, that I might PM you. It has enough "witness" to sink a... ah, err... In space, no one can make a buoyancy metaphor work. Anyway, this would be part of the epilogue if we successfully reach the Insurrection's end. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/320938-ia-the-nightguard/page/3/#findComment-4375140 Share on other sites More sharing options...
MikhalLeNoir Posted April 25, 2016 Share Posted April 25, 2016 We will.:) I thought of the witness in the above story as coming through from the real world. Would fit perfectly with the part you sent me. Practically nux voice coming through but slowly the witnesses getting more spare...more faint....fading away. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/320938-ia-the-nightguard/page/3/#findComment-4375225 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doctor Perils Posted May 1, 2016 Share Posted May 1, 2016 "This is ground control to Frater Tom..." I have no idea why this song came into my head just a few minutes ago, but it's got me thinking about the NightGuard's equipment (side note: space, hyphen or one word ?) With the song came an image of a space marine wearing an astronaut-style helmet, complete with bubble visor (yes, I know it's kitsch and sounds very much like Starcraft Marines, but tptptptptp *blows a raspberry*) Why could this be linked to the NightGuard, and why could it actually be pretty awesome? you ask. It's actually pretty simple: the NightGuard from what I gather, must fight daemons and other creatures of the warp, but with the same concentration of psykers as a "classic" legion, and not the same amounts as the Grey Knights or Lightning Bearers. Of course, this must be really difficult, so I'm sure that they have developped some kind of equipment or something. As a small reminder, it has been stated that ships in the warp have some kind of specialised "windscreen" allowing mortal captains to gaze into the warp for short amounts of time without becoming mad. Cue the bubble-helm idea: what if the Nightguard could have helmets made of the same material, helping them fight the fickle creatures of the warp, and even allowing them to take the fight into the Empyrion (or at least the Eye of Terror) for short attack excursions. As an extension to the idea, their Terminator suits could be equipped with miniature Geller-field generators as opposed to the normal forcefield generators: these would not protect them from "mundane" attacks, and could even harm them when coming across pariahs, but they would be extremely good protection against daemonic or psychic attacks. Anyway, that was just a short idea (explained in many lines) for possible NightGuard equipment, what do you think ? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/320938-ia-the-nightguard/page/3/#findComment-4381088 Share on other sites More sharing options...
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