Angels of Caliban (Spoilers)

[DarkChaplain]

The fight between the two is one full chapter in the book. Curze was being outmaneuvered by the Lion and his Legion. He has become predictable, especially for the Lion, who is also drawing more on his hunting instincts than in previous books.

 

We know he was hunting for Curze on the Invincible Reason before, but then his senses were more blunted due to the amount of crew and Marines on board. It is heavily implied that El'Jonson has psychic abilities, passive, that allow him to sense surrounding beings and detect threats. That's how he survived on Caliban early on, but it also fueled his paranoia, I'd say.

 

The fight itself didn't leave the Lion unscarred, but he also threw in Curze's face that he had passed up his best chance at killing him: Surprise. It is made clear that Curze doesn't wish him to die quickly, but instead bask in his victory, and play demagogue once more. The Lion knows that, feeds it and surprises Curze with his actions. And yes, at one point the Night Haunter begs for release, whereas the Lion takes him, bashes him around and breaks his back.

 

But again, there IS some support from his Legion, both in preparing the battleground (again, due to Curze's predictability at this point, trying to make a point and using certain locations for it) and some minor interventions.

 

I would not call it fanservice, but well-put spotlighting of the Lion as a Primarch, and a predator himself. It is the logical conclusion of their back and forth, with El'Jonson going to hunt. The Night Haunter's own character flaws and obsession are just catching up with him at last, as he underestimated his brother while making himself vulnerable.

 

Besides, I wouldn't call it an utter defeat, as Curze has played his cards well up to that point. He instigated uprisings, which destabilized Imperium Secundus in various ways, and afterwards he basically tears the Triumvirate apart during his trial. He is vindicated in certain ways, while riling up Konor's ancient foes on Macragge. He played the Lion for a fool for quite a long time before he caught on to him.

[b1soul]

That in no way addresses my question LOL

[Sandlemad]

It's a pretty well-written fight. It doesn't come off as DA fan service. You should read it.

[God-Potato of Mankind]

It's a pretty well-written fight. It doesn't come off as DA fan service. You should read it.

 

Still yet to finish, so avoiding this thread for now, but most of the Dark Angels (Lion included) come off as petulant children to me. 

 

Which is a good thing, because typically when I read Horus Heresy books I come away with an intense craving to starting collecting the Legions in said book. I *maybe* have a slightly crush on Fairth and the Dreadwing but .. good lord the rest. 

[Allart01]

 

It's a pretty well-written fight. It doesn't come off as DA fan service. You should read it.

 

Still yet to finish, so avoiding this thread for now, but most of the Dark Angels (Lion included) come off as petulant children to me. 

 

Which is a good thing, because typically when I read Horus Heresy books I come away with an intense craving to starting collecting the Legions in said book. I *maybe* have a slightly crush on Fairth and the Dreadwing but .. good lord the rest. 

 

 

Could you please elaborate on this?

 

I agree that Gav's marine aren't always... what you'd exepect from an Astartes, like that one in Ravenwing who played with Corvex while Sammael wasn't looking.

THAT looked like a child.

Didn't notice nothing too strange with this book, though. I think it's probably his best heresy books.

[b1soul]

How many HH books does Gav have?

 

Deliverance Lost was abominable

[God-Potato of Mankind]

It hit me right from the start, when the Lion pitched up to yell at Luther for leaving Caliban under Horus's request. 

 

It seems the Lion is petulantly punishing Luther in the way that a child gets upset if annother child picks up it's toy. Even if that child wasn't playing with it, he throws a strop. A threat to the Imperium emerges and the (was he Warmaster then?) asks you to join in - but Dark Angels secrecy and stubborness makes you say "nun uh" and stay on Caliban? Nope, Luther goes out and helps the Warmaster, the Lion's bro. What does the Lion do? He publicly crashes the victory celebration on the Vengeful Spirit and has a go at Horus for ordering his sons about. Just seems overly dickish. 

 

Killing Nemiel out of hand because he refused a direct order is something I'd expect from Perty or Fulgrim. 

 

So far (not finished) he's spent the rest of the novel getting very upset about how Curze beat him, to the extent he cares more about that as a personal slight than he does his brothers, his Emperor and Imperium. 

 

He routinely gets in arguments with Guilliman where "spittle flies from his mouth" he's so overtly pissed off. Just because Guilliman has the temerity to suggest they don't glass a chunk of Macragge because the Lion still hasn't found Curze. 

 

There's none of the nobility, wisdom or any other characteristic that makes me look up to this guy. It's like he's become twisted by his own personal pride to a massive extent. 

 

Oh and from what I read on my lunch break, he dumped Astelan (The First Master guy? Terran Chapter Master) on Caliban with Luther because he "upset" the Lion by trying to minimise civilian casualties. The Lion discarded a veteran from the very first days of the War for Unity (The guy still has the Emperor's personal pyschic shield on his mindbrain) because the guy had the termerity (like Guilliman) to say "oh hey maybe we shouldnt butcher or allowed to be butchered all these innocents?". To boot it doesn't seem overtly obvious he left Luther because he felt Luther was his most trusted, reliable brother and he needed his right hand man at Caliban to netflix and chill. It seems like he's purposefully discarded him there as an insult (Not just going from Luther's perspective, going from how the Lion talks to Luther at the start). It's almost as obvious as the Emperor not telling the Primarchs about Chaos that eventually they would get fed up with the Lion treating them like crap and rebel. He does nothing, seemingly, to engender loyalty in his followers. Caliban just seems like a dump for those he can't be bothered to argue with because he's too busy being petulant. 

 

Even when his current Legion buddies disagree with him, they always add "BUT I'M STUPID SO I'D SERVE YOU TO THE DEATH" because it's like they know he's no compunction in murdering them off hand. 

 

He's the least likeable Primarch I've read about so far by a long shot. Even Lorgar is nicer to his men. 

[Allart01]

Thank you for your thoughts.

Personally, I think the Lion come out of the book as a good character, strong and capable.

BUT you can also see him the way you did... and emphatize with the Fallen. 

I think it was done on purpose - and done well, it seems.

When I'll have some spare time, I'll write a defense of the Lion. 

I'm pretty sure there can be an interesting double-perspective coming out of that.

[b1soul]

The Lion already wrecked Curze in Prince of Crows...why would the Lion still be upset about their first fight???

 

Is he mad about the bombs going off and almost blowing up him and Guilliman?

[DarkChaplain]

There's none of the nobility, wisdom or any other characteristic that makes me look up to this guy. It's like he's become twisted by his own personal pride to a massive extent.

 

Isn't that the whole point of the Lion? That he is arrogant, overly proud, paranoid and doesn't trust anybody while running into more trouble as a result?

 

Towards the end, he even reflects on his own character, and his inability to speak about his worries, and regret over how he dealt with Luther and co. He's emotionally and socially stunted in many ways, and that gets pretty clear with Guilliman too. Roboute is a socially concerned Primarch who thinks of his people first, whereas it is made clear that the Lion would raze even Caliban to the ground to deal with traitors.

 

His intentions aren't so much the issue, it is the secrets, the lies, the methods he employs to realize his ambitions. And yet he still manages to bend his knee to his brothers in a way to correct his errors in some fashion.

 

As for Astelan's reason to be sent to Caliban: The situation is described in Call of the Lion from Tales of Heresy. Take it with a grain of salt, seeing how its Astelan we're talking about, probably the least trustworthy Dark Angel ever to live. Always scheming and plotting. I don't think his goal was to minimize civilian casualties alone, but also to earn some sort of personal glory and being worshipped by the people he spared in his generosity. He's got a thing for personality cults, that Astelan. He has no scruples and will seek his own advancement first.

Doesn't mean that Belath wasn't a massive bum about it all.

 

The Lion is so aloof and out of touch with everything that his own Legion is afraid to stand up to him. He tries to emulate the Mournival in a sense, but even then his advisors are afraid to voice their thoughts and are constantly on the look out for what might displease their liege. And that's basically why Horus made Warmaster and the Lion didn't: He doesn't inspire trust and faith, just awe and a sense of dread.

 

 

The Lion already wrecked Curze in Prince of Crows...why would the Lion still be upset about their first fight???

 

Is he mad about the bombs going off and almost blowing up him and Guilliman?

 

He notes that back on Tsagualsa, he still thought that Curze could be redeemed in some way, that he was just wayward. It didn't really click until the fight was well underway that the Night Haunter was a madman and too far gone. The Lion thinks he could have finished it there and then if it hadn't been for his miscalculation.

[HaSY]

Lion always exudes this stand-offish behaviour when interacting with others. I would even say that he is the most inhuman Primarch ever; even Angron can be quite friendly when the nails are not biting albeit at brief time. 

Regarding Lorgar, he treats his legion actually better than others. 

Anyway that line about Lion unsure of belonging to either forest or city of Caliban is quite telling. 

One thing for sure, First Legion's expertise is not limited to politicking, manipulation and scheming and this makes you wonder what might happen if they have high psychic pool; Tzeentch would love them. The whole Angels of Caliban is full of Game of Thrones's vibe.

One might dream what would happen if Lion, Luther, Astelan, Cypher and Zahariel were united in purpose and spirit. First Legion would be truly a force to be reckoned with. 

[Rob P]

Shamelessly cut and paste from where else i post.

 

Finished Angels of Caliban.

I didn't like the plot development which could put me on downer about the whole book if I wanted it to. In fairness, i've criticised others for moaning about a book not being the story they wanted rather than accepting the story for what it is, so the less said on that the better. I suppose when you know A, B, C (Horus Heresy) then X, Y and Z (40k) you build in your own mind how you want the steps between the develop and they didn't how I expected so that's that.

I'll spoiler from now on but the first bit might not be real spoilers:

Characters

I liked quite a few things about this book. Firstly, the characters are really well written. You really get a feel of the disctinct directions that that different characters are coming from and how that influences their actions. You also really feel how the different characters in the different places really rub each other up the wrong way. Also all the Dark Angels characters are unlikeable (Save possibly Lord Cypher).

Foreshadowing

The prologue is brilliant. Is foreshadows things that Typhon will do in the heresy. It plays on the charisma of Horus and to some extent how this is a tool rather than natural. It shows the Lion is being a bit of a jerk and not really understanding things. It shows Luthur being tempted (hoped this was a feint but alas no).

Bolterporn

More limited than expected. Only two scenes I felt were a bit drawn out via action. First was a typical first quarter 'battle' and second was primarch fight

Politicking

As briefly mentioned above, here is a lot of conflict between the characters both on Macragge and on Caliban. The conflicts on Macragge are a little more obvious. I have to admit that this is probably the best effort we have seen from a heresy author to really show friction between the primarchs at Macragge. On Caliban there is a lot of subterfuge, there is an uneasy alliance and some of the characters benefit from keeping it that way. Everyone seems to think they have the upper hand.

Plot

I did like a number of things about the plot:

(1) I liked that a lot of the plot on Caliban was driven by The Lion's rational yet 'unethical' choices. The Lion has no understanding of politics whatsoever.
(2) I liked the way 'The Emperor Lives!' played out - readers must have been screaming this for the last few books
(3) I liked how Gav Thorpe kept a lot of the unfolding plot on Caliban veiled from the reader - it made what could have been a bit of a dull arc a bit of a page turner

There are a number of things I didn't like about the plot:

(1) Zahariel's turn and motivations - Okay his initial turn is ok, but I so wanted him to see the light with the Watcher's in the Dark - or for him to get smoked
(2) Luthur's turn and motivations - I really really really wanted Luthur to not turn and have the conflict which resulted in the destruction of Caliban be a big mistake - i'm also not convinced by Luthur's rhetoric - he wants Caliban to secceed but I can't see that there ever would have been a scenario in which they would have been left alone).
(3) Another book that suggests the end of the Imperium Secundus arc but doesn't quite get there - though it is 99% there - My particular problem with the Imperium Secundus arc is that it overshadows the individual novel plots to the extent that i'm not left satisfied by the conclusion of each book

Lore

Quite a few lore bits here ...

(1) Zahariel knew the identity of the Lord Cypher - still no idea who it is myself
(2) Pandorax Grey Knight may not be Zahariel
(3) There is a chaos beast trapped in the 'soul' of Caliban - I know Xisor will love this with reference to Fenris
(4) The seeds are sown for the destruction of Caliban
(5) Typhon is again tied into the Dark Angels story arc
(6) Deathwing and Dreadwing explained with reference to pre-lodge lodges
(7) Astelen as one of the earlier Space Marines was gifted by the Emperor with some sort of passive psyker shield
(8) The Lord Cypher seemed to be one of the good guys - until Zahariel killed him and took up the roll - was he killed off screen though?
(9) Dark Angels have some cool pre-Mars tech - better than volkites
(10) The Lion appears to plan to head to Terra with Sanguinius and Guilliman by end of book - so don't know how they split off
(11) Sanguinius is resigned to his fate
(12) There is an Imperial 'spy' in the Caliban dungeon - was this a Knights Errant? Can't remember if this was in Grey Angel

 

[DarkChaplain]

Yeah, the spy was a reference to Grey Angel. Loken, specifically.

[b1soul]

He notes that back on Tsagualsa, he still thought that Curze could be redeemed in some way, that he was just wayward. It didn't really click until the fight was well underway that the Night Haunter was a madman and too far gone.

...and yet the Lion starts the fight/brawl by stabbing Konrad's stomach. That's a very odd road toward redeeming someone, ha

[DarkChaplain]

Not really concerning, now, is it? They're Primarchs. They can have their backs broken and get better.

[b1soul]

I would not call it fanservice, but well-put spotlighting of the Lion as a Primarch, and a predator himself. It is the logical conclusion of their back and forth, with El'Jonson going to hunt. The Night Haunter's own character flaws and obsession are just catching up with him at last, as he underestimated his brother while making himself vulnerable.

By the way, thanks for the breakdown

 

 

When I said "that in no way addresses my question", thay was directed at helterskelter's rant at the bottom of the previous page.

[helterskelter]

Was only a partial rant. I forget my humour is a touch dry for some. Sorry about that

 

 

 

When I said "that in no way addresses my question", thay was directed at helterskelter's rant at the bottom of the previous page.

If you're talking to me, quote me ;)

[Damon Nightman]

Sorry if this has already been asked but didn't see it while skimming, but how would you say Sanguinius is depicted? I'm very disappointed so far by how it sounds from the descriptions posted. And also only 4 sanguinary guard left?

[rendingon1+]

I noticed that legion name origins were retconed. In Descent of Angels Lion names the First after mythical cratures from Caliban legends (Dark Angels) not to mention it was Luther who first quoted some poetry (or something) about Dark Angels when he saw assault squad Midris deploying on jump packs (first contact with the Imperium).

In Angels of Caliban there is a scene when Luther reflects upon name Dark Angels, wondering why the Emperor has choosen such name for the I legion. For me it looks like blatant retcon just for "dark angels belong to me" sake. Unnecessary and confusing.

[Rob P]

So who was Lord Cypher? Hope it's not a daft time travel thing.

 

@Brother Lemartes - Sanguinius was very emotionally distant in the story, like there was some introspection that didn't get written in. He was the least active of the three primarchs in pretty much every way. Not a great showing if you were looking for fluff or character development.

[DarkChaplain]

It is pretty much in character for Sanguinius, though. He's never liked his role as new Emperor, and made it clear before. He lets the Lion and Roboute argue and then decides, sometimes compromising, sometimes going against both in a way.

He is trying to take it more seriously here, where in Pharos, which occurs just before this one kicks in, he was even more reluctant and trying to avoid doing his role.

 

However, he has some great insights into Curze to offer, and brings up his own vision of death to Horus to his brothers. He is resigned to his fate, and would gladly die if it saves the Emperor, and brings up the possibility that him refusing Horus' offer in the end and defying him might be the deciding factor. He also goes full Blood Angel on Curze and is only stopped by the Lion's intervention. It was pretty unsettling to see how Sanguinius unchained would be like.

[Damon Nightman]

Thanks for the replies about my main man sanguinius! Dark chaplain you specifically made me feel a bit better. I want to see the dark bad*** side of him! From what I've read so far, I've been very disappointed with how he let Curze go before but the lion was able to wreck Cruze apparently. And also the entire sanguinary guard and azkellon being pooped on... Yeah not the happiest BA fan, but thanks for the info guys!

[Rob P]

The depictions in Pharos are far different. The reason for the success of the Lion in this book appears to arise from the fact that Curze can't surprise him any more and he plans to kill him.

 

On the other hand, the Sanguinus v Curze fight in Pharos has two significant elements. The first is this idea of precognition vs precognition and the idea of fate. There is also the twisted brotherly bond which the Lion doesn't seem to be shackled by. Basically, it's not a case of x primarch could beat y primarch in a straight up fight but z couldn't beat y.

 

My genuine impression of Sanguinius in this book is that he was uninterested with all of it. He only appeared to intervene between the Lion and Guilliman when absolutely required to and he was otherwise (as I said before) distant. Whether this is solely because of his acceptance of fate or not is not clear to me.

[Damon Nightman]

Awesome thanks for the explanation. Really appreciate the info! 

[HaSY]

At the very least, Sanguinius did not believe in pre-destination as he believes in the very purpose and reason of visions to take place; he does not accept or embrace any vision and succumb to it. 

In short, that makes him baller than those that like resigned to their fates as they believe nothing can change what will happen next. Afterall, hope is the first step on the road to disappointment, isn't it? At the same time, there is something poignant that accompanies the nature of self-fulfilling prophecy.

 

While most depictions are really about Sanguinius and his nobility in everything, his combat beast mode is always the one that is gripping and captures our attention. However, no matter how telling it is as the Heresy is going to end up in the way that we expect, Sanguinius still remains as the marvelous piece that sees the end to Horus and his heresy.

If there is a something that will blow you mind away, it is Sanguinius and his conviction. He represents hope itself in the increasingly hopeless and bleak universe as the glories of Great Crusade fades away. It is still symbolic even up till present-day Warhammer 40K universe. 

Just as ethereal as he is, so too the nature of hope that he represents. It is still a mystery to both those that doubt or believe. Sangunius does not just accept the things as they are; he is going to make them more meaningful and better for the future. Compared to Curze who is tormented by visions and sees his death only as vindication, Sanguinius uses his death to serve better purpose. (Even Sanguinius is worried about the sanction that might fall on his legion due to their thirst and flaw.)

 

In this book especially, Sanguinius embodies the hope in making his inevitable sacrifice with purpose. He is grim yet hopeful of the things to come. By the way, Sangunius is not favourite Primarch as I love Lion ElJonson, no matter how flawed he is. If Lion has the luxury of living with Luther and his family, how different things can be...

"He should be the one that becomes the Warmaster" - Horus, approving Sanguinius that he is the best choice.