Unforgiven and Grey Knights - Common Rank Structure

[Phoebus]

Since at least Codex: Dark Angels (Third Edition), the Unforgiven have featured a rank structure wherein a Supreme Grand Master led the Chapter and the individual companies were led by Masters or Grand Masters.

 

In 2003, Codex: Daemonhunters was released. For the first time (I think), the forces of the Grey Knights were said to be led by Grand Masters (though there was no mention of an overall Chapter commander). The first Codex: Grey Knights introduced Kaldor Draigo, Supreme Grand Master.

 

For several years, I chalked up that common trait as coincidental. With the novel Pandorax, however, we had the revelation (or, as close as one might get to the word) that Epimetheus, one of the founding members of the Grey Knights, was once a brother of the First Legion. Which Dark Angel Epimetheus was is a matter of debate, but what I'm more interested in is the idea that this brother's origins could be the "bridge" (if you will) that explains the commonalities in rank structure between the Unforgiven and the Grey Knights.

 

So, could a Dark Angel have been responsible for shaping much of the Grey Knights' organization and culture?

[Quixus]

At least for Captains (i.e. leaders of a company) C:SM tells us that Captain is just the standard designation for the job, but some chapters have other names for that rank. GK are weird in that each Brotherhood (grouping of knights about company strength) has a Grand Master and a Brother-Captain.

 

Most of all I think that it is simply a lack of imagination on GW's part. They wanted  both the DA and the GK to feel like knightly orders and so gave the officers titles reminiscent of those orders.

[Captain Semper]

I love Phoebus' debates! :lol:

 

On the matter at hand, I doubt the DAs were prevalent for the internal structure of the Grey Knights as I'd assume that the Sigilite and then the Inquisition would have total control away from the Legions. I think the identity of Epimethius would be key. I wouldnt be surprised if he was even one from those on Caliban, so technically a Fallen... :o

 

I also think that the term Grand Master was used to give the Grey Knights a more esoteric feel - much like their companies are called Brotherhoods (less militant, more monastic and cryptic). Ultimately GW had to come up with the rank that towers above Grand Master and, inevitably, this was Supreme Grand Master. 

 

So I'd go with the "coincidence" theory rather than the "secret connection" but I have to agree, the secret connection is an appealing theory. :lol:

[jbaeza94]

Wait a minute, to be a fallen he had to be on caliban, but the gray knights were founded during the heresy with Garro,under a different name. Wouldn't the dark angel be part of this group, and on titan and not on caliban?

 

EDIT: The Knights Errant.

[Captain Semper]

Well, it is obvious he's not one of the founding members as the Garro series have not mentioned a Dark Angel yet. I'm sure the recruitment must have continued well after the Heresy ended. And given that the Legion of origin was not an auto-fail to join (quite the opposite) if Epimethius was deemed pure of heart by say the Sigilite himself he may have been one of the initial Grey Knights. That of course requires some elaborate back story and it's nothing more than a wild guess on my part but I think it'll add depth to both the DAs and the GKs! :)

[jbaeza94]

Well, it is obvious he's not one of the founding members as the Garro series have not mentioned a Dark Angel yet. I'm sure the recruitment must have continued well after the Heresy ended. And given that the Legion of origin was not an auto-fail to join (quite the opposite) if Epimethius was deemed pure of heart by say the Sigilite himself he may have been one of the initial Grey Knights. That of course requires some elaborate back story and it's nothing more than a wild guess on my part but I think it'll add depth to both the DAs and the GKs! :)

Nemean Reaver was the dark angels "name". I think he's in the new 30k book. Either way! Most likely a different astartes than Epimethius ha :)

[Phoebus]

First off, happy Father's Day to those of you raising Aspirants or expecting their arrival!

Most of all I think that it is simply a lack of imagination on GW's part. They wanted both the DA and the GK to feel like knightly orders and so gave the officers titles reminiscent of those orders.

I think this was probably true circa Codex: Daemonhunters and Codex: Grey Knights (5th Edition). My personal theory is that this changed in 2013. Stay with me for a minute or two:

Asmodai, Azrael, Belial, Ezekiel, Sammael. These are the names most consistent between Codex: Dark Angels and the fiction written about this most august of Chapters of the Adeptus Astartes. Sapphon, too, deserves to mentioned, even if he's not necessarily present as a specific character in recent codices. One thing that caught my eye in the latest edition, however, is the presence of Balthasar as Master of Fifth Company.

Not one other Company Master in the Codex correlates with the names given in other fiction. What I found interesting about this is that this character was created by Christian Dunn, who, besides writing Dark Angels fiction, is one of Black Library's editors. Nor is Balthasar Dunn's only character to feature in game products; Interrogator-Chaplain Seraphicus, of Dark Vengeance fame, also featured in one of the Dark Angels miniatures releases.

More to the point, Dunn authored Pandorax. In this novel, Epimetheus is revealed to be ...

“The most powerful among their number. One of their founding brothers.”

Excerpt From: C Z Dunn. “Pandorax.” iBooks.

"Their," of course, refers to the Grey Knights.

So, whereas before Supreme Grand Masters and Grand Masters existing in both the Dark Angels and the Grey Knights was a happy coincidence, I think Dunn changed all that. I think he saw an opportunity to take a mere similarity and turn it into a real link between the two Chapters.

I love Phoebus' debates!

On the matter at hand, I doubt the DAs were prevalent for the internal structure of the Grey Knights as I'd assume that the Sigilite and then the Inquisition would have total control away from the Legions. I think the identity of Epimethius would be key. I wouldnt be surprised if he was even one from those on Caliban, so technically a Fallen...

Thanks, Captain Semper! I'm a sucker for this sort of thing, and I'm glad others are interested as well!

Two things...

1. The Sigillite hid Titan during the time when the Grey Knights built themselves up into a Chapter, but he wasn't actually there during said hiding period:

"Malcador oversaw the initial creation of the Grey Knights, but he could not remain to oversee their evolution, so selected one of the eight to lead the Chapter in the years to come.

...
Before leaving Titan for the final time, Malcador forged one last enchantment, greater than any that had come before it. Titan vanished completely from its orbit, hidden from Horus in the most unlikely of refuges – Malcador had anchored it amongst the tides of the Warp.”

Excerpt From: Games Workshop. “Codex: Grey Knights.” Games Workshop, 2011.

If Epimetheus was one of the original members of the Grey Knights, then over the period that Titan was hidden from both time and space (ten years in the eyes of the Imperium; centuries to the Grey Knights themselves), the former Dark Angel (edit) could have put his mark on that Chapter.

Wait a minute, to be a fallen he had to be on caliban, but the gray knights were founded during the heresy with Garro,under a different name. Wouldn't the dark angel be part of this group, and on titan and not on caliban?

EDIT: The Knights Errant.

Perhaps. The Knights Errant are distinct from the Grey Knights, but it's almost certain that there is a link of continuity between the two. That having been said, remember that Loken and Qruze already made it to Caliban from Terra once. Who knows what the events of Angels of Caliban (a novel I haven't read yet) might drive certain Calibanite characters to do?

Well, it is obvious he's not one of the founding members as the Garro series have not mentioned a Dark Angel yet. I'm sure the recruitment must have continued well after the Heresy ended. And given that the Legion of origin was not an auto-fail to join (quite the opposite) if Epimethius was deemed pure of heart by say the Sigilite himself he may have been one of the initial Grey Knights. That of course requires some elaborate back story and it's nothing more than a wild guess on my part but I think it'll add depth to both the DAs and the GKs!

Pandorax points to this Epimetheus being one of the founding members. As far as when recruitment ceased, remember: the Sigillite perishes prior to the Emperor assuming the Golden Throne. His last act, insofar as the Grey Knights are concerned, is hiding Titan. At that point, there were, supposedly, just the eight founding brothers and recruits to bolster their ranks. Note, however:

“Suitable recruits had been gathered from across the span of the galaxy; some were raw and untrained, others selected in secret from the ranks of those Space Marine Legions that had remained loyal.”

Excerpt From: Games Workshop. “Codex: Grey Knights.” Games Workshop, 2011.

I tend to lean toward Epimetheus coming from Caliban and being one of the original eight. Had he been one of the recruits the original eight met on Titan, before the Sigillite hid them, he would've needed to come from the Dark Angels following the Lion or from one of the Blackshield elements (like the Nemean). I'm not sure he would've been as afraid to run into the Dark Angels in Pandorax had that been the case, though.

Well, it is obvious he's not one of the founding members as the Garro series have not mentioned a Dark Angel yet. I'm sure the recruitment must have continued well after the Heresy ended. And given that the Legion of origin was not an auto-fail to join (quite the opposite) if Epimethius was deemed pure of heart by say the Sigilite himself he may have been one of the initial Grey Knights. That of course requires some elaborate back story and it's nothing more than a wild guess on my part but I think it'll add depth to both the DAs and the GKs!

Nemean Reaver was the dark angels "name". I think he's in the new 30k book. Either way! Most likely a different astartes than Epimethius ha

Thanks for reminding me of the Nemean, jbaeza94! I'm still processing the lore from the latest Horus Heresy book!

[Captain Semper]

Flying to NY now (still on the ground mind you) so will read the latest book on the way there (assuming I can keep my eyes open). :lol:

 

You're right - Epimetheus could very well be one of the 8 technically making him one of the founding members. Now whether he played a role in modeling the GK internal structure on the DA post heresy internal structure I find it highly improbable. More so if he did come from the Caliban stock (for which I have no evidence whatsoever - pure speculation)

[Harleqvin]

Thought that was just what they called him and it is not his real name.
That that was the blurb about The Nemean Reaver in the HH book 6.

Edit

"No certain record holds the true name of the Blackshield Reaver Lord who became known throughout
the Pale Stars as the Nemean Reaver -or simply the Nemean. It is generally held that he was once an
 officer of the 1st Legion -the Dark Angels- though this is far from certain. An unconfirmed rumour
that attached itself to this figure pointed the Nemean as the survivor of the Rangdan Xenocides, the
apocalyptic conflict that saw the nascent Imperium threatened with destruction, and he had already
entered the legends of the Legiones Astartes long before the heresy.

Whether true or not, that rumour ascribed the Nemean Reaver the attributes of a veteran of this dark
and terrible conflict, and speaks to the ruthless and inhuman reputation this Blackshield commander
had achieved in the brief span of years that formed the Horus Heresy's middle phase, known post-commonly
as the Age of Darkness.

Evidence suggests that after the Pale Star conflict, the Nemean Reaver, or at least a figure claiming
that name, would in the later years of the war come to serve Malcador the Sigilite, a duty that culminate
upon the walls of Terra at the very climax of the Horus Heresy."



So maybe The Nemean is Epimethius who is a founding member of the Grey Knights.

[Phoebus]

Harleqvin,

 

Again, the key issue is the timing. Unless that excerpt you cited suffers from "fog of war," the Nemean appears to have been on Terra after Malcador took the first eight to Titan and hid that planet from space and time.

[Harleqvin]

It's what is stated in the HH game book 6. That's all I know. lqtm

The " " part