Space Wolves (and Leman Russ) Identity Discussion

[Runefyre]

This thread is for those of us who wish to discuss in detail the role AND portrayal of the Space Wolves in the Horus Heresy.

 

DISCLAIMER: If you don't have something constructive to say, then don't say it. Let all of us be civil and refrain from demeaning and incorrect monikers when referring to any faction.

 

So to start off, FW as of late seems to be returning to the "executioner" label for the SW's.

 

Is this just puff-piece praise, or is it an actual indication of the new direction FW said they were taking the SW's in?

 

When reading Horus Heresy novels, SW's consistently come off as underpowered*, especially in the legion v legion conflicts that "executioners" should excel in. But given that FW seems to want to refer to SW's AS executioners, perhaps there's something going on behind the scenes to sabotage their capabilities?

 

Maybe Horus considered them a big enough threat that he tasked someone with intercepting or delaying supply convoys and intelligence? This would help account for the lack of armoured support the SW's had on Prospero, and maybe the bad repair their ships were in at Alaxxes and Yarrant.

 

Another topic I've always been confused by is the rather blatant hypocrisy of the SW's regarding the origination of Rune Priest psykic powers compared to the other Legion's Librarians*. Could it be that those born of Fenris have greater control over the warp? Or do the SW's just not care what other Legions think of them, so long as they have a tactical advantage over possible enemies? I'm increasingly becoming fond of the latter explanation.

 

Just some initial thoughts.

 

*see A Thousand Sons, Wolf King, Betrayer, Hunter's Moon, and (to a certain extent) Prospero Burns

*see A Thousand Sons

 

[helterskelter]

Black library is a bit further ahead than FW, so while it seems FW are "going back" and dragging the fluff kicking and screaming back into the light, I'm of the thought it's just for chronological orders sake, as it's before russ starts feeling pants about things.

[Atia]

I think FW will do the same thing they did with the Alpha Legion - bringing all sources together and make the "whole picture" of the Legion.

 

I for my part enjoy my Space Wolves as Space Wolves - they have pets, and thunderwolves, and I even like the sled. That said I think the current GW kits are "too much" and I usually mix them with FW parts to balance it out. 

 

At the end, it probably doesn't matters if you like Space Wolvy Wolves, Executioners of the Emperor or just boring grey clad Space Marines - you will be able to do all of these aspects. 

[betrayer41]

Executioners alllllllll the way

 

#executed

http://i784.photobucket.com/albums/yy123/wareagle411/B3C13C4E-80DA-45B7-A414-A848EA84B9A9_zps4ktux2aj.jpg

[Huggtand]

Another topic I've always been confused by is the rather blatant hypocrisy of the SW's regarding the origination of Rune Priest psykic powers compared to the other Legion's Librarians*. Could it be that those born of Fenris have greater control over the warp? Or do the SW's just not care what other Legions think of them, so long as they have a tactical advantage over possible enemies? I'm increasingly becoming fond of the latter explanation.

*see A Thousand Sons, Wolf King, Betrayer, Hunter's Moon, and (to a certain extent) Prospero Burns

*see A Thousand Sons

In the Horus Heresy series the main argument in the edict is one of control.

The Runepriests means that the Librarian program (and TS especially) don’t have enough control of their powers. They don’t lump themselves in that category since they don’t draw from the warp directly (their belief) rather than channeling it through Fenris and therefore have control and safety measures in what they do. Since they don´t see themselves as librarian-psykers they are (in their own eyes) not targeted by the edict.

It’s also interesting that neither Malcador, the custodian and the Sisters of Silense seems to mind that the runepriests is not disbanded. And the Custodian for example was pretty touchy when it came to even the possibility of Corax Librarius.

As for other sources, the HH series sems to retcon them as it goes along. As all GW fluff it´s of course always open for interpretation and all authors have their take on it

[Leif Bearclaw]

 

When reading Horus Heresy novels, SW's consistently come off as underpowered*, especially in the legion v legion conflicts that "executioners" should excel in. But given that FW seems to want to refer to SW's AS executioners, perhaps there's something going on behind the scenes to sabotage their capabilities?

 

Maybe Horus considered them a big enough threat that he tasked someone with intercepting or delaying supply convoys and intelligence? This would help account for the lack of armoured support the SW's had on Prospero, and maybe the bad repair their ships were in at Alaxxes and Yarrant.

 

Frankly, it was one of the only positive outcome from Abnett's 13th Warrior regarding the VI. Therefore, if that's the direction FW are going, all the better. There are concerns, but more on that later. I liked the executioner concept because it made Prospero make sense. Previously, why would Russ, a reasonably simple Primarch, with a distrust of sorcery and an obvious axe to grind vs Magnus(as was seen in the old IAs), be sent on a sensitive retrieval mission? But in PB it makes perfect sense. Astartes fighting Astartes was anathema to the Legions (later revelations about the WEs notwithstanding, which were a bad move imo). Except the Wolves. If the Sons resisted, the Wolves were the only Legion that could be relied on not to hesitate, not waver. Unimpeachable loyalty and dedication, whatever the cost. That's the VI Legion we see in PB, and it was great. Shame about the rest of the book...

 

 

When reading Horus Heresy novels, SW's consistently come off as underpowered*, especially in the legion v legion conflicts that "executioners" should excel in. But given that FW seems to want to refer to SW's AS executioners, perhaps there's something going on behind the scenes to sabotage their capabilities?

 

Maybe Horus considered them a big enough threat that he tasked someone with intercepting or delaying supply convoys and intelligence? This would help account for the lack of armoured support the SW's had on Prospero, and maybe the bad repair their ships were in at Alaxxes and Yarrant.

Frankly, it's this stuff which makes me regard the Wolves as one of the worst done by Legion as far as BL goes. The performance just doesn't match, they've been stripped of all their previous fluff of great accomplishments (3rd nost successful Legion, circa Lion and Wolf story), to be replaced by loyalty as their USP, which FW then undermine that with their asinine Traitor Loyalists' cut away (from Conquest iirc). Leaving the Wolves with precious little in the 'pro' column.

 

What bugs me the most is that neither FW or BL seem willing to give the Wolves their moment in the sun. Every mention of Prospero thus far has had the Wolves essentially as nothing more than red shirt mooks, with the Custodes and SoS taking a central position in the narrative (both in ATS and PB, plsu every other passing mention I can recall generally boiling down to dead Wolves). Then there's FW/BL potentially completely ruining the entire point of the story with changing the Legion numbers/disposition (most of the Sons not being even present, as of a ATS reprint, FW being rumoured to make both Legions smaller than the RG). Then they need to be bailed out by a forgotten force of DAs at Alaxxes (Wolf King). Whereas the DAs (Thramas), BAs (Signus), WSs (Scars, Path to Heaven) etc. have all been able to do their thing without outside help. The Wolves just don't seem to be allowed to win on their own. And that's not even mentioning the Watch Packs...

 

This really bugs me when compared to one of FW's darlings, in many ways the 40k equivalent of the VI, The Minotaurs. They're not especially liked by many of their peers, because they do the High Lords bidding first and foremost. Yet they're also incredibly well tooled up, because they're the hatchet men. Whereas the Wolves seem to constantly woefully ill equipped, hell even crazy, borderline outlaw Legions like the NLs and WEs seem to have more allied Titans, Knights and Army formations, plus a better logistic base (even before the 2 years or so of 'Traitors get the best toys') than the Wolves (Wolf King).

 

 

Another topic I've always been confused by is the rather blatant hypocrisy of the SW's regarding the origination of Rune Priest psykic powers compared to the other Legion's Librarians*. Could it be that those born of Fenris have greater control over the warp? Or do the SW's just not care what other Legions think of them, so long as they have a tactical advantage over possible enemies? I'm increasingly becoming fond of the latter explanation.

This is also seven shades of awful. Tbh I think Nikea has been one of the most mismanaged things in the HH series, and damned if I know why. The old fluff 'Librarian good, Sorcerer bad' (as shown in IA) was fine. In keeping with the Imperium's need for psychic power, but acknowledging that it's possible to delve too deep. Under that version, RPs were absolutely fine, because they're a more controlled form of psychic power. Which is kinda what they're still going for, but the older version has less infuriating hypocrisy in it.

 

Of course, if it turns out they essentially get an exemption, because the authorities knew the Wolves would be the guys who had to sort out any breaches of the edict, and hence would need psychic support, that'd be a reasonable explanation.

 

Edit: More detail on the sources, thanks Runefyre.

[Sete]

It amuses me the fact that they think their warp powers comes from Fenris. It's a level of hipocrisy bordering the Templars with Astrophats and Navigators. Yeah burn the witch and loath the mutant, but these dudes here are cool. xD

 

Anyway the Executioners and what not, really never gave too much thought about it, but if I'm not mistaken, and correct me if I am wrong, Russ didn't like Fenris.I also like the fact that he played the Barbarian King role.

 

I'm not a big fan of 40k Wolves, but they need a Victory or 2 in the Heresy. So far they have been the Worf (no pun intended) of the series.

 

BTW betrayer where did you get those legs?

[Runefyre]

It amuses me the fact that they think their warp powers comes from Fenris. It's a level of hipocrisy bordering the Templars with Astrophats and Navigators. Yeah burn the witch and loath the mutant, but these dudes here are cool. xD

 

Anyway the Executioners and what not, really never gave too much thought about it, but if I'm not mistaken, and correct me if I am wrong, Russ didn't like Fenris.I also like the fact that he played the Barbarian King role.

 

I'm not a big fan of 40k Wolves, but they need a Victory or 2 in the Heresy. So far they have been the Worf (no pun intended) of the series.

 

BTW betrayer where did you get those legs?

But maybe they (the Space Wolves) just don't care what other legions or organisations think of them so long as they keep the advantage? The idea isn't directly proven in the books but I think it follows the precedence for the Wolves "always know your enemies' weaknesses" mantra.

 

And yeah I would like Wolf King to have a re-write without so DA don't get involved. That would put SW's just about in line with the accomplishments of other loyalist legions.

 

White Scars: Scars, Path to Heaven

Dark Angels: Angels of Caliban

Blood Angels: Fear to Tread

Imperial Fists: Pharos, Praetorian of Dorn

[Icarus1138]

When reading Horus Heresy novels, SW's consistently come off as underpowered*, especially in the legion v legion conflicts that "executioners" should excel in. But given that FW seems to want to refer to SW's AS executioners, perhaps there's something going on behind the scenes to sabotage their capabilities?

 

Maybe Horus considered them a big enough threat that he tasked someone with intercepting or delaying supply convoys and intelligence? This would help account for the lack of armoured support the SW's had on Prospero, and maybe the bad repair their ships were in at Alaxxes and Yarrant.

 

Another topic I've always been confused by is the rather blatant hypocrisy of the SW's regarding the origination of Rune Priest psykic powers compared to the other Legion's Librarians*. Could it be that those born of Fenris have greater control over the warp? Or do the SW's just not care what other Legions think of them, so long as they have a tactical advantage over possible enemies? I'm increasingly becoming fond of the latter explanation.

 

I'm curious about the under-powered comment. They seem to be roughly equal to other legions when matched against them, which is what should be expected. I don't think being executioners of the disloyal should be interpreted as somehow being better at killing marines. It simply means they have the mindset for it. During the great crusade that would be an advantage in killing marines since it would be unthinkable in other legions, but during the Heresy? During the Heresy every Astartes is an executioner.

 

As for the Rune Priests, I think the issue is trust. The Space Wolves distrust psykers in general, but consider the loyalty of their own legion to be unquestionable. So of course *their* psykers can be trusted, it's those other psykers that are up to no good. The Space Wolves have always been depicted as being exceptionally proud of their own culture; this is a manifestation of that pride. Rune Priests are trustworthy because they're Fenrisian (by birth or adopted), full-stop. Other Librarians aren't trustworthy because they're sorcerers from (fill in the blank). In their defense, Rune Priests have one of the more unique psyker traditions. The noticeable differences between Rune Priests and other Librarians would make it easier to believe there's an actual difference between them.

[betrayer41]

It amuses me the fact that they think their warp powers comes from Fenris. It's a level of hipocrisy bordering the Templars with Astrophats and Navigators. Yeah burn the witch and loath the mutant, but these dudes here are cool. xD

 

Anyway the Executioners and what not, really never gave too much thought about it, but if I'm not mistaken, and correct me if I am wrong, Russ didn't like Fenris.I also like the fact that he played the Barbarian King role.

 

I'm not a big fan of 40k Wolves, but they need a Victory or 2 in the Heresy. So far they have been the Worf (no pun intended) of the series.

 

BTW betrayer where did you get those legs?

Kromlech sons of thor

[Sete]

They really fit well with the FW torso! Thanks.

[Iron Hands Fanatic]

Reposted from the BoP thread:

 

Yeah I fully expect that in Inferno, we'll see the Wolves being used to destroy formerly loyal forces which rebelled against the Imperium - we already know there were a number of secessionist factions which had to be put down by the Astartes - my guess is that the Wolves are the go-to Legion for this kind of stuff, hence the 'Executioners' moniker. If the Wolves took it too far and assumed their remit would also involve purging traitorous Legions, it would explain the conflation between the title and whatever happened to the two Lost Legions.

[Legatus]

I am curious how FW will treat the Space Wolves. As someone brought up earlier, there have been instances in the past where Forgeworld did a good job of reconciling the original 40K lore of the Legions with the newer (often changed) Black Library descriptions. Let's see how they tackle the Space Wolves, who in the 40K lore have been characterised more as people's heroes, standing up for the little guys, and being widely popular because of it, but often uncooperative with Imperial authorities, as opposed to the Black Library take of being terrifying to the common man, almost the exact opposite to the 40K lore, now putting off the common soldier but acting obediently as ordered.

 

I also wonder about their title as "executioners". That title came from the same mind that had described the Space Wolves as the most unhinged and terrifyingly violent of all the Legions. Off all the Legions. If he wasn't aware of the lore of the World Eaters and the Night Lords, how can he be expected to know that the Space Wolves had been one of the smallest Legions, and were thus ill suited to "take down" any of the others?

It is kind of amusing how different BL authors are "battling" about their role as "executioners", with some later authors describing it more like "yeah, that's what they call themselves", but then the original author comes back in his next book having Malcador or some other high authority re-affirm that that's what they were totally officially known for.

 

Another thing I wonder is whether or not the Space Wolves Legion will get the "Space Wolves" unit types (Blood Claws, Grey Hunters, etc.). The Ultramarines did not get the "Codex" unit types, even though the Codex doctrine in it's final form is only a few years from being established at the time of the Heresy. But I do expect Forgeworld will give the Space Wolves their own units.

 

As for "victories" in the Horus Heresy conflict, there just hadn't been much Space Wolves Heresy lore prior to the HH series. They attacked Prospero, and then they arrived late at Terra. "Collected Visions" had added a space battle against the Alpha Legion. And that was it. But then originally Horus went directly from Istvaan V to Terra, so there wasn't really any opportunity for many more decisive encounters. The Space Wolves played a bigger role in the Scouring, aggressively hunting the retreating traitor forces, and even following them into the Eye of Terror.

So, everything BL and FW are now writing about the Space Wolves is completely new, made up from scratch. And that is not allways a good thing, such as a brief throwaway account of the Space Wolves being beaten up by the World Eaters. (Although I guess that wasn't during the Heresy.)

[Baluc]

The more BL things I read the sadder the Wolves look... Just finished Wolf king, and I can see what the point of the short story should have been. But there was no emotional connection or understanding because what they were transitioning from hasn't ever been described. At this point the image of the VI is only vaguely more clear than the II and XI, because there are actual characters. Bjorn is supposed to be the future of the Wolves... but he isn't any different than Lord Gunn just filled with less nostalgia. 

[Iron Hands Fanatic]

Another thing I wonder is whether or not the Space Wolves Legion will get the "Space Wolves" unit types (Blood Claws, Grey Hunters, etc.). The Ultramarines did not get the "Codex" unit types, even though the Codex doctrine in it's final form is only a few years from being established at the time of the Heresy. But I do expect Forgeworld will give the Space Wolves their own units.

 

I hope not to be honest - all the other Legions have had nomenclature for units & titles that differ from those in the Crusade Army list, but it's never been necessary to codify that rules-wise. Sure, I expect it in the background and Legionary profiles, but considering we didn't get Word Bearers Annunake (Dreads), Salamanders Igniax (Chaplains), as well as the Raven Guard' / Night Lords' Claws and Talons enshrined in rules form, I don't know why the Wolves should.

 

It's just terminology so I don't really see the point.

[Baluc]

 

Another thing I wonder is whether or not the Space Wolves Legion will get the "Space Wolves" unit types (Blood Claws, Grey Hunters, etc.). The Ultramarines did not get the "Codex" unit types, even though the Codex doctrine in it's final form is only a few years from being established at the time of the Heresy. But I do expect Forgeworld will give the Space Wolves their own units.

 

I hope not to be honest - all the other Legions have had nomenclature for units & titles that differ from those in the Crusade Army list, but it's never been necessary to codify that rules-wise. Sure, I expect it in the background and Legionary profiles, but considering we didn't get Word Bearers Annunake (Dreads), Salamanders Igniax (Chaplains), as well as the Raven Guard' / Night Lords' Claws and Talons enshrined in rules form, I don't know why the Wolves should.

 

It's just terminology so I don't really see the point.

 

 

Pretty much, I don't even think the Wolves had a dedicated structure in that regard. Just packs and known seniority between packs. My bigger worry is going to be what units they are disallowed from taking, I've not purchase rapiers or other artillery type units for this fear. Also power armoured legion units which superseded LACAL units.  

[Atia]

The Ultramarines did not get the "Codex" unit types, even though the Codex doctrine in it's final form is only a few years from being established at the time of the Heresy

Well to be fair, you can already make all "Codex" unit types with the armylist at hand - just use veteran squads for tactical squads . Also during the time of Calth, the Codex wasn't even started yet I think.

It would make sense to have GH/BC/LF and other "classic wolf" units there, atleast from a fluff PoV. One of the traits about 40k wolves is that they "fight as Russ' wanted it". They didn't really changed that much from the Legion besides it's size (and even than, they just splitted into Space Wolves and Wolf Brothers). Atleast that's what the 40k codices always said. And thunderwolves should also be present, as the Stormrider fluff mentions "for it has ever been drawn forth by a pair of giant Thunderwolves since the time of Leman Russ". If FW *would* ignore these pieces, well it wouldn't be better than any "bad BL fiction" imo.

[Legatus]

I guess Thunderwolves and Wolf Guard are probably likely contenders for their special Legion units. Although personally I wouldn't mind if FW somehow left out the Thunderwolves.

[Flint13]

Gulliman started in on the codex idea slightly before when he meets with Aoenid Theil, post-Calth.

 

The collected engagement data from Theil's warplate's data banks and scrawled on the exterior is what really kicks Gulliman into it.

 

Strategos is the short story that goes over it.

[Sandlemad]

The Ultramarines did not get the "Codex" unit types, even though the Codex doctrine in it's final form is only a few years from being established at the time of the Heresy

Well to be fair, you can already make all "Codex" unit types with the armylist at hand - just use veteran squads for tactical squads . Also during the time of Calth, the Codex wasn't even started yet I think.

It would make sense to have GH/BC/LF and other "classic wolf" units there, atleast from a fluff PoV. One of the traits about 40k wolves is that they "fight as Russ' wanted it". They didn't really changed that much from the Legion besides it's size (and even than, they just splitted into Space Wolves and Wolf Brothers). Atleast that's what the 40k codices always said. And thunderwolves should also be present, as the Stormrider fluff mentions "for it has ever been drawn forth by a pair of giant Thunderwolves since the time of Leman Russ". If FW *would* ignore these pieces, well it wouldn't be better than any "bad BL fiction" imo.

Eh, by the M40 the wolves don't necessarily have a particularly clear idea of Russ's desires or intentions. Thinking here of their veneration of his spear in King's Ragnar books or their views and actions in Battle of the Fang. The SW are no less subject to the inevitable decay of information than any other chapter. Even in the short extract from Leman Russ that just came out, we have Russ shaking his head at one of his warriors not knowing the history behind an axe he was given. "The gaps grow, holes in the ice, greater with every summer-melt,’ the primarch said. ‘You know nothing. They remember nothing."

We already know Long Fangs (as in heavy weapon-wielding veteran cadres) don't exist due to the length of the crusade and tbh, any excuse to remove thunderwolves (hell, say they had not been 'domesticated' by the SW yet) is an instant improvement in my books.

[Iron Hands Fanatic]

I'm pretty sure someone at FW said that they wouldn't be doing Thunderwolves, but I can't remember the source

[Atia]

I'm pretty sure someone at FW said that they wouldn't be doing Thunderwolves, but I can't remember the source

That's right, *someone* said that. Yet the 40k codex pretty much says thunderwolves were there. I understand some people dislike them, but let a writer cherry-pick and ignore them isn't the right way to do imo ....

Also, they *don't* need to do any thunderwolf models, just new rider legs as upgrade kit

King's Ragnar books

Afaik, King himself said his books aren't really canon (hence some bits that are just plain wrong, like who killed Berek or the wolf priest there)

[noigrim]

Maybe SW will use their own table of powers, snow&lightning

[Corswain]

I've never minded the executioner moniker. For me, the Wolves are the guys prepared to do the job, no matter what it is.

Before the Heresy, most Legions might have baulked at orders to fire on other Astartes - Not the Wolves.

It's not that they're superior or even necessarily the best guys for the job, it's just that they will do it and do it well and without complaint where others may not.

 

I also like that there are a few Primarchs who feel that the executioner role was self-appointed. Always two sides to a coin.

[Allart01]

Underpowered?
I wouldn't say that.

Being appointed as the "Executioner" doesn't make you stronger than other Legions/Primarchs, or an unstoppable Astartes killer.

The point in the whole Horus Heresy setting is a fight among equals!

 

Talking about their battles:

Gehenna - as a World Eater, I call it a victory for my favourite Legion, but it was actually pretty much a draw. 
Both Primarchs made their point to themselves and called it a day. 

Ok, Russ was overcome by Angron one on one, but that's what you get when you trade blows with a Primarch whose ONLY real quality is being the best in close combat. 

Prospero - Yes, they had it easy because of Magnus' indecision, but they obliterated the planet, the Spireguard, 9/10 of the Thousand Sons and their Primarch's body in what, a single day?

Alaxxes -Ambushed while still recovering from Prospero.

Weregeld (planet?) - Four Traitor Legions agains them, survived

 

Being called "executioners" and having rumors about being used against the forgotten Legions does not mean that they do not have to struggle against other Astartes. 

Does that make them underpowered?

No, IMHO that makes them not-mary-sues.