Space Wolves (and Leman Russ) Identity Discussion

[Augustus]

Doubt the Night Lords, World Eaters, and Death Guard would have but outside of these three legions I think they would have paused and questioned their orders and themselves.

[Charlo]

The Wolves were one of the smaller legions correct?

 

If so I think it's fine that they are a little more specialist than the others. More than any other Astartes they are pure warriors so I quite like the executioner thing.

 

Really excited to see Inferno and their Historic Engagements section.

 

Bet they'll have some sort of weird extra box in scrambled data that alludes to them killing a legion or two :P

[apologist]

This thread is for those of us who wish to discuss in detail the role AND portrayal of the Space Wolves in the Horus Heresy. DISCLAIMER: If you don't have something constructive to say, then don't say it. Let all of us be civil and refrain from demeaning and incorrect monikers when referring to any faction.

This is both a broad and a contentious topic, so a wise proviso.

In case my post gets a little long, I'd like to add my own little preface to my answers:

• I'm approaching this without an iron in the fire, so to speak. I've no particular favouritism for any Legion; I think they've all got their own appeal.
• I like reconciling all statements, in-and-out of universe, to make something that is cohesive.
• The discussion needs to consider both the out-of-universe knowledge we bring to it, and recognise that in-universe interpretations are sometimes different.

So, where to begin? For me, part of the VIth Legion's appeal is the seeming mystery and contrariness that surrounds them: They're Wolves, but don't call them that; there are no Wolves on Fenris. They're fiercely, exclusively loyal; but flaunt their disobedience. They're victorious and boastful; yet withdrawn and sullen. Their hypocrisy in the use of psykers is sickening – but they don't use psykers. They're executioners. Just another Legion; but outside the norm. Whatever the case, they're definitely interesting.

+ Who are the VIth Legion? +

Perhaps more than any other Legion, metaphor and allegory is necessary when discussing the VIth; as is looking at the mindset of the Legion and its homeworld. Almost all the background seems to agree on one thing: that Fenris, and the Legion that makes its home there, are somehow different; somehow other.

The precise reason for this, as with so much about the Space Wolves, is skirted around; but I think that actually captures why they're so appealing as a faction. From a logical, orderly and literal mindset – that of the Imperium at large, and for the modern reader – the Space Wolves seem almost wilfully contrary. We, as readers, know that the Rune Priests are psykers. Do the VIth sincerely believe they're not? To answer this, we look at Prospero Burns, which gives us a great insight into the mindset of some groups of Fenrisians, the Ascomanni and the Balt.

From the very first, the Fenrisians seem to have very direct, practical approaches to events. They act quickly and unsentimentally (though not unfeelingly) in looking after the Upplander – there's little second-guessing, and all the individuals we see seem to act on very strict, black-and-white lines. This clearly makes sense to them; though equally, there's no missing the mixture of fear and contempt with which they hold Hauser, who has arrived uninvited as 'Maleficarum'. Their village dies around them as a result of his arrival, but the Ascomanni don't hesitate for a second to protect him.

It's an odd reaction – at least to our eyes. It seems like double-think. This fatalism and pragmatism seems to underpin their whole culture, showing up again and again throughout the novel. This brings up one of the main threads that are important to explore.

+ 'This is this and that is that' +

The pragmatism that underpins Fenrisian culture clearly makes for sharp delineations and few subtleties. An act is either courageous or foolish. Transgressions are either punished or made good. Your thread (or fate) must be followed; without deviation for how you might wish otherwise. This seems to be how Fenrisians think. Compare this with the myriad layers of meaning and interpretation that the Thousand Sons (and wider Imperium) deal with; and the struggles they have in reconciling different appraoches. With a Fenrisian's incisive, instinctive and unsentimental worldview, such struggles are meaningless.

With that mindset, you can easily see how delineations between magic – tolerated, albeit suspiciously, for its practical use – and maleficarum – unbalanced, uncontrolled and banned – can be drawn, culturally speaking. This seems odd to us, but consider the disjunct between sanctioned killing (e.g. during war) and unsanctioned killing (e.g. murder) in our own culture. Again, contrast this disarmingly simple black/white approach with the Thousand Sons complex hierarchy and 'levels' of thought.

This cultural approach to the accusation of hypocrisy helps to address a couple of points. Whatever we know from our standpoint as readers, the VIth Legion can, quite sincerely, state that their Rune Priests are quite different to other Legions' Librarians. Now, from a purely logical point of view, the Imperium might argue otherwise; but to the black-and-white mindset of the VIth Legion, their objections are not only wrong, they're nonsensical. Magic and Maleficarum are as different from one another as day and night.

+ Having it both ways +

The congitive disjunct between the Fenrisians and the rest of the Imperium helps to explain a great deal about the VIth Legion's actions – they are simply not operating quite as the rest of the Imperium does. Consider the Night of the Wolf, for example. Both sides claim it as a victory. Can this be so? Well, that entirely depends upon your point of view, and I think it's this that causes such arguments to erupt both in-universe and on a discussion forum like the Bolter & Chainsword.

Angron, for all his induced rage and brokenness, still works like the rest of the Imperium. He works on a logical, literal basis; even recognising that the Butcher's Nails make him less effective as a commander. During the events of the Night of the Wolf, he feels vindicated, as he refuses to bow before what he sees as a literal attempt to subdue and direct him. To his mindset, he wins – the Space Wolves have failed to bring him to heel, and Angron has made a point that Leman Russ cannot logically deny.

Leman Russ does not work at all this way. To him, the fight was incidental: it was the demonstration of brotherhood that was important. He was entirely willing to sacrifice his men – and himself, for that is how the uncompromising Fenrisian mindset would have it – to demonstrate to Angron that the enemies and civilians he murdered was weakening them both, and that the Nails, far from making him better at his task, were operating at odds with it.

Importantly, we can see how, from Angron's point of view, Leman Russ comes in as an antagonistic, blowhard bully, attempting to lord over Angron and subdue him – and all without the orders from Terra! Who does Leman Russ think he is?!

However, from Leman Russ' point of view, his actions completely bypass the blustering proving who's stronger. That's utterly irrelevant 'willy-waving' to him, and likely doesn't even come into his thoughts. Instead, the Wolves' actions are acting to get Angron back on with the task at hand – bringing the Imperium together. He doesn't need explicit orders from the Emperor to act this way, because it's an implicit extension of his – and Angron's – vows to the Emperor at the start of the Great Crusade.

+++

The conflict between the Thousand Sons and the Space Wolves works on a similar level, but is made more interesting because both sides are mirrors of one another. For all their mysticism, the Thousand Sons are fundamentally practical and scientific. They approach the warp with the intention of utilising it like any other resource. Far from being radicals, they are exemplars of the Imperial Truth. Rituals are broken down and stripped back to bare bones, then used like tools.

The Space Wolves, conversely, recognise the 'Underverse' as a realm of metaphor, a treacherous mirror of the real world that relies as much on appearance as practical sense. That these two legions were at odds was inevitable. Their worldviews are not simply incompatible, but contrary.

+ Black Library +

The incompatibility of the Fenrisian and wider Imperium's mindset is brought up beautifully (in my opinion) in the writing style and devices used in A Thousand Sons and Prospero Burns. In particular, approaching Prospero Burns at face value will leave you finding the Wolves' actions odd; even hypocritical. Approaching it as a Fenrisian would – as a tale meant to be read as much for atmosphere and metaphor as bald facts – gives a much richer meaning. I'd argue that Abnett encourages you to do so, through the rhythm of the book and the literary devices he deploys:

• Repetition: both turn of phrase – the 'leopard growl'; 'there are no wolves on Fenris'; 'until next winter'; 'I recognise my failing'
• Expanding events: Hawser's dream sequences gradually reveal more each time; Kasper Hawser's very name; the opening sequence as metaphor for the invasion of Prospero.
• Absence of literal explanation: Is Long Fang alive? What is the nature of the wolves? Who does Hawser meet on Terra? The Vlka Fenryka's seemingly wilful misdirection and capriciousness.
• Contrast of appearance and reality: Magnus shifting appearance belies an ultimately straightforward character who comes unstuck; while Leman Russ' outward appearance masks an ultimately unexplained and seemingly contradictory nature. The 'Horus' who appears.

The book is explicitly intended to be read alongside A Thousand Sons, and in context, the two provide wonderful contrast between each other in terms of literary style. The symbolism of the eye is a great example. Not only do we get the symbol repeated over and over in different contexts – the apotropaic eye; Hawser's wolf's eye; the Wolves' eyes of warding; Magnus' unexplained single eye – but there are no definitive explanations. It's left open.

+ The nature of truth +

I think the opening sequence serves as another great demonstration of this – it's an instant introduction to the closed world of Fenris; giving a potted explanation of what's important to the culture and working as a primer to encourage you to read the rest of the book as a Fenrisian rather than as Hawser (the playful reversal of point of view helps throw more light on this); but on another level, it's a metaphor for the Space Wolves' attack on Prospero later in the book, with the Ascommani as the Prosperans and the Balt as the Wolves. There are lots more of these 'Russian Dolls' in the book; and each time we see a seeming repetition of a theme, we get a completely different viewpoint.

Crucially, we're never told which is 'true' – the Upplander is Kasper Hawser is Ibn Ahmed Rustah ... but who is he? Ultimately, the character is an empty slate; a tool used by Leman Russ (and possibly by Magnus). He's a literary device to show the multi-layered nature of understanding; and to encourage us to see things as the Wolves do – to accept that pursuing an unfindable, definitive 'truth' is fundamentally impossible; and instead you must accept and follow your wyrd.

+ Executioners +

So, aside from being heavy going, what point am I making above? Well, if I'm right, let's look at how the Wolves are being portrayed, and see if this helps explain some actions that seem against form for the 'straightforward space vikings' (a concept that I think sells them short):

So to start off, FW as of late seems to be returning to the "executioner" label for the SW's. Is this just puff-piece praise, or is it an actual indication of the new direction FW said they were taking the SW's in?

For the reasons explained above, I think the Executioner concept is intended to be double-layered. Both metaphorical and literal. On the most basic level, they're the Legion that the Emperor unleashes on other Legions. However, this misses the strength of the concept in nailing down that it highlights who the Wolves are: namely that to be an executioner is to be permitted to kill. The term 'Sanctioned' is thrown around.

They're explicitly allowed to be 'executioners' rather than 'killers'; but this is secondary to why they are so picked out. I think the reason is that they are following the rules; playing the game – and it's this that is simultaneously their strength and weakness. The VIth Legion are loyal; which, I'd argue, is different from obedient – as say the Ultramarines or Imperial Fists are. All three of those Legions would defend the Imperium, but the Space Wolves are the ones that grasp that the conceptual existence of the Imperium is as fundamental as the physical extension of its power; something that I think is beyond the Ultramarines or Fists, who deal with practicalities and realities, not metaphor and dreams.

When reading Horus Heresy novels, SW's consistently come off as underpowered*, especially in the legion v legion conflicts that "executioners" should excel in. But given that FW seems to want to refer to SW's AS executioners, perhaps there's something going on behind the scenes to sabotage their capabilities?

The role of Executioners doesn't mean that it's all they do. They're not held in reserve as separate from the other Legions (which each seem to have their own special role in the same way). Their role as executioner may be explicit, but their implicit role is as 'Space Marines' first and foremost. For this reason, I have no problem with accepting them having a hard time actually following it through.

In short, I don't think it reflects badly on the VIth Legion that they suffer just as other Legions do in Astartes vs Astartes combat. Being an Executioner doesn't make you inherently 'better' or more worthy than the guilty party; rather it justifies what you are doing. The Space Wolves are 'mighty because they are right, not right because they are mighty', to paraphrase an underlying theme of the Horus Heresy as a whole.

Maybe Horus considered them a big enough threat that he tasked someone with intercepting or delaying supply convoys and intelligence? This would help account for the lack of armoured support the SW's had on Prospero, and maybe the bad repair their ships were in at Alaxxes and Yarrant.

Sure, on a practical level, that works. I think it gives the Wolves greater depth if such considerations can simply be taken in stride, personally.

Another topic I've always been confused by is the rather blatant hypocrisy of the SW's regarding the origination of Rune Priest psykic powers compared to the other Legion's Librarians*. Could it be that those born of Fenris have greater control over the warp? Or do the SW's just not care what other Legions think of them, so long as they have a tactical advantage over possible enemies? I'm increasingly becoming fond of the latter explanation.

I've mostly addressed my thoughts on this above, but to reiterate, I think that this seeming contradiction works rather nicely to highlight the Wolves' pragmatism (which neatly mirrors that of the Emperor, in banning the Legions' use of psykers while pragmatically retaining navigators, astorpaths etc.)

I don't think it's an inherent difference between the Wolves and the other Legions – that would smack of treating them as special snowflakes – but rather the distinction between the logical Imperium's point of view and the Wolves' more metaphorical and pragmatic worldview.

+ Oh God-Emperor a wall of text! TL;DR +

• The VIth Legion are Fenrisian, and the culture considers metaphorical truth as equal in value to literal fact.
• Many of the arguments arise from interpreting events at face value, when they're intentionally complex.
• The 'Executioner' label is literal, but this doesn't imbue the title with specific tasks or privileges.
• The fundamental strength of the Wolves is derived from their 'otherness' and the impossibility of their fitting in.

Anyway, those are my thoughts – my contribution to the fireside talk

[Zeratil]

I'm with Apologist on a lot of this, to my eye he sums up things well, although I'll throw my hat into the ring as well.

A couple of caveats of my own to put my cards on table:
The Thousand Sons are my favourite legion, and always have been. While the 40k Space Wolves have never been an SM concept or aesthetic that appeals to me as a hobbyist. So consider this as 'A Thousand Sons fan attempting to be reasonable'.

My personal view, and I think one shared by many Thousand Sons fans, is that in the 41st Millennium books and lore Thousand Sons have, until relatively recently just used as a punching bag to show how awesome Space Wolves are. Other than that they've had very little mention in books or lore, pretty much until the Ahriman trilogy and to a slightly lesser extent Talon of Horus. Not that I think this means that the position should be reversed, I don't believe having a bunch of stories where Thousand Sons easily defeat Space Wolves is any better, it just creates a bigger issue.


What do I think of Space Wolves/Russ' depiction in Horus Heresy?

 Prior to a couple of years ago I honestly didn't think there was an issue, ATS and PB to me gave both legions cool stories, and presented a battle in which one legion didn't just get flattened by another. I still think that PB and ATS are excellent books and give both legions a good showing, and also have a kind of duality with the Battle on Fenris lore - essentially, even when the defenders at a massive disadvantage attacking the homeworld of a legion, any legion, is a massive undertaking and you're going to get mauled, whatever force you are. That being said I don't like how Battle of Fenris plays out (both sides seem to suck a little to me) and ATS/PB cover the battle of Prospero very briefly in excvhange for more about the character of the legions, I think that making objective judgements on how it went down is hard. I think revisiting the discussion once Inferno is out will be useful - hopefully all the forces will seem awesome.

 I do think that it would have been good if we'd had more 'Space Wolves doing stuff' stories, I think that the depictions of the Wolves in stories like the Wolf King is reasonable given the situations the legion is depicted to have been in. Prospero hurt them badly, as attacking a Legion's homeworld should I feel. It's reasonable that coming up against a fresh force they are almost immediately on the ropes. To me this is undoubtedly a second part of Horus' plan to shatter both the Sons and the Wolves throughout this entire tragic affair - the two being - IMO two of the most dangerous legions to him (for different reasons).

 With that while what happens to the space wolves in the existing works is a reasonable interpretation of how events would play out, I do agree that the Space Wolves have only been shown, in lengthy works, to be in situations that either showed them at a disadvantage (such as Wolf King) or involved in battle that were never going to be victories for anyone (Prospero). That's unfair to Space Wolf fans I think, no faction should be winning all the time, or come from behind to win in the end despite disadvantage (especially hard in HH where there are fans on both sides of every battle) but having event upon event in the books where any faction is consistently on the receiving end of punishment, without showing some of their victories, isn't great and something that needs redress. As an example I don't like how Hunter's Moon and Thief of Revelations play off as a 'one Wolf story/one Sons story'. Ahriman and Magnus go on a cool trip across the galaxy with some warp mojitos, while some Space Wolves get shot. Not a great showing.

 My favourite story with Space Wolves in the Heresy is undoubtedly the story (can't remember the name) where the space wolves fight alongside a planet's residents as allies to defeat the xenos attacking them, and then, upon hearing that the world has no intention of joining the Imperium, reluctantly, suddenly and savagely, start bringing the world into compliance. This to me epistomises some of the idea behind...

The Wolves as Executioners.

 

  This was always going to be a tricky idea for BL and FW to pull off. Personally I've always been on the side of this being much more about something Russ and the Wolves are prepared to do, no questions asked, rather than something they are better at than another legion might be. Partly I think that's a cooler idea than giving Space Wolves some lore/rules advantage against Space Marines, partly because doing so wouldn't be great for 30k games. I think that of all the Primarchs, Russ is the most personally loyal to the Emperor (whereas Dorn is the most loyal to the Imperium, which I see as potentially a big difference). He would do whatever the Emperor commands, even if it was to his distatse, something I feel he asks of his sons, as we see in Howl of the Hearthworld. My personal take is that initially the Wolves weren't going to be the enforcer/executioner legion, Betrayal seems to indicate that this role was initially going to be the Warhounds. My supposition is that something about the Emperor's and Russ' relationship convinced the Emperor that Russ and his legion would be better for the unpleasant, but necessary role. Something certainly confirmed when Angron was found, 'unsuitable' doesn't begin to cover it!

 My guess is that this puts me at odds with many Wolves fans who feel that the executioner label should result in some lore or rules advantage against other space marines - perhaps similar to the Minotaurs in 40k. I disagree, I think that Russ and his legion are better than the Minotaurs, they're not simply the High Lords axe, sent at whomever they choose. The wolves earn their reputation as executioners, and make it their own, not through slavish obedience, but through loyalty and the acceptance that there will always be tasks that are hard, but still must be done, and done with all the effort and savagery of any other battle or crusade compliance. I don't think any other Legion or Primarch has that attitude. I feel the answer to why was Russ of all Primarchs sent to Prospero is that many other Primarchs would have refused to destroy another legion, even given the damage that Magnus had done and the Edict being broken, or if they did, they wouldn't do a thorough job, they would be held back by the belief that what they were doing was wrong, dishonourable, a betrayal of an otherwise loyal legion. Russ would never let those factors get in the way, even if he believed the wrong call had been made, to him and the Wolves any distaste or reluctance plays second string to the commands of the Emperor, he's the all-father, he's their ultimate liege and he will do what is best for Mankind, even if others don't see it.

Rune Priests vs Librarians vs Sorcerers

 This one is tricky as the lore has changed on this since it was first laid down, some of that's down to the old 'everything is canon, not everything is true' adage of GW lore, but there does seem to have been a metaphysical shift from librarians being distinctly different from sorcerers (based around some element of personal power versus pacted power) to it all being 'sorcery' to some degree. The latter day fluff, essentially of 'all psykers are using the warp, and all risk the perils of doing so' with questions of degree and control being the deciding factor, makes the older lore less usable as justification. Personally I prefer the newer version, most likely because I prefer the idea that the Thousand Sons didn't do anything especially wrong by delving father into the study and use of warpcraft than any other legion. I like that there's no metaphysical 'line' that was crossed beyond which they were sorcerers and therefore bad. They went further than anyone else, and were not nearly as knowledgeable as they believed themselves to be and as Yesughei notes in the Scars book what they did was unwise to a massive degree, and spoke massively to the academic arrogance of the the Sons and Magnus. I also come down on the side of Rune Priests not being 'safer' psykers than anyone else because of some connection to Fenris. Much like the Stormseers the Rune Priests are followers of a tradition, a tradition that ultimately results in them not delving as deeply into warpcraft as the Sons did, and puts them consequentially at less risk (as it turns out once the Chaos Gods reveal their plans). One edge they do have is runecraft, I like the aside in one of the Wolf works that talks a little about runecraft being incredibly difficult and long practised art on Fenris, rather than, as Ahriman dismisses it in ATS, 'a bunch of fetishes and charms'.

 Ultimately at the time of the Heresy I think both the Sons and the Wolves are completely wrong about the warp and the nature of psykers, this is part of the duality of the legions, they mirror each other in many ways with their curses and flaws in thinking. As the 6th ed GK codex revels 'it's all sorcery in the end'. Psykers should always be dangerous, and no-one human should get a free pass on using them in total, or even much reduced safety.

Rune Priests and Nikea

  This is a question without an answer I feel, we don't know enough about why the Emperor made the decision he did, seemingly, according to the lore, an extremely elegant defence of the Librarius from multiple people. We've heard conflcting theories from different characters in the heresy, but never the Emperor's own thinking, or even Malcadors (except a quick aside wondering he and Emps had taken the wrong course long before Nikea). Certainly the Wolves don't consider themselves bound by the edict, and believe (possibly with the exception of Russ) that their powers are not the same as those the Sons use, for whatever reason. That's fine to me, it's okay for a legion to be completely and utterly wrong about something, especially when it comes to psykers and the warp (the Sons and other Librarians are very arguably equally incorrect, if not in the source of individuals power then in the intelligence and malevolence of the warp). Something that the wolves, and their talk of maleficarum, are correct about, if in a folklore/received wisdom tradition rather than a scholarly one.

[Jackalwolf]

I'm a long time Space Wolves aficionado, but the one issue I have with my legion is the destruction of Prospero. The Thousand Sons were loyal sons and Magnus was trying his best, and their destruction is due to the machinations of Horus, not the order of the Emperor, whom asked Russ to bring back Magnus.

 

That said I do believe there is an intrinsic difference between the sorcerers of Prospero and the Rune Priests:

 

1. It has been stated as canon that Magnus did a deal with Tzeentch to prevent the flesh change from destroying his legion, which costed him his eye. The legion was doomed from that moment.

2. The Thousand Sons did delve deeper than anyone, and they cared not from the source as long as it was knowledge. Despite their virtue, that is a slippery road to damnation.

3. My personal interpretation is that there are different sources in the Warp, since it's an ocean and not of all is controlled by the four Chaos gods, and some disciplines directly pool from the water body of the Chaos gods. Since the deal of Magnus with Tzeentch, I am quite positive this current was in great supply to the Thousand Sons. Furthermore, Rune Priests and Storm Priests from White Scars do seem to limit themselves to very specific, particular sources in the Warp. It can very well be that, since the Warp is the reflection of the emotions of the real universe, the Rune Priests do ONLY feed in the emotions emanating from Fenris and it's people, therefore having a "safe" body of water in the warp from where to source their power. Same with the Scars and Chogoris.

 

If that's the case, I do hope that Rune Priests only have access to their own discipline and not any of the mainstay ones from the librarius. I would find that coherent and valid.

[Runefyre]

 

When reading Horus Heresy novels, SW's consistently come off as underpowered*, especially in the legion v legion conflicts that "executioners" should excel in. But given that FW seems to want to refer to SW's AS executioners, perhaps there's something going on behind the scenes to sabotage their capabilities?

The role of Executioners doesn't mean that it's all they do. They're not held in reserve as separate from the other Legions (which each seem to have their own special role in the same way). Their role as executioner may be explicit, but their implicit role is as 'Space Marines' first and foremost. For this reason, I have no problem with accepting them having a hard time actually following it through.

First off, thanks Apologist  and Zeratil for your very thoughtful posts. I completely agree with pretty much everything both of you said, except the little quote from Apologist I've quoted above.

 

As a personal note, I'm completely cured of the whole "Wolves need to be better" mantra. However, you're making light of how the Wolves are consistently portrayed as the underdogs (pun unintended) in most the books* they're in. In Prospero Burns (and A Thousand Sons) I got the distinct impression is that it's the Custodes and SoS who are the main threats to the Tsons forces. I am not alone in that opinion. Not to mention that Magnus sabotaged his own legion by shutting down the orbital defence stations and not even taking to the battlefield until the end. There's so many exceptions to the Battle of Prospero that it leaves the Wolves heavy casualties a little hollow and give the impression of underachievement. It's also a mystery how the Wolves fleet is in bad repare at Yarrant when there was no void battle at Prospero.

 

In Hunter's Moon the watch-pack is pure Alpha Legion fodder. Even Zeratil mentioned this.

 

In Wolf King the SW's face a battle similar to the White Scars in Scars, yet Russ requires the aid of some unknown Dark Angels in order to turn the tables on the AL.

 

I'm sure there can be legitimate reasons for all these points, but considering this pretty much sums up all of the current HH SW literature, it's a little depressing.

 

 

*A Thousand Sons, Prospero Burns, Hunter's Moon, Wolf King

[apologist]

Great post by Zeratil; particularly the note that 'we don't know enough about why the Emperor made the decision he did', and that 'it would have been good if we'd had more 'Space Wolves doing stuff' stories'. I don't have much to add to these pertient points beyond echoing them

+++

Runefyre; thanks for raising the subject! As we've both mentioned, it's one that often raises people's hackles for a number of reasons, so it's great to see some reasoned debate.

You note that I'm:

making light of how the Wolves are consistently portrayed as the underdogs (pun unintended) in most the books* they're in.

Taking another look at my post, I think that's a fair objection – part of that was simply realising quite how long my post was getting(!), but I didn't intend to gloss over the point, so let's have another look.

You are certainly right that we don't see many successes that involve only the Space Wolves. Beyond the (awesome) assault on Olamic Quietude in Prospero Burns, there are few setpieces in the Horus Heresy series where we see how the Vlka Fenryka achieve victory; instead, there are lots of stories of them succeeding only partially, or winning pyrrhic victories. I think there are a few reasons for this, part of which is that the Wolves historically had a small role in the general Horus Heresy, and that other Legions more often have the role of the protagonists in the novels in order to advance the broader story.

I don't want to put words in your mouth, so please tell if I'm mistaken, but am I right in saying that what you object to is not so much that the Space Wolves have an underdog status, as that they're portrayed as underachieving? For example, the broad strokes of Prospero had the Space Wolves destroying the Thousand Sons; but in detail, the newer stories add nuance: the Sons of Horus, Sisters of Silence and Adeptus Custodes seem to be doing the donkey work, leaving the Space Wolves broken and hardly covered in glory.

If that's the case, I can certainly see the objection; particularly when taken against the broader series, where we don't see any 'clean' victories for the Wolves alone. I think raising the point is fair, and symptomatic of Zeratil's point that we simply don't see much of them directly. In short, we only see the Rout en masse during the critical moments – and due to how the story is unfolding, they're often appearing as on the back foot; or acting under orders, rather than with their genuine enthusiasm behind the effort.

I'm not really sure what the answer is to that; beyond that the Wolves have to serve the broader story, like all the other Legions. A similar objection could be levelled at the portrayal of the Iron Hands, for example. In many of their stories, they end up beaten and broken – and often entirely through their own fault or lack of foresight. The flip side of this, of course, is that being the underdog gives more options for dramatic, engaging stories. Consider how awesome Bion Henricos in Little Horus is, and all he does 'on-screen' is get stabbed However, all of his threat, menace and capability is suggested through what's not made explicit, through Aximand's actions and respect.

Similarly, I think there are some examples when we see the Space Wolves in a good light – the Watch Pack in Unremembered Empire, for example, has a critical role in defending the innocent Euten against the Night Haunter; and more generally, it's clear that the Space Wolves have a general reputation for loyalty and service. We often see this only second-hand, or mocked through the eyes of others (like the antagonistic World Eaters); but from a neutral standpoint, I think the Wolves during the Great Crusade and Horus Heresy are obviously respected and have a well-deserved reputation. Consider the jovial reaction in Horus Rising to the question 'who would win?' for another example.

On a general note, I think the BL and FW authors are very good at keeping things balanced. Astartes combat is generally brutally even-handed, unless one side is able to weight things in their favour – Calth, Isstvan etc. – or in a situation where their particular specialism helps. For example, when Bjorn's pack boards the Alpha Legion vessels, the Space Wolves beat the Alpha Legion one-on-one.

Wolf King is a good example of the broader point: and that is that the Space Wolves get results. Even surrounded and in the Alpha Legion's trap, they survive to fight another day. Prospero Burns and A Thousand Sons emphasise over and over again quite how suicidal an assault on a Legion homeworld would be – but the Wolves are victorious.

+++

On a broader note, I think the Wolves are in a bit of a difficult position out-of-universe. Their 41st Millennium iteration has historically been very popular, for fairly obvious reasons – their straightforward, hard-fighting, honourable demeanour is one that has great appeal – and that's given them a loyal, (and often) vocal fanbase. In turn, I think that's caused a bit of a backlash against them, which is a shame; they're a great faction with potential for a lot of interesting stories.

However, this shouldn't cause dismay to a loyal Wolf – after all, the VIth like it best when they're left to their own devices and underestimated

[Zeratil]

I'm a long time Space Wolves aficionado, but the one issue I have with my legion is the destruction of Prospero. The Thousand Sons were loyal sons and Magnus was trying his best, and their destruction is due to the machinations of Horus, not the order of the Emperor, whom asked Russ to bring back Magnus.

 

That said I do believe there is an intrinsic difference between the sorcerers of Prospero and the Rune Priests:

 

1. It has been stated as canon that Magnus did a deal with Tzeentch to prevent the flesh change from destroying his legion, which costed him his eye. The legion was doomed from that moment.

2. The Thousand Sons did delve deeper than anyone, and they cared not from the source as long as it was knowledge. Despite their virtue, that is a slippery road to damnation.

3. My personal interpretation is that there are different sources in the Warp, since it's an ocean and not of all is controlled by the four Chaos gods, and some disciplines directly pool from the water body of the Chaos gods. Since the deal of Magnus with Tzeentch, I am quite positive this current was in great supply to the Thousand Sons. Furthermore, Rune Priests and Storm Priests from White Scars do seem to limit themselves to very specific, particular sources in the Warp. It can very well be that, since the Warp is the reflection of the emotions of the real universe, the Rune Priests do ONLY feed in the emotions emanating from Fenris and it's people, therefore having a "safe" body of water in the warp from where to source their power. Same with the Scars and Chogoris.

 

If that's the case, I do hope that Rune Priests only have access to their own discipline and not any of the mainstay ones from the librarius. I would find that coherent and valid.

I agree with 1 and 2 (with some slight caveat of the TS not knowing of the Chaos Gods) certainly. Three I think is a bit off the mark, at least in the Heresy. My impression is that a psyker's power is manifested through their own predilections and psyche. For the Heresy sons that's separated into the Cults, which correspond to the 'primary' lores we know in 6th/7th edition 40k from the Rubric. I see that as a tradition, started by Magnus, Sanguinius and the Khan, the teachings of which survive into the Imperium into the 41st millenium. There is something cardinal about those disciplines as well though, as other races such as eldar and even daemons, use them as well as the Imperium. Other, lesser known traditions have resulted in other disciplines, such as the 40k chapter specific ones. I tend to think of their powers as offshoots of the main disciplines (or combinations of them) with that factions own philosophy attached. To me it's the philosophy, rather than any 'source' of power that is the difference. Both Stormseers and Rune Priests are more cautious with their power and more limited compared to the Sons, who are both willing to go further into study of the warp and possibly have more innate connection to it through their recruitment practices and geneseed. I don't think in the Heresy the Sons are calling on Tzeentch's power directly, not in the same way that they are in 40k, where many have accepted and even embraced the 'gifts' Tzeentch offers. As mentioned a lot of psychic stuff seems to be what you bring into it, be it emotions, psyche, tradition - but I don't think it's as simple as 'lie back and think of Fenris'. The danger however, is there for everyone, the more you use the power, especially, it seems, in the heat of battle or out of desperation, the more dangerous it is, but at the end of the day the Perils of the Warp chart is the same for everyone. The Sons are just throwing more dice more often, convinced that their superior mental discipline and training in things such as the ennumerations will protect them. I assume that it does, but clearly not as well or as much as they thought.

 

 

 

Rune, like Apologist my post was getting long, but yes, I definitely think that while the stories we've had about the wolves are reasonable, they more than many legions have very few sources that show the Rout of to the best they can be, which is a shame and something I hope we see changed. Maybe even in the new Russ book. There are other legions who have been shown to be the underdogs certainly. But I feel that the Ravenguard, Iron Hands and Salamanders have all had awesome stories about how they fight back against Horus. Sure they can't do so in great numbers but all have cool moments of them learning how to fight back. Astartes like Meduson are an excellent example of how the Iron Hands, not traditionally a lefion favouring guerrilla warfare, nonetheless adapt and strike back against their enemies in adversity. The Wolves haven't really had that, we've just not seen much of them standing on their own. I think the same with the Sons to be honest, but they have even less written of them at the moment, so while they've appeared less, they haven't had as serious an imbalance in how they're appearing in the books. 

[Jarl Kjaran Coldheart]

Guys, let me say when you are posting such quality responses, the length of the post is immaterial.

 

I really like the direction and attitude of this post.

[Huggtand]

Apologist and Zeratil - you nailed my thoughts much better than I can express myself

I have been a space wolves fan since -88 and the thing I really like with the pieces we have now from BL is that they have given the wolves an own culture/flavor/feel that is really fitting. Not better than anybody else but different. And that without going for the vikings in space or wolfy wolfy wolfy.... This is the best incarnation I have seen this far

As an archaeologist (educated) I particularly like the right amount of old norse culture that the actually got in there. Especially in PB witch is basically in the style of an Islandic saga.

As for underdogs, I haven’t really thought of the wolves in those terms. They are good stories and that’s what matters. We also have lots of good and interesting space wolves characters in many other sagas

[Leif Bearclaw]

Prior to a couple of years ago I honestly didn't think there was an issue, ATS and PB to me gave both legions cool stories, and presented a battle in which one legion didn't just get flattened by another. I still think that PB and ATS are excellent books and give both legions a good showing, and also have a kind of duality with the Battle on Fenris lore - essentially, even when the defenders at a massive disadvantage attacking the homeworld of a legion, any legion, is a massive undertaking and you're going to get mauled, whatever force you are. That being said I don't like how Battle of Fenris plays out (both sides seem to suck a little to me) and ATS/PB cover the battle of Prospero very briefly in excvhange for more about the character of the legions, I think that making objective judgements on how it went down is hard. I think revisiting the discussion once Inferno is out will be useful - hopefully all the forces will seem awesome.

And yet, ATS still found time, amongst all it's character work, for many large scenes of the Sons ripping apart the Wolves in droves. The only times I can recall Sons ever really struggling is when they go up against Russ, SoS, Custodes or their own perils of the warp. That's my biggest objection to the book, the Wolves are nothing more than red shirts. They never come across as dangerous (except vs the Spireguard, but they don;t really count ).

Whereas in PB, we see very little of the battle from the other side, there's some squashing of mortals, a big list of dead Wolves, the Wulfen counter attack, and then we're back to the Hawser show. It's akin to telling the story of the Battle of Minas Tirith and Pelennor Fields in LOTR, but instead of the Rohirrim charge, the fall of the Witch King and the Army of the Dead, we focus entirely on one squad on Gondor Soldiers and their street fight with a Troll. It may well be a very tense, well told story, buit it's 100% not what I bought the book to see.

Which is why I rate ATS as so much better than PB, it actually delivers on what it promised.

I don't want to put words in your mouth, so please tell if I'm mistaken, but am I right in saying that what you object to is not so much that the Space Wolves have an underdog status, as that they're portrayed as underachieving? For example, the broad strokes of Prospero had the Space Wolves destroying the Thousand Sons; but in detail, the newer stories add nuance: the Sons of Horus, Sisters of Silence and Adeptus Custodes seem to be doing the donkey work, leaving the Space Wolves broken and hardly covered in glory.

Absolutely. This gets even worse with the apparent changes in numbers (outlined here http://www.bolterandchainsword.com/topic/322617-apparent-changes-in-the-hardback-volume-of-a-thousand-sons/ ). If FW follow through with this retcon, it can only make the Wolves look even worse (not counting the rumoured numbers of the Wolves being smaller than the RG pre Prospero, despite what FW themselves wrote in Massacre, which also s me right off). The Wolves had essentially their full force, SoS, Custodes, and the Sons were somewhat hobbled, yet this minority of the XV still gutted the VI (it certainly seems like we can expect higher losses than the IHs took at Istvaan, though of course, no lost Primarch).

Also, I actually think this change hurts the Sons as well. Prospero is a defining moment for the Legion, and most of them weren't even there? Seriously?

[Aspiringchaoschampion]

On the sorcerors vs librarians thing

I prefere to think of it as a librarian will take a very small portion of the warp making them relatively safe however a sorceror will take alot more power and as a result their spells be stronger but more dangerous

[Zeratil]

Prior to a couple of years ago I honestly didn't think there was an issue, ATS and PB to me gave both legions cool stories, and presented a battle in which one legion didn't just get flattened by another. I still think that PB and ATS are excellent books and give both legions a good showing, and also have a kind of duality with the Battle on Fenris lore - essentially, even when the defenders at a massive disadvantage attacking the homeworld of a legion, any legion, is a massive undertaking and you're going to get mauled, whatever force you are. That being said I don't like how Battle of Fenris plays out (both sides seem to suck a little to me) and ATS/PB cover the battle of Prospero very briefly in excvhange for more about the character of the legions, I think that making objective judgements on how it went down is hard. I think revisiting the discussion once Inferno is out will be useful - hopefully all the forces will seem awesome.

And yet, ATS still found time, amongst all it's character work, for many large scenes of the Sons ripping apart the Wolves in droves. The only times I can recall Sons ever really struggling is when they go up against Russ, SoS, Custodes or their own perils of the warp. That's my biggest objection to the book, the Wolves are nothing more than red shirts. They never come across as dangerous (except vs the Spireguard, but they don;t really count ).

Whereas in PB, we see very little of the battle from the other side, there's some squashing of mortals, a big list of dead Wolves, the Wulfen counter attack, and then we're back to the Hawser show. It's akin to telling the story of the Battle of Minas Tirith and Pelennor Fields in LOTR, but instead of the Rohirrim charge, the fall of the Witch King and the Army of the Dead, we focus entirely on one squad on Gondor Soldiers and their street fight with a Troll. It may well be a very tense, well told story, buit it's 100% not what I bought the book to see.

Which is why I rate ATS as so much better than PB, it actually delivers on what it promised.

I don't want to put words in your mouth, so please tell if I'm mistaken, but am I right in saying that what you object to is not so much that the Space Wolves have an underdog status, as that they're portrayed as underachieving? For example, the broad strokes of Prospero had the Space Wolves destroying the Thousand Sons; but in detail, the newer stories add nuance: the Sons of Horus, Sisters of Silence and Adeptus Custodes seem to be doing the donkey work, leaving the Space Wolves broken and hardly covered in glory.

Absolutely. This gets even worse with the apparent changes in numbers (outlined here http://www.bolterandchainsword.com/topic/322617-apparent-changes-in-the-hardback-volume-of-a-thousand-sons/ ). If FW follow through with this retcon, it can only make the Wolves look even worse (not counting the rumoured numbers of the Wolves being smaller than the RG pre Prospero, despite what FW themselves wrote in Massacre, which also s me right off). The Wolves had essentially their full force, SoS, Custodes, and the Sons were somewhat hobbled, yet this minority of the XV still gutted the VI (it certainly seems like we can expect higher losses than the IHs took at Istvaan, though of course, no lost Primarch).

Also, I actually think this change hurts the Sons as well. Prospero is a defining moment for the Legion, and most of them weren't even there? Seriously?

To your first point I think you're right, ATS and PB as a whole don't seem to give Space Wolves much in the way of cool battle moments on Prospero. I'm not certain that's the point of the two books, as you say both are character pieces. However ATS certainly does have Ahriman, Hathor Maat, even Kalophis and Phosis T'kar (sucks to be them) having cool moments showing off the reasons they're considered the most powerful psykers in the legion. PB doesn't, as I recall, give the same moment to the Wolves. Part of this I think is the slight difference in their stories, for the Wolves its a solemn, necessary duty even with their disturst, even hatred of the Sons. For the Sons themselves it's the valiant fight of legion that considers itself (and arguably is - despite grave mistakes) a loyal legion against an unjust fate, depending on their/your own pov of course. The sorts of scenes we see in ATS fits that theme perhaps more than similar scenes for the Wolves. Maybe it doesn't really fit either, given that the most recent BL lore, which is supposed to be the most accurate, tells it all as a Greek tragedy where both sides are in the right in their own way and neither are the heroes, caught up in the manipulations of others (Horus, Tzeentch and his shapeshifting/manipulative servants). From that perspective perhaps the real flaw is that the two books don't explicitly show the manipulation, which is left obscure (as in the case of the daemonic imposter Amon at Nikea) and who really was watching through Hawser at the end. Of course part of the suspense is that those questions are left largely unanswered. I would like to know how much of a hand Horus/Erebus or the other traitors had in the whole thing though...Sorry, may have wandered a bit there.

As for your second point I would consider it a...point of concern for me. I can totally see where your coming from though. I'm waiting on Inferno to make a judgment, until I have it in my hands to see what the total numbers and casualty have changed to, and how the battle is described*. I'll admit to a certain apprehension but I feel that Alan Bligh did justice to both the Word Bearers and Ultramarines in Tempest. He's certainly shown himself to be an excellent writer of this kind of difficult my legion/your legion stuff. The best GW/FW have by far I think.

The numbers thing is complicated, I think in the coming months we'll see some clarifications for the Sons. I get that the original legion number of 10,000 wasn't going to work for the narrative. Judging by the Ahriman books and the Black Legion trilogy there's a lot more than 1000 TS by M41, having only 1200 total at the end of ATS, with little possibility of recruiting more as it stands, is also difficult given that we have Terra to get through as well. As for the Wolves numbers my understanding was that a long time ago they were one of the largest legions, and had a large number of compliances**. About the time of the Visions of Heresy - which was supposed to be definitive at the time - they went down to around the average size, later clarified in Betrayal to be about 100,000 with the Wolves being slightly over that. Now it seems they're lower than that, at least at the time of the heresy (given that the legion numbers fluctuate massively in the GC). I don't really have an opinion on that. The Sons were always supposed to be one of the two smallest legions, so I guess a legions numbers have never mattered that much to me except as an excuse to run massive squads of Iron Warriors into the guns of my enemies (always more of them).

*The word from the open day was that the Sons now have part of a Forgeworld on their side of the battle, which evens things a little, and that when the Sons decide ':cuss it, burn everyone with mind bullets' the backlash turns Prospero into a psychic hellhole, it's reasonable to assume that the entire planet turning into some sort of psychic storm would inflict casualties of its own.

** This has always been an issue because too many legions are trying to stand on the 'most or nearly most compliances' hill. Sons of Horus, Ultramarines, Dark Angels and Word Bearers off the top of my head are all supposed to have done huge numbers of them. SoH are undoubtedly top but a lot of legions seem to be vying for the next couple of places. Space Wolves seem to have dropped off their list with the numbers clarifications, and I totally understand if that annoys their fans. Much like the numbers though it's never been something I personally pay much attention to - of course the Sons seem to have climbed to the top of the 'bloodless compliances' hill, either through diplomacy, dirty psychic tricks or otherwise. So I'm certainly biased in that regard.

[Leif Bearclaw]

To your first point I think you're right, ATS and PB as a whole don't seem to give Space Wolves much in the way of cool battle moments on Prospero. I'm not certain that's the point of the two books, as you say both are character pieces. However ATS certainly does have Ahriman, Hathor Maat, even Kalophis and Phosis T'kar (sucks to be them) having cool moments showing off the reasons they're considered the most powerful psykers in the legion. PB doesn't, as I recall, give the same moment to the Wolves. Part of this I think is the slight difference in their stories, for the Wolves its a solemn, necessary duty even with their disturst, even hatred of the Sons. For the Sons themselves it's the valiant fight of legion that considers itself (and arguably is - despite grave mistakes) a loyal legion against an unjust fate, depending on their/your own pov of course. The sorts of scenes we see in ATS fits that theme perhaps more than similar scenes for the Wolves. Maybe it doesn't really fit either, given that the most recent BL lore, which is supposed to be the most accurate, tells it all as a Greek tragedy where both sides are in the right in their own way and neither are the heroes, caught up in the manipulations of others (Horus, Tzeentch and his shapeshifting/manipulative servants). From that perspective perhaps the real flaw is that the two books don't explicitly show the manipulation, which is left obscure (as in the case of the daemonic imposter Amon at Nikea) and who really was watching through Hawser at the end. Of course part of the suspense is that those questions are left largely unanswered. I would like to know how much of a hand Horus/Erebus or the other traitors had in the whole thing though...Sorry, may have wandered a bit there.

I'd actually say it's a bit simpler than that imo, not that I disagree with most what you;re saying here (though if this is one pie Horus could have his fingers in without the stink of Erebus, that'd be grand ). You're right both ATS and PB are character pieces, and following Ahriman in ATS we both get character stuff with him and a decent look at the Sons overall, including the showdown at Prospero. Whereas PB is Hawser's story. It's about a guy watching the Wolves rather than being about the Wolves themselves. That's the root cause of most of my beef with that book. The lack of epic fights and badass moments for the Wolves isn't really due to the solemness of their duty, it's because the book isn't actually about them.

[Huggtand]

That's the root cause of most of my beef with that book. The lack of epic fights and badass moments for the Wolves isn't really due to the solemness of their duty, it's because the book isn't actually about them.

Personally I like that PB isn´t about the grand epic fights, then it would just be a generic BL book as many other are. PB is special and great just because we see how the wolves think and behave through Kasper’s eyes. He is the normality that the wolves can differ from and if legionaries was the eyes in the main story (like many other books) the wolves would not stand out in the way they do now.

Its off course down to personal preference but I like the low key storytelling and really dont mind that the wolves is not superheroes compared to TS. It makes their loalty and duty even worth more

[Zeratil]

I think Leif is right that in PB the balance goes a little too far the wrong way. I really like books that have both a human and astartes viewpoint. ATS does this well, the gold standard is probably the ADB's Night Lords trilogy. It's hard to write a good book solely from an astartes POV. It often fails to get across how different they are. Having both POVs, and using them well to convey or see different things is the approach I enjoy reading the most.

[Terminus]

When reading Horus Heresy novels, SW's consistently come off as underpowered*, especially in the legion v legion conflicts that "executioners" should excel in.

This old chestnut? Yes, they styled themselves as the Emperor's Executioners, who would even bear their teeth at a brother's throat at the Emperor's command, a viewpoint Russ later recanted (leading to the rabble-rousing 'yous not da boss o'me' attitude of the 40K wolves ). And yes, other Legions wouldn't mind stabbing their brothers either, but unlike they wolves they would go outside of their mandate. So Russ had to be manipulated into unleashing total war on Prospero, otherwise he would have complied with his initial orders and brought Magnus back. Kurze or Angron wouldn't need manipulation to go hog-wild.

@ Apologist: great post. It both deepened my understanding of this Legion, and stoked the embers of hatred into a raging inferno. Well done.

Regarding the different philosophies on the use of the Warp (it's all sorcery at the end after all), I've posted this a couple of times, but my favorite passage remains one from Scars or Brotherhood of the Storm, where the Stormseer is explaining the differences in philosophy.

Basically the warp is a poisoned cup of knowledge offered by a stranger. The Wolf would kick the cup over and curse the stranger. The Son would gulp it down greedily and demand more. The Scar would take a polite sip and be on his way.

[Legatus]

As for the Wolves numbers my understanding was that a long time ago they were one of the largest legions, and had a large number of compliances**.

(...)

** This has always been an issue because too many legions are trying to stand on the 'most or nearly most compliances' hill. Sons of Horus, Ultramarines, Dark Angels and Word Bearers off the top of my head are all supposed to have done huge numbers of them. SoH are undoubtedly top but a lot of legions seem to be vying for the next couple of places. Space Wolves seem to have dropped off their list with the numbers clarifications, and I totally understand if that annoys their fans.

 

 

Back in 2nd Edition the Space Wolves had been described as a smaller Legion, explaining why the Legion had been divided into only two Chapters.

 

"The Space Wolves were never a very large Legion and so were divided only once, creating the ill-fated Wolfbrothers Chapter."

- 2nd Edition Codex Space Wolves, p. 9

 

 

Regarding "who did what the most", since 2nd Edition the Dark Angels Codices tell the story of "the Lion and the Wolf", and state that Leman Russ did not like Lion El'Jonson very much because only Jonson and Horus had a greater number of victories that him.

 

"If Jonson was quiet he was also brave and a mighty leader of men. During the Great Crusade only he and Horus achieved a greater tally of victories than Russ. Russ, ever concerned with his honour and good name, and ever keen to tell the noble saga of his deeds, found that exasperating."

- 2nd Edition Codex Angels of Death, p. 67

 

The same is repeated in the 3rd Edition Dark Angels Index Astartes article and the 4th Edition Codex Dark Angels (p. 20). It is no longer as definitively stated in the 6th Edition Codex Dark Angels, now merely stating that Jonson had more victories than Russ (p. 9), and is not mentioned in the 7th Edition Codex Dark Angels either.

 

It is worth noting that the Space Wolves Codices since 2nd Edition have not made that statement at all, and have instead given a slightly different account for the feud between Jonson and Russ, putting the blame more on the Dark Angels and their actions, rather than Russ' impetuousness. In the Dark Angels accounts, Russ initially disliked Jonson because he had more victories than him, and later during a battle Jonson defeated the tyrant Russ had sworn to defeat, which prompted Russ to attack Jonson. In the Space Wolves account, the two Legions were fighting side by side when suddenly and without notice the Dark Angels left position to advance, leaving the Space Wolves' flank exposed to a punishing attack from the enemy, killing many Wolves. That is why Leman Russ was enraged and attacked Jonson.

 

 

Since 2nd Edition there have been a number of sources attributing the greatest number of liberated worlds to the Ultramarines. Originally the 2nd Edition Codex Ultramarines (p. 12), but then repeated in the 5th Edition Codex Space Marines (p. 13), the 6th Edition WH40K Rulebook (p. 187) and most recently the 7th Edition WH40K Rulebook (Space Marines Chapters description).

A contesting claim had been made once, in the 3rd Edition Luna Wolves Index Astartes article, claiming that it had been them who had liberated the most worlds.

 

The 5th Horus Heresy book from Forgeworld, 'Tempest', states that "by some records" Roboute Guilliman had liberated the most worlds (p. 79).

[Marshal Rohr]

Identity is a subjective concept that has a broad spectrum of applications in the real world. Your identity is determined personally (I am French, or I am Buddhist). It's an indicator relative to other people to let them know your personal 'team' and typically carries a connotation of a specific set of morals and beliefs related to that specific idenetity politic.

 

To discuss the space wolves identity, you've got to start with those basic principals because it says more about how the space wolves view themselves and the universe than any objective truth or empirical fact. All to often these conversations become 'wolves are executioners because a book said so' and 'nuh uh because Night Lords and World Eaters'. Both sides are correct and both sides are wrong, based on the context of the conversation.

 

If the context is 'how do the wolves view the universe?' Then inarguably they see themselves as executioners and make choices and decisions colored by that identity. If the context is 'which legion can defeat any other legion?' Then inarguably the answer is 'any legion can defeat any legion at any given time based on the circumstances of the encounter'. This is perfectly illustrated by Wolf King and Night of the Wolf.

 

In universe, the emperor engineered an identity into each legion for a specific purpose, essentially trapping each legion into a world view that ultimately resulted in the civil war. This happens because once an identity is unleashed and allowed to develop, it moves beyond the control of the movement that birthed it. This is evidenced countless times in real world history. Nationalism is used to unify a people and within a hundred years it twists into something darker and more insidious.

 

In the case of the space wolves, by the time of the Horus heresy, their identity had two hundred years of self reinforcing growth with each new generation of legionaries. While they may truly have been the emperors executioners in the early crusade by the emperors command, by 000.M31 Russ and the legionaries who had absorbed the identity of executioner were perpetuating this identity by their own volition, without any input from the Emperor himself because the wolves believed such was their purpose. Again, this is evidenced by Angron calling Russ out for the Night of the Wolf and Russ acknowledging the Emperor hadn't actually told him to sanction Angron. Russ chose to do that because his identity told him it was his place. Prospero Burns is countless examples of thenwolves confirming their own identity to Hawser, without any outside objective empirical evidence that it was true or untrue and this reaches its conclusion when's Russ is having his existential crisis in wolf king.

[Kol Saresk]

I hatte tags. I may or may not repost it. Basically, Executioner means "someone who executes; especially by putting someone to death" and I think the Emperor meant it for the Wolves to be his personal right hand while Russ took it to be the guy who puts down all the problem people.

[Zeratil]

 

As for the Wolves numbers my understanding was that a long time ago they were one of the largest legions, and had a large number of compliances**.

(...)

** This has always been an issue because too many legions are trying to stand on the 'most or nearly most compliances' hill. Sons of Horus, Ultramarines, Dark Angels and Word Bearers off the top of my head are all supposed to have done huge numbers of them. SoH are undoubtedly top but a lot of legions seem to be vying for the next couple of places. Space Wolves seem to have dropped off their list with the numbers clarifications, and I totally understand if that annoys their fans.

 

 

Back in 2nd Edition the Space Wolves had been described as a smaller Legion, explaining why the Legion had been divided into only two Chapters.

 

"The Space Wolves were never a very large Legion and so were divided only once, creating the ill-fated Wolfbrothers Chapter."

- 2nd Edition Codex Space Wolves, p. 9

 

 

Regarding "who did what the most", since 2nd Edition the Dark Angels Codices tell the story of "the Lion and the Wolf", and state that Leman Russ did not like Lion El'Jonson very much because only Jonson and Horus had a greater number of victories that him.

 

"If Jonson was quiet he was also brave and a mighty leader of men. During the Great Crusade only he and Horus achieved a greater tally of victories than Russ. Russ, ever concerned with his honour and good name, and ever keen to tell the noble saga of his deeds, found that exasperating."

- 2nd Edition Codex Angels of Death, p. 67

 

The same is repeated in the 3rd Edition Dark Angels Index Astartes article and the 4th Edition Codex Dark Angels (p. 20). It is no longer as definitively stated in the 6th Edition Codex Dark Angels, now merely stating that Jonson had more victories than Russ (p. 9), and is not mentioned in the 7th Edition Codex Dark Angels either.

 

It is worth noting that the Space Wolves Codices since 2nd Edition have not made that statement at all, and have instead given a slightly different account for the feud between Jonson and Russ, putting the blame more on the Dark Angels and their actions, rather than Russ' impetuousness. In the Dark Angels accounts, Russ initially disliked Jonson because he had more victories than him, and later during a battle Jonson defeated the tyrant Russ had sworn to defeat, which prompted Russ to attack Jonson. In the Space Wolves account, the two Legions were fighting side by side when suddenly and without notice the Dark Angels left position to advance, leaving the Space Wolves' flank exposed to a punishing attack from the enemy, killing many Wolves. That is why Leman Russ was enraged and attacked Jonson.

 

 

Since 2nd Edition there have been a number of sources attributing the greatest number of liberated worlds to the Ultramarines. Originally the 2nd Edition Codex Ultramarines (p. 12), but then repeated in the 5th Edition Codex Space Marines (p. 13), the 6th Edition WH40K Rulebook (p. 187) and most recently the 7th Edition WH40K Rulebook (Space Marines Chapters description).

A contesting claim had been made once, in the 3rd Edition Luna Wolves Index Astartes article, claiming that it had been them who had liberated the most worlds.

 

The 5th Horus Heresy book from Forgeworld, 'Tempest', states that "by some records" Roboute Guilliman had liberated the most worlds (p. 79).

 

 That's some good researching. Given that lore I would say it's no bad thing that the '3rd most compliances' thing has dropped by the wayside (unless it re-appears in Inferno ofc) - a smaller legion shouldn't "realistically" (bla bla 40k bla bla) have a greater number of compliances than the canon big legions like the SoH, DA and Ultras and latter-day WB, not counting the other Legions we know to be very large such as the IW and WE who also had little reason to stick around after conquering a planet. Now I've always taken the codexes to be slightly biased, and indicative more of the records of that chapter than of "true events". Add into that the size of the Imperium and the possibility of mistakes or records never reaching Terra etc. 

 

 That being said I think there's a place for the Space Wolves as one of the more efficient conquerors. Their 30k style of warfare and their attitude to conquest (the Wolf Lord in ATS specifically calling out Magnus for staying on a compliant world after it had been pacified) would make for fast compliances, meaning that for their numbers they could achieve more than a similarly sized legion. Plenty of other legions such as the TS,(Busy looting the room) IF (Build forts) and UM (rebuild society) would be taking longer on a 'per-astartes' basis to bring worlds back.

 

 As I said above the 'compliance total' has never seemed important to me, so that effects my view. Which has always been that the logistics of conquest will mean that the larger legions, both in total size and recruitment speed, are, ceteris paribus, going to have a big advantage that shouldn't be quickly dismissed in the lore. Russ just doesn't seem to me to be a primarch who would care much about the quantity of his victories or his legions, but would care more for the quality of them. Quality after all is the mark of a victory to be turned into a great and honourable saga.

 

 Of course that quote about Russ and the Lion is referring seemingly to their individual victories, not the total of their legions. Horus and Russ are always going to be strong contenders for that spot,  being the two earliest discovered Primarchs. Given that the Lion was discovered 11th, if true, that's an impressive feat on the Lion's part, even if the discovery gaps aren't that large.

[Legatus]

 That being said I think there's a place for the Space Wolves as one of the more efficient conquerors. Their 30k style of warfare and their attitude to conquest (the Wolf Lord in ATS specifically calling out Magnus for staying on a compliant world after it had been pacified) would make for fast compliances, meaning that for their numbers they could achieve more than a similarly sized legion. Plenty of other legions such as the TS,(Busy looting the room) IF (Build forts) and UM (rebuild society) would be taking longer on a 'per-astartes' basis to bring worlds back.

 

The Space Wolves might have had a similar MO as the Luna Wolves, who were described in their own Index Astartesd article as quickly moving on after having crushed a world's defenses, eager to reach the next glorious battlefield, often even leaving behind other Legions (the Iron Warriors and the Ultramarines are here specifically mentioned) to clean up after them. However, it is also noted that on many occasion further rebellion flared up on the worlds "liberated" by the Luna Wolves, as they left behind defenseless worlds with often destroyed infrastructure.

 

On the other hand the Ultramarines' MO (as described in their 2nd Edition Codex) of leaving behind advisors who oversaw the construction of infrastructure and defenses and integrating each world into a supply network was given as the main reason for why they were able to progress faster than the other Legions, even when they had still been "normal" size. Essentially the Ultramarines were able to conquer more worlds not because they were faster at defeating their enemies, but because they rarely had to wait for supplies and reinforcements, and because they rarely had to double back to defend an earlier liberated world from alien raiders or rebellion. So for "logistical" reasons, basically, with less down time.

 

The latter aspect (going back to defending an already conuered world) could be a main contributor to explaining the discrepancy between the most victories (Horus > Jonson > Russ) and the most liberated worlds (Guilliman). 'The First Heretic' gave the example of the Word Bearers coming to the aid of a world they had liberated. Horus left behind broken and defenseless worlds, so those worlds could easily be threatened by aggressive xenos or usurping tyrants again. Guilliman on the other hand left behind prosperous and well defended worlds, meaning he rarely had to worry about their well being. Perhaps in a year Horus' own force would conduct something like 20 different campaigns (as an example), but of those, 3 are in the aid of a world he had liberated earlier and 17 are liberating new worlds. In the same time Guilliman conducts 18 campaigns, all of them liberating a new world. So in total Horus gained more victories (20 vs 18), but because some of them were fighting on worlds he had liberated before, not all of them were new conquests, and Guilliman liberated more worlds in the same time span (18 vs 17).

[Terminus]

^ Dorn was a bit like Guilliman in this approach, except he mainly seems to have fortified the conquered planet against further attacks and set a small garrison of Fists to guard it.

 

Guilliman is the only one who played Civilization while he was a kid, I guess, he was the only one who understood the value of consolidating your conquests. Like like the Horus/Russ zerg-fest. All hail our spiritual liege. :D

[Kasper_Hawser]

Man all this wall of text is giving me a headache. For now, I consol myself that I'm not alone in my opinion of the uneven portrayal of the Wolves. At the same time, I'm glad of all your perspectives which have been very reasonable and interesting even if I don't agree with them.

 

Long story cut short, I'm also annoyed that Wolves have not been given much moments to shine beyond the smashing of the Olemic Quietude, which is a victory they can truly call their own. Prospero Burns, the more we're told, just doesn't seem like a Space Wolf victory anymore with all the handicaps and plot twists thrown in like SoS, Custodes, Magnus being a jerk...

 

..... Sons of Horus on Prospero? Which story was that and what were they doing there?

 

Nevertheless, I still hold that Russ is one of the most admirable of the Primarchs in the sense he is willing to change himself and his legion after all he and his Legion has been through. Which is more than I can say for primarchs like Kurze, Fulgrim and Dorn who refuse to change themselves when they need to and remain one trick ponies to the end.

 

Wolf King may have resulted in a whooping for the Wolves, and an embarassing rescue by the Dark Angels, but nothing in the book made Russ less awesome. He is even willing to admit he was duped. And after all was said and done...

 

... I recognise my failing at last.

 

So after all is said and done, I'm still glad I'm a Space Wolves player, in fluff and in game. It may have not always been that way in fluff history, but I chose to play SW because they are one of the closest things to "good guys" in the grimdarkness of 40K. And as of Wolf King, I'm beginning to see the change already as Russ realizes that his way of doing things, even if its what the Emperor told him to do, is ultimately hurting him and his Legion, and he will strive to change it in the future books.

 

We're at a critical point, where the Wolves have to change themselves from "executioners" to "saviours", from "total jerks" to "not so big jerk", from "idiotic barbarians" to "eccentric Space Marines". A tall order to be sure, let's hope Gav Thorpe stays away from trying to do any of this.

[Marshal Rohr]

Fulgrim: gave into hubris and pride leading his legion into betrayal

 

Kurze: butchered civilians and led his legion into a self fulfilling prophecy of betrayal

 

Dorn: didn't like the codex and suffered a breakdown for failing to protect the emperor

 

Yeh, they're all bad apples those three.

 

I was really worried we were having a nuanced discussion of the relativity of identity but I'm glad to see it's just a normal, I like x because of relative preferences so y sucks.