Space Wolves (and Leman Russ) Identity Discussion

[Runefyre]

I was really worried we were having a nuanced discussion of the relativity of identity but I'm glad to see it's just a normal, I like x because of relative preferences so y sucks.

Welcome to the internet brother.

 

I'd like to note that this thread is not just for Identity issues, but also portrayal (i.e. what actually happens in the books and how it could have been better/ how awesome it is).

[Runefyre]

So with the reveal of Leman Russ's stat-line and place-holder rules, does this change anybodies opinion or impression regarding his capabilities? I realise this is a rather ambiguous question but perhaps now that we can at least partially compare Russ's stat-line with his brothers it will help clarify certain events that are more open to interpretation regarding Russ's actions in any given event.

 

On a different note, how do the watch-packs fit into the legion structure, and what is their actual function? It's pretty obvious that afew regular astartes (from any legion) are a terrible match-up against a primarch, so what exactly is their mission?

[Marshal Rohr]

Not to sound boastful, but I've pre-empted a few of the forge world legion structures (embarrassingly I was dead wrong about my own) by finding their old rules from epic. If that's anything to go by, the space wolves are going to be the drop assault/shock infantry legion. Their old rules gave them access to more pods and thunderbolt landers, bumped the assault detachment limit and restricted the heavy support detachment limit. I'm going to lean towards great companies having chapters and those having battalions, but with appropriate names. Thanks fill the role of centurion, etc. I'd expect the tactical level to be more ad hoc of personalization relationships.

[Jarl Kjaran Coldheart]

Unremembered Empire shows that under the right circumstances, as small as a squad of Marines are capable of serious harm to a Primarch

 

That said, I don't believe the Watch Packs were there to sanction a Primarch, or capable of sanctioning them 99% of them time (the above mentioned scenario aside) I personally believe they were canaries in a coal mine. If the watched were to turn traitor, the packs were to alert Terra then make any moves they thought needed.

[Sandlemad]

Not to sound boastful, but I've pre-empted a few of the forge world legion structures (embarrassingly I was dead wrong about my own) by finding their old rules from epic. If that's anything to go by, the space wolves are going to be the drop assault/shock infantry legion. Their old rules gave them access to more pods and thunderbolt landers, bumped the assault detachment limit and restricted the heavy support detachment limit. I'm going to lean towards great companies having chapters and those having battalions, but with appropriate names. Thanks fill the role of centurion, etc. I'd expect the tactical level to be more ad hoc of personalization relationships.

 

"Shock assault" in tendencies, "the heavy infantry that form the core of the legion's battalions", sounds about right. It's vague but looks like you and FW may be indeed be supping from the same chalice.

 

I think there was a line in Betrayal about the wolves and world eaters making the most use of drop pods as well.

 

EDIT:

 

On a different note, how do the watch-packs fit into the legion structure, and what is their actual function? It's pretty obvious that afew regular astartes (from any legion) are a terrible match-up against a primarch, so what exactly is their mission?

 

The watch-packs seem to have been ordinary packs of veterans plucked from ranks for the task. The guys in Howl of the Hearthworld had a jarl of some sort (chapter-level but sub-great company?) as well as a rune priest but this was clearly exceptional.

 

Have to agree with WLK on the 'canary' theory. The biggest thing the Alpha Legion infiltrators in Unremembered Empire had on their side was surprise. Pretty much by definition a watch pack isn't going to have that as they'll already be lurking around, waiting for any signs of treachery. The primarch would always have the drop on them. Thinking here of the watch pack that met Curze (unarmed) and was torn to shreds by the ready-and-waiting NL.

[Legionnaire of the VIIth]

So just to add it to the discussion, from The Horus Heresy: Burning of Prospero, Legions at War Booklet, page 5:

 

 

"Incensed beyond measure by this transgression, the Emperor immediately sent for his trusted champion and executioner, Leman Russ of the Space Wolves. Russ was secretly pleased by the chance to test the might of his Fenrisian warriors against his rival Legion, for he considered them to have strayed from the Emperor's designs."

 

 

Page 6:

 

 

 

"As the Great Crusade unfolded, the Space Wolves took the role of the Emperor's executioners. Some whispered they were intended as the bringers of ultimate vengeance should any legion stray from the light. The supposition became ironclad truth when the Space Wolves were sent to bring the Thousand Sons to heel, no matter the cost to their Legion or to their home world. It was an order carried out with full and unstoppable zeal."

 

 

Note: I doubt by this time there is anything here people would be upset about reading but placed them in spoilers just to be sure.

 

So I would say that GW fully embraces the concept that they were the Emperor's Executioners and the way I interpret the second quote they had yet to be unleashed on another Legion at that point. Maybe they had been used to quell planet uprisings by 'mortals' in the past. Astartes aren't the only ones that might have needed 'execution' at their hands.

[Hfran Morkai]

I hope for a an effective drop list, ideally guided in by Recon Squads/Wolf Scouts as that's the premise of my company, small bands of infiltrators operating days and weeks ahead of the main fighting force to be deployed via pod and aircraft.

 

I feel that this is the way they will want to lean, Prospero being the obvious example of orbital assault.

[Knight of the Raven]

So I would say that GW fully embraces the concept that they were the Emperor's Executioners and the way I interpret the second quote they had yet to be unleashed on another Legion at that point. Maybe they had been used to quell planet uprisings by 'mortals' in the past. Astartes aren't the only ones that might have needed 'execution' at their hands.

The Space Wolves being the Emperor's sanctioned executioners isn't a bad thing in itself, I believe the scorn and comtempt started when people (from either side of the argument) took it as evidence that the Rout is better than all other legions. Dan Abnett's "The question is, why would the Emperor allow such a brutal and terrifying Legion to exist? The answer is obviously, to take down another Legion." prior to Prospero Burns' release probably didn't help, since it apparently forgets that World Eaters routinely depopulated entire star systems and Night Lords tortured everything they got their hands on to death.

 

A D-B's own quotes about Khârn's and Sevatar's opinion on the executioner's mantle explain why they're bad for that role as opposed to the Space Wolves, but Dan Abnett's line sounds more than a little like glorifying a legion at the expense of others.

 

Several people still despise Ultramarines for being regularly shown as the best of the best of the best, so is it any surprise people didn't take Space Wolves being treated as slayers of legions kindly?

[Runefyre]

 

So I would say that GW fully embraces the concept that they were the Emperor's Executioners and the way I interpret the second quote they had yet to be unleashed on another Legion at that point. Maybe they had been used to quell planet uprisings by 'mortals' in the past. Astartes aren't the only ones that might have needed 'execution' at their hands.

The Space Wolves being the Emperor's sanctioned executioners isn't a bad thing in itself, I believe the scorn and comtempt started when people (from either side of the argument) took it as evidence that the Rout is better than all other legions. Dan Abnett's "The question is, why would the Emperor allow such a brutal and terrifying Legion to exist? The answer is obviously, to take down another Legion." prior to Prospero Burns' release probably didn't help, since it apparently forgets that World Eaters routinely depopulated entire star systems and Night Lords tortured everything they got their hands on to death.

 

A D-B's own quotes about Khârn's and Sevatar's opinion on the executioner's mantle explain why they're bad for that role as opposed to the Space Wolves, but Dan Abnett's line sounds more than a little like glorifying a legion at the expense of others.

 

Several people still despise Ultramarines for being regularly shown as the best of the best of the best, so is it any surprise people didn't take Space Wolves being treated as slayers of legions kindly?

 

yet the White Scars manage to be an unstoppable force, even against the Warmaster's efforts. Giving the Wolves some decent screen-time and capabilities even half of the WS's and I'd be happy.

 

 

One of the more interesting quotes from the BoP booklet is it's noted that the Wolves have one of the largest fleets....

[Knight of the Raven]

I don't know much about the White Scars other than I'd rather have their dedicated author write the Raven Guard and Salamanders Horus Heresy novels than Gavin Thorpe and Nick Kyme. But on a similar note, I am wondering why Sons of Horus aren't as reviled as Space Wolves. Weren't they supposed to be "the best legion with the best primarch" or some such? Is that because they turned traitors and ultimately lost the civil war?

 

Don't Space Wolves have a habit of taking enemy ships for themselves? That might explain why they have such a numerous fleet.

 

Of course, Space Wolves have one thing that White Scars and Sons of Horus don't have, or Night Lords and World Eaters for that matter: their own codices and several plastic kits. I can't stress enough how much this kind of special treatment from Games Workshop can grind people's gears.

EDIT: I'm not saying this to steer the thread towards complaining about space marine favoritism, I'm just stating it can be one of the reasons Space Wolves can be disliked.

[Jarl Kjaran Coldheart]

Well GW did just give up a Wolfed up wolf pelt wearing Wolf hero in a setting which is supposed to mute the Wolfyness...so who knows?

[Runefyre]

Well GW did just give up a Wolfed up wolf pelt wearing Wolf hero in a setting which is supposed to mute the Wolfyness...so who knows?

I have to say I'm a little bit disappointed with Geigor, he's an awesome model but not really Heresy Era.

 

Also, I just had the thought. What if the "executioner role" is more of "one use only" sort of deal. Sort of a safety for the Big E to deal with any legion that he considered to be turning traitor (which he did consider the Tsons to be the original traitors). basically expend a legion designed to be utterly loyal in order to destroy any seeds of dissent in another. This might be why the role was only conjecture until the Empy made it official by declaring their "use".

[Knight of the Raven]

I've just realized I've been posting in this thread like it was 'discuss why Space Wolves have a hatedom' instead of 'discuss the identity of Space Wolves and Leman Russ.' Sorry.

 

Also, I just had the thought. What if the "executioner role" is more of "one use only" sort of deal. Sort of a safety for the Big E to deal with any legion that he considered to be turning traitor (which he did consider the Tsons to be the original traitors). basically expend a legion designed to be utterly loyal in order to destroy any seeds of dissent in another. This might be why the role was only conjecture until the Empy made it official by declaring their "use".

Well, the Emperor sent the Legio Custodes and the Sisters of Silence with the Space Wolves to deal with Magnus, so apparently he wasn't expecting them to succeed on their own... but then again the Thousand Sons are the psyker-happy legion, so the latter was kind of necessary. The former could have been just to prove Leman Russ wasn't acting on his own.

 

Anyway, I've been remembering an old post about Betrayer's Night of the Wolf. It explained that Leman Russ was the only primarch out of all the others who actually gave a damn about Angron and that was why he tried to reason with him and show him he was destroying his legion. I don't know if this is true, but this is interesting.

[Iron Hands Fanatic]

I've just realized I've been posting in this thread like it was 'discuss why Space Wolves have a hatedom' instead of 'discuss the identity of Space Wolves and Leman Russ.' Sorry.

 

Also, I just had the thought. What if the "executioner role" is more of "one use only" sort of deal. Sort of a safety for the Big E to deal with any legion that he considered to be turning traitor (which he did consider the Tsons to be the original traitors). basically expend a legion designed to be utterly loyal in order to destroy any seeds of dissent in another. This might be why the role was only conjecture until the Empy made it official by declaring their "use".

Well, the Emperor sent the Legio Custodes and the Sisters of Silence with the Space Wolves to deal with Magnus, so apparently he wasn't expecting them to succeed on their own... but then again the Thousand Sons are the psyker-happy legion, so the latter was kind of necessary. The former could have been just to prove Leman Russ wasn't acting on his own.

 

Anyway, I've been remembering an old post about Betrayer's Night of the Wolf. It explained that Leman Russ was the only primarch out of all the others who actually gave a damn about Angron and that was why he tried to reason with him and show him he was destroying his legion. I don't know if this is true, but this is interesting.

 

I like to think it had something to do with Russ' concerns about his own Legion - he was doing it to prove to himself that the World Eaters could be pulled back from the brink, because he saw their brutality & savagery mirrored in the Wolves, and he was worried about the possibility of them loosing control due to the Canis Helix in the same way the Butchers Nails had driven the World Eaters from the straight & narrow

[Runefyre]

I've just realized I've been posting in this thread like it was 'discuss why Space Wolves have a hatedom' instead of 'discuss the identity of Space Wolves and Leman Russ.' Sorry.

 

Also, I just had the thought. What if the "executioner role" is more of "one use only" sort of deal. Sort of a safety for the Big E to deal with any legion that he considered to be turning traitor (which he did consider the Tsons to be the original traitors). basically expend a legion designed to be utterly loyal in order to destroy any seeds of dissent in another. This might be why the role was only conjecture until the Empy made it official by declaring their "use".

Well, the Emperor sent the Legio Custodes and the Sisters of Silence with the Space Wolves to deal with Magnus, so apparently he wasn't expecting them to succeed on their own... but then again the Thousand Sons are the psyker-happy legion, so the latter was kind of necessary. The former could have been just to prove Leman Russ wasn't acting on his own.

 

Anyway, I've been remembering an old post about Betrayer's Night of the Wolf. It explained that Leman Russ was the only primarch out of all the others who actually gave a damn about Angron and that was why he tried to reason with him and show him he was destroying his legion. I don't know if this is true, but this is interesting.

The Custodes were there to signify that it was "official Empy's business". They weren't in significant enough numbers to have an impact on the SW's actions as a whole. The SoS were there to deal with the over-the-top sorcery employed by the Tsons. My impression has been that the reason that the Tsons were so strong is because tzeentch's little familiars were boosting their power. All that is courtesy of Magnus' pride.

[Leif Bearclaw]

 

 

I like to think it had something to do with Russ' concerns about his own Legion - he was doing it to prove to himself that the World Eaters could be pulled back from the brink, because he saw their brutality & savagery mirrored in the Wolves, and he was worried about the possibility of them loosing control due to the Canis Helix in the same way the Butchers Nails had driven the World Eaters from the straight & narrow

 

I dunno, this doesn't quite gel with what we see of Russ in PB and, by reputation, TFH. He genuinely doesn't want to take down Magnus and burn Prospero, and he spoke against the chastisement of Lorgar at Monarchia. The Russ we've seen appears to have honest fraternal affection towards his brothers, possibly emphasised by his own wolf pack roots. So it doesn't seem exactly fair to assume his dealing with Angron was the result of selfish self interest, rather than the honest attempt to help Angron it was apparently (not read Betrayer myself, so I have only 2nd hand info to go on) intended to be.

[Iron Hands Fanatic]

 

I've just realized I've been posting in this thread like it was 'discuss why Space Wolves have a hatedom' instead of 'discuss the identity of Space Wolves and Leman Russ.' Sorry.

 

Also, I just had the thought. What if the "executioner role" is more of "one use only" sort of deal. Sort of a safety for the Big E to deal with any legion that he considered to be turning traitor (which he did consider the Tsons to be the original traitors). basically expend a legion designed to be utterly loyal in order to destroy any seeds of dissent in another. This might be why the role was only conjecture until the Empy made it official by declaring their "use".

Well, the Emperor sent the Legio Custodes and the Sisters of Silence with the Space Wolves to deal with Magnus, so apparently he wasn't expecting them to succeed on their own... but then again the Thousand Sons are the psyker-happy legion, so the latter was kind of necessary. The former could have been just to prove Leman Russ wasn't acting on his own.

 

Anyway, I've been remembering an old post about Betrayer's Night of the Wolf. It explained that Leman Russ was the only primarch out of all the others who actually gave a damn about Angron and that was why he tried to reason with him and show him he was destroying his legion. I don't know if this is true, but this is interesting.

The Custodes were there to signify that it was "official Empy's business". They weren't in significant enough numbers to have an impact on the SW's actions as a whole. The SoS were there to deal with the over-the-top sorcery employed by the Tsons. My impression has been that the reason that the Tsons were so strong is because tzeentch's little familiars were boosting their power. All that is courtesy of Magnus' pride.

 

 

I think the reason the Tsons were so powerful is because they are a Legion, and they're on their own turf - if the Emperor had initially intended for the Wolves to take out the Thousand Sons, they would have received even more support - as it is, they were up against a Legion, all the reserve wargear they would have had on their Homeworld -  which as a Legion Homeworld is probably one of the most heavily defended planets in the Imperium - their auxilia forces and a decisive home turf advantage. Any Legion vs. Legion fight is going to turn into a brutal war of attrition, and even if there is a 'winning' side, they'd be so depleted by battlefield losses, the victory would be meaningless.

 

That's part of the reason I've never thought the Executioners title references the two Lost Legions - if the Emperor had to expunge a Legion, surely he'd send multiple Legions to take them out so that the retribution force would actually be capable of functioning after the war - on Prospero, the Emperor never intended for the Wolves to eliminate the Sons, and even when Horus intervened, he would  have wanted the Wolves neutralised if possible, hence he didn't provide additional support which could prevent the Wolves from suffering horrifying losses during the act.

 

 

 

 

I like to think it had something to do with Russ' concerns about his own Legion - he was doing it to prove to himself that the World Eaters could be pulled back from the brink, because he saw their brutality & savagery mirrored in the Wolves, and he was worried about the possibility of them loosing control due to the Canis Helix in the same way the Butchers Nails had driven the World Eaters from the straight & narrow

 

I dunno, this doesn't quite gel with what we see of Russ in PB and, by reputation, TFH. He genuinely doesn't want to take down Magnus and burn Prospero, and he spoke against the chastisement of Lorgar at Monarchia. The Russ we've seen appears to have honest fraternal affection towards his brothers, possibly emphasised by his own wolf pack roots. So it doesn't seem exactly fair to assume his dealing with Angron was the result of selfish self interest, rather than the honest attempt to help Angron it was apparently (not read Betrayer myself, so I have only 2nd hand info to go on) intended to be.

 

 

Well, what I was suggesting would only be part of it, so alongside the fraternal affection, Angron's situation would have added poignancy because Russ could empathise with it - caring about someone's situation because you understand it doesn't make it selfish

[Zeratil]

Also, I just had the thought. What if the "executioner role" is more of "one use only" sort of deal. Sort of a safety for the Big E to deal with any legion that he considered to be turning traitor (which he did consider the Tsons to be the original traitors). basically expend a legion designed to be utterly loyal in order to destroy any seeds of dissent in another. This might be why the role was only conjecture until the Empy made it official by declaring their "use".

 

 

 

  That's somewhat disputed, in my experience 'later' (i.e. closer to 40k) sources say The Thousand Sons were traitors and Russ was sent to destory them, sources closer to 30k tend more towards the Emperor sending Russ to bring Magnus back to Terra - something he unquestionably doesn't attempt to do. Most sources point to this being him taking the word of the Warmaster, basically saying the Emperor's changed his mind, execute the lot of them. Given what Russ knew at the time this was a valid command, even if we might say he was a little to eager to agree to it given the bad blood between the two Primarchs and their legions.

 Edit: Phil Kelly and Rob Crudace speak to this point a little in the latest White Dwarf having just found the passage.
 

The Custodes were there to signify that it was "official Empy's business". They weren't in significant enough numbers to have an impact on the SW's actions as a whole. The SoS were there to deal with the over-the-top sorcery employed by the Tsons. My impression has been that the reason that the Tsons were so strong is because tzeentch's little familiars were boosting their power. All that is courtesy of Magnus' pride.

 

 

 

 

  The impression ATS gives is that familliars acted more like a traditional wizard's familliar, they might acts as guides or companions, but didn't boost the power of the user. This is backed up I feel by the fact that they start doing this during the battle for Prospero (killing quite a few Sons) and the Thousand Sons are surprised and confused that they can do this.
 

 

 

I dunno, this doesn't quite gel with what we see of Russ in PB and, by reputation, TFH. He genuinely doesn't want to take down Magnus and burn Prospero, and he spoke against the chastisement of Lorgar at Monarchia. The Russ we've seen appears to have honest fraternal affection towards his brothers, possibly emphasised by his own wolf pack roots. So it doesn't seem exactly fair to assume his dealing with Angron was the result of selfish self interest, rather than the honest attempt to help Angron it was apparently (not read Betrayer myself, so I have only 2nd hand info to go on) intended to be.

 

 

  Russ doesn't seem selfish to me, he's as much of a 'greek god' archetype as the rest of the Primarchs and the Emperor. Russ certainly doesn't have affection for some of his brothers but does act out of what he believes the Emperor would wish, not for selfish reasons, although he's as vulnerable to manipulation as all the other primarchs prove to be.
 

 

 

I've just realized I've been posting in this thread like it was 'discuss why Space Wolves have a hatedom' instead of 'discuss the identity of Space Wolves and Leman Russ.' Sorry.

 

Also, I just had the thought. What if the "executioner role" is more of "one use only" sort of deal. Sort of a safety for the Big E to deal with any legion that he considered to be turning traitor (which he did consider the Tsons to be the original traitors). basically expend a legion designed to be utterly loyal in order to destroy any seeds of dissent in another. This might be why the role was only conjecture until the Empy made it official by declaring their "use".

Well, the Emperor sent the Legio Custodes and the Sisters of Silence with the Space Wolves to deal with Magnus, so apparently he wasn't expecting them to succeed on their own... but then again the Thousand Sons are the psyker-happy legion, so the latter was kind of necessary. The former could have been just to prove Leman Russ wasn't acting on his own.

 

Anyway, I've been remembering an old post about Betrayer's Night of the Wolf. It explained that Leman Russ was the only primarch out of all the others who actually gave a damn about Angron and that was why he tried to reason with him and show him he was destroying his legion. I don't know if this is true, but this is interesting.

The Custodes were there to signify that it was "official Empy's business". They weren't in significant enough numbers to have an impact on the SW's actions as a whole. The SoS were there to deal with the over-the-top sorcery employed by the Tsons. My impression has been that the reason that the Tsons were so strong is because tzeentch's little familiars were boosting their power. All that is courtesy of Magnus' pride.

 

 

I think the reason the Tsons were so powerful is because they are a Legion, and they're on their own turf - if the Emperor had initially intended for the Wolves to take out the Thousand Sons, they would have received even more support - as it is, they were up against a Legion, all the reserve wargear they would have had on their Homeworld -  which as a Legion Homeworld is probably one of the most heavily defended planets in the Imperium - their auxilia forces and a decisive home turf advantage. Any Legion vs. Legion fight is going to turn into a brutal war of attrition, and even if there is a 'winning' side, they'd be so depleted by battlefield losses, the victory would be meaningless.

 

That's part of the reason I've never thought the Executioners title references the two Lost Legions - if the Emperor had to expunge a Legion, surely he'd send multiple Legions to take them out so that the retribution force would actually be capable of functioning after the war - on Prospero, the Emperor never intended for the Wolves to eliminate the Sons, and even when Horus intervened, he would  have wanted the Wolves neutralised if possible, hence he didn't provide additional support which could prevent the Wolves from suffering horrifying losses during the act.

 

 

 

 

I like to think it had something to do with Russ' concerns about his own Legion - he was doing it to prove to himself that the World Eaters could be pulled back from the brink, because he saw their brutality & savagery mirrored in the Wolves, and he was worried about the possibility of them loosing control due to the Canis Helix in the same way the Butchers Nails had driven the World Eaters from the straight & narrow

 

I dunno, this doesn't quite gel with what we see of Russ in PB and, by reputation, TFH. He genuinely doesn't want to take down Magnus and burn Prospero, and he spoke against the chastisement of Lorgar at Monarchia. The Russ we've seen appears to have honest fraternal affection towards his brothers, possibly emphasised by his own wolf pack roots. So it doesn't seem exactly fair to assume his dealing with Angron was the result of selfish self interest, rather than the honest attempt to help Angron it was apparently (not read Betrayer myself, so I have only 2nd hand info to go on) intended to be.

 

 

Well, what I was suggesting would only be part of it, so alongside the fraternal affection, Angron's situation would have added poignancy because Russ could empathise with it - caring about someone's situation because you understand it doesn't make it selfish

 

  Anytime a Legion's attacks another Legion's homeworld it seems to go very badly - look at the Word Bearer's attacking Macragge, or even Calth in addition to Prospero. It's right that attacking a Legion homeworld should be basically impossible without some major advantage, and a herculean feat even with one.
 

[Sandlemad]

 

 

 

I like to think it had something to do with Russ' concerns about his own Legion - he was doing it to prove to himself that the World Eaters could be pulled back from the brink, because he saw their brutality & savagery mirrored in the Wolves, and he was worried about the possibility of them loosing control due to the Canis Helix in the same way the Butchers Nails had driven the World Eaters from the straight & narrow

 

I dunno, this doesn't quite gel with what we see of Russ in PB and, by reputation, TFH. He genuinely doesn't want to take down Magnus and burn Prospero, and he spoke against the chastisement of Lorgar at Monarchia. The Russ we've seen appears to have honest fraternal affection towards his brothers, possibly emphasised by his own wolf pack roots. So it doesn't seem exactly fair to assume his dealing with Angron was the result of selfish self interest, rather than the honest attempt to help Angron it was apparently (not read Betrayer myself, so I have only 2nd hand info to go on) intended to be.

 

 

Have to agree with this. Russ being "secretly pleased" sounds like imperial or later SW speculation, Prospero Burns shows him - quite movingly - attempting to save his brother while still complying fully with what he thinks are his orders. We get that again from The First Heretic where Magnus grudgingly informs Lorgar that Russ absolutely does not want to lose another brother.

Russ does discuss the similarity and differences between the SW and WE with Angron but I think it was more as something that Angron should aspire to rather than any concern with his own men.

 

Wolf pack roots sounds plausible - that's a more supportive family structure than some of the other primarchs got - but given that we know he was the third primarch to join the great crusade, I'd put it partially down to older sibling syndrome. Overprotective, cares for his brothers, while convinced he knows best - Fenrisian certainty again - and willing to act as enforcer.

[Flint13]

 

Also, I just had the thought. What if the "executioner role" is more of "one use only" sort of deal. Sort of a safety for the Big E to deal with any legion that he considered to be turning traitor (which he did consider the Tsons to be the original traitors). basically expend a legion designed to be utterly loyal in order to destroy any seeds of dissent in another. This might be why the role was only conjecture until the Empy made it official by declaring their "use".

 

 

 

  That's somewhat disputed, in my experience 'later' (i.e. closer to 40k) sources say The Thousand Sons were traitors and Russ was sent to destory them, sources closer to 30k tend more towards the Emperor sending Russ to bring Magnus back to Terra - something he unquestionably doesn't attempt to do. Most sources point to this being him taking the word of the Warmaster, basically saying the Emperor's changed his mind, execute the lot of them. Given what Russ knew at the time this was a valid command, even if we might say he was a little to eager to agree to it given the bad blood between the two Primarchs and their legions.

 

 Edit: Phil Kelly and Rob Crudace speak to this point a little in the latest White Dwarf having just found the passage.

 

 

 

I thought it was pretty definitively established that the Emperor sent Russ to reign in Magnus after disobeying the Edict and his orders were intercepted by one of the Warmaster's agents and altered to read "kill" instead of "arrest and return to Terra." This to play on the feelings of Russ, both in his self-appointed role of enforcer as well as validating his hatred of, if not Magnus himself, at least in his "sorcery." It's pretty evident when Russ steps off his Thunderhawk though, he's there to kill the Thousand Sons, not act as a police force. 

 

The take away being that Horus wasn't 100% on which way the Sons would side yet, and the Wolves were dangerous. He wanted the Wolves ground down to nothing and Magnus on his side. Worst case scenario, they wipe each other out to the point neither would be able to contribute meaningfully.

 

In this, I'll totally agree with your assessment that the Emperor never meant the Sons to be executed by Russ, and thus they didn't go in at 100% strength, but this allowed Horus to make sure they didn't really have a good chance at actually winning when they showed up to Prospero. 

 

 

 

 

The Custodes were there to signify that it was "official Empy's business". They weren't in significant enough numbers to have an impact on the SW's actions as a whole. The SoS were there to deal with the over-the-top sorcery employed by the Tsons. My impression has been that the reason that the Tsons were so strong is because tzeentch's little familiars were boosting their power. All that is courtesy of Magnus' pride.

 

 

 

  The impression ATS gives is that familliars acted more like a traditional wizard's familliar, they might acts as guides or companions, but didn't boost the power of the user. This is backed up I feel by the fact that they start doing this during the battle for Prospero (killing quite a few Sons) and the Thousand Sons are surprised and confused that they can do this.

 

 

 

 Ah, this one I can speak directly to. I finished Thousand Sons for the fourth time last night.

 

The tutelaries of the Sons definitely boosted their powers. Kalophis's pyrotechnics were "magnified a hundred fold" by Ceoda when he was piloting Canis Vertex. When the Scarab Occult fight off Wolves their tutelaries are hovering around the VI legion warriors and acting as conduits for warpcraft  "amplifying their masters' powers with spiteful glee."

 

However Kalophis does wrestle with his Tutelary pretty much the entire time until it does finally consume him.

[Kol Saresk]

 

 

 

 

 

 

The Custodes were there to signify that it was "official Empy's business". They weren't in significant enough numbers to have an impact on the SW's actions as a whole. The SoS were there to deal with the over-the-top sorcery employed by the Tsons. My impression has been that the reason that the Tsons were so strong is because tzeentch's little familiars were boosting their power. All that is courtesy of Magnus' pride.

 

 

The impression ATS gives is that familliars acted more like a traditional wizard's familliar, they might acts as guides or companions, but didn't boost the power of the user. This is backed up I feel by the fact that they start doing this during the battle for Prospero (killing quite a few Sons) and the Thousand Sons are surprised and confused that they can do this.

 

Ah, this one I can speak directly to. I finished Thousand Sons for the fourth time last night.

 

The tutelaries of the Sons definitely boosted their powers. Kalophis's pyrotechnics were "magnified a hundred fold" by Ceoda when he was piloting Canis Vertex. When the Scarab Occult fight off Wolves their tutelaries are hovering around the VI legion warriors and acting as conduits for warpcraft "amplifying their masters' powers with spiteful glee."

 

However Kalophis does wrestle with his Tutelary pretty much the entire time until it does finally consume him.

I don't think Zeratil was disputing that. I read his post as more of "it was something the tutelaries didn't do until the Razing, and it was something the Sons didn't even know the tutelaries were capable of until it happened."

 

Which is how I remember it being, but it's been somewhere around a year since I read A Thousand Sons.

[Zeratil]

Yes, this is what I meant to imply, my post is a little unclear reading it back. 

[b1soul]

 

When reading Horus Heresy novels, SW's consistently come off as underpowered*, especially in the legion v legion conflicts that "executioners" should excel in. But given that FW seems to want to refer to SW's AS executioners, perhaps there's something going on behind the scenes to sabotage their capabilities?

 

Maybe Horus considered them a big enough threat that he tasked someone with intercepting or delaying supply convoys and intelligence? This would help account for the lack of armoured support the SW's had on Prospero, and maybe the bad repair their ships were in at Alaxxes and Yarrant.

I'm curious about the under-powered comment. They seem to be roughly equal to other legions when matched against them, which is what should be expected. I don't think being executioners of the disloyal should be interpreted as somehow being better at killing marines. It simply means they have the mindset for it. During the great crusade that would be an advantage in killing marines since it would be unthinkable in other legions, but during the Heresy? During the Heresy every Astartes is an executioner.

Fully agreed...the SW are partially self-styled "executioners" mainly b/c of their psych profile. Ruthless but not sadistic or bloodcrazed

 

I would point out that it's doubtful the WE or the NL would have balked at killing marines even during the Great Crusade...the problem with these two legions is that they would have enjoyed killing their cousins too much. It would have probably further twisted their psychosis. The WE actually ended up killing SW and vice versa on Genna. They probably would have enjoyed another confrontation.

[grand_master85]

All I can say to all who have contributed to this thread: thank you. Thank you (especially to Apologist and Zeratil) for steering this formerly anti-Space Wolves, anti-anything-wolfy man into someone who has found a gosh darn huge amount of respect for the VIth Legion. It's really opened my eyes to a different viewpoint of the Wolves to the point where I'm reading Prospero Burns again and even de-wolfying Greigor Fellhand and painting up my very first Space Wolf.

[Runefyre]

All I can say to all who have contributed to this thread: thank you. Thank you (especially to Apologist and Zeratil) for steering this formerly anti-Space Wolves, anti-anything-wolfy man into someone who has found a gosh darn huge amount of respect for the VIth Legion. It's really opened my eyes to a different viewpoint of the Wolves to the point where I'm reading Prospero Burns again and even de-wolfying Greigor Fellhand and painting up my very first Space Wolf.

This thread has been very refreshing to me as a SW player as well. It's very nice to see non-SW players (and especially Tsons players) who don't automatically hate the opposite faction.

 

 

 

 

When reading Horus Heresy novels, SW's consistently come off as underpowered*, especially in the legion v legion conflicts that "executioners" should excel in. But given that FW seems to want to refer to SW's AS executioners, perhaps there's something going on behind the scenes to sabotage their capabilities?

 

Maybe Horus considered them a big enough threat that he tasked someone with intercepting or delaying supply convoys and intelligence? This would help account for the lack of armoured support the SW's had on Prospero, and maybe the bad repair their ships were in at Alaxxes and Yarrant.

I'm curious about the under-powered comment. They seem to be roughly equal to other legions when matched against them, which is what should be expected. I don't think being executioners of the disloyal should be interpreted as somehow being better at killing marines. It simply means they have the mindset for it. During the great crusade that would be an advantage in killing marines since it would be unthinkable in other legions, but during the Heresy? During the Heresy every Astartes is an executioner.

Fully agreed...the SW are partially self-styled "executioners" mainly b/c of their psych profile. Ruthless but not sadistic or bloodcrazed

 

I would point out that it's doubtful the WE or the NL would have balked at killing marines even during the Great Crusade...the problem with these two legions is that they would have enjoyed killing their cousins too much. It would have probably further twisted their psychosis. The WE actually ended up killing SW and vice versa on Genna. They probably would have enjoyed another confrontation.

 

Except that "executioners" is no longer self-styled, it is actually what the Emperor intended and used them for. It would make sense that the Big E would create the Wolves to think of themselves as executioners 'cause that's what they are.

 

This doesn't mean that they have to be better than other astartes, just willing and able to follow orders to the letter. Not less, not more. Taking heavy losses at Prospero doesn't mean the Wolves are incapable by any stretch of the imagination, as if the Tsons assaulted Fenris they to would be mauled (even if the Wolves had the handicaps the Tsons had on Prospero). Doesn't mean the Wolves would successfully defend Fenris, but it would be a mirror. I think the same would apply to most legion homeworlds.