Space Wolves (and Leman Russ) Identity Discussion

[Augustus]

What now? That's been confirmed?

[Flint13]

The Thousand Sons coming back to even the score is the entire plot of Battle of the Fang, correct?

[Jarl Kjaran Coldheart]

The Thousand Sons coming back to even the score is the entire plot of Battle of the Fang, correct?

Close enough

The Wolves are working on a project called the Tempering, which would allow the Wolf gene seed to be mass produced and stabilized

The Wolves wanted to ring the Eye of Terror in successor chapters.

 

Magnus personally crushes that dream, though the awoken Bjorn is very unhappy with it himself and said Russ wouldn't have approved

[Runefyre]

What now? That's been confirmed?

In the Burning of Prospero box-set booklet, it explicitly states it. and I quote:

 

"As the Great Crusade unfolded, the Space Wolves took the role of the Emperor's Executioners. Some whispered they were intended as the bringers of ultimate vengeance should any Legion stray from the light. The supposition became ironclad truth when the Space Wolves were sent to bring the Thousand Sons to heel, no matter the cost to their Legion or to their home world. It was an order carried out with full and unstoppable zeal.

[Petitioner's City]

Also I think, although it has already been stressed at points in different formats, that an executioner is a legal actor with very limited duties. He or she operates according to the letter of the law, and must enact the punishment in accordance with the judgements given to them to enact. They need to know a lot about anatomy, to visit corporeal and capital punishments effectively. It's not about power, it is about being the figurehead of state legal apparatus and not overstepping this. Also the position of executioner was something often reviled, something which - ironically - fitted the wolves because of the term. But I don't think people were thinking of what 'executioner' actually meant or can mean. It's not a negative, it's in fact an amazing circumscribed identity as a state actor. But I am not sure that GW writers have thought this through ... but in BL and in FW we trust!

Has anyone read Gene Wolfe's Book of the New Sun? It is probably one of the most important pieces of American science fiction and fantasy lit, a major influence on many writers including Neil Gaiman (see here and here), and it has one of the most interesting depictions of a state executioner who does overstep his mark within society. (googlebooks v. 1 link) At first one is horrified by the guild of the main character, severian, in much the same way one is at the Wolves. And then one explores outwith the tight, codified bounds of the Necropolis in which he lives. Anyway, I cannot help but recommend it - tis the most beautiful book, which VI and XV fans will both love (oral history, literature, etc...).

However I guess an issue with the Wolves as executioners is ... Prospero. Russ acts as judge in his offer to Magnus through Kasper - he will spare the civilians. But moments or hours later tries to obliterate everyone on the surface, and later does massacre the city's civilian population. What was the legal right to commit Guernica on them? This is something I ponder - although 'sanction' and 'compliance' within HH establish a poorly defined legal apparatus perhaps for what happens. However, I guess ... these terms need better definition to explain or justify according to imperial law what happens at Prospero - both Russ's offer and Russ's & the VI's ensuing actions.

[Legatus]

Well, that blurb from the Prospero material doesn't exactly sound very definitifely. They "took the role", and it was "whispered they were intended" for such and such.

 

"The supposition became ironclad truth when the Space Wolves were sent to bring the Thousand Sons to heel," - I.e.  after they had actually been sent to take out another Legion, the question if they had been intended for that purpose from the start became a purely academic one. (But then that's what we are here for.)

 

On the other hand that does seem to confirm that the Space Wolves had never been sent against another Legion before that. So they apparently had not been involved in taking out the Missing Legions. At least not in any official capacity.

[Runefyre]

Well, that blurb from the Prospero material doesn't exactly sound very definitifely. They "took the role", and it was "whispered they were intended" for such and such.

 

"The supposition became ironclad truth when the Space Wolves were sent to bring the Thousand Sons to heel," - I.e.  after they had actually been sent to take out another Legion, the question if they had been intended for that purpose from the start became a purely academic one. (But then that's what we are here for.)

 

On the other hand that does seem to confirm that the Space Wolves had never been sent against another Legion before that. So they apparently had not been involved in taking out the Missing Legions. At least not in any official capacity.

What it means is the Emperor never actually used them until prospero. Doesn't mean they weren't executioner's before then, just that they never acted in an official capacity until Prospero.

[Dantay VI]

Again that depends on the viewpoint of the writer.

 

Is the author privy to the internal machinations of the Imperium, the Legiones Astartes and the Emperor?

 

Or are they writing from the angle of a remembrancer / historian?

 

Curious, as my box is at home and I am in the middle of the sea... 13 days and counting :D

[Leif Bearclaw]

Well, that blurb from the Prospero material doesn't exactly sound very definitifely. They "took the role", and it was "whispered they were intended" for such and such.

 

"The supposition became ironclad truth when the Space Wolves were sent to bring the Thousand Sons to heel," - I.e.  after they had actually been sent to take out another Legion, the question if they had been intended for that purpose from the start became a purely academic one. (But then that's what we are here for.)

 

On the other hand that does seem to confirm that the Space Wolves had never been sent against another Legion before that. So they apparently had not been involved in taking out the Missing Legions. At least not in any official capacity.

Isn't that a tautology though?

 

Whatever the truth of the II and XI, it's buried, both in universe and out, behind a big wall of [redacted]. Therefore the Wolves (or anyone else for that matter) cannot be officially recognised as being involved with either Legion's fate, because anything 'official' on the subject doesn't exist. Doesn't mean it didn't happen, just that whatever the truth is, it's buried behind the [redacted]. So really, that statement confirms nothing about the fate of II and XI. It never was Ironclad truth that either Legion was ended by the VI, and it still isn't.

[Terminus]

Fulgrim: gave into hubris and pride leading his legion into betrayal

 

Kurze: butchered civilians and led his legion into a self fulfilling prophecy of betrayal

 

Dorn: didn't like the codex and suffered a breakdown for failing to protect the emperor

 

Yeh, they're all bad apples those three.

 

I was really worried we were having a nuanced discussion of the relativity of identity but I'm glad to see it's just a normal, I like x because of relative preferences so y sucks.

 

To add to the list,

 

Magnus: hubris and lack of moderation

 

Horus: hubris and insecurity

 

Alpharius: hubris and overplanning

 

Perturabo: bitterness and jealousy

 

Sanguinius: filthy mutant, but his head was in the right place

 

Russ: filthy mutant, as above except empty head but heart in right place

 

Lion: genius with asperger's syndrome

 

 

Lots of bad apples if we're picky, haha. Even guys like Vulkan, Ferrus, and Corax, who had no overwhelming flaws (even Ferrus's strength above all mentality is appreciable given circumstances), can be at most described as merely competent.  Really, as much as I hate to admit it, but Guilliman was the crowning achievement of the Primarch project, although it seems nurture had almost more to do with it than nature.

[Terminus]

However I guess an issue with the Wolves as executioners is ... Prospero. Russ acts as judge in his offer to Magnus through Kasper - he will spare the civilians. But moments or hours later tries to obliterate everyone on the surface, and later does massacre the city's civilian population. What was the legal right to commit Guernica on them? This is something I ponder - although 'sanction' and 'compliance' within HH establish a poorly defined legal apparatus perhaps for what happens. However, I guess ... these terms need better definition to explain or justify according to imperial law what happens at Prospero - both Russ's offer and Russ's & the VI's ensuing actions.

 

I will have to check out that book.  That said, it was stated in other sources that a Primarch of the Crusades had the right to liberate or destroy worlds as he saw fit.  That whole thing struck me as weird, because Kasper was never connected to Magnus despite Russ being so convinced (and talking to nobody with all his threats and offers).  Funny thing is, if he landed (which he was allowed to do unmolested), and actually didn't go into full on berserker murder all the civilians mode, Magnus probably would have stuck to his decision to submit. He only decided to step down because he could no longer tolerate the Wolves running roughshod through Tizca with their mutant degenerates leading the way.

[Runefyre]

Fulgrim: gave into hubris and pride leading his legion into betrayal

Kurze: butchered civilians and led his legion into a self fulfilling prophecy of betrayal

Dorn: didn't like the codex and suffered a breakdown for failing to protect the emperor

Yeh, they're all bad apples those three.

I was really worried we were having a nuanced discussion of the relativity of identity but I'm glad to see it's just a normal, I like x because of relative preferences so y sucks.

To add to the list,

Magnus: hubris and lack of moderation

Horus: hubris and insecurity

Alpharius: hubris and overplanning

Perturabo: bitterness and jealousy

Sanguinius: filthy mutant, but his head was in the right place

Russ: filthy mutant, as above except empty head but heart in right place

Lion: genius with asperger's syndrome

Lots of bad apples if we're picky, haha. Even guys like Vulkan, Ferrus, and Corax, who had no overwhelming flaws (even Ferrus's strength above all mentality is appreciable given circumstances), can be at most described as merely competent. Really, as much as I hate to admit it, but Guilliman was the crowning achievement of the Primarch project, although it seems nurture had almost more to do with it than nature.

Please stay on topic We're here to discuss the Space Wolves and Leman Russ.

However I guess an issue with the Wolves as executioners is ... Prospero. Russ acts as judge in his offer to Magnus through Kasper - he will spare the civilians. But moments or hours later tries to obliterate everyone on the surface, and later does massacre the city's civilian population. What was the legal right to commit Guernica on them? This is something I ponder - although 'sanction' and 'compliance' within HH establish a poorly defined legal apparatus perhaps for what happens. However, I guess ... these terms need better definition to explain or justify according to imperial law what happens at Prospero - both Russ's offer and Russ's & the VI's ensuing actions.

I will have to check out that book. That said, it was stated in other sources that a Primarch of the Crusades had the right to liberate or destroy worlds as he saw fit. That whole thing struck me as weird, because Kasper was never connected to Magnus despite Russ being so convinced (and talking to nobody with all his threats and offers). Funny thing is, if he landed (which he was allowed to do unmolested), and actually didn't go into full on berserker murder all the civilians mode, Magnus probably would have stuck to his decision to submit. He only decided to step down because he could no longer tolerate the Wolves running roughshod through Tizca with their mutant degenerates leading the way.

This thread is for civil discussion, I'd appreciate it if you'd refrain from negative adjectives for at least this once.

[Dantay VI]

There was a connection.

 

He had met with the 15th while doing excavations, they made a comment about his name being a joke.

 

Also the entity which appeared to him at Nikea, first appeared as a captain of the Thousand Sons and was driven off by the Space Wolves... Russ was ordered to go in guns blazing by Horus, whose perfidy was yet to be revealed, so he followed the orders of his Warmaster, the man who spoke with the full authority of the Emperor

 

And if Magnus had been connected to Hawser and had given himself up, then the bloodshed would have been avoided.

[Terminus]

Runefyre, can the absolutist nonsense and uncalled for butt-hurt, please... for at least this once. Russ was mentioned in the list and the post overall addressed the Space Wolves.

 

The Wolves literally utilized mutant degenerates as the first wave. There was no negative adjective use there, they were literal failed results of genetic experimentation used as shock troops.

 

---

 

Whatever connection Hauser had to the Sons was a Chaos set-up. Magnus never showed of being awareness of Hauser's existence nor did his inner circle. As for the warnings, you would think a complete lack of orbital defenses and a wide-open door to an undefended planet would have given him a hint, but Prospero Burns and other books have shown us that Fenris culture is very black and white with no option for middle grey areas.

 

Really no one is in the right here. Russ probably overstepped, but he had demon-Horus and Valdor whispering in his ear. And as Russ finally determined after soul searching in the aftermath, Magnus would have inevitably screwed up something big so needed to be dealt with. As it is I personally consider Magnus' wrecking the Webway Project to be the biggest long-term blow to the Emperor's ambitions. In the grand scheme the predations and atrocities of the other Traitors is fleeting small potatoes.

[Runefyre]

Runefyre, can the absolutist nonsense and uncalled for butt-hurt, please... for at least this once. Russ was mentioned in the list and the post overall addressed the Space Wolves.

 

The Wolves literally utilized mutant degenerates as the first wave. There was no negative adjective use there, they were literal failed results of genetic experimentation used as shock troops.

If your intent wasn't hostile (which most of the time isn't the case), then I apologize. It's not butt-hurt, it's a desire for civil conversation.

[Terminus]

Not hostile, I promise, just perhaps uncomfortably blunt and to the point. I blame the forum medium, in person I'm the most charming person you could ever meet. I'll try to add more smileys when speaking of Wolf degeneracy in the future. :D

[Petitioner's City]

However I guess an issue with the Wolves as executioners is ... Prospero. Russ acts as judge in his offer to Magnus through Kasper - he will spare the civilians. But moments or hours later tries to obliterate everyone on the surface, and later does massacre the city's civilian population. What was the legal right to commit Guernica on them? This is something I ponder - although 'sanction' and 'compliance' within HH establish a poorly defined legal apparatus perhaps for what happens. However, I guess ... these terms need better definition to explain or justify according to imperial law what happens at Prospero - both Russ's offer and Russ's & the VI's ensuing actions.

I will have to check out that book. That said, it was stated in other sources that a Primarch of the Crusades had the right to liberate or destroy worlds as he saw fit. That whole thing struck me as weird, because Kasper was never connected to Magnus despite Russ being so convinced (and talking to nobody with all his threats and offers). Funny thing is, if he landed (which he was allowed to do unmolested), and actually didn't go into full on berserker murder all the civilians mode, Magnus probably would have stuck to his decision to submit. He only decided to step down because he could no longer tolerate the Wolves running roughshod through Tizca with their mutant degenerates leading the way.

True, I can believe that. However that is not what Russ or the VI do. Russ speaks to Kasper, thinking Magnus can hear. He is probably talking to the Amon daemon. Magnus does not know. Why not send a direct message? Instead, having been 'ignored' by Magnus, and tempted into action by Horus and - according to the thoughts of Wyrdmake - Valdor (who didn't like Magnus or was not liked by Magnus according to ATS) the Wolves open their assault with no warning or demand for surrender. They obliterate orbital platforms - which, if Prospero is like Terra, for example, included a lot of civilians. They surface bomb the planet - Tizca is unlikely to be the only city on the planet. They would have obliterated Tizca if there was no kine shield - unknown to the Wolves and their allies. Ultimately Russ goes not only Guernica - he goes Hiroshima on Tizca. Yet unlike those two uses of weapons of mass destruction in our history there is no 'point' in the overwhelming destruction beyond total obliteration. there is no one else to see. It is absolute death - and in our modern eyes a crime against all the population to Prospero.

The events that lead to this, from the Wolves' and Russ's perspectives, are still ... clouded. But the question of what constitutes justified sanction are what elude me. To reach one man/being, obliterate everyone on a planet?

Yet maybe Valdor, in his sinister changing to Russ's orders, is the following:

The central conceit of [Master of Mankind] comes down to this: As a Custodian, are you fighting for the Emperor's life, or for his vision? Are you fighting for the man himself, or what he wants to achieve? And where do those two ideals diverge, if at all? What if the Emperor started to tell you everything, though? How would that affect your perspective?

Valdor sees Magnus as the threat. And he doesn't care about the Prosperines, or sees them also as threats.

The VI's reaction is easier also - they see the Prosperines as tainted completely by malificarium - hence why the opening village scene parallels both the fight against the Quietude and the massacre on Prospero. Murdermake must happen for the seemingly simple-minded VI, represented by Ohthere and his black-and-white world view in ATS and more complexly in PB.

Yet Russ ... how could he be justified to wipe out millions or billions of innocent civilians, without fair warning, only a tainted psychic warning? That is what hurts. But then these godly men are fallen and fallible - and each is as much monster as hero. It is just hard to accept, since so much could have been avoided - as RaptorR says here,'The biggest impediment to understanding the past is that we know their future.' Except here the biggest impediment I have for sympathising with the VI and their primarch, despite how magnificent PB is (and it is my favourite HH novel), is that they do the most monstrous thing. And it is horrific.

Yet it is typical of what the Emperor had the legions do for 200 years .... Resulting in pain in my heart and my head! We imagine ourselves in a dystopia, I think. Even in 30K, even before the Heresy.

Not hostile, I promise, just perhaps uncomfortably blunt and to the point. I blame the forum medium, in person I'm the most charming person you could ever meet. I'll try to add more smileys when speaking of Wolf degeneracy in the future.

[Ps, if the gifs are too much - apologies!]

[Knight of the Raven]

Being charming doesn't mean you won't blood eagle someone you don't like and murder their entire bloodline. Just saying.

Yet Russ ... how could he be justified to wipe out millions or billions of innocent civilians, without fair warning, only a tainted psychic warning?

As you implied, all the legions wiped out trillions of innocents for the crime of not being humans, not being human enough or refusing to bow to the biggest tyrant the Milky Way ever spawned. Prospero's no different.

For those who read Wolf King, does Russ regret murdering several planets' worth of population in his quest to erase the Thousand Sons from history, or does he only regret hurting a brother?

[Terminus]

Yet it is typical of what the Emperor had the legions do for 200 years .... Resulting in pain in my heart and my head! We imagine ourselves in a dystopia, I think. Even in 30K, even before the Heresy.

Not hostile, I promise, just perhaps uncomfortably blunt and to the point. I blame the forum medium, in person I'm the most charming person you could ever meet. I'll try to add more smileys when speaking of Wolf degeneracy in the future.

[Ps, if the gifs are too much - apologies!]

Watching the span of human evolution, the Emperor learned that you can't make an omelet without breaking a hundred billion eggs. It's a conclusion I frequently reach myself when playing Civilization and coming across Ghandi.

Regarding the gifs, what anime is #1? Seems familiar. Regarding #2, you wouldn't catch me dead sporting a Van Dyke (maybe a Balbo if I was lazy that week and/or recently saw Iron Man), and my bar is stocked with far more than fruity ports and cognacs, but otherwise yes!

Being charming doesn't mean you won't blood eagle someone you don't like and murder their entire bloodline. Just saying.

Also yes.

For those who read Wolf King, does Russ regret murdering several planets' worth of population in his quest to erase the Thousand Sons from history, or does he only regret hurting a brother?

He regrets allowing himself to be used and manipulated, he doesn't have a problem with what he actually did per se.

[Jarl Kjaran Coldheart]

I personally believe Russ was fully justified in his actions.

 

His personal warning aside, the destruction of Prospero and all life in it are on Magnus. The Edict of Nikea ended with a clear declaration of what would occur if the Edict was violated.

Magnus was fully aware of the consequences of his actions.

Magnus then returned home and said "screw it, I know better".

 

 

@Knight of the Raven: i didn't pick up any regret from Russ in my readings of the Wolf King over the fate of the citizens of Prospero

By the perspective of his legion, they all shared the taint of the warp and deserved their fate.

He regrests being a pawn, and not being at the Dropsite Massacre

[Terminus]

You can't really use Nikea to justify Russ's actions when out of all the Legions who flaunted that edict (and there were quite a lot), Space Wolves were the most flagrant about it.  Really the assault on Prospero is as brutal and mindless as the opening scenes of Prospero Burns, where one tribe of Fenrisians murders every man, woman and child of another tribe because a ship crash landed near their huts. Maleficarum nooo!

 

But yes, Perturabo and Kurze destroyed their own home planets and neither of those actions was officially condemned until they declared for Horus.  Like I said before, a Primarch of the Crusades can destroy civilizations as he sees fit. If something is not illegal, can it still be immoral?  Can we judge the morality of creatures like Primarchs anyway?  What human characteristics they carry are magnified to Greek mythology epic levels. To paraphrase an Eldar quote, trust not in their appearance, for the Primarchs are as alien to good, honest men as the vile Tyranids and savage Orks.

 

I don't think culturally the Space Wolves have anything to feel guilty about over their actions.  Their cultures are ideologically on opposite spectrums. For Prosperans, all knowledge is good, and the only evil is ignorance.  Whereas the Space Wolves, with their oral traditions and maleficarum paranoias, are a culture that practices wilful ignorance. It's better not to know, because knowing the wrong thing will kill you and everyone around you as surely as an invading army.  Plus life on Fenris doesn't allow for much scientific endeavor.  Life is brutal and short, so you have nothing but to do what you feel is right and live by your convictions.  Magnus was living by his convictions by flaunting the edit, so we can judge him no more for his pride than Russ for his aggression.

 

It's easy to feel sympathy for the Sons and judge the Wolves given that we are all civilized members of a 21st century society, but the actual presence of Chaos and the Warp lends quite a bit of credence to the Fenris philosophy. And as we discussed, the mentality of the Imperium had no objection to punching the crap out of anyone who refused their philosophy, even when the opposition could be deemed objectively "good" (like that Human/Xenos kumbaya culture Horus destroyed, or that planet the Wolves saved form Dark Eldar and promptly turned against because they just wanted to be left alone without outside interference).

[Knight of the Raven]

Thanks for the answers.

From my understanding though, the Edict of Nikea was engineered by the Ruinous Powers to rob the legions of their most potent defense against daemons, so I'm still a bit uppity about the Thousand Sons' fate, even with the former 'Sorcery is bad, but psykers are a-okay!' definition of the edict.

What I blame Magnus most for, though, is not wiping out the Space Wolves.

(I'd have loved to see an independent attack from the other psyker haters - Corax, Mortarion and whomever else - on Prospero though... )

[Runefyre]

Thanks for the answers.

From my understanding though, the Edict of Nikea was engineered by the Ruinous Powers to rob the legions of their most potent defense against daemons, so I'm still a bit uppity about the Thousand Sons' fate, even with the former 'Sorcery is bad, but psykers are a-okay!' definition of the edict.

What I blame Magnus most for, though, is not wiping out the Space Wolves.

Yet I (and I know I'm not alone in the SW's community) don't feel like the Tsons should be wiped out at all. That would deprive a whole fanbase of their favorite faction.

Also, the Edict of Nikea clearly had benefits as well as drawbacks. Clearly the Tsons weren't capable of controlling their warp capabilities (they would have killed themselves off already if it weren't for a certain deal with Tzeentch). Would the Emperor want every legion to just dabble in warp craft like the Tsons? Note I still hate the current rendition of the Edict, as it did away with the old "sorcerer bad, librarian good" idiology. This gave it a much more temperate feel rather than an idiotic (as warp-craft is definitely necessary when fighting the Archenemy).

[Petitioner's City]

Really the assault on Prospero is as brutal and mindless as the opening scenes of Prospero Burns, where one tribe of Fenrisians murders every man, woman and child of another tribe because a ship crash landed near their huts. Maleficarum nooo!

 

This is exactly the issue with Prospero! It's taint by association. There is no good reason for it, really, no justification - when Nikaea didn't suggest that what happens at Prospero is the legal output. But it's why that opening quarter of Prospero Burns is so important for trying to explain what the VI do. Nevertheless within the real world, aerial bombing in the manner of Prospero has been a war crime since WW2 (although not during it). I think we have to understand the lens Graham was using - and deliberately so - when writing the scenes first of bombing and then genocide in ATS. And indeed, it was genocide. And whilst genocidaires will justify their actions in some black-and-white narrative where the other side is guilty, unnecessary, a stain, tainted, perverse, etc., we know there is never a reason for it to be right? 

 

PS, the anime i Hiroyuki Okiura's and Mamoru Oshii's 1999 Jin-Roh: The Wolf Brigade:

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9hBNGn32Ra8

 

Gotta love Wolf imagery! Also some lovely lines about Wolves in the movie. 'Do you want to leave the pack and live among the humans? But you know, even if a wolf takes guise of a man and lives among them he can never be human'.

[Kol Saresk]

Thanks for the answers.

From my understanding though, the Edict of Nikea was engineered by the Ruinous Powers to rob the legions of their most potent defense against daemons, so I'm still a bit uppity about the Thousand Sons' fate, even with the former 'Sorcery is bad, but psykers are a-okay!' definition of the edict.

What I blame Magnus most for, though, is not wiping out the Space Wolves.

(I'd have loved to see an independent attack from the other psyker haters - Corax, Mortarion and whomever else - on Prospero though... )

Well, Mortarion did try attacking the White Scars while they were on Prospero. Does that count?