Space Wolves (and Leman Russ) Identity Discussion

[Petitioner's City]

Thanks for the answers.

From my understanding though, the Edict of Nikea was engineered by the Ruinous Powers to rob the legions of their most potent defense against daemons, so I'm still a bit uppity about the Thousand Sons' fate, even with the former 'Sorcery is bad, but psykers are a-okay!' definition of the edict.

What I blame Magnus most for, though, is not wiping out the Space Wolves.

(I'd have loved to see an independent attack from the other psyker haters - Corax, Mortarion and whomever else - on Prospero though... )

Well, Mortarion did try attacking the White Scars while they were on Prospero. Does that count?

And indeed Scars concerns the Librarius and Magnus very much (plus Russ!).

[Terminus]

And indeed, it was genocide. And whilst genocidaires will justify their actions in some black-and-white narrative where the other side is guilty, unnecessary, a stain, tainted, perverse, etc., we know there is never a reason for it to be right?

PS, the anime i Hiroyuki Okiura's and Mamoru Oshii's 1999 Jin-Roh: The Wolf Brigade:

Ah, I knew it looked familiar. I miss cell-animation.

Anyway, I must disagree with you on this assertion. I think the Rout engaged more in pogrom than genocide, but semantics aside, both can be totally justified in the world of Warhammer. Chaos is real. Strong emotions can literally cause demons to materialize and your face. Check out Garro the Animation (first one only) for some good examples of this. The anime itself is not that great (the sequels even worse), but the way the antagonist monsters come to exist is very much 40K grimdark style.

The Wolves actually found themselves on the idealistic side of this argument some thousands of years later at the Battle for Armageddon. The actions of the Inquisition were absolutely correct for the situation, in big picture, long-term, objective terms, the risk posed by the soldiers exposed to Chaos outweighs the value of their individual lives (as shown by the few who managed to get away thanks to the Wolves and then caused destruction of the planets they fled to). But the Wolves again took a black and white approach that did not consider grey areas in between. The soldiers fought on our side and did so bravely, so they are bros. Period.

Funny how on Prospero and Armageddon, the Wolves went for complete opposite approaches on basically the same ideological decision, and I disagree with them both times. It was just not meant to be! And I'm such a big dog lover, too. Ah well.

[Dantay VI]

And yet it could have all been avoided if Magnus had shown restraint and reined in his sons instead of deliberately defying the edict.

 

The "Yes but..." argument is getting annoying

 

And it was not guilt by association, it was guilt by participation.

 

The Prosperines raised Magnus and helped him develop his powers and then support him when he outgrew them. They actively helped the Thousand Sons and moved amongst them. The Thousand Sons helped the Prosperines to harness their psychic talents and encouraged the mortals to develop their psyker powers believing it not to be a threat to humanity. They ALLOWED the maleficarum in willingly, so they shared its taint.

 

The Thousand Sons, even after the edict wilfully went against it ALONG with Magnus. They did not show restraint and they did not show respect. For example the marine who uses his psychic powers to clean his weapons rather than do it by hand.

 

Magnus was advised caution by his Father in using his powers and he proved to be arrogant & irresponsible, so the Emperor decided the safer option was to make them stop. They were told what would happen if they did not stop. And they blatantly ignored  the edict and carried on as if it had never happened.

 

Magnus' irresponsibility, arrogance and immaturity doomed his legion, just as much as the deal he made with Tzeentch.

 

Anyhoo this is completely off of the topic of the Wolves and Russ and their identity.

[Dantay VI]

As for Armageddon, they chose to protect those who fought the maleficarum, not embrace it.

 

I cannot imagine too many Prosperines were actively resisting the Sons before Russ came.

[Terminus]

Most Prosperans were simple humans living simple lives, raising families and hoping not to get their brains eaten by psionic beetles. It's guilt and taint by association. Because they weren't rioting and trying to kill the Thousand Sons for their maleficarum, they go in the pile too.

[Dantay VI]

So you willingly aid and abet a criminal it is a case of guilty by association, not participation?

[Terminus]

What they were doing was not a crime as far as they were concerned.  Why do the Wolves get a pass if that's the standard we're using?

[Petitioner's City]

So you willingly aid and abet a criminal it is a case of guilty by association, not participation?

You know guilt by association is a fallacious form of argument?

And that is exactly the kind of thinking which leads to pogroms and genocides!!!! I'd also add, that laws can be created which are wrong, and which are used a pretexts to genocide ... this happened in several countries in the 20th century. After those periods, the laws were seen to be wrong, and those who made them sometimes trialled - at Nuremberg, in the ICC, etc - and crimes against humanity identified.

To go back to the point I was making before this - the decision by Russ to engage in genocide or overwhelming force - that is far more interesting! This is a fictional setting. As long as we can all agree that in the real world this kind of action would be wrong - utterly wrong, I think that's good! Moving on, rather, in the fictional world - where does Russ move from taking Magnus into custody to sanctioning him by death to eliminating a world despite having the desire to save it .... ? That then concerns the idea of right vs wrong as well. And also the sense that Russ is a dystopian figure - in what is meant to be an utopian moment in time.

What they were doing was not a crime as far as they were concerned. Why do the Wolves get a pass if that's the standard we're using?

I think you guys are just going to fight over this, and not get anywhere I didn't realise people didn't see both sides of this coin, that it is a tragedy,

[Dantay VI]

It is Fenrisian thinking, it is why the Balt came to kill the Ascomanni, because they took in the maleficarum.

 

Besides as the law states (in Britain) ignorance is not a defence.

 

And as far as Prospero is are concerned the Emperor is the law. The Emperor told them to stop and they were told the consequences. They did not stop. No Prosperine told the Sons to stop. They aided and abetted the T-Sons in their avtivities and are therefore just as guilty in the eyes of the Imperium as the T-Sons.

[Dantay VI]

Russ went from taking Magnus into custody to the attempted eradication of the Thousand Sons, through the orders of Horus. The supposedly loyal Warmaster who spoke with the authority of the Emperor.

 

Horus subverted the orders because he was aware that Magnus knew what he had become. He was dangerous.

 

We do not know what passed between Russ and Horus but it must have been big. Hopefully it wil be revealed in Inferno.

[Kol Saresk]

And yet it could have all been avoided if Magnus had shown restraint and reined in his sons instead of deliberately defying the edict.

 

The "Yes but..." argument is getting annoying

 

And it was not guilt by association, it was guilt by participation.

 

The Prosperines raised Magnus and helped him develop his powers and then support him when he outgrew them. They actively helped the Thousand Sons and moved amongst them. The Thousand Sons helped the Prosperines to harness their psychic talents and encouraged the mortals to develop their psyker powers believing it not to be a threat to humanity. They ALLOWED the maleficarum in willingly, so they shared its taint.

 

The Thousand Sons, even after the edict wilfully went against it ALONG with Magnus. They did not show restraint and they did not show respect. For example the marine who uses his psychic powers to clean his weapons rather than do it by hand.

 

Magnus was advised caution by his Father in using his powers and he proved to be arrogant & irresponsible, so the Emperor decided the safer option was to make them stop. They were told what would happen if they did not stop. And they blatantly ignored the edict and carried on as if it had never happened.

 

Magnus' irresponsibility, arrogance and immaturity doomed his legion, just as much as the deal he made with Tzeentch.

 

Anyhoo this is completely off of the topic of the Wolves and Russ and their identity.

Actually, it isn't. Because the event of Prospero is integral to the Wolves. It's reasoning is integral. Because when you get down to it, both the Wolves and the Sons are both guilty aggressors and innocent victims.

 

For example, you said Prospero could have been avoided if Magnus reigned in his kids. One of the biggest lies in the settings. I mean literally, they did two things. They found out Erebus had corrupted Horus to Chaos, and they warned the Emperor about it. If anything, the Emperor probably wanted Magnus brought in by another Primarch so rumors about Horus' corruption could spread, not because he wanted to punish Magnus. If he wanted to do that, he could have just punished Magnus' astral form while it was right there under the palace.

 

But, then the Wolves show up, murder hundreds of thousands, if not millions of people for no reason, do to the Sons what Istvaan V did to the Iron Hands, and then they don't stop. They go from XV Legion fiefdom to XV Legion fiefdom, destroying anyone they can get their hands on until its two years later, the VI Legio is hiding out in a nevula and Russ realizes what a pawn he's been.

 

Because Prospero was unavoidable. Horus couldn't let Magnus know the truth of Davin and still be around. So he arranged for the "Imperium" to cover up his actions by finding a loyal Primarch with an axe to grind, sending him a daemon puppet that his ignorance leads him to believe to be a spy for Magnus, and all of these events lead to Russ attacking Prospero because he thinks Magnus launched the first blow by summoning a daemon onto his ship.

 

Saying that one side is somehow more guilty, or more at fault, than the other is a biased lie supported by fanboyism and well wishes. Both sides are guilty of participating in the events that led to Prospero and both sides are guilty of being too stupid to jump ship before it all exploded. Both sides are also not to blame for Prospero happening because both sides were pawns in a much larger game that neither became aware of until it was too late.

 

That's the identity of the Wolves; the people who paved the road to hell with good intentions because they were too prideful and naive to make the right choice when they needed to.

[Scribe]

What is an executioner?

 

Someone who is sanctioned by the state to kill prisoners.

 

The wolves as executioner is explained in this way. They are those who will do what is commanded, and will stop when told to.

 

This is contrasted by the:

 

World Eaters, who will do what is commanded, and stop when they are done killing.

Night Lords, who will maybe do what is commanded, and stop when they are done torturing.

 

There is nothing further to worry about that is not rampant speculation, wish listing, and fan bias. All three legions will perform unsavory actions, the differences line in their willingness or ability to stop.

[Jarl Kjaran Coldheart]

Terminus:

You can't really use Nikea to justify Russ's actions when out of all the Legions who flaunted that edict (and there were quite a lot), Space Wolves were the most flagrant about it.  

Okay, that excuse  doesnt work when you are a child, it surely doesnt work when you are an adult.

The Edict of Nikea, also known as the Trial of Magnus the Red, was a line in the sand which Magnus swan dove over. 

We dont know how or why the Wolves continued with their practices, and it makes little more sense when the Custodes and SoS travel with them to punish Magnus. I can only see a few options to make sense out of this, 
(1) The Wolves were somehow exempt from the Edict. I dislike this personally and we've seen nothing to support this and this stinks of exceptionalism.
(2) The Emperor, the Custodes and the SoS turned a blind eye to the Wolves Rune Priests. Also unlikely, because it again reeks of exceptionalism.

(3) There is more to the story than has been revealed. This makes the most sense, but stops us from making damning judgement to fit our point of view.

(4) Maybe Magnus wasnt being punished for breaking the Edict alone, but by the measures he took in breaking it. If I remember A Thousand Sons correctly, even the TS's were hesitant to use the spell Magnus wanted, and he still did it.

 

Whereas the Space Wolves, with their oral traditions and maleficarum paranoias, are a culture that practices wilful ignorance. It's better not to know, because knowing the wrong thing will kill you and everyone around you as surely as an invading army

I have to disagree again here. 

The Wolves arent "willfully ignorant" of the Warp. If anything, they seem well aware the Warp is alive and things inside want to eat them. The tribes of Fenris still have their Gothi (Priest class), and they teach the tribes to be wary of the Warp. the Rune Priests of the Wolves use the Warp with caution. Thats the key right there. Caution.

The psykers of the White Scars practice caution of the Warp, and have even warned the Thousand Sons of their arrogance/lack of control. The Thousand Sons, in their arrogance, believe the Warp something to be mastered and harnessed at will. The Wolves and White Scars show the Warp to be a tool to be respected and used in moderation.

 

Knight of the Raven:

I think Nikea was going to happen, and the behind the scene events discussed in Prospero Burns changed the outcome of the Edict. I dont believe the Emperor could rationally expect every Legion to disband their Librarius and return to as it was. I personally think he was coming to a different decision when his hand was forced by what everybody believed to be a spy planted by Magnus. 

 

 

The root of this problem is that we are trying to piece together a puzzle but missing several key pieces. It's impossible to come to a verdict because we are missing so much.

 

 

[Petitioner's City]

What is an executioner?

 

Someone who is sanctioned by the state to kill prisoners.

 

The wolves as executioner is explained in this way. They are those who will do what is commanded, and will stop when told to.

 

This is contrasted by the:

 

World Eaters, who will do what is commanded, and stop when they are done killing.

Night Lords, who will maybe do what is commanded, and stop when they are done torturing.

 

There is nothing further to worry about that is not rampant speculation, wish listing, and fan bias. All three legions will perform unsavory actions, the differences line in their willingness or ability to stop.

 

But my question, and my desire to focus on this terminology a page or two ago, was the sanction moving from Magnus to the broader population. And apparently a continuous war against XV fiefdoms (added by FW?), which would again mean civilian populations, to brutalise all elements associated with the XV.... You are right, they are unsavory. I wonder how Russ thinks about it. Do godlings think about the mortal in all this? I have found it interesting how Prospero is and is not remembered in Ahriman and Talon of Horus. Khayon is utterly melancholy about it all ... what about French's characters? What do you think of their longings or lack of longings for home? And their neighbours, long lost.

 

I am really excited for Inferno, and reading about the involvement of (a) the (dark?) Mechanicum, (b ) the Sons of Horus and (c ) the Custodes. Who and what led to these horrible events. What manipulated Russ? What did not manipulate him, and what choices did he make? I hope that Bligh et al. do not gloss over what a tragedy this is, for everyone involved! 

 

But, then the Wolves show up, murder hundreds of thousands, if not millions of people for no reason, do to the Sons what Istvaan V did to the Iron Hands, and then they don't stop. They go from XV Legion fiefdom to XV Legion fiefdom, destroying anyone they can get their hands on until its two years later, the VI Legio is hiding out in a nevula and Russ realizes what a pawn he's been.

 

Because Prospero was unavoidable. Horus couldn't let Magnus know the truth of Davin and still be around. So he arranged for the "Imperium" to cover up his actions by finding a loyal Primarch with an axe to grind, sending him a daemon puppet that his ignorance leads him to believe to be a spy for Magnus, and all of these events lead to Russ attacking Prospero because he thinks Magnus launched the first blow by summoning a daemon onto his ship.

 

Saying that one side is somehow more guilty, or more at fault, than the other is a biased lie supported by fanboyism and well wishes. Both sides are guilty of participating in the events that led to Prospero and both sides are guilty of being too stupid to jump ship before it all exploded. Both sides are also not to blame for Prospero happening because both sides were pawns in a much larger game that neither became aware of until it was too late.

 

It is fascinating to realise that - ultimatley - Magnus was loyal. Utterly loyal to the Throne. He was utterly prideful and didn't understand Nikaea. But he was loyal - unlike every other Traitor primarch (other than potentially the XX's primarchs). And Russ is the one, manipulated or not, to push him to traitordom. That is tragic! And I hope explored further. Well, we have two books coming soon about Magnus, and we have Inferno for the Imperial/Wolves's perspective. Most excellent. 

[Leif Bearclaw]

Actually no. Call me a biased fanboy all you like, but 'recent' fluff has pretty definitely established that someone was more guilty than any one else for Prospero. Magnus. ATS makes this abundantly apparent. He ignores the edict. Deliberately breaks the Emperor's wards to send his message. He is 100% responsible for there even being an opportunity for Horus to twist Russ' orders. This would be bad enough. However the revelation in ATS that Magnus had already sold himself and his Legion to Tzeencth to halt the flesh change is the final nail in the coffin imo. Especially the re-emergence of the flesh change before the Heresy kicks off in ATS, this actually makes me question how effective a loyal XV could really have been, they seem more like a time bomb than a long term asset. For all their good intentions, the XV was damned long before a single Wolf ship entered the Prospero system.

 

Was Prospero a tragedy? Yes, of course. But it's a tragedy where, ultimately, the buck stops with Magnus. Thanks to his hubris, he thought he knew what he was dealing with with the Warp, thought he knew better than the Emperor, and his Legion and world paid the price for his mistake.

 

 

 

 
But my question, and my desire to focus on this terminology a page or two ago, was the sanction moving from Magnus to the broader population. And apparently a continuous war against XV fiefdoms (added by FW?), which would again mean civilian populations, to brutalise all elements associated with the XV.... You are right, they are unsavory. I wonder how Russ thinks about it.

 

This actually makes perfect sense given the witchery unleashed by the Sons at Prospero. Warp power and corruption of that magnitude was a pretty big deal. Having uncovered corruption of that scale, of course all XV fiefs would come under suspicion, and even the 30k Imperium is not a forgiving place. By the time Prospero is done, the Sons have given the Wolves more than enough reason to judge anything they touched as irredeemably corrupt. Hence additional campaigns (which we really know next to nothing about at this time, so this is somewhat speculative), to make as thorough a job of it as possible, are a perfectly logical next step.

[Jarl Kjaran Coldheart]

Actually no. Call me a biased fanboy all you like, but 'recent' fluff has pretty definitely established that someone was more guilty than any one else for Prospero. Magnus. ATS makes this abundantly apparent. He ignores the edict. Deliberately breaks the Emperor's wards to send his message. He is 100% responsible for there even being an opportunity for Horus to twist Russ' orders. This would be bad enough. However the revelation in ATS that Magnus had already sold himself and his Legion to Tzeencth to halt the flesh change is the final nail in the coffin imo. Especially the re-emergence of the flesh change before the Heresy kicks off in ATS, this actually makes me question how effective a loyal XV could really have been, they seem more like a time bomb than a long term asset. For all their good intentions, the XV was damned long before a single Wolf ship entered the Prospero system.

Was Prospero a tragedy? Yes, of course. But it's a tragedy where, ultimately, the buck stops with Magnus. Thanks to his hubris, he thought he knew what he was dealing with with the Warp, thought he knew better than the Emperor, and his Legion and world paid the price for his mistake.

I'd agree, but it would be discounted as more fanboyism.

[Dantay VI]

Hawser was on ice for nearly 80 terran years I believe while the Wolves tried to work out who his handler was.

 

And not faboyism. Looking at it from a Fenrisian point of view.

 

I suggest you read apologists post again.

 

As to why the Emperor did not kill astral Magnus. Who knows neither FW nor BL have covered that.

 

The fact remains The Sons eere told to stop dabbling in sorcery.

They didn't. Magnus broke yhe edict. And also showed just how far they had gone in showing their hand with their Rubric.

 

Russ was guilty of following orders which were corrupted.

 

Magnus had good intentions but did it all wrong.

 

He broke the edict and brought it all down on himself.

 

And if nobody foloerd the rules we would have chaos.

 

Russ followed the rules as given to him.

[Terminus]

Scars fall right in the middle of the spectrum of Wolves and Sons when it comes to approach to the Warp.  Please don't lump the noble sons of the storm with Gothi demagogues.

[Dantay VI]

As White Scars have no bearing on this discussion why include them?

[Scribe]

As White Scars have no bearing on this discussion why include them?

 

Perhaps as they also ignored the edict did they not?

[Dantay VI]

And this topic is about Russ and the Wolves

Not the Scars in any way shape or form.

[Terminus]

As White Scars have no bearing on this discussion why include them?

If we follow your rigid interpretation, none of what is being discussed is on topic.

 

Because apparently discussing the various cultural differences between the Thousand Sons and Space Wolves, who are cultural opposites, and how those differences can both condem and absolve their actions, and shape the context of the Battle of Prospero, probably the most documented event in Space Wolves 30K lore, is all somehow off topic. Part of the discussion of their identity involves their attitude towards the Warp, and Scars are culturally the closest example we have of a unique non-Librarium sect of psychic warriors (who defended the Librarius Project), so their inclusion is relevant.

 

Wilful ignorance indeed.

[Dantay VI]

Not really wilful ignorance.

 

I already said this was off topic but kol saresk said Prospero was integral to the Wolves so I ran with it for a bit.

 

Discussing the Wolves attitude to the warp is fine but I fail to see how the Scars come into it.

 

So how did the venerable fifth help shape the Wolves & how they viewed things?

[Zeratil]

Actually no. Call me a biased fanboy all you like, but 'recent' fluff has pretty definitely established that someone was more guilty than any one else for Prospero. Magnus. ATS makes this abundantly apparent. He ignores the edict. Deliberately breaks the Emperor's wards to send his message. He is 100% responsible for there even being an opportunity for Horus to twist Russ' orders. This would be bad enough. However the revelation in ATS that Magnus had already sold himself and his Legion to Tzeencth to halt the flesh change is the final nail in the coffin imo. Especially the re-emergence of the flesh change before the Heresy kicks off in ATS, this actually makes me question how effective a loyal XV could really have been, they seem more like a time bomb than a long term asset. For all their good intentions, the XV was damned long before a single Wolf ship entered the Prospero system.

 

Was Prospero a tragedy? Yes, of course. But it's a tragedy where, ultimately, the buck stops with Magnus. Thanks to his hubris, he thought he knew what he was dealing with with the Warp, thought he knew better than the Emperor, and his Legion and world paid the price for his mistake.

 

 

 

 

But my question, and my desire to focus on this terminology a page or two ago, was the sanction moving from Magnus to the broader population. And apparently a continuous war against XV fiefdoms (added by FW?), which would again mean civilian populations, to brutalise all elements associated with the XV.... You are right, they are unsavory. I wonder how Russ thinks about it.

 

This actually makes perfect sense given the witchery unleashed by the Sons at Prospero. Warp power and corruption of that magnitude was a pretty big deal. Having uncovered corruption of that scale, of course all XV fiefs would come under suspicion, and even the 30k Imperium is not a forgiving place. By the time Prospero is done, the Sons have given the Wolves more than enough reason to judge anything they touched as irredeemably corrupt. Hence additional campaigns (which we really know next to nothing about at this time, so this is somewhat speculative), to make as thorough a job of it as possible, are a perfectly logical next step.

This is only one interpretation of events though, not THE interpretation of events. Certainly it can be your, that does not mean everyone else views these events in the manner you describe. Russ' legion are just as guilty of using sorcery/psychic powers as the Sons in violation of the edict if guilt is judged purely on the basis of 'did you violate the edict'. You're describing events as they happen, but the assigning of guilt is purely subjective and will depend upon each readers own point of view as to how justified or not various characters are in their actions.

 

Edit: That the wolves came to Prospero can only be laid at Magnus' feet, at least if we par down to Magnus/Sons and Russ/Wolves. Russ certainly had no part to play in that decision. Once Russ arrives at Prospero, the actions he takes there can only be laid at his feet, not at Magnus'. The 'guilt' (or innocence - if we wish to debate in those terms) of any party the the burning of Prospero is entirely subjective on what crimes you think that have committed, and whether they have exculpatory defence for those crimes.

[Terminus]

Not really wilful ignorance.

 

I already said this was off topic but kol saresk said Prospero was integral to the Wolves so I ran with it for a bit.

 

Discussing the Wolves attitude to the warp is fine but I fail to see how the Scars come into it.

 

So how did the venerable fifth help shape the Wolves & how they viewed things?

We are discussing cultural identity.  Cultural identity can only be discussed with a frame of reference of other cultures.  If we use our own culture, than the Wolves are easy to dismiss as mindless hypocritical barbarians.  That's boring, so we discuss their culture within the context of other Legions and the Imperium as a whole, as well as the realities of the Warhammer world.  That is interesting, yet you seem determined to stifle any avenue of discourse that can be even remotely interpreted as critical of the Wolves.  What do you really want from this thread beyond the Wolves' 40K byline?  "They are a belligerent band of brothers who sail the stars, kicking ass, taking names, and banging brews and broads with equal skill. Shaft: the Codex! Now with more werewolves!  That is equally boring.

 

Specifically when discussing Scars, they are a clear middle ground between the recklessness of the Thousand Sons and the superstition of the Wolves. So why do you automatically assume the Sons' approach is wrong and the Wolves' is just?  Maybe they are both wrong?  I mean, here we have another Legion that takes parts of both philosophies, and they have never betrayed the Imperium in their hubris nor murdered a planet on false pretenses.