Space Wolves (and Leman Russ) Identity Discussion

[Jarl Kjaran Coldheart]

@Dantay: If you feel any of this discussion is off topic please use the Report function and the moderating team will look into it. 

I feel as if things have progressed relatively smoothly so far, but as Im involved in the conversation, I wouldnt be part of that discussion.

 

@Terminus:

Scars fall right in the middle of the spectrum of Wolves and Sons when it comes to approach to the Warp.  Please don't lump the noble sons of the storm with Gothi demagogues.

 

Not really. the opposite end of the Warp spectrum would be somebody like the Death Guard, who eschew the Warp entirely. I've no doubt they see the Wolves use of Rune Priests as fouly as they do the White Scars or Thousand Son psykers.

But to agree to that much would get in the way of the bias displayed in the second sentence. 

 

The fact is the White Scars are one of the 3 Chapters to fully support the Librarian project but repeatedly state that the Thousand Sons go too far in their practice, and are laughed off as savages.

If the guy that has your back says you're wrong, maybe its time to reconsider your actions.

 

and I again put forward that it may not be the breaking of the Edict that warrants the Emperor's attention, but the severity of it.

 

 

  I mean, here we have another Legion that takes parts of both philosophies, and they have never betrayed the Imperium in their hubris nor murdered a planet on false pretenses.

 

That we know of.

 

Part of their whole thing is that nobody pays attention to them for long stretches of time.

[Terminus]

It's pretty clear I am talking about Legions that actually utilize the Warp.  But sure, the Guard may despise them all equally, but Wolves are a lot closer to that negative end of the spectrum than the other Legions we're discussing.

 

And yes, there is no doubt that Magnus screwed the pooch when his closest advisor and son was like "dad, this is like, a veeeery bad idea".  Magnus was going through much the same existential crisis Lorgar was thrown into, everything he dedicated his life to was just declared worthless by the Emperor.  Except unlike Lorgar who decided to look for answers elsewhere, Magnus determined to prove the Emperor wrong.

 

Regarding Russ's culpability, if there is such a thing, he was spoiling for a fight with Magnus for a long time before Nikea (like that planet where Lorgar had to step between the two).  Whatever the Warmaster may have said, he was a first among equals, and no Primarch was obliged to follow his orders if they didn't want to (Corax and Alpharius jump immediately to mind).  Russ built his whole "executioner" identity on rigid loyalty to the Emperor, and the Emperor gave him very specific instructions.  He also had evidence that something was amiss given the lack of resistance from Magnus, yet no actual attempt to communicate with Magnus to see if he would come along peacefully was made.  Talking to Hauser doesn't count because that was unsubstantiated conjecture borne of his naturally suspicious and hostile nature towards the Thousand Sons.

[Legionnaire of the VIIth]

I'm not as well versed in the Horus Heresy books and such so I have to ask (as it was brought up that ignorance is no excuses), do the Space Wolves view ignorance as being an acceptable reason to excuse one's actions?

 

If they see it as not being excusable they should feel guilty about what they did as the only justification that can be used is that they were ignorant of the actual orders issued by the Emperor, orders they failed to follow do to ignorance. To not allow ignorance to be an excuse but to excuse their actions done out of ignorance would be hypocritical. If they do see ignorance as an excuse then I guess they would view their actions as completely warranted in retrospect and would see no reason to feel remorse or guilt for what they do because they were ignorant of the actual mission they were dispatched to.

[Jarl Kjaran Coldheart]

It's pretty clear I am talking about Legions that actually utilize the Warp.  But sure, the Guard may despise them all equally, but Wolves are a lot closer to that negative end of the spectrum than the other Legions we're discussing.

 

And yes, there is no doubt that Magnus screwed the pooch when his closest advisor and son was like "dad, this is like, a veeeery bad idea".  Magnus was going through much the same existential crisis Lorgar was thrown into, everything he dedicated his life to was just declared worthless by the Emperor.  Except unlike Lorgar who decided to look for answers elsewhere, Magnus determined to prove the Emperor wrong.

 

Regarding Russ's culpability, if there is such a thing, he was spoiling for a fight with Magnus for a long time before Nikea (like that planet where Lorgar had to step between the two).  Whatever the Warmaster may have said, he was a first among equals, and no Primarch was obliged to follow his orders if they didn't want to (Corax and Alpharius jump immediately to mind).  Russ built his whole "executioner" identity on rigid loyalty to the Emperor, and the Emperor gave him very specific instructions.  He also had evidence that something was amiss given the lack of resistance from Magnus, yet no actual attempt to communicate with Magnus to see if he would come along peacefully was made.  Talking to Hauser doesn't count because that was unsubstantiated conjecture borne of his naturally suspicious and hostile nature towards the Thousand Sons.

 

If it was pretty clear than I never would have brought them up. 

I didnt find it clear and figured, for everybody's sake, the entire spectrum should be mentioned.

 

and your perception of the Wolves has them at the negative end of the spectrum. In Fear to Tread we have great communication between a Rune Priest and Blood Angel Librarian. There was no hostility, posturing, anything indicative of bias, hatred or anger.

So there is evidence in the books about Wolves not hating every psyker, just reckless ones. That's important. 

 

On Skrike, the Thousand Sons protected the library of a species marked for destruction in a campaign being conducted by the Wolves that the TS were late to, ignoring multiple requests to come. Then the TS use their abilities to halt the Wolves from destroying the library and causing injury to several and a spontaneous mutation in their own ranks, confirming what Russ thought about Magnus. Russ suspected sorcery and saw what would appear to any rational being as sorcery. That's hardly spoiling for a fight. 

 

Unless you were in the room when Russ's orders were given, or read a book where they are explained in detail, your hypothesizing again.

 

And Hauser was thought by the Custodes, Fulgrim (at Nikea) and everybody who interacted with him to be a pawn of Magnus. They were right at his being a pawn, just wrong about who was the master. Russ was actually going against his orders (however altered they were) and trying to bring in Magnus quietly.

[Dantay VI]

Okay.

 

I do not believe I am trying to stifle things bit of I am then I apologise.

 

As for dont lump noble Scars with gothi demagogues could be seen as inflamatory by some.

 

I didnt and I believe I have been civil through out.

 

I do recall a quote earlier in the topic ehere it ws said that a stranger offers a cup. the wolf knocks it away and curses the stranger. the t-son drinks deep and the scar sips a little, thanks the stranger and goes on and leaves.

 

The OP was to discuss the cultural identity of the Wolves and of Russ.

 

Not all the legions of the time. Prospero was a defining moment for both Wolves and Sons. And part of that is based around their culture and beliefs.

 

I wasnt trying to pick a fight but as far as I can tell there is precious little information about how the Scars and Wolves get along beyond they were on opposing sides debating Nikea. I believe that at Nikea even the Scsrs thought Magnus had gone too far.

 

I like the fact that the storm seers and rune priests both believed in moderation with regards the warp and used it in more elemental ways.

 

I am not after the 40K by line and I have genuinely enjoyed yhe discourse apologist petitioners city & zeraktil (cool cat avatar dude).

 

I believe the Wolves like the vikings are far more advanced and sophisticated than they are portrayed much like the norse or vikings of old. I cant really portray it in words so I use dwarf weapons knotwork etc to show they are more thhan the barbarians they are perceived to be.

 

I perceive the Wolves as just but misguided in this case. THey did as any loyal son would do. It was a pity that his instruction was altered by someone he trusted and was twisted.

Something blinded Russ to this fact and maybe Inferno will explain more.

 

Just as I perceive that while Magnus was wrong for disobeying his father. And for his dealings with Tzeentch. For overstepping yhe mark in his studies of the esoteric and falling to the sin of pride. He was noble in his pursuits. Tizca was a paradise. but it was founded on a deal with Tzeeentch so was tainted from the start.

The rot could be seen when Tzeentch stepoed back and the power of the warp caused the flesh change it showed how damning the lie was, that yhe T-Sons were ever in control of the powers that they used.

 

The only way yhat the rune priests could come off as not being hypocrites, was hat they were never a part of yhe librarius program and therefore did not need to be disbanded.

After all did the edict ban all psyker barring navigators and adtropaths or did the edict purely disband the librarius?

 

Imagine how dangerous the librarius would have become sjhould the sons with their lack of self control become.

 

In contrast the Rune Priests preached caution. Not going too far and safeguards against maleficarum.

[Kol Saresk]

The Edict banned all Space Marines in the Legions from actively using their psychic powers. The semantics have been debated vigorously from applying only to those who were called Librarians, to those who were only members of the Librarius initiative conceived by the Khan, Magnus, and Sanguinius, to even including the debate that even in today's modern background it only means those who use sorcery.

 

While the titles and names can be used for semantics, it does nothing to stop the fact that 17 different Legions believed the Edict meant "no psychic powers" and that all psykers were to form up in the front lines alongside their brethren and act as "normal" Astartes. Of those 17, five knowingly disobeyed the Edict. Those five were the Imperial Fists(who imprisoned their psykers), the Thousand Sons, the White Scars(who isolated their White Scars to Chogoris for safe haven), the Word Bearers(who reorganized their Librarius into the Chapter of the Void to conduct warp-technology R&D), and the World Eaters(who just hated their psykers).

 

It's possible that some of the other Traitor Legions were conducting activities that would have been considered violations of the Edict but I don't recall anything concrete off the top of my head.

 

The one Legion remaining who believed the Edict did not apply to them(whether it be honest mistake or willful misconduct) would be the Space Wolves. But the fact they lied about their Rune Priests holding on to their psyker hoods as being for sentimental reasons, it means that the Wolves were aware that everyone else(like literally, the rest of the Imperium) believed the Edict also included the Wolves' Rune Priests.

 

And that is why both sides are wrong and neither is right. Did Magnus violate the Edict? Yes. But by everyone's account outside the VI Legion, so did the VI Legion. Does the magnitude of their violations keep one from being "as wrong" as the other? Maybe, but I honestly couldn't care about the technicalities of that debate. They both broke faith in an Edict they both believed they were subject to.

 

When both sides came together for reconciliation, both behaved like idiots. Magnus blinded his Sons, who treated the Wolves like unwarranted aggressors. Russ tried to plead for Magnus' surrender not via vox-channel, astropath, or heck, even using his psykers to talk to their psykers, but by talking to some dude who they believed to be a spy for Magnus without having any concrete evidence to the fact. Much like how we Americans in the 1960's thought anyone who spoke Russian and wore red must surely be Soviet spies.

 

Surprisingly though, both sides are still victims.

 

Because their identities, their personalities are that they are both prideful Legions who believed with every single fiber of their being that they were doing the right thing.

 

That's why I'm saying defending the Sons while condemning the Wolves is fanboyism. That's why I'm saying protecting the Wolves while persecuting the Sons is fanboyism.

 

Because it ignores the concrete fact that both sides were wrong. And, funnily enough, they were both wrong in the same ways.

[b1soul]

 

What now? That's been confirmed?

 

In the Burning of Prospero box-set booklet, it explicitly states it. and I quote:

 

"As the Great Crusade unfolded, the Space Wolves took the role of the Emperor's Executioners. Some whispered they were intended as the bringers of ultimate vengeance should any Legion stray from the light. The supposition became ironclad truth when the Space Wolves were sent to bring the Thousand Sons to heel, no matter the cost to their Legion or to their home world. It was an order carried out with full and unstoppable zeal.

Emperor sent Russ to arrest

 

Horus changed those order to "destroy"

 

They were never sent by the Emp to destroy the TSons

[Legionnaire of the VIIth]

 

 

What now? That's been confirmed?

In the Burning of Prospero box-set booklet, it explicitly states it. and I quote:

 

"As the Great Crusade unfolded, the Space Wolves took the role of the Emperor's Executioners. Some whispered they were intended as the bringers of ultimate vengeance should any Legion stray from the light. The supposition became ironclad truth when the Space Wolves were sent to bring the Thousand Sons to heel, no matter the cost to their Legion or to their home world. It was an order carried out with full and unstoppable zeal.

Emperor sent Russ to arrest

 

Horus changed those order to "destroy"

 

They were never sent by the Emp to destroy the TSons

 

The quoted material, I read as saying, should Magnus and his legion not surrender to the Space Wolves, they were to do what ever was needed in order to bring Magnus before the Emperor no matter the cost in Thousand Sons legion lives or damage to Prospero.

 

The quote is from the Horus Heresy Burning of Prospero box booklet on page 6.

[Kol Saresk]

 

 

 

 

What now? That's been confirmed?

In the Burning of Prospero box-set booklet, it explicitly states it. and I quote:

 

"As the Great Crusade unfolded, the Space Wolves took the role of the Emperor's Executioners. Some whispered they were intended as the bringers of ultimate vengeance should any Legion stray from the light. The supposition became ironclad truth when the Space Wolves were sent to bring the Thousand Sons to heel, no matter the cost to their Legion or to their home world. It was an order carried out with full and unstoppable zeal.

Emperor sent Russ to arrest

 

Horus changed those order to "destroy"

 

They were never sent by the Emp to destroy the TSons

The quoted material, I read as saying, should Magnus and his legion not surrender to the Space Wolves, they were to do what ever was needed in order to bring Magnus before the Emperor no matter the cost in Thousand Sons legion lives or damage to Prospero.

 

The quote is from the Horus Heresy Burning of Prospero box booklet on page 6.

The problem is that Magnus did surrender and was just waiting for communications, Russ kept talking to some dude, and then when Magnus didn't respond to Russ through the dude, Russ began bombing Prospero, the Sons began defending themselves, and Magnus waited for the killing blow until he decided there had been too much unnecessary violence.

 

So maybe there was a contingency for the Wolves to commit genocide if Magnus didn't surrender. But let's not pretend that those conditions were ever truly met.

[Legionnaire of the VIIth]

The problem is that Magnus did surrender and was just waiting for communications, Russ kept talking to some dude, and then when Magnus didn't respond to Russ through the dude, Russ began bombing Prospero, the Sons began defending themselves, and Magnus waited for the killing blow until he decided there had been too much unnecessary violence.

So maybe there was a contingency for the Wolves to commit genocide if Magnus didn't surrender. But let's not pretend that those conditions were ever truly met.

I wasn't trying to say that Russ wasn't negligent if he was truly attempting to get Magnus to surrender to him despite his changed orders. I was only trying to say that I read the part about the Space Wolves doing damage to the legion and planet being in relation to Magnus not surrendering (when speaking of the Emperor's orders not the changed ones)

[Kol Saresk]

 

The problem is that Magnus did surrender and was just waiting for communications, Russ kept talking to some dude, and then when Magnus didn't respond to Russ through the dude, Russ began bombing Prospero, the Sons began defending themselves, and Magnus waited for the killing blow until he decided there had been too much unnecessary violence.

 

So maybe there was a contingency for the Wolves to commit genocide if Magnus didn't surrender. But let's not pretend that those conditions were ever truly met.

I wasn't trying to say that Russ wasn't negligent if he was truly attempting to get Magnus to surrender to him despite his changed orders. I was only trying to say that I read the part about the Space Wolves doing damage to the legion and planet being in relation to Magnus not surrendering (when speaking of the Emperor's orders not the changed ones)

Fair enough, and apologies. Many of my niceties are hard to find nowadays.

[Plaguecaster]

 

 

 

 

What now? That's been confirmed?

In the Burning of Prospero box-set booklet, it explicitly states it. and I quote:

 

"As the Great Crusade unfolded, the Space Wolves took the role of the Emperor's Executioners. Some whispered they were intended as the bringers of ultimate vengeance should any Legion stray from the light. The supposition became ironclad truth when the Space Wolves were sent to bring the Thousand Sons to heel, no matter the cost to their Legion or to their home world. It was an order carried out with full and unstoppable zeal.

Emperor sent Russ to arrest

 

Horus changed those order to "destroy"

 

They were never sent by the Emp to destroy the TSons

The quoted material, I read as saying, should Magnus and his legion not surrender to the Space Wolves, they were to do what ever was needed in order to bring Magnus before the Emperor no matter the cost in Thousand Sons legion lives or damage to Prospero.

 

The quote is from the Horus Heresy Burning of Prospero box booklet on page 6.

Yeah Magnus and the Sons didn't get any chances at all the wolves attacked as soon as they arrived after all Magnus pretty much resigned himself to his fate sealing him off in his tower and blocking his legion from knowing the wolves were even coming. Can you really consider a little booklet from a board game cannon especially when other source material is different, does it mention Horus changed the orders in the first place.

 

Edit: damn I'm slow beaten to the punch

[Terminus]

I don't consider anything in that board game to be relevant compared to HH novels and FW black books.  I basically rank it HH Novels ~= FW Black Books > non-HH BL Novels > GW Codex/Campaign Fluff > Board Games and 3rd party tie-ins.

[Legionnaire of the VIIth]

It does mention that Prospero being burned was one of Horus' schemes to weaken those who would have remained loyal to the Emperor. I don't really see where anything in the board game's material runs counter to the event as portrayed in the novels, do you actually think that the Emperor's orders would have been, 'if Magnus doesn't surrender just leave empty handed'?

[Wolf Lord Loki]

I hatte tags. I may or may not repost it. Basically, Executioner means "someone who executes; especially by putting someone to death" and I think the Emperor meant it for the Wolves to be his personal right hand while Russ took it to be the guy who puts down all the problem people.

This is the identity that i subscribe to for my wolves.

I dont so much see them as executioners of astartes but of problem situations.

 

Like the complicance they fought in Prospero Burns. The Imperial army were stuck waiting a war they couldnt win. The Wolves arrived and offered them a solution. "we will execute the problem for you"

 

They crashed what was effectively a small mood into the planet and murdered what was left of the xenos.

 

Problem sorted. Not cleanly, but completely removed.

 

We execute problems. This civil war....big problem...could take us a while....

[Petitioner's City]

 

 

 

 

What now? That's been confirmed?

In the Burning of Prospero box-set booklet, it explicitly states it. and I quote:

 

"As the Great Crusade unfolded, the Space Wolves took the role of the Emperor's Executioners. Some whispered they were intended as the bringers of ultimate vengeance should any Legion stray from the light. The supposition became ironclad truth when the Space Wolves were sent to bring the Thousand Sons to heel, no matter the cost to their Legion or to their home world. It was an order carried out with full and unstoppable zeal.

Emperor sent Russ to arrest

 

Horus changed those order to "destroy"

 

They were never sent by the Emp to destroy the TSons

The quoted material, I read as saying, should Magnus and his legion not surrender to the Space Wolves, they were to do what ever was needed in order to bring Magnus before the Emperor no matter the cost in Thousand Sons legion lives or damage to Prospero.

 

The quote is from the Horus Heresy Burning of Prospero box booklet on page 6.

The problem is that Magnus did surrender and was just waiting for communications, Russ kept talking to some dude, and then when Magnus didn't respond to Russ through the dude, Russ began bombing Prospero, the Sons began defending themselves, and Magnus waited for the killing blow until he decided there had been too much unnecessary violence.

 

So maybe there was a contingency for the Wolves to commit genocide if Magnus didn't surrender. But let's not pretend that those conditions were ever truly met.

 

 

Excellent analysis. I think this is the problem I have with how things are depicted from Russ's POV. Maybe Gunn or Valdor or the SoH Captain/Herald or another hawk pushed him into the genocide approach, yet the truth of the matter is that Russ commits to overwhelming force and annihilation. And he did not really try to avoid it through any sensible means. The monstrosity of our heroes is fascinating - and when rereading both novels recently, really rammed home how little different the acts of the 'heroes' are from the 'villains' in our story. Is Prospero in output much different in situ from the planet massacred by the Sons of Horus in Nemesis or the destruction of Calth's populace in Know No Fear et al. or the murder of the home planets of the Iron Warriors or Night Lords, or many other worlds by the traitors? Other loyal monsters include Autek Mor and others like him. Really they aren't different; they murder billions of people for piss poor reasons. Each is a crime against humanity - arguably a war crime, as such crimes are defined today - and worth remembering that in the HH everyone is soiled. But the striking thing about Prospero like Olympia and the Night Lords one is that these events are pre-heresy, ultimately - before the true dystopia arrives. Russ embraces dystopian actions and goes overboard from everything we can understand. That's worrying, fascinating and must have reasons - how Inferno deals with it, when the series's authorial persona has condemned other similar situations, will be interesting.

[Leif Bearclaw]

Can we stop throwing around the war crime and crime against humanity labels? It's pointless, because every Astartes would be guilty by today's standards, loyalist or traitor. You don't even need to bring up events of the Heresy, Autek Mor etc. The very first event in the HH series, the pacification of 63-19, would also be a war crime by modern reckoning. Every Primarch and Legion, even the 'nice' ones like Magnus and Vulkan, are hideous butchers by modern standards, they've all ground uncounted 'innocent' worlds under their feet, even before the first whiff of the Heresy. While there is some level of nuance (for example, I wouldn't compare Olympia to Calth), branding some actors 'monsters' for doing the same actions as everyone else is needlessly emotive and achieves nothing. Are there 'monsters' in 30k? Yes, but they're forces like the NLs and WEs, who are extreme by the setting's standards, not the real world's.

[Marshal Rohr]

Can we stop throwing around the war crime and crime against humanity labels? It's pointless, because every Astartes would be guilty by today's standards, loyalist or traitor. You don't even need to bring up events of the Heresy, Autek Mor etc. The very first event in the HH series, the pacification of 63-19, would also be a war crime by modern reckoning. Every Primarch and Legion, even the 'nice' ones like Magnus and Vulkan, are hideous butchers by modern standards, they've all ground uncounted 'innocent' worlds under their feet, even before the first whiff of the Heresy. While there is some level of nuance (for example, I wouldn't compare Olympia to Calth), branding some actors 'monsters' for doing the same actions as everyone else is needlessly emotive and achieves nothing. Are there 'monsters' in 30k? Yes, but they're forces like the NLs and WEs, who are extreme by the setting's standards, not the real world's.

Doesn't that argument detract from the wolves as executioners argument? If everyone did it there nothing that makes the wolves self-imposed identity relevant. If anything, it makes them look worse, like calling yourself an artist for drawing a square.

[Leif Bearclaw]

 

Can we stop throwing around the war crime and crime against humanity labels? It's pointless, because every Astartes would be guilty by today's standards, loyalist or traitor. You don't even need to bring up events of the Heresy, Autek Mor etc. The very first event in the HH series, the pacification of 63-19, would also be a war crime by modern reckoning. Every Primarch and Legion, even the 'nice' ones like Magnus and Vulkan, are hideous butchers by modern standards, they've all ground uncounted 'innocent' worlds under their feet, even before the first whiff of the Heresy. While there is some level of nuance (for example, I wouldn't compare Olympia to Calth), branding some actors 'monsters' for doing the same actions as everyone else is needlessly emotive and achieves nothing. Are there 'monsters' in 30k? Yes, but they're forces like the NLs and WEs, who are extreme by the setting's standards, not the real world's.

Doesn't that argument detract from the wolves as executioners argument? If everyone did it there nothing that makes the wolves self-imposed identity relevant. If anything, it makes them look worse, like calling yourself an artist for drawing a square.

 

I don't think that's what I was saying, and if that's the message you took, then my bad.

 

My point was purely about the issue of using modern sensibilities to decry actions in 30/40k as war crimes or the perpetrators as 'monsters', as those labels could be applied to basically everyone in the story. In the context of the setting however, the Wolves are neither. 'Monster' or 'war criminal' aren't prerequisites for an executioner. While they practice a more brutal modus operandi than some Legions, it's still within the regular bounds of war for the setting. Burning worlds isn't a unique trait to the VI. What makes the Wolves appointed role of executioner stick is their lack of taboo about their targets/orders.

[Zeratil]

 

 

The fact is the White Scars are one of the 3 Chapters to fully support the Librarian project but repeatedly state that the Thousand Sons go too far in their practice, and are laughed off as savages.

 

 

As seen with Scars and Path to Heaven though the Thousand Sons are not the ones doing the laughing as far as I recall. From everything Ysuegi and Arvida say, the two legions have a lot of respect for each other, even if the Sons generally believe, during the crusade, that the White Scars caution is unwarranted. I don't recall any mention of them being laughed off as savages by any of the Thousand Sons. the fact that both legions consider themselves 'outsiders' to may of the others probably helps foster cooperation with things like the librarius project.

 

 

As for the executioners label I don't think questions of war crimes are relevant to it in the context of 30k. The Wolves-as-executioners aren't distrusted because they're seen as immoral, they're distrusted because of the rumours that they are the legion most tasked with extermination recidivism in the nascent Imperium, including, possibly, the IInd and XIth (although that's not why the Sons/Magnus dislike them from the source material). Many groups in the Imperium (not just the legions importantly) would fear the Wolves being sent for them, especially given the brutality of many of their compliances and attacks. As well as being suspicious or even jealous as to why Russ and the Wolves were marked for this task. This is likely exacerbated by the 'character' of Russ and his legion and the perception of them as savages, but the distrust would have been laid upon any legion around which rumours of them being 'executioners' were spoken of. Given that the Emperor seems to have wanted any such force to be some of the most savage he had command of (the Warhounds being rumoured as the 'original' executioner legion) this is all fairly unsurprising.

 

Can we stop throwing around the war crime and crime against humanity labels? It's pointless, because every Astartes would be guilty by today's standards, loyalist or traitor. You don't even need to bring up events of the Heresy, Autek Mor etc. The very first event in the HH series, the pacification of 63-19, would also be a war crime by modern reckoning. Every Primarch and Legion, even the 'nice' ones like Magnus and Vulkan, are hideous butchers by modern standards, they've all ground uncounted 'innocent' worlds under their feet, even before the first whiff of the Heresy. While there is some level of nuance (for example, I wouldn't compare Olympia to Calth), branding some actors 'monsters' for doing the same actions as everyone else is needlessly emotive and achieves nothing. Are there 'monsters' in 30k? Yes, but they're forces like the NLs and WEs, who are extreme by the setting's standards, not the real world's.

Doesn't that argument detract from the wolves as executioners argument? If everyone did it there nothing that makes the wolves self-imposed identity relevant. If anything, it makes them look worse, like calling yourself an artist for drawing a square.

 

[Marshal Rohr]

An executioner is the embodiment of the state's monopoly of violence. The legal authority to take life rests with the state, and the executioner impersonally delivers the blow. If anything, the wolves as executioner argument is weak precisely because all legions fulfilled this role. That's why so many people vehemently oppose it, because the execution (:D) of including it in the lore didn't make much sense. There we're lots of things the wolves could have been, but executioner makes the least sense because the Night Lords exist. If Abnett had made the legion into this mysterious 'other' legion, like the wild hunt in folklore, I think it would've been received better. Imagine a legion that no one ever hears about or rarely fights alongside another legion, just rumors in imperial courts of a legion of savages that may or may not exist. Because the world eaters and night lords excesses were widely known quantities, less information would've made it more plausible. Sadly, because Russ is such an integral part of the Emperor's inner circle (with Dorn, Sanguinius, and Horus) they come off as not being quite as intimidatating as the WE and NL.

[Leif Bearclaw]

An executioner is the embodiment of the state's monopoly of violence. The legal authority to take life rests with the state, and the executioner impersonally delivers the blow. If anything, the wolves as executioner argument is weak precisely because all legions fulfilled this role. That's why so many people vehemently oppose it, because the execution () of including it in the lore didn't make much sense. There we're lots of things the wolves could have been, but executioner makes the least sense because the Night Lords exist. If Abnett had made the legion into this mysterious 'other' legion, like the wild hunt in folklore, I think it would've been received better. Imagine a legion that no one ever hears about or rarely fights alongside another legion, just rumors in imperial courts of a legion of savages that may or may not exist. Because the world eaters and night lords excesses were widely known quantities, less information would've made it more plausible. Sadly, because Russ is such an integral part of the Emperor's inner circle (with Dorn, Sanguinius, and Horus) they come off as not being quite as intimidatating as the WE and NL.

I think you've completely missed the point. The executioner thing makes perfect sense, because of Prospero. This was covered earlier in this very thread. The 'why not the WEs/NLs' argument is old hat at this point. Utlimatley, neither of the two Traitor Legions have the appropriate character for executioners. The NLs are sadistic murderers. The WEs are mad butchers. The Wolves are professional killers (this characterisation being one of the small handful of things Abnett did well with PB imo).

I'd say the Wolves don't come of as more 'intimidating', due to the bad treatment they've got during the series thus far (which is part of the impetus behind this thread in the first place). The WEs and NLs have received lashings of love from one of modern BL's darlings in ADB (plus the all important FW attention). The Wolves by contrast have had a book that wasn't really about them, a novella where they need to be saved by DAs and a smattering of short stories/cameos where Watch Packs get messily killed off.

[Jackalwolf]

As a Vlka fan who actually likes the Thousand Sons and has read all the BL books related to it (and 80% of all of the Horus Heresy range) here's my pretty unbiased version of Prospero

- Magnus wanted to serve and warn the Emperor more than anything, and his sons were with him in that intent
- Despite all, Magnus did doom the Emperor when breaking the Golden Throne, and he knew the extent of the damage he had done: forcing the Emperor to remain in Terra whilst the Heresy unfolds
- Magnus, loyal and loving son, felt ashamed and was willing to surrender to the punishment that was coming his way
- The Emperor sent the Wolves to retrieve Magnus since he's hinted at being the only Primarch that could have taken his place in the Throne to sustain the Astronomicon
- Horus meddled in the orders before his fall was clear and changed the orders to eliminate the Thousand Sons
- The Wolves then fell with all their fury in Prospero
- Seeing as the judgement was not punishment but extermination, Magnus couldn't stomach it and at the end decided to fight back
- His world was doomed though so he was forced to teleport the survivors of Prospero to a Demon World in the Warp

So, all in all, the Emperor did not send the Wolves to kill Magnus but to bring him back with them, that much is painfully clear and the only war we've waged I feel bad about.


Spoilers from Thousand Sons and Prospero Burns:

That said, and to ease the consciences of any other Vlka fans who feel bad about the Thousand Sons destiny triggered by Horus' manipulation, had the Emperor known the extent of the deal that Magnus had already done with Tzeentch to save his legion from the flesh change, he would have undoubtedly ordered to exterminate them to the last man.

The novels make painfully clear that Magnus in a trip in the Ocean of the Warp made a deal with an old entity to stop the flesh change of his legion, lost his eye for it and that entity took payment the moment he finished sealing the deal and sending his legion to a Warp World.

[Marshal Rohr]

An executioner is the embodiment of the state's monopoly of violence. The legal authority to take life rests with the state, and the executioner impersonally delivers the blow. If anything, the wolves as executioner argument is weak precisely because all legions fulfilled this role. That's why so many people vehemently oppose it, because the execution () of including it in the lore didn't make much sense. There we're lots of things the wolves could have been, but executioner makes the least sense because the Night Lords exist. If Abnett had made the legion into this mysterious 'other' legion, like the wild hunt in folklore, I think it would've been received better. Imagine a legion that no one ever hears about or rarely fights alongside another legion, just rumors in imperial courts of a legion of savages that may or may not exist. Because the world eaters and night lords excesses were widely known quantities, less information would've made it more plausible. Sadly, because Russ is such an integral part of the Emperor's inner circle (with Dorn, Sanguinius, and Horus) they come off as not being quite as intimidatating as the WE and NL.

I think you've completely missed the point. The executioner thing makes perfect sense, because of Prospero. This was covered earlier in this very thread. The 'why not the WEs/NLs' argument is old hat at this point. Utlimatley, neither of the two Traitor Legions have the appropriate character for executioners. The NLs are sadistic murderers. The WEs are mad butchers. The Wolves are professional killers (this characterisation being one of the small handful of things Abnett did well with PB imo).

My second point was more a musing than a response. The problem is the Night Lords ARE sadistic murderers, but their identity (again, identity is relative to the self-identified) is the justiciars of the Imperium. The World Eaters ARE mad butchers, but their identity is their idomitability (is that a word?). In real life you can have an identity that doesn't change the quantitative truth of what you are. You see this with Americans who identify with the nationality of their ancestors (to use a non-incindiery identity). My great-great grandfather was off-the-boat Irish and moved to Kansas, but I would be silly to identify as Irish, I've never seen Ireland. That's only one of six nationalities I could choose, and none of them are actually relevant regardless of my choice. Similarly, the space wolves identify as the Emperor's executioners, but that is self-identification. It doesn't matter how a person identifies, it matters what they actually do. In the case of the wolves, the narrative hasn't shown them doing any executing until Prospero. You wouldn't call a man an actor because he got a role, you call him an actor when he has a career. Prospero was the wolves executioner audition and they gave a poor performance. It's not their fault, it was never meant to be an execution. The Emperor seems to use legions to chastise other legions all the time (Monarchia being the best example and at the top of my head from a different thread). It was precisely because the VIth Legion identified themselves as the executioners that Horus was able to manipulate Russ. Their identity, without any basis in truth (that we objectively know, I'm happy to be wrong), became a character weakness that was used to weaken them physically and keep them out of Horus' way.

I'd say the Wolves don't come of as more 'intimidating', due to the bad treatment they've got during the series thus far (which is part of the impetus behind this thread in the first place). The WEs and NLs have received lashings of love from one of modern BL's darlings in ADB (plus the all important FW attention). The Wolves by contrast have had a book that wasn't really about them, a novella where they need to be saved by DAs and a smattering of short stories/cameos where Watch Packs get messily killed off.

I'm not all that sympathetic to any other legions portrayals in the lore, when BL actually posted an advert about using mine as whipping boys intentionally :D. In all seriousness, though, it's just an unwritten law of the universe that the traitors get the best novels and the loyalists get the coolest FW background sections (Iron Hands, Rangdan Xenocides for Dark Angels, all the beautiful ship details for Fists). It easier to make a bad guy relatable than a good guy interesting.

Edit: it's also important to note that Russ and Horus are the two oldest Primarchs (in terms of living with the Emperor). It isn't coincidental Horus feared Russ and wanted him out of the fight, they would've known each other better than any other two Primarchs and that makes Russ Horus' greatest threat and vice versa. Best friends are worst enemies.

[Kol Saresk]

Can we stop throwing around the war crime and crime against humanity labels? It's pointless, because every Astartes would be guilty by today's standards, loyalist or traitor. You don't even need to bring up events of the Heresy, Autek Mor etc. The very first event in the HH series, the pacification of 63-19, would also be a war crime by modern reckoning. Every Primarch and Legion, even the 'nice' ones like Magnus and Vulkan, are hideous butchers by modern standards, they've all ground uncounted 'innocent' worlds under their feet, even before the first whiff of the Heresy. While there is some level of nuance (for example, I wouldn't compare Olympia to Calth), branding some actors 'monsters' for doing the same actions as everyone else is needlessly emotive and achieves nothing. Are there 'monsters' in 30k? Yes, but they're forces like the NLs and WEs, who are extreme by the setting's standards, not the real world's.

Well, by the setting's standards, murdering a world was a big deal. Such a big deal that only Primarchs were allowed to issue the order, and even then, only under the most extreme circumstances. And considering the situations we've seen the 30K Legions are willing to fight through, that means those extreme situations have to be pretty dang Extreme. Like "we cannot tolerate leaving this biome intact because the entirety of the planet's life is that much of a threat to the Imperium" kind of extreme.

 

So is what the Wolves did to Prospero within that standard? Because we have to remember, while the World Eaters depopulated worlds, they didn't destroy them. But even that was pushing the envelope.

 

In comparison(or contrast?) the Night Lords actually did destroy worlds and to avoid justice from breaking the Imperium's laws, they fled Imperial space and operated outside its reach for twenty years. The only reason anyone knew they were alive was because scout fleets would find the destroyed worlds left in their wake. FW's Massacre even tells us that there might have been a deal between Dorn and Ferrus to arrest(or possibly even execute) Curze following Istvaan V, because it was probably the only chance they'd have at doing it.

 

And when Perturabo kills Olympia, he just depopulates the planet and he still thinks it is such a grievous crime that Horus can use the guilt of the act to turn him Traitor.

 

So the Wolves murdered a world. A world that was populated by humans. A world populated by Imperials. A world populated by Loyalists. And more importantly, a world that did nothing to warrant the death blow levied against it.

 

The entire population was wiped out and the planet's biome was irrecoverably destroyed. Even in 40K, the planet is a blasted wasteland that no human life could survive in without some serious modifications.

 

So even if we say the Sons were deserving of death, the Prosperines were not. Even if we say that the Wolves should have attacked only the locations there were Sons present, that means only Tizca should have been destroyed. Tizca wasn't built by Magnus; it existed before he did. Prospero wasn't built by Magnus; its society existed before he did. Unlike the XV Legion, the human population was not bound by the Edict; they were normal humans after all, not Astartes.

 

So by the Imperium's standards, flying to a planet, firing on it without provocation, and using world-killer strength weaponry to do it, is a crime. It's not one the Wolves were punished for, but I imagine Valdor had something to do with that. There's probably a report somewhere that says the damage to the VI Legion fleet was from the planetary defenses firing without warning, rather than the truth about how they fired in self-defense. That way it was "justifiable".

 

But Russ knows the truth. That's why he'd spend the next two years hiding from the galaxy at large until the Alpha Legion came a-knocking. Heck, that's why for two years he never had the damage caused by those planetary defense weapons to be repaired fully, so he'd have scars to look at in penance. It's also why three years later, he was so certain he'd be condemned by one of the few Primarchs who has anything approaching a moral fiber, the Khan. And he was. The Khan just happened to see a larger war in the making and knew he would have to move past it.