Space Wolves (and Leman Russ) Identity Discussion

[Jackalwolf]

 

But Russ knows the truth. That's why he'd spend the next two years hiding from the galaxy at large until the Alpha Legion came a-knocking. Heck, that's why for two years he never had the damage caused by those planetary defense weapons to be repaired fully, so he'd have scars to look at in penance. It's also why three years later, he was so certain he'd be condemned by one of the few Primarchs who has anything approaching a moral fiber, the Khan. And he was. The Khan just happened to see a larger war in the making and knew he would have to move past it.

 

I always hoped 40k might bring us a tale of redemption in which the truth is revealed that Russ went into the Eye of Terror to find Magnus and ask his forgiveness and they both come back on the loyalist side for the end times. Don't think that will ever happen but it would be epic.

[Marshal Rohr]

 

 

 

But Russ knows the truth. That's why he'd spend the next two years hiding from the galaxy at large until the Alpha Legion came a-knocking. Heck, that's why for two years he never had the damage caused by those planetary defense weapons to be repaired fully, so he'd have scars to look at in penance. It's also why three years later, he was so certain he'd be condemned by one of the few Primarchs who has anything approaching a moral fiber, the Khan. And he was. The Khan just happened to see a larger war in the making and knew he would have to move past it.

I always hoped 40k might bring us a tale of redemption in which the truth is revealed that Russ went into the Eye of Terror to find Magnus and ask his forgiveness and they both come back on the loyalist side for the end times. Don't think that will ever happen but it would be epic.

A little cliche for my taste

[Zeratil]

Because 40k has no cliches at all :P

I'll admit I've always liked the idea of Magnus managing to turn his back on Chaos in the end, presumably at the cost of his life/existence. It always seemed right to me, of course we'll never see that story - which at least means it can be what I choose to believe happens. That or Russ and Magnus drag each other into oblivion, both unable to get over their hatred of the other.

[Dantay VI]

Kol: Russ does know the truth of it and sadly we as outside viewers to this fantasy universe do not.

 

Just as he knows the truth of the orders from the Emperor in detail, but we only have a broad outline. Maybe it was bring Magnus back at any cost, even war.

 

Just as he knows what passed between himself and Horus/ The sons of Horus which hanged the mission from arrest to exterminate. and we do not know. I would love to find out and it would have to be pretty epic!

 

And yes I will agree that Russ could have used a more "conventional" method of reaching out to Magnus, but all we know is that the Sons were totally blocked from seeing or hearing what was coming. Is it at all possible that Russ had used standard ways of getting word to his brother, but as there was no response , he used the Hawser as a last hail Mary attempt to speak to Magnus? 

 

Can I ask though, if the Sons deserved death but the Prosperines not, how dangerous would all those unsanctioned trained psykers who have opened their mind to the warp become to the Imperium at large had they been left alone, would those who willingly followed the Sons down a dangerous path not also qualify for the same punishment?

Surely because they had allowed themselves become trained and use their "gifts" etc. Even though their teachings from the Sons had come from a place of good intentions, both the teaching and the teachers were incredibly flawed, both in their knowledge, abilities and the safety net that they believed that they had. How grave a risk would all these people be, who do not know their limits and are a potentially unguarded conduit for daemons and worse to enter the universe?

 

I'll say possibly not, as the SoS could have used their black ships for that, however what fictionally happened, fictionally happened, it was what it was.

 

Russ was told to exterminate and he did his best to do so.

 

Can I also ask out of curiosity and not because I want to start an argument or stifle anything, where does it say that Russ hid for 2 years? Or that he deliberately left his ships damaged as penance for what happened at Prospero, and how/ when did the Khan condemn Russ?

[Legatus]

The more I read about the Space Wolves in the HH novels the more one particular character trait seems to be emerging: The Space Wolves of Black Library are highly delusional, about their own role and purpose, about what the Emperor expects, and about other Legions.

 

- They think their "nature magic" is permitted, when all other psychic activity had been outlawed.

- They think they had to endure more than any other Legion.

- They think other Legions don't do as much and are too idle (in general, but specifically the Ultramarines are mentioned.)

- They think no other Legion would have been prepared to attack another Legion.

- They think the other Legions fear them.

- They think the Emperor made them specifically to be his executioners.

 

Some of those notions I found when browsing through 'Wolf King'. But in that book there are moments when some of the characters reflect upon those beliefs, and that they may have been wrong.

 

 

"[Russ] could have gone back then. He could have taken command again, wresting it from Gunn, who only knew how to fight the old wars and whose soul was already half-dragged into the cold grip of Morkai. The others would have welcomed it. Their eyes would have shone again, for the Wolf King would be back among them, and surely he would have answers, and the pattern of war would swing around again, and the Wolves would go back to being the masters of their own fate, to being the feared, the killers.
They had been those things for so long: telling the stories to one another, building the psychology of invincibility, taking on the mantle of the exceptional. It had shielded them, for a time. What they believed, they had become. For a while, they had lived up to the impossible, and he had let them, sharing in the glory, watching as the galaxy learned terror from them."

 

 

 

"Bjorn looked at him sceptically. ‘You said the Wolves will never escape the blood-well.’
‘If the wyrd has been written…’ Russ tried to crack a half-hearted smile. ‘Consider us, One-Handed. We have always fought the wars of others. We have chased down every renegade and xenos and ripped their throats out. We have broken ourselves on the altar stone of my father’s will, and we were glad to do it, for it cemented our place by his side. We started to believe the stories we spun out of nothing to bring terror to our enemies. We were the attack dogs, the sentries, the watchers of the unwatchable.’
Bjorn didn’t like the sceptical tone in Russ’s voice. These were things that were true, things that defined the Legion.
‘Always working alone,’ Russ said, shaking his head as if in bemusement. ‘Dragging my brothers to task, letting it be known that we would do anything – anything – to keep the Great Crusade intact. Hel, I even went after Angron. My wrecked brother. What did I think – that I’d succeed with him? What kind of arrogance was that?’
‘We were necessary,’ said Bjorn evenly.
‘Yes, yes we were, but for whom? What other Legion would have cracked itself apart on Prospero when it could have been carving out new worlds for the dross of humanity to rut and mewl on? Enough of it!’
The old anger rushed back. A low growl shuddered through the air, picked up by the supine true-wolves, who snarled in sympathy.
‘Jarl, I do not know what you are telling me,’ said Bjorn.
‘Just this,’ said Russ, impatiently. ‘It cannot go on. My brother has ripped the Imperium apart with lies, and if we do not change ourselves then we will deserve no better than the sorcerers we destroyed. I will no longer be the axeman of the Emperor. I will no longer see my sons crippled, shorn of allies, clinging to old myths of primacy. There is a path here. There is a road through the briars, and we have to learn to see it.’"

 

 

 

"The star fort passed overhead, driving the Alpha Legion vessels away from Hrafnkel’s local space. Russ felt a hollowness, the aftermath of a fight he had been destined to lose. He had never been saved before, pulled away from defeat by the actions of another Legion. Something of Lord Gunn’s old intransigence flared up within him then, the pride of the Rout, pricked by its failure.
We were the guardians once. We were the watchers over all the others.
Now they were just one of eighteen Legions – humbled by the XX Legion and rescued by the First. There was a kind of symmetry in that, though one that made his stomach turn."

 

 

The Space Wolves had apparently kept largely to themselves. And they had created and cultivated their own identity, unique and special among their brothers. But since they did not keep in touch with the others they did not really know what was going on, clouding their self-perception. They apparently didn't know about the grueling campaigns of the Iron Warriors or the Death Guard, and so thought they got it worse than any other. They didn't know how some Legions had eclipsed all others in terms of achievements, and instead thought they were not doing much when hearing stories about them building their own realm. They didn't know about the atrocities of the Night Lords or the World Eaters, and so though themselves to be the most violent and feared of the Legions. (Which is odd, since at one point they attempt to take the World Eaters to task for their transgressions...)

 

But now (in 'Wolf King') that they got involved in an all out war against other Legions, they realize that maybe their facade as the exceptional executioners is no longer appropriate.

 

Initially I put those idiosyncrasies down to the ignorance of the author, not the Legion. The author (of 'Prosperoe Burns') was known to dismiss the established lore and create his own narrative, and his own characterization for the Legions he writes about. And he had other characters proclaim that the Space Wolves were the most terrifying and violent of the Legions. But 'Wolf King' was written by a different author, includes several other such notions, and also seems to have the Space Wolves eventually realize that they may have erred, as seen in the excerpts above.

 

Perhaps what has happened is that Abnett has come blazing out the gate throwing around how the Space Wolves are "the most feared and brutal of the Legions" and "the Emperor's Executioners", and then other authors (such as Wraight and Dembski-Bowden) attempt damage control and to carefully ease such statements into the lore, explaining that that were just subjective statements.

[Jackalwolf]

I think with multiple confirmations like the BOP booklet, it is pretty established the wolves became the Emperor's executioners through the crusade, because they're the only one of the brutal legions that is reliable unlike the World Eaters or the Night Lords.

 

They're ready to do anything but will only do so under their Master's orders. Wolves are extremely loyal animals if you manage to show them you're the Alpha.

 

That said, many mistakes were committed indeed and I agree in the vision that even Russ thinks they've stuck to the past for too long and they must reinvent themselves going forward since everybody is an executioner now.

[Terminus]

^ All of the BoP game contents and associated marketing material barely scratches the surface of the context of the event and the groups involved in it, so I dismiss it as a relevant source in any way.  It's like reading a Wiki summary of a Cliff Notes version of a third-party account.

 

 

If it was pretty clear than I never would have brought them up. 

I didnt find it clear and figured, for everybody's sake, the entire spectrum should be mentioned.

 

and your perception of the Wolves has them at the negative end of the spectrum. In Fear to Tread we have great communication between a Rune Priest and Blood Angel Librarian. There was no hostility, posturing, anything indicative of bias, hatred or anger.

So there is evidence in the books about Wolves not hating every psyker, just reckless ones. That's important.

I am not sure why you found it unclear, since the spectrum was specifically defined as having Thousand Sons on the progressive end and Space Wolves on the other.  Trying to bring up Legions that aren't even involved in Warp-practice kind of misses the point, but I tried to accommodate you anyway.  The Rune Priest that interacted with the Thousand Sons was also super polite to their face before turning on them, which is part of what made Ahriman so furious as to destroy the Wolf utterly rather than take a chance at stopping the conflict. The Rune Priests usually weren't the ones frothing at the mouth about "the cycle of life and death of Fenris!" since presumably they at least knew better but just rolled with it anyway.

 

The Blood Angels Librarians did obey the edict, but they also thought it was idiotic in the first place (and actually predict Dorn's over-reaction), and threw it away when it really matter (and Sanguinius' attitude was "just add it to the other pile of secrets like the dead Space Wolves and all the berserking").  So they fall closer to the Wolves on the spectrum than Scars do, but not by too much.  I'm sure if the Wolves were aware of the Angels' flaw, they would be rolling up to Sanguinius' doorstep talking "maleficarum! turn yourself over to the Emperor's judgement!".

 

From the recent threads, it seems we have now landed at "self-delusion", which is an extension of my previous postulated cultural identity of wilful ignorance.

[Gree]

Perhaps the Thousand Sons should have reorganized their legion into Hieroglyph Priests who harness the power of Prospero. No psychic powers here. That would have been fine.

 

More seriously, Magnus was "right for the wrong reasons" about the Nikea edict. The Emperor and Russ where just plain wrong. The Heresy showed the Editc as a great mistake as it removed the psychic defense that the Legions had. It's telling that almost every loyalist Primarch quietly ignored the Edict of Nikea when the Heresy began. I put alot of the early devastation of the Heresy on Russ and the Emperor's extremist stance.

 

It's quite the pity that the Emperor chose to ignore the White Scars, who had a very sensible outlook of things.

 

As for myself, I firmly put the blame on Prospero on Russ. Or at least when he arrived at Prospero. If he was so determined to take in Magnus alive in defiance of orders, then he could have simply opened up a communications channel to Prospero below when the fleet arrived, or simply had one of the Prosperine refuguees deliver a message to the planet below. But no, he chose not to. Instead he chose to utilize someone he thought was a conduit for forbidden sorcery in order to contact Magnus. (So utilizing the same product of sorcery that both he and the Emperor had criticized Magnus for using.)

 

To me, despite what Russ says, he's either incompetent, or secretly spoiling for a fight despite what he claims in Prospero Burns.

 

Gulliman started in on the codex idea slightly before when he meets with Aoenid Theil, post-Calth.

The collected engagement data from Theil's warplate's data banks and scrawled on the exterior is what really kicks Gulliman into it.

Strategos is the short story that goes over it.

 

Indeed, it's a measure of irony that a ''Maverick" Ultramarine helped inspire Guiliman to write the Codex Astartes.

 

BL seems to be going with a measure of irony in how the Codex was actually intended and how the modern-day Ultramarines treat it. The document that they slavishly adhere to is partially written by a maverick they would shun.

[Jackalwolf]

Agreed, the Space Wolves Rune priest that was playing Ahriman's buddy came across as an utter arse.

On the Russ blame on Prospero, I don't think we can make that call without knowing exactly the extent of the interference of Horus, Gree.

 

I'm sure we'll have more clarity on Inferno but don't believe it will give a definitive truth.

 

Alas, it is the one conflict that makes me feel bad about my beloved legion.

 

It is extremely interesting how their 30k portrayal though clashes so much with the 40k portrayal of them being basically the only good guys along with the Salamanders, caring about the weak and the simple human to the point of fighting the Inquisition to save civilians in Armageddon.

[Scribe]

Wow, I may have to give Wolf King a read, it seems they have finally pulled the Prospero Burns fluff out of the dumpster fire.

[Sandlemad]

Wow, I may have to give Wolf King a read, it seems they have finally pulled the Prospero Burns fluff out of the dumpster fire.

 

Now I genuinely loved Prospero Burns but if you want something engaged in a thoughtful and perhaps more measured dialogue with the ideas in it, yes absolutely.

 

(out of context quote)

 

‘It cannot go on. My brother has ripped the Imperium apart with lies, and if we do not change ourselves then we will deserve no better than the sorcerers we destroyed. I will no longer be the axeman of the Emperor. I will no longer see my sons crippled, shorn of allies, clinging to old myths of primacy. There is a path here. There is a road through the briars, and we have to learn to see it.’

[Baluc]

Ultimately I think BL didn't know what they wanted to do with the Wolves, so they gave the keys to one of their most trusted authors. Which normally would have been a decent bit of management. However he experienced some personal issue and like most personal issues they compromise the integrity of your work. Propsero Burns while making large strides to solidify Heresy-era Wolves failed in its mission to give an idea of what is was to be of the Vlka Frenyak during the Great crusade. The HH series has given me insight into legions I never would have considered reading about, let alone spending money to play, even the Ultramarines. Yet somehow Propsero and A Thousand Sons made the Wolves less interesting, and less intense at a time when the writing in the HH series was getting really good.

 

I feel like that initial disappointment with Prospero Burns, and continued delays of inferno have really cut the Wolves out of the story and plot, appearing only as spoilers to do their one pre-supposed action and fade back into the back ground. Initially the SW-AL campaign was an actual battle, now its a containing action and near total annihilation. The Legion at a whole has been mismanaged and now we're left here, too solidly formed to do more, and not solid enough to really do much with. Watch Packs... just a horrible idea. FW has the wolves listed as a Seeker-Killer legion... in a interstellar universe... that doesn't specialize in naval operations... Expert hunters who can't see through bait ships... This is what I'm talking about when I say the portrayal is poor.

 

This thread is a good example we're discussing whispers and shadows like they are ironclad examples and quotes, we don't even have an quote of Russ's orders for throne's sake. I think this is the core of the identity crisis the player base is feeling, and is projecting on to the legion. The conversation always ends up at Propsero because its the only thing of note to discuss, and its one of the wolves worst moments.

[Marshal Rohr]

Vanaheim is cool. Assaulting orbital void fortresses of the iron warriors. And the old titanic is fluff is filled with space wolves background.

[Gree]

On the Russ blame on Prospero, I don't think we can make that call without knowing exactly the extent of the interference of Horus, Gree.

Horus's interference doesn't make a difference either way though.

 

In Prospero Burns, Russ apparently wanted to bring in Magnus peacefully regardless of his orders. He tried to use Kaspar Hawser as a messenger to Magnus, believing him to be Magnus's familiar. Instead of that then Russ could have simply opened up a communication channel to Prospero below and contacted Magnus with technology instead of forbidden psychic powers. Of course Kaspar Hawser was not actually connected to Magnus and Russ was mistaken. However if Russ had his shipmen opening up a communication to Prospero ordered them to surrender, then Russ could have contacted Magnus.

 

Of course we know from A Thousand Sons that Magnus was resigned to his fate and even actively sabotaged the defenses of Prospero. If Russ had offered surrender then Magnus would have likely gone to Terra in chains. Either way he chooses not to easily contact Magnus with the fleet communication and to instead use a psychic puppet to do so, a method of communication that is notoriously unreliable.

 

The only conclusions that I can draw from that is that Russ is either incompetent in choosing this roundabout means of communication to speak to Magnus, or insincere in his desire to reason with Magnus and is actually spoiling for a fight. That is the interpretation I hold.

[Dantay VI]

Or as Magnus was blocking anything going out or in, he was also blocking more traditional forms of communication and Russ had to resort to using Hawser as a final attempt to speak to his brother?

 

Remember PB is from Hawsers perspective and he does not see or know all, just what they want him to see.

[Gree]

Or as Magnus was blocking anything going out or in, he was also blocking more traditional forms of communication and Russ had to resort to using Hawser as a final attempt to speak to his brother?

 

Remember PB is from Hawsers perspective and he does not see or know all, just what they want him to see.

 

I can't speak for anyone else, but I have not seen any proof of that in either text, so I'm quite fine with dismissing that idea, and instead sticking with my interpretation of Leman Russ.

[Leif Bearclaw]

 

 Instead of that then Russ could have simply opened up a communication channel to Prospero below and contacted Magnus with technology instead of forbidden psychic powers. Of course Kaspar Hawser was not actually connected to Magnus and Russ was mistaken. However if Russ had his shipmen opening up a communication to Prospero ordered them to surrender, then Russ could have contacted Magnus.

 

How do we know he didn't try? I don't recall PB ever mentioning that one way or the other. And why would it? Hawser was a remembrancer, not the Hrafnknel's comm officer. That's the primary weakness of PB, it's not the story of the Wolves or Prospero, they're just in it. If it doesn't personally affect Hawser, it's not in the book. Like Baluc said, we don't have enough info, unfortunately, to make such a definitive statement.

 

Plus, even if you're right, there are still more options that 'incompetent' or 'actually wanted a fight'. From what little we know, Russ was acting against orders when he reached out to Magnus. What if he didn't want there to be an official record of that? Questioning his orders could make him look suspect and/or weak, either in the eyes of his men, or more likely Valdor/the Warmaster. The executioner shouldn't be seen defying/questioning orders. But Magnus decides 'on his own', to surrender and make war unnecessary? Then Russ has the excuse to not follow through, citing changing circumstance, without his reluctance ever seeing the wider light of day.

[Gree]

How do we know he didn't try? I don't recall PB ever mentioning that one way or the other. And why would it? Hawser was a remembrancer, not the Hrafnknel's comm officer. That's the primary weakness of PB, it's not the story of the Wolves or Prospero, they're just in it. If it doesn't personally affect Hawser, it's not in the book. Like Baluc said, we don't have enough info, unfortunately, to make such a definitive statement.

If it's not mentioned, then we must draw out own conclusions. Perhaps other people might read it differently, but I base my interpretation off of the facts I have. So I believe Russ to be either incompetent or malicious.

 

Plus, even if you're right, there are still more options that 'incompetent' or 'actually wanted a fight'. From what little we know, Russ was acting against orders when he reached out to Magnus. What if he didn't want there to be an official record of that? Questioning his orders could make him look suspect and/or weak, either in the eyes of his men, or more likely Valdor/the Warmaster. The executioner shouldn't be seen defying/questioning orders. But Magnus decides 'on his own', to surrender and make war unnecessary? Then Russ has the excuse to not follow through, citing changing circumstance, without his reluctance ever seeing the wider light of day.

It's a Space Wolves fleet. If Russ wanted to send a message and keep it from the Custodes or anyone else, then I don't doubt he could have done it. So no, I really don't buy that

 

Nor do I think his own men would have questioned him seriously. The Space Wolves have the alpha dynamic for a reason.

[Knight of the Raven]

The more I read this thread, the more I feel the blame belongs on the plot much more than on any of the fictional participants. The Space Wolves must attack Prospero, the Thousand Sons must be forced to flee to become Tzeentch's pet legion and so on and so forth, because so it has been written in the past and so it shall be. Their fate is locked and thus Space Wolves and Thousand Sons must come to blows despite their best intentions, and so be it if that makes the belligerents look bad.

[Scribe]

The more I read this thread, the more I feel the blame belongs on the plot much more than on any of the fictional participants. The Space Wolves must attack Prospero, the Thousand Sons must be forced to flee to become Tzeentch's pet legion and so on and so forth, because so it has been written in the past and so it shall be. Their fate is locked and thus Space Wolves and Thousand Sons must come to blows despite their best intentions, and so be it if that makes the belligerents look bad.

 

Isnt that a given though? We all know how the HH ends too

Horus dies

but its the telling, and the reasoning that matters.

 

There is nothing wrong with the plot, or the actions. I mean honestly I'm a bit lost as to why all this hand wringing is taking place. The Wolves thought of themselves as the hard men doing the hard things.

 

Well, this is one of them.

 

As Legatus points out, maybe they operated under some ignorant assumptions, thats unfortunate, but that IS the fault of Prospero Burns, its been up to others to rescue the Legion.

[Leif Bearclaw]

 

How do we know he didn't try? I don't recall PB ever mentioning that one way or the other. And why would it? Hawser was a remembrancer, not the Hrafnknel's comm officer. That's the primary weakness of PB, it's not the story of the Wolves or Prospero, they're just in it. If it doesn't personally affect Hawser, it's not in the book. Like Baluc said, we don't have enough info, unfortunately, to make such a definitive statement.

If it's not mentioned, then we must draw out own conclusions. Perhaps other people might read it differently, but I base my interpretation off of the facts I have. So I believe Russ to be either incompetent or malicious.

 

But that's the point isn't it. You don't have any 'facts', none of us do at this point, thanks to the deficiencies in the story of PB. All we have is one witness and his limited perspective, which certainly doesn't portray Russ as malicious.

 

Hawser's narrative gives no evidence for maliciousness on the part of Russ. If he really wanted a war, why did he even bother making the (sadly misguided) attempt to contact Magnus though Hawser? As for incompetence, what is more likely, that a centuries old successful warlord superhuman demigod is too stupid to remember conventional communications exist, or that the POV civilian of the story isn't privy to real time fleet communications? You're deliberately assuming the worst of Russ here, without anything substantial to back it up.

[Gree]

But that's the point isn't it. You don't have any 'facts', none of us do at this point, thanks to the deficiencies in the story of PB. All we have is one witness and his limited perspective, which certainly doesn't portray Russ as malicious.

Just because a story had deficiencies doesn't mean that those facts that are present are any less valid.

 

I certainly took Russ being secretly malicious from that scene. That is my opinion and interpretation of things.

 

I mean, if people want to interpret that things occurred off-screen, than that's fine with me. I really don't care either way. People are entitled to their interpretation of the text. For me it's not something I buy.

 

Hawser's narrative gives no evidence for maliciousness on the part of Russ. If he really wanted a war, why did he even bother making the (sadly misguided) attempt to contact Magnus though Hawser.

My take on that is that it's an act that he's putting on. I am quite secure in that interpretation of things.

 

As for incompetence, what is more likely, that a centuries old successful warlord superhuman demigod is too stupid to remember conventional communications exist, or that the POV civilian of the story isn't privy to real time fleet communications? You're deliberately assuming the worst of Russ here, without anything substantial to back it up.

Considering the emotional maturity of the Primarchs in many of these stories?

 

Yes, I can happily and readily believe that Russ is incompetent from my reading of Prospero Burns.

 

[Sandlemad]

@ Gree: I think that's a pretty poorly-thought out and unsupported interpretation for the reasons Leif mentioned. Russ's speech to Hawser comes off as utterly sincere. Russ fully believes that he has a direct line to Magnus, not an unreliable astropath or similar, but something concomitant with Magnus's skill (as Russ's paranoia imagines it). He thinks his legion has been infiltrated successfully and that Magnus is aware. Unreliability doesn't enter into it.

 

If he were grandstanding, who is he doing it for? At no point later in PB or Wolf King (even when he's regretting his actions) or elsewhere do we hear him claim that he offered Magnus the chance to surrender and wouldn't you know it, he refused. He's hardly putting on an act for the sake of a random skald, a rune priest and two low-ranking wolves. There's nothing in his speech that read to me as anything other than completely sincere.

 

Tbh, one of the things that stood out from his attempt to communicate via Hawser is that he is under the impression that it's a direct line to Magnus. It's not a broadcast, it's not a planetwide proclamation, it's a personal courtesy to his brother.

This means it is being conveyed from his throne room in a way that is unmonitored by Horus, by Constantin Valdor, by his father. At this point, immediately before the bombardment, his orders have presumably already changed to 'execute' but, unlike the reputation this thread has been discussing, here he does sort of hesitate, question the inevitability of what has to happen and offer a way out. This appears to me to be an independent action aimed at ... not subverting but at any rate privately challenging what Horus and Valdor pushed him into. 

[Runefyre]

Well this thread is just going fantastic

What a time to be a SW player. Why does the only major thing we do in the Heresy have to be so disputed?

The point of this thread was for positivity, and that is certainly not what it has become. But I'm sure the haters have ALL the reasons in the world for why they're not "really" being negative, just stating "facts".

And even if they are speaking from the books, they don't ever take the time to notice the double standard with which BL treats certain legions when compared to others.

For all my personal positivity at the start of the thread (and special thanks to Apologist and Zeratil for making excellent and constructive discussion) has been drained by the constant "the SW's are just incompetent losers" mantra.

[Legionnaire of the VIIth]

@Gree But a story's deficiencies does have an impact on how the "facts" are interpreted as we aren't seeing the whole picture. It is the problem I have with sound bites and quotes, they are not being presented in their entirety and can change the way people perceive what was going on or being said, context is removed. Using a quote or sound bite to emphasis a portion of the work, while not discounting the more extensive work is fine, but in isolation it can be damaging as it creates a situation where people draw conclusions of what the writer/speaker intended without having the full context thus seeing it differently than what was originally intended or what actually happened.

 

Edit: Some rephrasing to actually make some sense.

 

Edit 2: The problem with what material we currently have is that it is not presenting the events portrayed in their entirety but only glimpses at what was transpiring from the view point of the characters interacting in the story.