Space Wolves (and Leman Russ) Identity Discussion

[Marshal Rohr]

Well this thread is just going fantastic

What a time to be a SW player. Why does the only major thing we do in the Heresy have to be so disputed?

The point of this thread was for positivity, and that is certainly not what it has become. But I'm sure the haters have ALL the reasons in the world for why they're not "really" being negative, just stating "facts".

And even if they are speaking from the books, they don't ever take the time to notice the double standard with which BL treats certain legions when compared to others.

For all my personal positivity at the start of the thread (and special thanks to Apologist and Zeratil for making excellent and constructive discussion) has been drained by the constant "the SW's are just incompetent losers" mantra.

If you can't see why identity is such a debatable topic, I would suggest never taking a non-science class in college.

[Legatus]

What a time to be a SW player. Why does the only major thing we do in the Heresy have to be so disputed?

 

Well, welcome to my world. *coughcalth*

 

In fact, it seems just like BL simply has decided to portray the big known battles more as favouring the traitors. The three big known battles of the Heresy (not counting the Siege of Terra) were Istvaan V, Calth and Prospero. Istvaan V was obviously a win for the traitors, but Calth and Prospero originally were not. But while the loyalists still somewhat come out on top at Calth and Prospero, BL has relativised the battles so that the traitors now managed to achieve their objectives or purposefully let their guard down, diminishing the previous big victories of the loyalists. Perhaps BL did not want to give the loyalists significant victories this early in the Heresy timeline, to build tension until eventually the loyalisst turn it around at the end.

 

What the Space Wolves were up to in the original lore in the remainder of the Heresy was racing to Terra with the Dark Angels (stopping on the way to relieve besieged Imperial planets), and then mercilessly pursuing the retreating traitors for the 7 years of the Scouring, even following them into the Eye of Terror. The latter is pretty badass, but it will be years until BL will come to that, if they tackle the Scouring at all.

 

But now BL has decided to stretch the Heresy from 1 year to 7 years, and now they have to find something to do for all the Legions. Apparently the Space Wolves have been seeking out Thousand Sons outposts for the past two years. Only five years more to go doing "stuff". In the original lore, the attack on Prospero had been the Space Wolves' most notable action of the Heresy, so I fear that the remainder of the series might be a big anticlimactic for SW fans. But who knows what BL will come up with next.

[Knight of the Raven]

I haven't had to deal with the hatedom space wolves fans had to and I know Gree didn't ask me to defend him, but his posts didn't strike me as trolling but as stating his opinion on the subject. Yes, his opinion includes what he considers to be facts of the setting (that's what any interpretation is if I understand correctly), but he presented these facts as subjective, not as objective ones. That's what I take from "That is my opinion and interpretation of things."

 

And in the grim darkness of the far future, one reader's interpretation is often as important as the setting's truths.

[Baluc]

I haven't had to deal with the hatedom space wolves fans had to and I know Gree didn't ask me to defend him, but his posts didn't strike me as trolling but as stating his opinion on the subject. Yes, his opinion includes what he considers to be facts of the setting (that's what any interpretation is if I understand correctly), but he presented these facts as subjective, not as objective ones. That's what I take from "That is my opinion and interpretation of things."

 

And in the grim darkness of the far future, one reader's interpretation is often as important as the setting's truths.

 

There is a difference between facts and "I feel". That society hasn't been able to separate these things is strongly correlated to the level of political discourse we now must suffer through. 

 

I could accept his interpretation of things if he could present any information pointing to a pattern of behaviour. Its like saying well Russ was in the house that day and yesterday I overheard him say that he hated Magnus' apple pie... I could believe he would want to cause him harm to stop making that pie.

 

Lets follow the "known" path of knowledge. Russ is the malicious bastard who was waiting for a reason to kill Magnus... strangely argues the hardest for Lorgar to keep breathing... Or as Magnus' sons engage the wolves and experience the flesh change, strangely doesn't charge in and start murdering the lot.  Seems consistently malicious to me.

 

At this point I'm of the opinion and the facts show that Gree doesn't know what he is speaking on and that all future comments will also portray a similar level of understanding. Therefor I will disregard all further comments. Does that seem well reasoned to you?

[Gree]

Then I must ask you to quote or paraphrase some passage in Prospero Burns that supports your opinion. I mean you know what you read right? Russ is consistently shown in several novels to be the one of the few Primarchs other than Vulkan to view the 18 as true brothers.

Well putting aside the fact that I won't have easy access to Prospero Burns currently-

 

Why? It's just me stating my opinion. I'm not trying to convince anyone. If people want to ignore me then that's fine. I really don't care.

 

I choose to disregard that other contradictory stuff as being non-canon, as is my right as a 40k player. For example, Wolf Lord Kieran is fine with dismissing any piece of lore that doesn't depict Magnus as a pantomime villain. I disagree with it, but I certainly don't begrudge him his opinion.

 

At this point I'm of the opinion and the facts show that Gree doesn't know what he is speaking on and that all future comments will also portray a similar level of understanding. Therefor I will disregard all further comments. Does that seem well reasoned to you?

*shrugs*

 

I'm sorry if me having a different interpretation of things upsets you.

 

As I said before, if you want to disagree with me or disregard me, then I really don't care either way. I've repeatedly stated I'm perfectly fine with people having a different interpretation of Russ. If Leif Bearclaw or anyone else wants to pursue a different angle on Russ, then more power to him. I just don't happen to agree.

[Baluc]

 

Then I must ask you to quote or paraphrase some passage in Prospero Burns that supports your opinion. I mean you know what you read right? Russ is consistently shown in several novels to be the one of the few Primarchs other than Vulkan to view the 18 as true brothers.

Well putting aside the fact that I won't have easy access to Prospero Burns currently-

 

Why? It's just me stating my opinion. I'm not trying to convince anyone. If people want to ignore me then that's fine. I really don't care.

 

I choose to disregard that other stuff as being non-canon, as is my right as a 40k player. For example, Wolf Lord Kieran is fine with dismissing any piece of lore that doesn't depict Magnus as a pantomime villain. I disagree with it, but I certainly don't begrudge him his opinion.

 

At this point I'm of the opinion and the facts show that Gree doesn't know what he is speaking on and that all future comments will also portray a similar level of understanding. Therefor I will disregard all further comments. Does that seem well reasoned to you?

*shrugs*

 

I'm sorry if me having a different interpretation of things upsets you.

 

As I said before, if you want to disagree with me or disregard me, then I really don't care either way. I've repeatedly stated I'm perfectly fine with people having a different interpretation of Russ. If Lief Bearclaw or anyone else wants to pursue a different angle on Russ, then more power to him. I just don't happen to agree.

 

 

Then you also seem to misunderstand what a forum is ... "a place, meeting, or medium where ideas and views on a particular issue can be exchanged." You can hold any opinion you want. However if you want to participate, you must be open to having it both challenged and proved false, or just keep it at home and play games in your head canon. 

[Gree]

 

 

Then I must ask you to quote or paraphrase some passage in Prospero Burns that supports your opinion. I mean you know what you read right? Russ is consistently shown in several novels to be the one of the few Primarchs other than Vulkan to view the 18 as true brothers.

Well putting aside the fact that I won't have easy access to Prospero Burns currently-

 

Why? It's just me stating my opinion. I'm not trying to convince anyone. If people want to ignore me then that's fine. I really don't care.

 

I choose to disregard that other stuff as being non-canon, as is my right as a 40k player. For example, Wolf Lord Kieran is fine with dismissing any piece of lore that doesn't depict Magnus as a pantomime villain. I disagree with it, but I certainly don't begrudge him his opinion.

 

At this point I'm of the opinion and the facts show that Gree doesn't know what he is speaking on and that all future comments will also portray a similar level of understanding. Therefor I will disregard all further comments. Does that seem well reasoned to you?

*shrugs*

 

I'm sorry if me having a different interpretation of things upsets you.

 

As I said before, if you want to disagree with me or disregard me, then I really don't care either way. I've repeatedly stated I'm perfectly fine with people having a different interpretation of Russ. If Lief Bearclaw or anyone else wants to pursue a different angle on Russ, then more power to him. I just don't happen to agree.

 

 

Then you also seem to misunderstand what a forum is ... "a place, meeting, or medium where ideas and views on a particular issue can be exchanged." You can hold any opinion you want. However if you want to participate, you must be open to having it both challenged and proved false, or just keep it at home and play games in your head canon. 

 

 

I'm quite well aware of what a forum is.

 

I'm just not sure why I'm required to prove a subjective opinion on things.

[Baluc]

 

 

 

Then I must ask you to quote or paraphrase some passage in Prospero Burns that supports your opinion. I mean you know what you read right? Russ is consistently shown in several novels to be the one of the few Primarchs other than Vulkan to view the 18 as true brothers.

Well putting aside the fact that I won't have easy access to Prospero Burns currently-

 

Why? It's just me stating my opinion. I'm not trying to convince anyone. If people want to ignore me then that's fine. I really don't care.

 

I choose to disregard that other stuff as being non-canon, as is my right as a 40k player. For example, Wolf Lord Kieran is fine with dismissing any piece of lore that doesn't depict Magnus as a pantomime villain. I disagree with it, but I certainly don't begrudge him his opinion.

 

At this point I'm of the opinion and the facts show that Gree doesn't know what he is speaking on and that all future comments will also portray a similar level of understanding. Therefor I will disregard all further comments. Does that seem well reasoned to you?

*shrugs*

 

I'm sorry if me having a different interpretation of things upsets you.

 

As I said before, if you want to disagree with me or disregard me, then I really don't care either way. I've repeatedly stated I'm perfectly fine with people having a different interpretation of Russ. If Lief Bearclaw or anyone else wants to pursue a different angle on Russ, then more power to him. I just don't happen to agree.

 

 

Then you also seem to misunderstand what a forum is ... "a place, meeting, or medium where ideas and views on a particular issue can be exchanged." You can hold any opinion you want. However if you want to participate, you must be open to having it both challenged and proved false, or just keep it at home and play games in your head canon. 

 

 

I'm quite well aware of what a forum is.

 

I'm just not sure why I'm required to prove a subjective opinion on things.

 

 

Because opinions are provable or in your case easily disprovable. Opinions aren't faith based. You believe in god, you aren't of the opinion that god exists. Its an abuse of the language often taken to put forward a strong position and then used to retreat behind fortress walls when presented with contradictory evidence. 

 

My opinion is Magnus was always a traitor and his mission was the destruction of the golden gate and throne , while decreasing the general skepticism of the warp to further the plan of the Chaos Gods. Having completed his mission he opened his gates and accepted whatever limited repercussions came his way.

 

Its intellectually dishonest.  

[Jackalwolf]

At the end of the day, the wolves are always going to get the short end of the stick.

 

The very painful bottomline is that, if you were not in Terra to fight for the Emperor when all the traitor legions and Primarchs were there to try to kill him (except Curze), you messed up. Big time.

 

As i see it there are three tiers of legions based on the endgame in Terra, and this lore was established well before they thought how big this would become or which legions would be developed or not, which I guess makes them be stuck with the hand they were dealt with.

 

1. The ones who were there to fight for the Emperor

- Imperial Fists

- Blood Angels

- White Scars

 

2. The ones who weren't there but had a good reason since they were destroyed in Istvann when Noone knew the extent of the treason:

- Iron Hands

- Salamanders

- Raven Guard

 

3. The ones that weren't there and before the BL series you wondered why the hell they weren't

- Space Wolves

- Dark Angels

- Ultramarines

 

Tier one will always have the upper hand in the fluff, particularly the scars and angels because they cruised against all odds to arrive to Terra in time to defend the Emperor.

 

Tier two has a very good excuse: they were almost completely destroyed. Despite that, BL has done a great job in making them be active members of the Heresy by being the guerrilla forces behind enemy lines that won't surrender.

 

Tier three are the ones that have the worse starting point and BL will need to make great excuses for their lack of involvement in the crux of the Heresy:

 

- Ultramarines: In my opinion they've done a great job with the Ultramarines making their lack of intervention in Terra meaningful with imperium secundus and basically holding on their own the better part of two legions.

- Dark Angels: We will see how that excuse is crafted but at least they were the artificers of the destruction of the Night Lords so they have that street cred on their favour. The fact that Curze didn't make it to the siege of Terra also helps minimise the lack of presence of the Calibanites.

- Space Wolves: So far they have the worst excuse of all; they spent the beginning of the Heresy killing by mistake another Legion composed by charismatic, reasonable, originally loyalist marines and led by a loving son and cool Primarch. After that they were messed up by the Alpha Legion in Alexxes and needed outside help to make it through. To compound insult to injury, Russ is spotted at Terra playing chess with Malcador while the Hrfankel is repaired and, instead of staying to help in the most meaningful fight of the Heresy, leaves to a destiny that has not been described or established yet in the lore.

 

So unless BL comes through and gives a hell of a meaningful arc to explain what Russ did while he left Terra with the VIth and before he came back (too late) to defend Terra and the Emperor, they will be a Legion fluff-crippled by the lore that was established so long ago that didn't have a fraction of the thought process or depth that it currently has.

[Jarl Kjaran Coldheart]

I was happy not getting back into this quagmire, but since I was called out by name...

 

Gree states that "I choose to disregard that other contradictory stuff as being non-canon, as is my right as a 40k player. For example, Wolf Lord Kieran is fine with dismissing any piece of lore that doesn't depict Magnus as a pantomime villain. I disagree with it, but I certainly don't begrudge him his opinion."

 

I don't nor have ever ignored fluff background, as proof of that can be seen in the BL subforum where I lament what had been done to the RG.

Now my opinion of Magnus is formed by reading the Collected Visions art book, A Thousand Sons and Prospero Burns, and it is in my belief that Magnus's actions and attitude lands him as a villain of the setting, tragic or not.

 

The difference is that you, among others, seem happy to blantantly ignore what doesn't fit your view of what is right and then endlessly go on in a rude manner of why everything else "isn't canon" or simply twisted.

 

Now if you have any other personal commentary or off topic remarks, send them in a pm or sit on them. Your corrosive attitude has done enough damage

[Runefyre]

At the end of the day, the wolves are always going to get the short end of the stick.

 

The very painful bottomline is that, if you were not in Terra to fight for the Emperor when all the traitor legions and Primarchs were there to try to kill him (except Curze), you messed up. Big time.

 

As i see it there are three tiers of legions based on the endgame in Terra, and this lore was established well before they thought how big this would become or which legions would be developed or not, which I guess makes them be stuck with the hand they were dealt with.

 

1. The ones who were there to fight for the Emperor

- Imperial Fists

- Blood Angels

- White Scars

 

2. The ones who weren't there but had a good reason since they were destroyed in Istvann when Noone knew the extent of the treason:

- Iron Hands

- Salamanders

- Raven Guard

 

3. The ones that weren't there and before the BL series you wondered why the hell they weren't

- Space Wolves

- Dark Angels

- Ultramarines

 

Tier one will always have the upper hand in the fluff, particularly the scars and angels because they cruised against all odds to arrive to Terra in time to defend the Emperor.

 

Tier two has a very good excuse: they were almost completely destroyed. Despite that, BL has done a great job in making them be active members of the Heresy by being the guerrilla forces behind enemy lines that won't surrender.

 

Tier three are the ones that have the worse starting point and BL will need to make great excuses for their lack of involvement in the crux of the Heresy:

 

- Ultramarines: In my opinion they've done a great job with the Ultramarines making their lack of intervention in Terra meaningful with imperium secundus and basically holding on their own the better part of two legions.

- Dark Angels: We will see how that excuse is crafted but at least they were the artificers of the destruction of the Night Lords so they have that street cred on their favour. The fact that Curze didn't make it to the siege of Terra also helps minimise the lack of presence of the Calibanites.

- Space Wolves: So far they have the worst excuse of all; they spent the beginning of the Heresy killing by mistake another Legion composed by charismatic, reasonable, originally loyalist marines and led by a loving son and cool Primarch. After that they were messed up by the Alpha Legion in Alexxes and needed outside help to make it through. To compound insult to injury, Russ is spotted at Terra playing chess with Malcador while the Hrfankel is repaired and, instead of staying to help in the most meaningful fight of the Heresy, leaves to a destiny that has not been described or established yet in the lore.

 

So unless BL comes through and gives a hell of a meaningful arc to explain what Russ did while he left Terra with the VIth and before he came back (too late) to defend Terra and the Emperor, they will be a Legion fluff-crippled by the lore that was established so long ago that didn't have a fraction of the thought process or depth that it currently has.

And at least the shattered legions (Sallys, Iron Hands, and Raven Guard) have some awesome characters and cameos in other novels that give at least a little hope. In the case of the Iron Hands, there's down-right Mary Sue'ness going on in the form of Shadrak Meduson.

 

The Wolves don't have ANY meaningful characters except for Bjorn and Russ, and Bjorn won't even be in Inferno.

[Terminus]

I think throwing out labels like incompetence and failure is not conducive to a productive discussion. We could all use a toning down of the rhetoric.

 

We must remember that what happens in the Heresy could not have happened any other way. It was all preordained and any attempts to alter fate merely sped it along its course. I like Magnus and all, but as Lorgar pointed out, he willfully turned a blind eye (no pun intended) to the realities of the warp entities he had been dealing with since childhood. I always felt the loss of the eye was a symbolic price (as with all things involving the warp), and it made Magnus lose perspective (literally and metaphorically). His Legion was doomed and for all the tears shed over Prospero, they were doomed as well.

 

And we should probably take for granted that all the Primarchs are quite capable (if sometimes hard to understand) commanders despite the individual failings of the authors depicting them.

 

It's easy to armchair general and second guess every action when we have more access to the full story than anyone in said stories. The Emperor should have probably pulled Magnus into the Webway project immediately just to keep him busy, and then soul-bound the whole Thousand Sons legion to keep them from going full mutant.

[Legatus]

3. The ones that weren't there and before the BL series you wondered why the hell they weren't

- Space Wolves

- Dark Angels

- Ultramarines

 

Well, originally "before the BL series" the traitors went straight from Istvaan V to attack Terra, so all the Dark Angels and the Space Wolves could do was to give chase. The Ultramarines were so far away that they only learned of the terrible news once Terra was already under siege. So it was really well understood what those three loyal Legions had been doing.

 

But now BL has extended the Heresy into a 7 year ordeal, and now they have to come up with stuff for the Legions to do.

[Huggtand]

Prospero burns is a Greek tragedy at heart where the heroes good intensions are leading them to deeper tradegy and downfall, that’s the hole setting of the saga.

Both Magnus and Russ is tragic heroes and cant behave in other ways, that would break the classic format and lessen the story. Therefor it follows that both sides must misunderstand each other and make bad decisions with good intensions or follow a path of duty that also leeds to tragedy. To blame either side of being stupid or ignorant is like pointing finger Sauron for being evil and stupid for not making peace with everyone in harmony or not catching Frodo. If he was peaceful or not so stupid we would not have a good story (or none at all).

As for the wolves being underwritten, I haven’t really thought of it in those terms. They have good stories and that’s what matters. We also have lots of good and interesting characters in many other sagas

Both TS and PB are probably two of my favorite BL books just for the good portraits of two of my favorite legions and primarchs.

[Marshal Rohr]

Isn't there an upcoming event on the HH timeline called the wolf cull? That's either going to be cool or bad news.

 

Also, Gree came back from the dead to argue about space wolf stuff. It's just like old times :D

[Corsovitt]

Reading this discussion makes me realise how strongly we as hobbyists are tied to this story of Galactic Civil War, I personally enjoy the majority of the BL and FW HH fluff and see a lot of the discrepancies as being subjective to a certain legion or character in the stories... 

 

However I can understand some of the frustration on both sides, I'm VIII legion to the core and to be fair outside of the  ADB short stories, I find most of the Night Lords stuff to be Curze bouncing between being a Moustache Twirling villain and a Overly Theatrical Lunatic, constantly thwarted by circumstance and the majority of the Night Lords Legion as little more than a convenient speed bump for Imperium Secundus to overcome. Then to top matters off a blackshield/raven guard splinter turns up in Nostroman space and pretty much wipes out the 30,000 legionnaires stationed there (a quarter to a third of the legion going off what little information we have). Night Lords are somehow portrayed as being cowardly and inadequate on a one to one basis to members of the other legions. 

 

I think the problem is that with small hints of the HH setting in earlier editions of the game and earlier BL novels we were left to imagine the feats of both heroism and villainy which our legions were capable and when the setting is fleshed out with the retconned numbers and longer period of war those feats become rather bland in an attempt to bring balance and explain why in the extended timeline several legions appear to be sitting doing nothing for several years... 

[Brother-Chaplain Kage]

Once again, it is proven that anything involving the VI Legion (Or XIII, who were brought up for off-topic flag waving purposes) will eventually devolve into name calling and insults (especially by those who should know better). This is done and it's not coming back.

 

http://i.imgur.com/u9yQtVs.gif