To start with Astra...

[Brother Captain Ed]

Hello commissars, field officers, Stormtroopers, and assorted tank commanders,

 

I’m considering starting up an Astra force but the Guard has such a large armory and order of battle (I think there are more Leman Russ variants than Space Marine vehicles in total) that I’m honestly not even sure where to begin.  Case in point: I just learned that several of you swear by Hellhounds.  I’d have never guessed.  Not because it looks bad, but because I just lost it in the shuffle of the enormous codex(es) (let’s be real, the Tempestus codex is basically an addition to the AM ‘dex and I’m told the Cadia dataslate is near mandatory).

 

Therefore, I figure I ought to ask people what choices they most often use in tandem with each other and try to avoid purchases that will only collect dust on the shelf.  So my question is: “If you were starting over with no models, what would you buy and what would you avoid?  What about multiples?  What would you snatch up on eBay vs what really isn’t a good value?”

 

The Start Collecting box looks like a pretty good buy and there may be a good Black Friday deal.  But, if you had blank slate, where would you go?

[sebs_evo7]

I think you need to work out what your theme is going to be. I have absolutely nothing built but have 7 armoured vehicles and 30 infantry. I'm going for a mechanised force with a recon element thrown in.

That said the start collecting box is a really good deal. Grab two of them and maybe the premium start collecting box when it drops

[clanfield]

i started with 116th cadia b company a few years back with support but now strangely find my self with several tank company's

 

I agree sebs what your fav war film pick a unit and build away.some guys like vets I for example love platoons

 

soon enough you end up with a battalion and be wondering why you didn't start guards years ago:)

 

the start collecting box is a good start it can ally with other impy codex's too so you can run off as soon as the paints dried.

[HackedDuck]

Yeah I think start with the start collecting box and then decide if you want more infantry or tanks

[duz_]

As others have said start with a theme and rough idea for a list

 

As for purchasing

If youre happy with fielding cadians nothing wrong with buying them 2nd hand and then giving them a good dettol bath if you just want to collect an army quick. Obviously if you enjoy the modelling part of the hobby you will miss out on that.

 

As for tanks I'd see what you want first then check out the excellent mangnetization tutorial thread we have.

[Ulrik_Ironfist]

Here we go...

 

First the Cadia supplement is nice to have, and the only good it really does is for the rules for the formations and superheavy tanks. The Detachment is poop, Grade 0 unrefined, unfiltered, poop. I couldn't even fertilize my garden with it.

 

It's unweildy, it's rules are focused on infantry, only one formation has obsec (and it's not a core choice), It's unplayable below 2500 points (If you want any sort of variety). The rules it gives aren't all that strong, mostly buffing orders, and focusing fire on single targets. It's garbage. If you use the infantry core, it's 1005 points minimum and 173 models minimum with no transports (can't has). It will also be expensive ($) to build.

 

As for a start, you can't go wrong with a CCS and a Couple of vet squads, a few chimeras to put them all in. Then a couple of russes. Maybe a vendetta and a couple of sentinels for fast attack. That's a good start.

 

I really like stormtroopers, but veterans tend to be more useful. Also gone are the 5th ed stormies with their versatility. Now we have generic specialist veterans with hotshots.

 

I'm wholly dissatisfied with the current Codex, which is why I tend to build my lists from the FW books.

[Canadian_F_H]

Whew... um.

 

3 cadian comand squads, 4 INF squads.

 

Play some 1hq,2troop, games against whoever wants to play little games.

 

Then start adding Chimeras for everything. .. save a few bucks buy your chimeras and INF squads in the genestealer cult bundles for a slight discount. Sell off GSC spru for slight return...

 

Then you just need chimeras for the CCS and PCS.

 

EXTRA build all the special weapons you can with multipart kits, buy monopose guys for cheaper lasgunners.

[WarriorFish]

Not much I can add here - the most important point is the type of army you want to collect/field. For me, a good number of troopers to support some tanks would be my approach. Buying from resellers to save money on the box sets is a great start.

 

Russ tanks are great, especially magnetised, and will form the core of most of your lists. The rule of two is in effect, so a couple of Demolishers for example will be effective. Chimeras are very useful for keeping valuable squads alive (mostly Veterans and Command Squads).

 

When in doubt, a few more Guardsmen and a Chimera is never a bad addition. Or more tanks ;) That gives you a solid core you can do a lot with, then you can look into supplementing. Like artillery? A couple of Wyverns are fantastic at infantry suppression (or more accurately "slaughter").

[Jacinda]

I started with 2 of the old Cadian boxed sets. Each had a LR, 30 guards and a chimera, IIFC. This is srill the core of my IG. I tend to play mechanized infantry so these boxes were exactly what I wanted to build and play. Over time I have add a couple of Valkyries, 2 Wyverns, 3 more chimeras, a basilisk because every grard army needs one and few sentinels as well as 100 or so additional grunts. It all started with the original boxed sets and I still use every modle from those boxes.

[Inso]

My thoughts are that the guard have many bodies and a nice array of tanks but you need a mix.

 

If I was to start a force, it would always start with two platoons of guard (each with 2 infantry squads and a platoon command squad) with an army command squad.

 

A nice squadron of Leman Russ tanks for support and then... whatever takes your fancy.

 

I'd mechanise the troops with Chimeras as well.

[Canadian_F_H]

I've seen suggested often that if you are going with INF platoons but want a little mech support. It's a good idea to place your PCS in a chimera where they can still issue orders, equip with 2 flamers a heavy flamer and a vox, then move unload(if necessary) and flame anything getting too close to your INF. Ie use the PCS as a response force.

 

Idk if it's the best plan, but it's a plan

 

 

As for russ varients. My plan is to get a mix of demolishers, eradicaters and executioners.... move in close with mech INF and running INF as close to support the tanks as possible.

[zero88]

Besides the start collecting boxes, the new Genestealer Cult box (can't remember what it's called) that has ten Cadians and a Chimera is a great deal.. you save about $10 USD and can resell the Genestealer sprues on eBay for a little more cash.

[DominikB]

Besides the start collecting boxes, the new Genestealer Cult box (can't remember what it's called) that has ten Cadians and a Chimera is a great deal.. you save about $10 USD and can resell the Genestealer sprues on eBay for a little more cash.

There's no heavy weapon team sprue with it so keep that in mind

[Brother Captain Ed]

Thank you everyone for the feedback! 

 

It’s fair to ask what sort of list I had in mind.  In my far from perfect understanding, Guard lists sit on three “poles”: All the Infantry, Armored Parking Lot, and Air Cav and you sort of adjust the slider to sit where you want (Mechanized Infantry, Airborne Company, etc.).  Through my internet travels (I haven’t actually played against Guard since 5th Ed.), I was under the impression that Squads of Chimera-mounted infantry supported by as many Leman Russes as you can fit was the way Guard is currently played.  Good, bad, or indifferent, there you go.

 

As a younger man, I was an actual tanker so my soft spot for armored vehicles and heavy artillery always made me fond of the Guard, but realism isn’t in the 40k equation and I was concerned that I’d grow disillusioned with my little plastic tanks.  I also always liked the idea of the human tide of the Emperor’s Hammer, but my table top experience tells me that that is a monstrously difficult way to score points and infantry based lists will get drop pod’d or Tau’d to death (and after painting hundreds of little dudes).  The Air Cav idea is also a flavor I liked, but it seems to be very feast or famine: Either you are on time and on target and can really bully the opponent’s list without much of a response, or they have answers for your Valks and tiny squads and you die.  A lot.  (In very, very expensive flyer models.)

 

So, I guess, I’m just looking to capture the flavor of the Guardsman.  Squads of infantry in Chimeras and a few tanks *sounds* best but, as I said, I’d have never considered Hellhounds because they are just lost in the background noise.  So I don’t want to miss out or waste precious dollars on bench warmers.  I think right now I’m kind of leaning towards a solid, steady “take them by the belt buckle” force designed to hold ground and put the enemy through the wringer while a couple drop pods of Deathwatch execute decapitation strikes (Though running out of points will be an issue) but I’m not sure what that would look like.

 

Again, thanks for the feedback and I appreciate everyone’s thoughts!

[WarriorFish]

Sounds like you want a hybrid list, which I tend to go for usually. Tanks to do the main killing, infantry to keep the tanks alive and mop up A single Platoon can net you plenty of infantry if you want, so you can work it in several ways. You can flavour it how you like e.g. Chimera Vets, some artillery, Valkyrie/deep strike elements or with your DW

Last but not least don't put too much stock in the General Consensus stuff you hear a lot online - here in the barracks we prefer Field Marshall Experience

[Canadian_F_H]

Indeed, all of my field experiance is seriously out of date, but I'm getting the jist of the new field manual...

[Brother Captain Ed]

Last but not least don't put too much stock in the General Consensus stuff you hear a lot online - here in the barracks we prefer Field Marshall Experience

Oh, I agree. But you gotta play the hand you're dealt. I'm not sure if Guard has become rare or if I've just lived in the right places, but I haven't seen much of it on the table since the days of the 5th Ed Leafblower. So I'm here seeking second-hand experience. :)

So you'd recommend a CAD of infantry squads mounted in Chimeras (for ObSec), a small group of tanks (or maybe models like Hellhounds?), and then DW Kill Teams or even a Black Spear depending on points?

What about fortifications like an Aegis Line (though I guess a new Planetary Assault style supplement is coming, so maybe that's a question for the future)? Oh what about artillery? It seems fun, but I don't see Basilisks and such in lists anymore?

Thanks again!

[WarriorFish]

Leaf blower was never a thing, just more internet hype The thing with Guard is that we've never had a strong codex, and that's enough for most to overlook His Hammer. A Guard player must fight for every inch and I'd argue this is what makes a good player. Anyone can throw one of the beardy lists about and win, that's easy. Guard requires a cohesive force, created to work together according to your plans and preferences - combined arms wins the day, just like real life.

The codex does well enough normally if you play to the Guard's strengths (numbers and fire power + the mobility 7th demands), but against the top tier lists you will struggle. The Guard codex isn't alone there, and the codex is old enough for us to have a very good idea exactly how it works - or doesn't.

Artillery suffers from the common Guard problem; expensive for what you get. Only the Wyvern which is cheap for what you get differs. The same is true for the Hellhound variants. However it's never that simple, as mentioned combined arms and a good list is how Guard win. These units are useable as long as you are fully aware of the drawbacks.

It gets complicated fast though, it isn't a quick answer so I'll leave with this: artillery companies are fun. Throwing lots of markers of doom down is great as is the power of them, but you'll need a lot of pieces. That takes up room and FOC slots and you're not mobile. You'll need troopers to help protect them too. Fast moving and deploying units will be up on your lines from even turn 1, so they need to be effective too - maybe add some Vets as well. You're also sacrificing mobility in a game that currently requires it. The Aegis will offer good protection, but at further cost to mobility.

Yet it's only a few games ago with my Guard that I did just this. I fought hard for a draw and made my opponent pay for it in blood, and I almost won too. Ultimately that's what it is to be a Guard player; to do something knowing the cost. How you deal with that price is what makes a good Guard player As you said; this is our hand how we play it is what matters

Fortunately there are lots of experienced generals here who'll just love to talk to anyone who'll listen (and some who won't), so you're in the right place I'd recommend perusing the army lists section to see what people are doing and saying and coming back with your own thoughts on what you may want to do

[Tallarn Commander]

Brother Captain Ed,

 

Warrior Fish makes some great points.  In addition, I haven’t tried out kill teams or the Black Spear, but here are my thoughts on the other units you asked about:

 

1.) Mechanized Infantry Platoons…I’ve found that mechanized infantry platoons are lackluster.  I tend to get better mileage if I put my vets in chimeras and leave the platoons on foot (where they can bunch up and receive an order all at once). 

2.) Hellhounds—a good medium tier unit that excels at maelstrom missions.  My Hellhounds was a key part of 3 wins I had a tournament last weekend.

3.) Basilisks—Another good medium tier unit that threatens a wide variety of targets.  Their minimum range isn’t a big deal since you can fire over the sights.   If I’ve already taken a wyvern or 2 (wyverns being a top tier IG unit) and I want more arty then I sometimes toss in a bassy or 2.   

4.) Aegis—fairly effective fortification, and very cheap cover.  Many folks don’t bother with the quad gun anymore.

 

Welcome to the Guard and Good luck!

[Gloomfoe]

Im relatively new to the hobby (6 months or so), but I play with 20year vets of the game, they keep suggesting the hellhound. Torrent templates, fast vehicle, 12 side armor, it adds up.

 

Also, I just got a wyvern and its amazing. It adds so much anti-infantry for so little points. Im gonna get another one real soon.

 

Also, youre gonna need ministorum priests.

[Brother Captain Ed]

Thank you all for the feedback!  I've started looking more closely and am a little lost.

 

I’m trying to figure out some the nuances of a Guard company, though.  As I jam some numbers around I see that points get real tight, real fast. 

 

In building a plain Jane CAD, I find that a basic Company Command (w/Chimera, Carapace, Standard, Vox, and maybe a relic) weighs in at roughly 200 points and its subordinate platoons hit 200ish each before vehicles, HWTs, etc. (but carrying a couple flamers, Standard, and a vox).  This is a lot points before we even get to the fun stuff and they are still mostly dismounted.  Add a couple vehicles and you’re most of the way to 1000 points.

 

So, how do I decide where to apply points after meeting the bare minimum?  Where should commissars, priests, or psykers be slotted, if any?    Are heavy weapons teams worth the cost?  If so, in what capacity?  Should the basic squads be mounted?  Or is it better to find them plot of ground to hold on to? 

 

Then the same questions apply to vehicles…  Are there upgrades you never leave home without?  Or should never bother with?

I know a lot of this is vague, but really it’s just generic rules of thumb that I’m after rather than hard point builds.

 

Thank you again!

[WarriorFish]

Yes, that's one of the problems as building a core of infantry to be useful gets expensive relatively quickly. It's key to make sure they all have a use so they are points well spent. I try to keep CCSs cheap, they're only worth spending points on if you're going to get some use out of them i.e. good use of orders. Otherwise keeping a Guard infantry unit trim is a good default as they don't have much survivability - which is why a Chimera for your CCS is such a good idea. The standards are sadly rubbish for the points and relics need a build to make them worthwhile in most cases - I'd not bother at lower points and your early games.

 

My Infantry squads are cheap - 55-60pts depending on if I've decided to run a vox network. Vox is nice, but across all squads (as it is usually best) can mount up across the army. At lower points like 1,000 ditching vox isn't a bad idea if you need some points. I usually run only a single Platoon, taking a Vet squad as a cheaper second choice. Two Platoons are for higher point games or intentionally infantry heavy lists.

 

Going back to the infantry; cheap is good but they need to be effective too. I build mine to handle infantry, lasguns with a flamer or grenade launcher can do quite well and don't threaten enough to attract much attention, letting them be a more effective picket as your opponent doesn't want to "waste" effort on them. Unless you are combining squads or have a particular plan I don't recommend taking more than one weapon upgrade. Guard aren't Marines and shouldn't try to be.

 

In this best to usually stick to one theme, and that's nice and simple - units to move around and tackle the enemy have cheaper assault weapons. Squads to hang back can have a HWT. I wouldn't mount basic squads unless you were after Chimera spam without the FOC slots, if you want mechanisation it's much better to go with Vets. The attaching characters are best left unless you have a need - most uses are a priest for a blobbed squad; again not something to think much on as you start out.

 

For rules of thumb on building a list I get the basics down and go from there. A Platoon with no extra squads and the tools they need (PCSs get two cheap specials, if anything). A bare bones CCS in a Chimera and a Vet squad too - probably riding around to deliver their melta. With that I have a legal army and I can then look at what else I need and want. Maybe I load up on tanks, or add a couple more trooper squad?

 

Units I (almost always) never leave without:

- a CCS built to issue orders and maybe deliver some counter attack BS4 melta/plasma from their Chimera

- a Platoon, even if minimum sized though often not to serve as a defence against deep striking etc

- at least one Vet squad to reliably deliver the goods

 

Things I always think about:

- ways to add mobility, from faster/outflanking units like Sentinels to simply having so many units I can go anywhere in time...

- best ways to deploy heavy anti-tank and anti-MC weapons; usually this means on vehicles for mobility

- do I have enough big guns? killing troops is easy, especially as Guard but we need to specialise/dedicate to take on the big stuff

- can I trade toys for boys?

 

 

The last point is key I think. I try to keep units as cheap as possible while still being effective. For example my tanks rarely have upgrades and nothing expensive. Part of our strength is numbers, in turn bringing more fire power as well as redundancy. This approach has helped me stay more competitive against the more modern and stronger codices :) A battle of attrition should be one where the Guard have the home ground advantage ;)

[varchilde]

I'd echo a lot of the stuff that's been said above ^^

 

Especially Orders. Orders. Orders. They make the infantry into something scary. Plasma and melta are great. Ignores cover or tank/monster hunting plasma/melta is amazing. Roll the CCS forward with the Vets and cause mayhem. And don't scrimp on the Vox Casters!

[Brother Captain Ed]

I'd echo a lot of the stuff that's been said above ^^

 

Especially Orders. Orders. Orders. They make the infantry into something scary. Plasma and melta are great. Ignores cover or tank/monster hunting plasma/melta is amazing. Roll the CCS forward with the Vets and cause mayhem. And don't scrimp on the Vox Casters!

I'm glad you said that. 

 

I think I need to get my head around orders to really understand how to utilize infantry.  I've seen the words "build for orders" in a few places and I was confused.  Is it not something that's normally done?  How is it done?  Vox casters and the auto-reliquary?

 

And what do you normally take that's designed to use them?  A few lascannons chilling in the back with the colonel getting tank hunter seems like it should hurt things... Or does that not generally happen?

[Ulrik_Ironfist]

Orders definitely make the Guard more effective, however, it's not necessarily the way to go. For instance, if you're running two squads of Mechanized vets in chimeras, with a tank commander and a lot of tanks, then orders aren't something you're going to focus on. And if you want to take advantage of orders, you either pray for your warlord trait to give your Lord Commissar the Voice of Command rule, or you make room for Yarrick, which is better in my opinion. 

 

So really it's going to depend on what you're looking for. In order for Vox Casters to work, the officer's unit must have one, and then the subordinate units must have one. Don't misunderstand me, orders can be essential for Mechanized tank heavy forces too, but really only the senior officer orders. Which means Yarrick or a CCS. As for how to make orders effective, a Vox network (basically Vox Casters in every infantry unit) with a relic that improves orders (like the Auto-Reliquary or Volkov's Cane). I prefer the Big Shouty Stick (Volkov's Cane) because it's a bit more useful. Unfortunately, the use of the Shouty Stick restricts you to only Cadian Characters, so no Yarrick or Straken or any FW characters. Now If you're running lots of tanks, Kabe's Herald (with the same restriction as Volkov's Cane) can be extremely useful. It allows any tank squadron to receive orders from the tank commander within it's bubble (12" if I remember correctly). 

 

Now, I really prefer to run from the FW books, so platoons and the CS are really the only places you get vox casters, and the grenadiers are mostly for getting into close range and shooting the crap out of something (Hotshots with carapace armor...), Or I run from the Armored Battlegroup (so I tend to lean more towards tanks). I don't really worry about orders so much with ABG, since the order that I really want (tank hunters) comes with vets. 

 

I hope that helps somewhat.