To start with Astra...

[Brother Captain Ed]

Thank you.

 

Yes it is somewhat more clear.  I guess my issue is that I’m trying to walk the line between fluff and effectiveness.  I’m most definitely NOT trying to make a “fluffy” army…but the Guard “class fantasy” (to borrow a World of Warcraft term) for me is most definitely the Cadian-style infantry officer or NCO, hunkered down on some hill somewhere under the waving standard, bellowing orders into a vox, over the sound of the thundering guns.  If I can’t capture at least some of that feel, then why spend the time and money?

 

But I also hate losing.  Not so much that it’s a big deal, of course.  But games where you know you’re just a punching bag for your opponent’s dice (“Hmmm…should I settle for my 13-2 win or go for the table??”) aren’t fun.  So, I’m not just gonna take a couple platoons and some Basilisks.

 

I’m trying to strike that fine line, though.  And I’m not sure where it lies.  But I think I want to err on the side with more dudes than average and I think that means orders (maybe even orders for artillery with the Emperor’s Wrath formation) and I think that means fewer Russes than might be prudent.  Especially since I want to pair the Guardsmen with a DW Kill Team in a pod (If a list doesn’t have pods, why play it? ;) ).  That’s at least one Russ worth of points right there. 

 

So, a CAD (or and Emperor’s Blade) with an Emperor’s Wrath battery sounds like I need to build for orders.  What about commissars?  Should a couple squads have them?  They do raise Leadership...

 

Oh and what’s the deal with heavy weapon teams?  If they’re not in their special squad do they just tag along?  I don’t think I’ve ever seen them played outside a heavy weapons squad, but I keep seeing them in 1s and 2s in the list forum.

[WarriorFish]

Bassies are good just need to be cheaper ideally, they certainly hit hard enough - some HWTs to de-mech the enemy before the shells drop would help them a lot though Bassies are effective at stripping hull points and damaging tanks. Sadly the lack of any bonus to the damage table prevents them from being truly effective tank hunters. Lots of cheap Guard squads can do well, often providing more than your opponent can realistically deal with is a strategy in itself.

So maybe some infantry squads with HWTs are in order? They replace two members of the squad which is straight forward, and can sit back helping protect your lines and objectives as cheaper special weapon armed squads move up and intercept. Commissars are better for back field squads (priests for assaulting/tar pit/blobs) but I'd say the points would be better spent on more units.

As to fluff vs competitive such is the scope the Guard has in the background I'm not sure it's even possible to make an unfluffy Guard list

[duz_]

I think the closest you could get to an "OP" guard list would be something along the lines of 3x 3x Wyvrens, Hellhammer, Psykana Division spam and some conscripts...

Any I'm curious as to how effective that would be 

 

I think go for it you probably won't up set too many people but still have a decent shot at winning

LoWs at least in my opinion its always a courtesy to ask if you want to bring one (even if ours are absurdly over costed)

2 wyvrens is friendly any more and you start becoming that guy

 

Commissars and priests share very similar roles but are notable different

Priests are great for tarpitting enemy units being fearless

Commissars are better if you want your unit to hold their ground, but still take advantage of cover if the need arises (especially if you have an aegis defence line)

 

My rule of thumb is unless the unit is at least 20 models I wont include either as its just not worth the points. 

[WarriorFish]

Good post duz.

LoWs at least in my opinion its always a courtesy to ask if you want to bring one (even if ours are absurdly over costed)

Though this made me sad by how true it is Compared to the likes of Knights and various xenos walkers the Baneblade variants pale due to the cost difference

[M@verik115]

The baneblade is actually well costed, its the other things which are too cheap. 

[WarriorFish]

Six of one, half a dozen of the other Considering that the other things have all been more recent though I'd say "undercosted" is the correct half of the glass ;) As nice as it'd be to see certain units get a big price bump it's unlikely. Besides, how else would GW sell us three Baneblade dataslates?

[M@verik115]

Unless Russes drop in points, I dont see it happening. 
Baneblade costs have always followed the approximate costs of 3 Leman Russ Battle Tanks. 

[Canadian_F_H]

Hey. Landraiders are over priced too guys. ;) :(

 

 

I'm still torn about what to do with my guard...

 

Problem is I'm trying to build a genestealer cult guard... (atart and end that part of the discussion there tho)

 

And a heretic traitor guard... from imp armour books to ally with my chaos marines

 

 

I just want to set up in house an epic 3 way slugfest of massed infantry and tanks...

[M@verik115]

Hey. Landraiders are over priced too guys.

I'm still torn about what to do with my guard...

Problem is I'm trying to build a genestealer cult guard... (atart and end that part of the discussion there tho)

And a heretic traitor guard... from imp armour books to ally with my chaos marines

I just want to set up in house an epic 3 way slugfest of massed infantry and tanks...

A brother templar cavorting with xeno and traitor scum?!

Honestly do whatever you feel like the genestealer cult is an awesome and fluffy army.

I plan on starting one next year once I finish my tyranids.

As for traitor guard they are great as well.

Just keep it fluffy and you will enjoy it.

So far ive got a large cadian force, small vostroyan detachment and I hope to add traitors and cultists to it for themed games.

[Canadian_F_H]

Lol.

 

Actually this all goes with the fact that gaming groups come and go, people buy off and sell armies and trade hobbies... I want to keep my friends close and my enemies closer...

 

So I will own several enemy armies so if I find anyone who wants to play 40k but is intimidated by start up cost I can say. "Come over and play with one of these!"

[M@verik115]

Thats exactly what I do. 
I like to have opposing sides of every wargame. 
Its easier to teach people, plus if it ever dies out, I can play with myself and some mates :P 

[Canadian_F_H]

Thats exactly what I do.

I like to have opposing sides of every wargame.

Its easier to teach people, plus if it ever dies out, I can play with myself and some mates :P

Exactly.

 

Hidden Content

My loyalist core is black templars knights and imperial guard. A spatering of DA, BA, and DWatch.

 

Chaos space marines and traitor guards.

 

Nids and genestealer cults

 

I'd like to get orks to do an armageddon 3 campaign...

 

 

Lots of fun

 

 

So yeah. I think 1 more PCS box, and then some of the chimera INF boxes to save money and set asside the GSC sprues for later...

 

 

 

To the OP

 

Do you have any army lists worked out yet? Something to put a target on.

 

I fiddle with battlescribe a lot (aka way to much) so I worked out lists that build incrementally up sometimes vesting into although lists...

 

For example. Right now I have for IG

 

A 500pt foot slogger list

A 500pt vet mech list

750 slog

750 mech

1k slog

1k mech

1k slog + H.armour

1250 s,m,h etc

1500 each and mixes

1750 each and mix

1850 ...

2k ...

 

Actually I've done this for most of my armies skipping a few steps here and there.

[duz_]

Lots of fun

 

 

So yeah. I think 1 more PCS box, and then some of the chimera INF boxes to save money and set asside the GSC sprues for later...

Yes that box is good value! Like the old armoured fist box set. When I want to up my chimera count ill be grabbing those too!

[M@verik115]

The PCS is great for special weapons. 

[Ulrik_Ironfist]

Thank you.

Yes it is somewhat more clear. I guess my issue is that I’m trying to walk the line between fluff and effectiveness. I’m most definitely NOT trying to make a “fluffy” army…but the Guard “class fantasy” (to borrow a World of Warcraft term) for me is most definitely the Cadian-style infantry officer or NCO, hunkered down on some hill somewhere under the waving standard, bellowing orders into a vox, over the sound of the thundering guns. If I can’t capture at least some of that feel, then why spend the time and money?

As WarriorFish said, the background for guard is so vast and varied, not to mention in many instances intentionally vague, that any guard list you make will be fluffy. I completely understand your wish to capture the vision you have of guard.

When I started Guard, I went the Elysian Drop Troops route (After figuring out that Militarum Tempestus are rather poop on their own). I wanted Valkyries to swoop in playing Wagner dropping off my Veterans and Stormtroopers, ala Apocalypse Now. That was my vision, it's changed, as I'm sure yours will, as you evolve your force to give yourself a variety of play options.

But I also hate losing. Not so much that it’s a big deal, of course. But games where you know you’re just a punching bag for your opponent’s dice (“Hmmm…should I settle for my 13-2 win or go for the table??”) aren’t fun. So, I’m not just gonna take a couple platoons and some Basilisks.

I completely understand. Big thing is that you play an army you like. If you play a list that you don't like, you won't be able to use it as effectively. I went Elysians because I'm thoroughly comfortable with the Air Assault Doctrine, and I know how it works, inside and out. I grew to like tanks and artillery, especially as I began to study more about armored warfare. I'd recommend at least one platoon though (I'd say no more than the PCS+ 3 Infantry Squads, with some Heavy weapons squads to give yourself some options). Vets in chimeras are quite good and very mobile, so that will certainly help out in those maelstrom games. Since the advent of Maelstrom, the Guard Gunline has fallen out of favor, though it is certainly still viable. Some artillery should find it's way into your list, which you seem to already have in mind, more on that later.

I’m trying to strike that fine line, though. And I’m not sure where it lies. But I think I want to err on the side with more dudes than average and I think that means orders (maybe even orders for artillery with the Emperor’s Wrath formation) and I think that means fewer Russes than might be prudent. Especially since I want to pair the Guardsmen with a DW Kill Team in a pod (If a list doesn’t have pods, why play it? ). That’s at least one Russ worth of points right there.

My typical Kreig Assault Brigade lists usually have 3 Squads of Grenadiers (Vets with Hotshots, Krak Grenades, and Carapace Armor) in chimeras, backed up by a Platoon of foot slogging infantry. That is supported by at least 2-5 Russes (2 demolishers, and 3 vanquisher forward Command tanks). Artillery is provided by a heavy weapons platoon with 2 mortar squads (since krieg doesn't get Wyverns). The amount of stuff you take is obviously dependent on points level.

With orders, just remember that they're a force multiplier, not a win button. Build to take advantage of orders, but don't rely on them (they are a leadership test after all, and they do occasionally fail, not to mention the limited amount you can issue). I have seen my Veterans annihilate wraiths and terminators with a withering barrage of lasgun fire, due to orders, but I have also seen them get charged by blood angels and die horribly in combat because I failed my orders and the squad was still in position to get charged.

As for pods... I have valkyries and the ability to field elysians. Combat drop is basically Drop Pod Assault, only Valkyries instead of Pods, and Valkyries can move and bring lots more firepower to the fight...

So, a CAD (or and Emperor’s Blade) with an Emperor’s Wrath battery sounds like I need to build for orders. What about commissars? Should a couple squads have them? They do raise Leadership...

The Emperor's Blade and Emperor's Wrath are two of the four shining stars from the Cadia/Mont'Ka supplements. The others are the Emperor's Fist and the Emperor's Spear. I am one hellhound away from an Emperor's Blade, and I do want to complete it. There is no need to build for orders with the emperor's wrath, since you can't take vox casters on artillery tanks, if you take an Emperor's Blade in addition to the Emperor's Wrath, you will most certainly want to take vox casters, since that will let you draw line of sight for your EW, in addition to improving your orders.

As for commissars, I'd leave that to blobs, allowing you to maximize the utility of one. Combined Infantry Squads should have one, and Conscripts can benefit. Conscripts are better served by a priest, since their shooting is poop and the big thing they have going for them is numbers. The Priest will give Conscripts fearless, making them a huge tarpit. Other than that, if you've built to take advantage of orders, you have the "Get Back in the Fight!" order, which will turn any squad around.

Oh and what’s the deal with heavy weapon teams? If they’re not in their special squad do they just tag along? I don’t think I’ve ever seen them played outside a heavy weapons squad, but I keep seeing them in 1s and 2s in the list forum.

1 Heavy weapon team may be taken in a Company Command Squad and veteran squad (as a veteran weapons team, BS4), or in a Platoon Command Squad and Infantry squad (at Guardsman BS3). They also make up Heavy Weapons Squads. Each Heavy weapons team replaces 2 troopers when taken in a CCS, PCS, IS, or Vet Squad.

For Instance a good harassment build for vets is Forward Sentries (Camo Cloaks and Snare mines), 3 Sniper Rifles, and an Autocannon Heavy Weapons Team, with vox. Pick it as one of your infiltrators if you manage to roll master of ambush and it will be in position to do maximum damage.

I hope this helps. Guard relies on combined arms to win. If you think of 40k armies in terms of mechanical gear systems, Marines are a simple 2 cog system. Imperial Guard are more like a planetary gear set. If one cog fails the whole system ceases to function. It also means that every piece of the set has a specific job, but focus on differing parts turn by turn can drastically affect the outcome of the game.

One of Guard's strengths, and it's greatest obstacle, is it's in game tactical flexibility. Guard is the most challenging army to play. We don't have the level of cheese that other armies do, and we do only one thing well, so the ability to change gears mid game is essential.

Tactics are the way guard wins games. Let the other armies have their cheese. A guard player never truly loses until he quits. When you play Guard you learn from every game. I think it was Sun Tzu who said, "You can learn more in defeat, than you can in victory."

[Ulrik_Ironfist]

Good post duz.

LoWs at least in my opinion its always a courtesy to ask if you want to bring one (even if ours are absurdly over costed)

Though this made me sad by how true it is Compared to the likes of Knights and various xenos walkers the Baneblade variants pale due to the cost difference

True. Even knights have efficacy problems when compared to the likes of the Stormsurge or WraithKnight. Having an armor value in 7th edition makes anything easy to deal with, including superheavies. Considering you only see the monstrous creatures on the table, and given the prevalence of them, I think that taking a Lord of war is not a problem. Well, until you start getting into the Forgeworld stuff. Titans are a bit much (knights don't count, I'm talking Warhounds and reavers and warlords...) to deal with in a friendly game, but even then, I think it's fair, since that's a hefty chunk of their points.

Generally I won't refuse to face anything on the table. I'll do my best to be a gracious opponent. I encourage my friends to optimize lists, I think it's absurdly fun to see who can out-cheese the other guy. I tend to optimize my lists without thinking about it.

Thats exactly what I do.

I like to have opposing sides of every wargame.

Its easier to teach people, plus if it ever dies out, I can play with myself and some mates

I too feel this way.

Hidden Content

My loyalists are:

Raven Guard (mostly Assault Marines and scouts)

Space Wolves/VIth Legion Sons of Russ

Imperial Guard/Solar Auxilia/Militia Imperialis

Dark Angels

Imperial Knights

Xenos:

Tau Empire/Farsight Enclaves

Necrons

Orks (Unbuilt)

Most of my games have been against my own armies.

[Brother Captain Ed]

Thank you everybody, but especially Ulrik and Warriorfish who have spilled all that digital ink thus far, so very much for taking the time to discuss these issues!  I really appreciate it as I start getting these models together and experimenting with a new play style. 

 

The nice thing about a second army is that it’s really a labor of love.  I’ve got my first Cadian Shock Troop sprues and I’m looking forward to getting FW and other vendor bits to make colorful Veterans, officers, commissars, etc., with character.  Since I first cut my teeth on 40k with Dawn of War, that’s probably my strongest influence (I’d build a lightning claw colonel if the CCS wasn’t so completely undesigned for it).  So, when I say “fluffy” it’s not really that I’m worried about creating something OP or wildly unmoored from the setting (like Taudar or whatever) but rather that I’m accepting a certain degree of…unstreamlined (if you will) list building.  So, my company commander will have a standard…because the commander should have his guidon present.  My troopers will have a vox…because they need a radio.  My list will have a commissar in it somewhere…because each company should have one.  So, not so much fluffy as much as just iconically Cadian imperial guard.  “We are here to die for the Emperor or die trying!”

 

Elysian drop troops sound like fun (though I haven’t seen them on the tabletop), I just ruled them out because I tend to avoid Forge World rules.  That was normal when I started back in the 4th to 5th Ed transition, but now that the line is blurring ever further, maybe I need to get over it.  I do love the Air Cav concept.  I’d have to find kasrkin models though.  I do not like the MT look at all.

 

Anyway, with the above in mind, here’s my first (extremely) rough concept.

 

Primary Detachment:
CAD
-CCS
--Carapace, Standard, Vox
--Chimera

 

Infantry Platoon
-PCS
--Vox
--Chimera
-Infantry Squad
--Vox, Flamer/Grenade Launcher
-Infantry Squad
--Vox, Flamer/Grenade Launcher

-Veteran Squad
--Vox, Melta x3
--Chimera

-Veteran Squad
--Vox, Melta x3
--Chimera

 

Emperor’s Wrath Artillery Company
-CCS
--Volkov’s Cane
-Basilisk
-Wyvern
-Manticore
-Enginseer
--Servitor

 

Aquila Kill Team
-Veteran Squad
--Watch Sergeant
--Vet w/Shotgun, Storm Shield x2
--Vet w/ Frag Cannon
--Librarian, ML2
--Vanguard Vet, Power Sword, Melta Bomb
--Veterans x2

 

Initial thoughts:
So here we have an Infantry company with an artillery company and a Deathwatch kill team to support them. 

This weighs in at 1633 pts.  So we’ve blown past 1k and 1.5k games without trying (not that that is a big deal).  It does have some room for toys at 1850, though. 

 

But, even so, the infantry are basically naked: no commander/commissar relic, no real defined role for the commander or the Infantry Platoon, and not very many bodies.  No heavy weapons or serious staying power that I can discern. 

 

The artillery could only be cheaper by downgrading the Basilisk into another Wyvern (I think the cane and the servitor are at least mostly necessary) but it’s still expensive for only three guns and with the three different kinds of artillery I am concerned that its purpose is somewhat diluted. 

 

There are a fair number of Chimeras, but every vehicle, including the gun chassis’, is naked.  No HK missiles, extra armor, pintle-mounted secondaries, etc.  That might not be necessary, but it seems like cause for concern.

 

Finally, the Kill Team briefs well in concept, but I am finding that the cost mushrooms the moment you decide they will be anything more than a Sternguard squad.  That kill team is 367 points.  Too dang much.  If it was really survivable or you knew that it’d evaporate the enemy HQ or scary elite choice upon landing, that’d be one thing.  But I’m not seeing it.  It’s just not addressing any serious weaknesses for the points.  I think it might just be a Bad Idea™.

 

I am consistently shocked at how quickly this codex spends points.  Right now this list has no commissars, no heavy weapons, no Hellhounds, no tanks, no air support, and no fun, unique models like ratlings or ogryn (Nork Deddog seems like a fun little addition to the colonel’s team) but there just isn’t any room.  Furthermore, I don’t think I really understand how to kit out an IG infantry squad like I do a tac squad.  I’d have never thought to make a vet squad with “Forward Sentries (Camo Cloaks and Snare mines), 3 Sniper Rifles, and an Autocannon Heavy Weapons Team” though it makes sense to see it spelled out.  This is hampering my design space. 

 

Clearly I need more refinement.  How should I sculpt this idea from here?

[WarriorFish]

FW has some nice bits, especially if you want to spruce up Vets and the odd CCS model :) You have a good start, perhaps the KT idea should be held back for now as you focus on your Guard?

 

You need to forget how you play as a Marine, as it will only reduce your effectiveness. Guard models are best focused on a particular task/role - all of which should work together for a cohesive whole. In some ways lists write themselves, as the codex has limitations on more effective builds but there is plenty of room for customising. For example your infantry sections look fine, just a few tweaks like a couple of special weapons on the command squads could round them off nicely.

[Ulrik_Ironfist]

Thank you everybody, but especially Ulrik and Warriorfish who have spilled all that digital ink thus far, so very much for taking the time to discuss these issues!  I really appreciate it as I start getting these models together and experimenting with a new play style. 

You're quite welcome. I'm a blend of soldier tropes, I'm the Grizzled old Colonel/Sergeant that will take you under his wing, and the Fresh young Lieutenant/Private, full of energy and eager to please. I'm happy to help, especially if it betters your gaming experience. I'm pretty good at theory and application, though my recent experience has been low, since I'm at work when everyone else is not, and I don't get a lot of time to hobby or game.

 

 

The nice thing about a second army is that it’s really a labor of love.  I’ve got my first Cadian Shock Troop sprues and I’m looking forward to getting FW and other vendor bits to make colorful Veterans, officers, commissars, etc., with character.  Since I first cut my teeth on 40k with Dawn of War, that’s probably my strongest influence (I’d build a lightning claw colonel if the CCS wasn’t so completely undesigned for it).  So, when I say “fluffy” it’s not really that I’m worried about creating something OP or wildly unmoored from the setting (like Taudar or whatever) but rather that I’m accepting a certain degree of…unstreamlined (if you will) list building.  So, my company commander will have a standard…because the commander should have his guidon present.  My troopers will have a vox…because they need a radio.  My list will have a commissar in it somewhere…because each company should have one.  So, not so much fluffy as much as just iconically Cadian imperial guard.  “We are here to die for the Emperor or die trying!”

I completely understand the sentiment. Even if I don't take vox casters, every squad still has them. Since I have recently been building lists from the Krieg Assault Brigade, I must take a standard, so I feel you there, even if I don't, the standard bearer ends up being a lasgun guy or something, but the banner is still there. In the elysian list, the standard bearer can take an Auxiliary grenade launcher, so he's far more useful than just allowing re-rolls. 

 

As for Commissars, it's going to depend on the regiment. Catachans for instance don't have many commissars, since they don't tend to survive. Krieg Commissars tend to get bored, and are often less indoctrinated and inflexible than their troops. Cadian Regiments will have a typical number of Commissars, while Cadian PDF might not. Harakoni Warhawks (who wear cadian style armor) use few commissars, due to their unique methods of war (Drop Regiment of Vets and Stormtroopers), similar story with Elysians (less emphasis on more "elite" troops). 

 

It's your army, and you can do with it as you please, I'm just giving you some extra info to make a decision.

 

 

Elysian drop troops sound like fun (though I haven’t seen them on the tabletop), I just ruled them out because I tend to avoid Forge World rules.  That was normal when I started back in the 4th to 5th Ed transition, but now that the line is blurring ever further, maybe I need to get over it.  I do love the Air Cav concept.  I’d have to find kasrkin models though.  I do not like the MT look at all.

They are fun, though they are a bit of a glass cannon. Forgeworld rules are very fair and balanced, considering they are constructed solely to mesh fluff with crunch. FW lists are often overcosted when compared to the base C:AM. Still, I like them, and if you feel inclined, you might try them out. Nothing says you have to buy forgeworld models to use the rules. For my Elysians, I actually run them as Harakoni Warhawks, which is to say I don't run infantry platoons. Vets and Stormies (the good 5E ones, with the special operations rule and pistol/CCW) are the way I do Elysians. As for disliking the MTScions, I don't much care for them either, though with Skitarii Vanguard heads they would make excellent Solar Auxilia. 

 

 

 

Hidden Content

Primary Detachment:

CAD

-CCS

--Carapace, Standard, Vox

--Chimera

 

Infantry Platoon

-PCS

--Vox

--Chimera

-Infantry Squad

--Vox, Flamer/Grenade Launcher

-Infantry Squad

--Vox, Flamer/Grenade Launcher

-Veteran Squad

--Vox, Melta x3

--Chimera

-Veteran Squad

--Vox, Melta x3

--Chimera

 

Emperor’s Wrath Artillery Company

-CCS

--Volkov’s Cane

-Basilisk

-Wyvern

-Manticore

-Enginseer

--Servitor

 

Aquila Kill Team

-Veteran Squad

--Watch Sergeant

--Vet w/Shotgun, Storm Shield x2

--Vet w/ Frag Cannon

--Librarian, ML2

--Vanguard Vet, Power Sword, Melta Bomb

--Veterans x2

 

 

 

That looks like a fair start. Though I think you'll struggle with massed infantry. Demolishers and Leman Russ Battle Tanks are the big reasons why I started going after tanks. I agree with WF on the command squad, special weapons might make a difference. You might also consider some advisors as well. I never leave home without a Master of Ordnance in my CCS. Having a once a turn basilisk shot to drop on the enemy never hurts. Since you have multiple CCS in your list, you can take multiple MoO's. An Officer of the Fleet might also be helpful later on if you decide to add reserve elements like flyers (If you do, the Vulture and the Thunderbolt are the best options in my opinion), or if you want to screw your opponent out of his reserves (OotF bonuses stack, so take one in each CCS, for ultimate denial). 

 

On your veteran squads, I'd drop the third melta in favor of a heavy flamer. Reason being, you can only fire 2 weapons from the top hatch, meaning one melta will not be doing anything. The squad inside can overwatch out of the hatch though, and flamers cause d3 auto hits, so why not? Mech vets are best left in their transport, especially if they're kitted for tank hunting.

 

My MoO was my only source of artillery for the longest time, now I have a wyvern to add to it. Unfortunately, only the C:AM can take the Wyvern right now...

 

 

Initial thoughts:

So here we have an Infantry company with an artillery company and a Deathwatch kill team to support them. 

This weighs in at 1633 pts.  So we’ve blown past 1k and 1.5k games without trying (not that that is a big deal).  It does have some room for toys at 1850, though. 

As I said, not a terrible start. It's certainly playable.

 

 

But, even so, the infantry are basically naked: no commander/commissar relic, no real defined role for the commander or the Infantry Platoon, and not very many bodies.  No heavy weapons or serious staying power that I can discern. 

You'll find that the only purposes for taking a CCS are Orders, Special Weapons, and advisors. Those are the big things to take away from that unit. Kitting the Commander for anything other than better issuing orders is a waste of points, considering that the other relics are mostly CC items and that's not where you want to be anyway (same story on the Standard, good for melee, not much use otherwise). 

 

The Current guard codex is still stuck in a 6th edition metagame. Melee is far less prevalent in 7th edition, and the focus is on fire and maneuver. Guardsman are only fast enough to take on tau and orks, and I don't want to attempt getting into combat with either of those forces (tau will shred you in overwatch, and orks will just eat you in melee). So most of the relics are pointless. 

 

Infantry staying power will be accomplished by getting in cover and staying there, and making your cover save as good as possible (that means camo gear) or putting them in a transport. The Platoon is out of luck though, as mech platoons are generally poop (too expensive for what you get) and platoons can't take camo gear. 

 

You have orders to make your men more survivable, get that CCS near your platoon to order them back into the fight after they go to ground to avoid shooting. 

 

 

The artillery could only be cheaper by downgrading the Basilisk into another Wyvern (I think the cane and the servitor are at least mostly necessary) but it’s still expensive for only three guns and with the three different kinds of artillery I am concerned that its purpose is somewhat diluted. 

I'd reserve the Cane for a CCS that will be issuing orders to infantry. More useful that way, since you can only take 1 of them. While it would get cheaper, it's more useful as it stands. Your build is actually the one I had in mind. 

 

 

There are a fair number of Chimeras, but every vehicle, including the gun chassis’, is naked.  No HK missiles, extra armor, pintle-mounted secondaries, etc.  That might not be necessary, but it seems like cause for concern.

The only real upgrades that most folks agree on are camo netting and pintle weapons. Pintle weapons are only useful for protecting the main gun from weapon destroyed results. Camo Netting is useful for artillery, since you'll want to park it in cover, take it. If you play gunline guard take Camo netting on all your vehicles (and park them all behind an aegis line for a sweet 3+ cover save, add a void shield for more rage...). I find that Extra armor is most useful on my sentinels, since it can still run if it can't shoot, meaning I can get it out of the line of fire, or onto an objective. Russ tanks are too slow to really matter, unless it's a short range tank (demolisher or eradicator or punisher). But the Russ can't do anything in the shooting phase except shoot so it's a moot point. Certain vehicles beg certain upgrades more than others.

 

Otherwise you'll find that naked is the way most of your vehicles will be. Gives you more points for upgrades where they really count, special weapons on vets.

 

Finally, the Kill Team briefs well in concept, but I am finding that the cost mushrooms the moment you decide they will be anything more than a Sternguard squad.  That kill team is 367 points.  Too dang much.  If it was really survivable or you knew that it’d evaporate the enemy HQ or scary elite choice upon landing, that’d be one thing.  But I’m not seeing it.  It’s just not addressing any serious weaknesses for the points.  I think it might just be a Bad Idea™.

This is all very true. You want an ally to address shortcomings. I usually like to take Space Wolves as my allied Marines, since SW excel at melee, and guard sucks in melee. The Kill team might be better suited covering for a C:MT force. I actually want to do the Inquisition Superfriends (Sisters of battle, Grey Knights, Death Watch, all with their respective inquisitors, and a squad of stormtroopers each). C:MT has limited access to high strength weapons, and is heavily reliant on allies to cover their shortfalls. C:AM needs cheap melee support from an ally, since Guard has the best tanks and aircraft in the game. I do also like walkers, so I tend towards dreads from SW as well...

 

 

I am consistently shocked at how quickly this codex spends points.  Right now this list has no commissars, no heavy weapons, no Hellhounds, no tanks, no air support, and no fun, unique models like ratlings or ogryn (Nork Deddog seems like a fun little addition to the colonel’s team) but there just isn’t any room.  Furthermore, I don’t think I really understand how to kit out an IG infantry squad like I do a tac squad.  I’d have never thought to make a vet squad with “Forward Sentries (Camo Cloaks and Snare mines), 3 Sniper Rifles, and an Autocannon Heavy Weapons Team” though it makes sense to see it spelled out.  This is hampering my design space. 

As WarriorFish said, each unit is a part of a larger whole. Guard requires a lot of Synergy to work, and each squad has to have a purpose when you kit them out. The SniperCannon squad is good for harassing monstrous creatures and light vehicles, while staying protected by a good cover save all while camping an objective. Mech vets with 2x Melta and a HF are great for going after vehicles. Sappers (Vets with Demolitions, Shotguns, and 3x Meltaguns) are also good against vehicles, especially if you can get them move through cover, or if you grav chute them from a valkyrie (it would be best to give them the Tallarn Desert Raider FW upgrade for Move through cover and re-roll 1's to hit). If you take Plasma vets, take the tallarn upgrade, or grenadiers (not both), to protect them from gets hot! rolls. 

 

Platoon infantry squads are pretty straightforward. If you want to take advantage of orders, give them a vox and that's it. Combine squads into a blob for lasgun destruction. Nothing says screw you like 30 guardsmen firing 84(87? do laspistols benefit from FRFSRF?) shots at 12" into a single target. Alternatively, you can kit each squad with a HWT and special weapon. Stay away from single shot weapons with regular guardsmen, the cost and BS3 generally isn't worth it. Missile Launchers, Heavy Bolters, Autocannons, and Mortars are your best bets. I personally like missile launchers, because if I'm desperate enough I can take a potshot with a krak missile, maybe I'll get lucky. Save HWT for gunline builds.

 

Platoon Command Squads are also the place for special weapons and a vox caster. Heavy weapons also fit here nicely too, though unless your platoon is going to gunline it up, I'd pass. 

 

 

Clearly I need more refinement.  How should I sculpt this idea from here?

Battlescribe and time will be your best friends. Experience will teach you what works, and that's what we're here for. We share our experience so you don't end up building an army you hate playing, or end up with a bunch of units that just sit on a shelf collecting dust. In the guard, use upgrades sparingly, most models come with exactly the wargear they need to be effective (Except scions, they're poop compared to 5e Stormies...).

[duz_]

I am consistently shocked at how quickly this codex spends points. Right now this list has no commissars, no heavy weapons, no Hellhounds, no tanks, no air support, and no fun, unique models like ratlings or ogryn (Nork Deddog seems like a fun little addition to the colonel’s team) but there just isn’t any room.

Yup you hit the nail on the head. Our points efficiency sucks at the moment. You will really need to pick a theme and run with it ie

Tanks

Artillery

Troops or

Mechanized vets

 

One strong theme with a touch of one of the others

Unfortunately if you go tanks/artillery that will probably be troops because they need to be baby sat in case of close combat.

 

Good start to a list though

I'd add a second wyvren always

Also I'm not sure if you want to include a GL and flamer in each squad or can't decide because you can only have one special weapon per regular infantry squad

Both are good options IMHO, just depends if you want anti horde and overwatch protection or the odd S6AP4 shot

[Brother Captain Ed]

 

 

That looks like a fair start. Though I think you'll struggle with massed infantry. Demolishers and Leman Russ Battle Tanks are the big reasons why I started going after tanks. I agree with WF on the command squad, special weapons might make a difference. You might also consider some advisors as well. I never leave home without a Master of Ordnance in my CCS. Having a once a turn basilisk shot to drop on the enemy never hurts. Since you have multiple CCS in your list, you can take multiple MoO's. An Officer of the Fleet might also be helpful later on if you decide to add reserve elements like flyers (If you do, the Vulture and the Thunderbolt are the best options in my opinion), or if you want to screw your opponent out of his reserves (OotF bonuses stack, so take one in each CCS, for ultimate denial). 

 

Thank you!  I appreciate any and all feedback since I’m still fumbling in the dark.  Demolishers and LRBTs (well, any LR variant, really) seem like good additions to almost any list.  Perhaps cancelling the request for aid from the Deathwatch and simply emptying the motorpool would be a better use of points?

 

I am also glad you brought up advisors!  I was going to ask about them, but forgot.  A MoO not only sounds pretty good for five measly meltabombs, but is downright fluffy for an artillery battery.  I also think an OotF is neat, but perhaps not something to invest in until I experiment with Air Cav.  I overlooked the Astropath at first, but I’m wondering if that was a mistake.  Telepathy has a great primaris and the Astropath is cheap.  Which also leads me to wonder about Primaris Psykers and/or Wyrdvanes.  Is it worth it to generate some charges and toss a bit of lightning at whatever gets close to the colonel?

 

 

On your veteran squads, I'd drop the third melta in favor of a heavy flamer. Reason being, you can only fire 2 weapons from the top hatch, meaning one melta will not be doing anything. The squad inside can overwatch out of the hatch though, and flamers cause d3 auto hits, so why not? Mech vets are best left in their transport, especially if they're kitted for tank hunting.

See?  This is what I mean about squad composition.  It makes sense, but I wouldn’t have realized that.  I will do so.  For a squad of plasma vets, is it the same, but with plasma instead of melta?  Or is there another principle I should be aware of?

 

Ok, we talked about advisors.  Orders and Special Weapons…

 

So, Volkov’s Cane seems to be the gold standard for helping orders.  The Auto-Reliquary also seems good.  A vox-net is also needed.  Is that it as far as consideration for orders go?

 

What about special weapons?  I didn’t have any in the posted list because I’m not really sure how to approach it.  A CCS (and PCS, for that matter) is radically different from a Marine Command Squad.  Since they are in the command Chimera, should they be kitted out like Vets?  Or given as much anti-infantry as possible to squash deep strikers in the backfield?  Or neither because I’m not used to thinking like a Guardsman?  Should PCS’s be armed differently than CCS’s?  Or is the principle the same?

Also I'm not sure if you want to include a GL and flamer in each squad or can't decide because you can only have one special weapon per regular infantry squad

Both are good options IMHO, just depends if you want anti horde and overwatch protection or the odd S6AP4 shot

 

No, I know it’s one or the other.  They just the same cost and I am not sure which is the better choice.  I am leaning toward defaulting to the flamer, though.

[WarriorFish]

Double melta and heavy flamer is one of my preferred Vet builds, lets you have some flexibility without much compromise and most things don't like a heavy flamer so that's some nice anti-infantry too. I also default to the flamer as a squad weapon, though I like to give a couple of grenade launchers to PCSs to give them something without a large threat light on their heads. PCSs only have BS3, so cheap weapons are best - flamer squads are great of course but most won't let them get close which is why I don't go above two special weapons.

The CCS is usually your Warlord unit, so they can't be exactly the same as Vets as they need to get close to be effective. I prefer to keep them back dealing orders, and only move up to counter attack/problem solve. Plasma is one of my favourites, as it has extra range to keep them safer and a medic can mitigate Gets Hot Also a good counter to the units that usually turn up in your lines uninvited

[zero88]

The PCS is probably best with three flamers (two if you have a Vox) and a Heavy Flamer since they have a lower Ballistic skill. Four grenade launchers are also attractive as they are cheap and flow with walking and issuing orders.

 

As for the CCS,some like kitting them out as a dedicated shooting unit, with carapace and quad plasma guns. It packs a huge punch but also makes them a huge target.. so that call is really yours. A pair of melts guns to go with your Vox network would go well, as it's cheap and you can shoot both out the top hatch.

[Canadian_F_H]

I feel plasma and melta is best on vets for BS, some ablative wounds etc.

 

CCS I'd give grenade launchers because they can move and fire 3 x s6 AP4 shots out to 24" so they can stay well behind other infantry etc. And they will appear lower priority targets vs plasma melta veterans.

 

I've said before PCS with x flamer ND heavy flamer for moving into the path of enemy close combat troops. (Chew on my 3d3 wall of death) bs3 won't matter, and they will still be cheap.

 

Seams like the way to go imo.

 

On INF. I can't get my head around anything other than the GL. 1 flamer isn't much and you need to get close. Plasma and melta craves a different target from 8 or 9 lasguns. Also not cheap and bs3. So just GL . SCATTER 3" template might still hit better than a lasgun... lol

[Ulrik_Ironfist]

Thank you!  I appreciate any and all feedback since I’m still fumbling in the dark.  Demolishers and LRBTs (well, any LR variant, really) seem like good additions to almost any list.  Perhaps cancelling the request for aid from the Deathwatch and simply emptying the motorpool would be a better use of points?

You're welcome. I prefer Leman Russ Demolishers, Battle Tanks, Eradicators, and Vanquishers on Tank Commanders. The Large Blasts from the Demolisher, Battle Tank, and Eradicator negate the BS3 somewhat making them more reliable to hit with. Never take sponsons on tanks with ordnance, or on vanquishers, they cost too many points and usually end up doing nothing. Vanquishers are Tank Destroyers, so you want to keep at range and shoot at heavy vehicles (so heavy bolters and plasma cannons are out since they lack the punch to get through the AV14 it will be hunting, and multi-meltas need to get too close in order to be effective). The eradicator begs for heavy flamers all around, so feel free to take the torch tank, just remember that it needs to get close to burn the bad guys out. Deploying the Motor Pool is a good way to get utility out of guard.

 

 

I am also glad you brought up advisors!  I was going to ask about them, but forgot.  A MoO not only sounds pretty good for five measly meltabombs, but is downright fluffy for an artillery battery.  I also think an OotF is neat, but perhaps not something to invest in until I experiment with Air Cav.  I overlooked the Astropath at first, but I’m wondering if that was a mistake.  Telepathy has a great primaris and the Astropath is cheap.  Which also leads me to wonder about Primaris Psykers and/or Wyrdvanes.  Is it worth it to generate some charges and toss a bit of lightning at whatever gets close to the colonel?

Just remember to pic the MoO's targets carefully, pick a target rich environment, because he always scatters (2d6 on a direct hit in the direction of the little arrow on the hit marker, or 3d6 on an arrow). As such do not use him for supporting fire, unless you decide you can live with killing your own guardsmen (in some cases that would be fluffy, and not at all out of character, especially with conscripts). Remember that the OotF can also deny your opponent his reserves instead of getting you yours. The Astropath is not something I have ever really used, since most of my armies either don't really rely on them or have them (Tau and Necrons just don't have them, and Wolves don't really use them). 

 

Primaris Psykers are a decent unit, I've seen them do some nifty things, but at the end of the day Guard is about shooting lots of guns at the enemy, not so much mind bullets. So if you plan to use any psykers, use them in a support role, to buff your guard rather than directly attacking anything. Wyrdvanes are just an oddity in the codex, no one really uses them, and I don't have any real opinions on the unit aside from, "If you're not taking ratling, Ogryns, or Stormtroopers, I guess you could take Wyrdvanes..." but then, I'd question you as to why you're not taking Ratlings, Ogryn, or Stormtroopers. Now, Wyrdvanes and Primaris Psykers do shine in the Psykana Division formation (1-3 Primaris psykers, 1-3 Commissars, 3 Wrdvane Psyker Squads), potentially generating an enormous number of warp charges, with something like potentially 9 Mastery levels (don't count for rolling for powers though), they harness on 2+ if there is a commissar in the squad, and you just don't suffer perils of the warp (commissar executes a psyker before they explode). With that Guard is not a power on the psychic battlefield. Lots of points, and I'm not sure how you'd want to use it.

 

Is it worth it? That's up to you, do you really want to mess with the psychic phase? 

 

 

See?  This is what I mean about squad composition.  It makes sense, but I wouldn’t have realized that.  I will do so.  For a squad of plasma vets, is it the same, but with plasma instead of melta?  Or is there another principle I should be aware of?

For plasma vets, it's up to you, I tend to only take 2 plasma guns, simply because that's already 30 points, which I would have sunk into my melta/HF squad. A third plasma gun is optional, but since I send my plasma to hunt TEQ's, I find that the extra 3 lasgun shots from FRFSRF! is more valuable. YMMV.

 

 

So, Volkov’s Cane seems to be the gold standard for helping orders.  The Auto-Reliquary also seems good.  A vox-net is also needed.  Is that it as far as consideration for orders go?

 

What about special weapons?  I didn’t have any in the posted list because I’m not really sure how to approach it.  A CCS (and PCS, for that matter) is radically different from a Marine Command Squad.  Since they are in the command Chimera, should they be kitted out like Vets?  Or given as much anti-infantry as possible to squash deep strikers in the backfield?  Or neither because I’m not used to thinking like a Guardsman?  Should PCS’s be armed differently than CCS’s?  Or is the principle the same?

Bear in mind that Volkov's Cane is a Cadian relic, so it's use will bar you from taking any non Cadian Character in the same detachment. The Auto-Reliquary is the default choice for boosting orders if you want to attach, say Yarrick to your force. I don't use my CCS much anymore, since I'm mostly running from Forgeworld books. And when I don't, I take Pask in a Vanquisher and Yarrick in a scion/vet squad with vox, as a bodyguard along with 2 other mech scion/vet squads. Yarrick is my go to Senior Officer. 

 

My typical loadout for a CCS is this: Carapace, Vox, MoO, OotF, Heavy flamer, 2x Plasma. My Command Chimera usually sits still, behind a low wall, just enough to get cover, takes camo netting, and the MoO fires out the top hatch. I usually use the CCS to issue orders to nearby HWS (mortars, and I use the ignores cover order). If I feel it's needed I take camo gear. 

 

I generally deploy my CCS near my Heavy weapons section, it's usually in a wedge formation in my deployment zone. I take plasma to kill anything that gets too close. 

 

A CCS can take advantage of single shot weapons much more readily than a PCS, so if you want Lascannon teams, take them in vet squads or CCS's. The PCS is best served with Heavy bolters, autocannons, and mortars. PCS's should also just keep to flamers and grenade launchers to negate the BS3. Unless you have a specific purpose for the PCS, keep it cheap and cheerful. Avoid putting melee weapons on characters. Guard Characters (with a few exceptions) are not going to win challenges (usually, A friend's Abbadon will attest to this, the silly armless ponce...) so keep them cheap. 

 

Another ideal use for the CCS is to man an aegis line. 

 

You'll figure it out, we all did.