Applications for Legio XVIII

[simison]

*eyes Mikhal suspiciously* ...huh.

 

Max, the Qarith War: http://www.bolterandchainsword.com/topic/312238-the-qarith-triumph/

[Chief Captain Redd]

@Simison: Yep; that's the general concept of the Iron Tide, heavy fired dissecting the enemy troop formations and heavy Infantry smashing into the broken troops.

 

Also I love the Red Coat idea.4

Edited November 1, 2016 by Chief Captain Redd

[MikhalLeNoir]

*eyes Mikhal suspiciously* ...huh.

 

Max, the Qarith War: http://www.bolterandchainsword.com/topic/312238-the-qarith-triumph/

 

Of course there is no 2nd account. What for? I have a legion and the 2nd would ne only a fun project for modelling...if I had the time. And an idea.

[Sete]

The legionnaires try to follow the Primarch wishes and teachings,some following it to the letter, a small number is loyal to the Emperor through and through, and eventually they might be killed by the primarch. And there are others that will eventually dable into chaos, like their primarch they will try to follow their own fate.

Overall they are loyal, and zealously persue the primarch war strategies, but the older marines are conflicted with the cold and violent attitude of the primarch, and that might give chance for some conflict. A small sect, that found some forbidden lore might shake the foundations of the legion aswell. (W.i.P)

 

Am I misunderstanding the question?

Edited November 1, 2016 by Sete

[ckpmax1108]

 

 

Max, you are certainly interesting, but how on earth does Cain hide this info from telepaths? Like the Emperor? Or a certain telepathic Warmaster and his legion?

 

 

 

So before reading on, feel free to denounce any of my stances below. I'll be rambling on for a bit, so please be patient:

 

As the very definition of a Hive Mind, a gestalt collection of consciousness whose main driving force is a singular purpose or point of fulfilment. At the very core, its something completely vague and alien to our human understanding.

Its not the same as merely reading another persons thoughts or intentions, but more of a parallel way of thinking. Intentions, emotions, drivers run similarly, at the same wavelength and running parallel towards a common goal.

 

Humans by nature are not like that. There's too many things like personal bias that bar in the way of accessing a collective consciousness, or merely even comprehend it.

 

So my argument for The Devoured being totally called out on day 1 is thus;

• Let's say a person's mind is a corridor with many doors. Each one leading to a main room that houses one train of thought or emotion. A telepath simply walks down this path, picks a door and he gets to access what he needs (were too simple like that honestly).
• Now imagine the Hive Mind, as thousands or so of the same corridors above, but each room also housing doors leading to the other's corridors.
• So in face value, yes you can access the door. But how sure are you that's the information you're looking for, and not something the Hive Mind wants you to see? Their train of thought runs parallel, so they can access the exact door they need though the swathes of corridors and rooms they have, but you as a normal human, can you navigate such a vast and almost unending sea of closed information?

That's my argument to Hive Mind vs Telepath deal. He'll only let you peek at the rooms he wants you to see. This is especially true in Cain's case, as he assimilated the human genome into his system extensively, that the human nature he possesses he uses to understand his brother's trains of thought, twisting and manipulating it.

 

In that note, I'm not trying to make him an OP mental monster. He cannot mind control anyone, nor assert his being mentally into others that can just shut him out (that have strong mental barriers through intrusion). If their mind only follows the same wavelength as his, can he mold it to anyway he pleases (thus the implants of the parasite as a conduit for his influence...a clean slate is one that he can paint on.)

 

Hopefully this is not too much of a stretch :/

 

EDIT: Thanks for the link Sim!

Edited November 1, 2016 by ckpmax1108

[simison]

The legionnaires try to follow the Primarch wishes and teachings,some following it to the letter, a small number is loyal to the Emperor through and through, and eventually they might be killed by the primarch. And there are others that will eventually dable into chaos, like their primarch they will try to follow their own fate.

Overall they are loyal, and zealously persue the primarch war strategies, but the older marines are conflicted with the cold and violent attitude of the primarch, and that might give chance for some conflict. A small sect, that found some forbidden lore might shake the foundations of the legion aswell. (W.i.P)

 

Am I misunderstanding the question?

 

No, I'm going insane with work. I'm sorry about that. So, next question, since Sebastos hates the Emperor, why does the Emperor give him a legion?

 

 He'll only let you peek at the rooms he wants you to see. This is especially true in Cain's case, as he assimilated the human genome into his system extensively, that the human nature he possesses he uses to understand his brother's trains of thought, twisting and manipulating it.

In that note, I'm not trying to make him an OP mental monster. He cannot mind control anyone, nor assert his being mentally into others that can just shut him out (that have strong mental barriers through intrusion). If their mind only follows the same wavelength as his, can he mold it to anyway he pleases (thus the implants of the parasite as a conduit for his influence...a clean slate is one that he can paint on.)

 

Hopefully this is not too much of a stretch :/

 

 

I like your explanation, but it runs into the...wait, are you suggesting that the Hive Mind is controlling Cain? From 10,000 years into the future?

[ckpmax1108]

 

The legionnaires try to follow the Primarch wishes and teachings,some following it to the letter, a small number is loyal to the Emperor through and through, and eventually they might be killed by the primarch. And there are others that will eventually dable into chaos, like their primarch they will try to follow their own fate.

Overall they are loyal, and zealously persue the primarch war strategies, but the older marines are conflicted with the cold and violent attitude of the primarch, and that might give chance for some conflict. A small sect, that found some forbidden lore might shake the foundations of the legion aswell. (W.i.P)

 

Am I misunderstanding the question?

 

No, I'm going insane with work. I'm sorry about that. So, next question, since Sebastos hates the Emperor, why does the Emperor give him a legion?

 

 He'll only let you peek at the rooms he wants you to see. This is especially true in Cain's case, as he assimilated the human genome into his system extensively, that the human nature he possesses he uses to understand his brother's trains of thought, twisting and manipulating it.

In that note, I'm not trying to make him an OP mental monster. He cannot mind control anyone, nor assert his being mentally into others that can just shut him out (that have strong mental barriers through intrusion). If their mind only follows the same wavelength as his, can he mold it to anyway he pleases (thus the implants of the parasite as a conduit for his influence...a clean slate is one that he can paint on.)

 

Hopefully this is not too much of a stretch :/

 

 

I like your explanation, but it runs into the...wait, are you suggesting that the Hive Mind is controlling Cain? From 10,000 years into the future?

 

 

 

<We must tell the Hive Mind....he's on to us!!!!!>

 

In all honesty, I'm not aiming for a pseudo time-spiral-paradox-whatever (though holy crap I opened a can of worms I want to dive into!).

 

Just that a Hive Mind is an immaterial collection of consciousness. What's to say its machinations have only gone forward recently...

Edited November 1, 2016 by ckpmax1108

[simison]

Heh, funny, but that's a serious problem. We've established that the Tyranids are not to be a part of 30k under any circumstance. Even the genestealers, which were originally a standalone xeno species, are not sighted until 35K. That part has to go. :nuke:

[MikhalLeNoir]

Wasn't the hive mind in this case the combination of all of cains "marines" which he controls via the parasites which makes cain the mother brain or alien queen. It has nothing to do with tyranids just uses the same name. Maybe change it in order to avoid confusion.

[ckpmax1108]

Heh, funny, but that's a serious problem. We've established that the Tyranids are not to be a part of 30k under any circumstance. Even the genestealers, which were originally a standalone xeno species, are not sighted until 35K. That part has to go. http://image.bolterandchainsword.com//public/style_emoticons/default/nuke.gif

 

Touche...didn't read that fine print. Then a different form of budding Hive Mind system then?

Meaning it doesn't HAVE to be Tyranids, more of a small aggressively evolving parasite worm. It had time to develop with Cain, so the blueprint of such a system he could have easily established as him as the main conduit of thought, and his first born "sons" as the collective consciousness with him.

 

I'll avoid the "T" word then throughout this exercise.

[simison]

You see that's what I thought it was originally. A hyperadvance parasite that happened to be found on Cain's homeworld and got to him. That avoids the Tyranid problem. 

 

Unfortunately, that leaves us falling back on the previous problem. Cain is no psyker, so how can he hide 'his'/its hive mind from the Emperor, who's at least three power levels above Cain?

[MikhalLeNoir]

It could be that the bive mind produce a thought which suggests that all is good and cain is happy that big e is there.or simply: he can't read him. The hive mind closes the.corridor and thx to chemical shenanigan processes in his brain the emperor is not suspicious. Or he has a helmet similar to magnetos which he for any given reason never removes. And big e, the. NIce father he is, accepts it. I mean...he accepts.raktra. Edited November 1, 2016 by MikhalLeNoir

[simison]

A Primarch that isn't a Pariah is unreadable to the Emperor. I'm not sure how that in of itself isn't suspicious.

[MikhalLeNoir]

Doea the emperor read all primarchs? All the time? Shouldn't he been able to see the traitors in his ranks? Couldn't it be that he believes rhat his sons would never betray him and therefore.doesnt.read.them? And maybe he rhinks the warp jas changed him? Maybe he thinks there.is a another pariarch?

[ckpmax1108]

You see that's what I thought it was originally. A hyperadvance parasite that happened to be found on Cain's homeworld and got to him. That avoids the Tyranid problem. 

 

Unfortunately, that leaves us falling back on the previous problem. Cain is no psyker, so how can he hide 'his'/its hive mind from the Emperor, who's at least three power levels above Cain?

 

Looking back at my main thread..I never did say Tyranid at all. hmmm...perhaps I did think this through more than I thought.

 

For your latter inquiry, I'm calling forth the idea of first impressions. Knowing full well the base feral nature of Cain's upbringing in the planet, basis of how he looks and the ways he might have brought himself when thy first met. He might've put it off as something he could fix by raising him proper in Terra, and having Cain learn alongside his brothers.

 

The main flow of information by the parasite is what is immediately around him, feeding, learning, inquisition. All base human emotions, that naturally grow with us. So something as feral as that should not be something suspicious to Big E.

 

The parasite was suddenly confronted with this creature of higher Mental might, I would guess it just defaulted into not aggressively attacking the Emperor, and played it out to learn more about it.

 

..or maybe he did bite him to see how he would react?

 

Perhaps the plans grew with the knowledge he received from his brothers, and the schemes grew grander as he had more freedom and had less and less contact from the Emperor (?).

 

Although I call my doubts the the Emperor scans EVERYBODY on every single waking moment of his life.

Edited November 2, 2016 by ckpmax1108

[Sete]

Well Sebastos didn't turn to the Emperor and said I hate you dude. After all the is one of the most powerful beings in the galaxy.

I really want to go deep on this one.

So Sebastos was captive. After he crashed hebwas found by locals and given to the alpha psyker for a reward. He was a slave used for several purposes.In the grim dark of the far future we can assume it was not pleasant. Then the Emperor saved him. But traumatized of the abuse and knowing full well of what psykers are capable of he was suspecting the Emperor of ulterior motives.

And then he found out that he was indeed a tool of war, created in a lab, by someone "similar" to his old incarcerator. An abomination.

But he tried to give the Emperor a chance. He tried to serve, after all it was his"father". But doubts never went away and to be sure he visited the planet where he landed, to see if they were punished for his suffering.( Don't forget we are talking about a broken traumatised and abused being, with a different perception of events.) and they were living as if nothing ever happened. That tipped him over definitely, after all, if he was truly a son of the Emperor,then he would surely punish the vile and the wicked. So he bombed the planet to kingdom come, and started his search of hidden and forgotten lore to destroy psykers and protect himself from their powers. Then enter the insurrection.

[simison]

Every Primarch is at least checked by Chaos corruption, thanks to their kidnapping at their initial meeting. Canonverse has already established that the Emperor does test some of the Primarchs for this or that.

 

However, I think there's a solution to this mess. That is, don't have Cain become controlled by the parasite. Not at first anyway, have it that it's a slow-going affair. Perhaps have it infect him as an infant and then incubate for a couple of centuries, slowly digging its roots deeper in Cain while no one suspects anything. Then, when the Insurrection happens, and the galaxy is in chaos, have the parasite strike then. Have it begin fighting Cain for control of his body. Keep it subtle, perhaps the only thing Cain notices is that he starts having blackouts and has no idea why as he subconsciously tries to fight the parasite. 

 

This also highlights the difference between Terran and non-Terran marines. The latter will be infected thanks to directly using Cain's DNA, or have a chance of being infected. 

Sete, it's a little rough, but I think you have something workable there.

[Sete]

It's terribly rough xD. But I think I could (barely) convey my idea.

I got the stuff on my head. Putting it into them words is the challenge. (:

Theres an irony to this aswell. He convinces himself that his mind was not broken,h hence the name he choose for himself, only his body is ruined, but in fact he his a bloody mess all around. xD

Edited November 2, 2016 by Sete

[~Drakzilla~]

@ckpmax1108 & Simison: There is actually a precedence in the 40k universe for this sort of thing^ Halo devices (Look it up, very interesting: http://warhammer40k.wikia.com/wiki/Halo_Devices). They are essentially xenos artifacts/parasites that can do exactly what you have described. I had actually intended to incorporate that into a potential lost legion, but it fits perfectly for your idea.

[ckpmax1108]

Every Primarch is at least checked by Chaos corruption, thanks to their kidnapping at their initial meeting. Canonverse has already established that the Emperor does test some of the Primarchs for this or that.

 

However, I think there's a solution to this mess. That is, don't have Cain become controlled by the parasite. Not at first anyway, have it that it's a slow-going affair. Perhaps have it infect him as an infant and then incubate for a couple of centuries, slowly digging its roots deeper in Cain while no one suspects anything. Then, when the Insurrection happens, and the galaxy is in chaos, have the parasite strike then. Have it begin fighting Cain for control of his body. Keep it subtle, perhaps the only thing Cain notices is that he starts having blackouts and has no idea why as he subconsciously tries to fight the parasite. 

 

This also highlights the difference between Terran and non-Terran marines. The latter will be infected thanks to directly using Cain's DNA, or have a chance of being infected. 

 

 

I was looking at more as the "parasite's mental fortitude is stronger than a growing infant" point of view. Perhaps this is much better story-wise. Much better points of anguish upon leaning dark truths, or just a lot of inner struggle and hiding it, as fearing its chaos taint? maybe?

 

Honestly I love this better...a Primarch bent against his will into being a Traitor. While the rest of the Legion succumbs to this at an accelerated rate. 

 

I could rewrite him regardless as a Feral man-cub in an isolated planet. Erratic fits of consummation beyond his control.

 

Thanks Sim! 

 

 

@ckpmax1108 & Simison: There is actually a precedence in the 40k universe for this sort of thing^ Halo devices (Look it up, very interesting: http://warhammer40k.wikia.com/wiki/Halo_Devices). They are essentially xenos artifacts/parasites that can do exactly what you have described. I had actually intended to incorporate that into a potential lost legion, but it fits perfectly for your idea.

 

Never played Halo, but so much yes!

 

Edited November 2, 2016 by ckpmax1108

[simison]

And that's why they pay me the big bucks....if we had money.

 

Regardless, even if your legion concept doesn't win this Saturday, that's something you can take back to your lost legion idea. Or, if you're patient, it could become a Cohort idea down the road. 

 

Of course, now you might want to come up with a clear idea of what is Cain like when he is in control of himself.

[~Drakzilla~]

@cpkmax: Actually, no relation to Halo the game, they're from 40k lore.

[ckpmax1108]

And that's why they pay me the big bucks....if we had money.

 

Regardless, even if your legion concept doesn't win this Saturday, that's something you can take back to your lost legion idea. Or, if you're patient, it could become a Cohort idea down the road. 

 

Of course, now you might want to come up with a clear idea of what is Cain like when he is in control of himself.

 

That's actually fairly complex...hmmmm. Regardless, put me down as "having 2 sides of the same coin" trope for a Primarch. But my stance should still work as before...just no manipulative soul etching plans across the cosmos yet.

 

Think a reformed Tarzan situation...

 

But then again, you inadvertently doubled my work-load hahaha

 

Thanks regardless!

 

@cpkmax: Actually, no relation to Halo the game, they're from 40k lore.

 

Whoops! Still, a good read to develop from. Thanks for the heads-up!

Edited November 2, 2016 by ckpmax1108

[simison]

Let's throw another question out there since we've resolved the last one for both of you. Brothers. Hate them or love them, you're stuck with them. Just how well do your space marines get along with each other? Is there brotherly love and kinship like the Blood Angels, a practical professionalism such as the Iron Hands, a sometimes unhealthy sense of competition a la Iron Warriors, or outright backstabbery evoking the Night Lords?

Edited November 2, 2016 by simison

[ckpmax1108]

More of practical professionalism for Cain. His quiet demeanor and erratic behaviour compels quiet murmurs about the purity of his gene-seed.

 

But this does not affect the results he brings to the table. Terribly efficient and deadly to the enemies of man, but with almost a child-like innoccence even when drenched in gore.

 

A feral animal in an instictual level. Like a vicious dog, thats loyal to a fault.

 

Would want him to be close to only a few Primarchs though (still working on who).