Drop Site Massacre -with Different Loyal Legions

[Calas Typhon]

As pointed out by Iron Hands Fanatic, Ferrus was under the impression that there would be supporting Legions, which of course, is why he pushed in with the Iron Hands alone. 

 

The way I see it, the Iron Hands will be in every single first wave, as the Fulgrim encounter was pretty crucial to the Isstvan party. The Imperial Fists would always be on Terra, unless they would be replaced by the Iron Warriors to fortify the palace which would effect the second wave. The White Scars would always be around doing what they do far away, too far to be any help at this time. And its safe to say the Space Wolves are busy punching the filthy witch legion on the nose, although I cant remember the timeline exactly to know when Prospero happened.

 

So we have the Blood Angels, Dark Angels, Salamanders, Raven Guard, Iron Hands and the Ultramarines. 

 

As mentioned before, the Iron Hands would likely be in every single match up due to the Fulgrim event and conversion attempt by Horus, Ferrus would naturally take the Leadership role in every outcome, unless Dorn decided that Robute was a better choice in leader which is doubtful with Ferrus' previous leadership qualifications and seniority over his brothers. (this might be disputed on this thread) I would also say that, no matter what scenario we give, its highly unlikely that Ferrus would not push forward when the second wave arrives as I see it, so I am not going to factor that in. I will also keep it to three Legions for whatever reason.

 

The Iron Hands, Ultramarines, Dark Angels would be the most potent threesome, providing the Ultramarines put a full show of force on. Ultramarines and Dark Angels are pretty well rounded Legions and adapt pretty well. If any team is going to do it the best, I would say it is this one. Casualty rates would be a lot heavier for the traitor side with the large increase in Legionaries prior to the second wave dropping in and saying hello (or goodbye), The Ultramarines would more than likely secure what they have and wait for the second waves,  I would not doubt that Guilliman would put a substantial force to move in with Ferrus and the Iron Hands when he drives through. In this scenario, I don't see why the Lion in his headstrong nature (might be getting him wrong, as I don't really pay too much attention to the Dark Angels or the Lion) would not push in with that wave, providing Ultramarine Casualties are not amazingly large and there is not enough to secure the Landing zone for the second wave. This here gives a massive advantage to the Loyal Legions for it allows the application of pressure on the already bloody defending forces. This is not going to change the fact that the second wave is going to plow into the now securing Ultramarine force. Given the flexibility of the Legion in question however, it is entirely likely that the Ultramarines would not be hit as hard as the Salamanders and Raven Guard were, as the whole of both legions were pushed into the fight and were entirely depending on the supply from the second wave, where the Ultramarines have the numbers to secure and reinforce where needed. The Loyalists will not win, it would just end up a bloodier mess if the Legions were to stay and fight. So its entirely down to what the Lion does when Fulgrim kills Ferrus, because the Iron Hands wont be going anywhere. I am sure someone might be more knowledgeable on the Lion could fill in this gap on what he and the Dark Angels would do.

 

(The Iron Hands, Ultramarines and "x" Legion here) any other legion in the "x" Position would be the next best thing. Don't really want to spend all week typing this stuff out.

 

In any other scenario, without the Ultramarines as I see it, its going to be eventually the same exact event as we see in the Original fight. With the exception that Sanguinius is there and if his precognition is going to work, its entirely likely that the whole events on Isstvan could either happen vastly different, like deciding that its too much of a risk, if he knows the second wave is going to traitor before they deploy and just blowing the bloody planet up. Or saving Ferrus' life, and getting off the rock if the precognition triggers whilst on the planet.

 

 

Note: Sorry if parts don't make sense, I have just got home from work and I am essentially dead.

[Elzender]

Great post, Cthonia!

About the Lion, again I'm lagging regarding the novels, but in previous sources he had always been described as a master strategician when it came to battlefield plans, so while we could expect him to follow Ferrus due to his martial pride and desire to punish the traitors (considering he felt he should have been warmaster, he would probably be keen on capturing Horus himself), he'd probably plan ahead and have alternative in case a withdrawal from the frontline was necessary or adverse circumstances thwarted the first wave or its reinforcements.

[Wolf Lord Loki]

Given the size of the Ultras its possible they would be in both waves which might give the loyalists an excape route until the traitors broke the second wave ultramarine position

 

The white scars way of war wouldnt have meshed well with the direct assualt on the traitors they would have wanted to encircle and pick off the traitors which would have lead to them to potentially breaking out of the ambush site earlier than planned.

 

It would have made the battle more drawn out and costs but ultimately horus forces could have won the space war standing the loyalists on Istanvaan (and nuked/ exterminatus-ed the planet)

[Biscuittzz]

With regards escaping, I would say only the Raven Guard would be capable of breaking out of the encirclement and fighting clear. The Alpha Legion and White Scars would also maybe have a chance of breaking free as well. With the AL being a traitor legion, I'll disregard them. That leaves the White Scars, who would be able to break out with their fast hit and run style but I can't see them surviving in the shadows and hiding like the RG. The martial honour-bound culture of the Khan and the legion wouldn't allow it IMO.

 

I want to know peoples thoughts on whether the 3 Loyalist Legions may have known that the other 4 of the second wave were dodgy? Concerning the Raven Guard, did Corax not think it strange to be in the first wave?

 

The Salamanders and Iron Hands are both 'heavy hitting' legions in terms of infantry and armour usage, whereas the RG are not, relatively speaking. Surely in coming up with the attack strategy, the Night Lords or Iron Warriors would have been much better in the first wave in attacking a heavily entrenched foe?

[Supe robot gangster #1]

With regards escaping, I would say only the Raven Guard would be capable of breaking out of the encirclement and fighting clear. The Alpha Legion and White Scars would also maybe have a chance of breaking free as well. With the AL being a traitor legion, I'll disregard them. That leaves the White Scars, who would be able to break out with their fast hit and run style but I can't see them surviving in the shadows and hiding like the RG. The martial honour-bound culture of the Khan and the legion wouldn't allow it IMO.

 

I want to know peoples thoughts on whether the 3 Loyalist Legions may have known that the other 4 of the second wave were dodgy? Concerning the Raven Guard, did Corax not think it strange to be in the first wave?

 

The Salamanders and Iron Hands are both 'heavy hitting' legions in terms of infantry and armour usage, whereas the RG are not, relatively speaking. Surely in coming up with the attack strategy, the Night Lords or Iron Warriors would have been much better in the first wave in attacking a heavily entrenched foe?

All I'll say is. If any of the loyallist primarchs even had the slightest hint that they would be betrayed by the second wave they would literally be the most idiotic commanders ever. Perhaps maybe ferrus might not have changed his course of action if he knew, but vulkan and corax I'd hope would pull back and abandon the landing before it began.

[Kasper_Hawser]

With regards escaping, I would say only the Raven Guard would be capable of breaking out of the encirclement and fighting clear. The Alpha Legion and White Scars would also maybe have a chance of breaking free as well. With the AL being a traitor legion, I'll disregard them. That leaves the White Scars, who would be able to break out with their fast hit and run style but I can't see them surviving in the shadows and hiding like the RG. The martial honour-bound culture of the Khan and the legion wouldn't allow it IMO.

 

I want to know peoples thoughts on whether the 3 Loyalist Legions may have known that the other 4 of the second wave were dodgy? Concerning the Raven Guard, did Corax not think it strange to be in the first wave?

 

The Salamanders and Iron Hands are both 'heavy hitting' legions in terms of infantry and armour usage, whereas the RG are not, relatively speaking. Surely in coming up with the attack strategy, the Night Lords or Iron Warriors would have been much better in the first wave in attacking a heavily entrenched foe?

I think it's not just a matter of planning the betrayal of all 3 legions that put IH, Sal and RG together. The three had already a good history of working together in many crusade campaigns, and were in a sense a dream team, so probably made sense the three go first and bloody the first wave. The other legions like WB, NH, IW AL weren't known for working together, so might not have made sense to Ferrus to deploy them first.

 

Btw, somebody mentioned that Ferrus had previous experience commanding other Primarchs and their legions. Which story was this mentioned?

[Cryptix]

Here's a question - what if the Loyalists had treated Curse better and he never turned on Istvaan!

[Supe robot gangster #1]

Here's a question - what if the Loyalists had treated Curse better and he never turned on Istvaan!

With the way his legion operated I don't really think that would be a possibility ever!

[Dantay VI]

Both Vulkan and Corax wanted to wait for the other legions but Mannus charged straight in cos he wanted to Kill Fulgrim.

Vulkan & Corax urged caution on the ground which Mannus threw to the wind.

If that had changed and old headless had listened to his brothers the results could have been different or less punishing on the loyalists with more astartes in the void more could have escaped the traitors noose.

 

Beyond that the outcome was pretty much set as the deck was so firmly stacked in the traitors favour.

 

This was the loyalists Kobayashi Maru.

 

If Lion was there he would not turn traitor.

By Istvaan he had removed those who woild become the fallen.

 

Does Sanguinius precog only work for his immediate surroundings or can he properly see the future?

 

Curzwe path was pre determined by his fatalism locking him down his path along with his imperial tarot readings.

 

Guillemanns numbers would have caused the traitors issues however they would have been forewarned and planned accordingly.

Same for any other loyalist combo.

[Supe robot gangster #1]

Both Vulkan and Corax wanted to wait for the other legions but Mannus charged straight in cos he wanted to Kill Fulgrim.

Vulkan & Corax urged caution on the ground which Mannus threw to the wind.

If that had changed and old headless had listened to his brothers the results could have been different or less punishing on the loyalists with more astartes in the void more could have escaped the traitors noose.

 

Beyond that the outcome was pretty much set as the deck was so firmly stacked in the traitors favour.

 

This was the loyalists Kobayashi Maru.

 

If Lion was there he would not turn traitor.

By Istvaan he had removed those who woild become the fallen.

 

Does Sanguinius precog only work for his immediate surroundings or can he properly see the future?

 

Curzwe path was pre determined by his fatalism locking him down his path along with his imperial tarot readings.

 

Guillemanns numbers would have caused the traitors issues however they would have been forewarned and planned accordingly.

Same for any other loyalist combo.

I agree. Horus was no slouch when it comes to tactics and battle planning. The only thing in my mind that could change the outcome of the battle if there were different legions present is if sangunius' precog was wide spread enough to forewarn him, and of course if his brothers present even listen/believe/care about what he foresaw. Do we even know if the other primarchs were aware of his precog abilities? Surely at least some would?

[Biscuittzz]

 

With regards escaping, I would say only the Raven Guard would be capable of breaking out of the encirclement and fighting clear. The Alpha Legion and White Scars would also maybe have a chance of breaking free as well. With the AL being a traitor legion, I'll disregard them. That leaves the White Scars, who would be able to break out with their fast hit and run style but I can't see them surviving in the shadows and hiding like the RG. The martial honour-bound culture of the Khan and the legion wouldn't allow it IMO.

 

I want to know peoples thoughts on whether the 3 Loyalist Legions may have known that the other 4 of the second wave were dodgy? Concerning the Raven Guard, did Corax not think it strange to be in the first wave?

 

The Salamanders and Iron Hands are both 'heavy hitting' legions in terms of infantry and armour usage, whereas the RG are not, relatively speaking. Surely in coming up with the attack strategy, the Night Lords or Iron Warriors would have been much better in the first wave in attacking a heavily entrenched foe?

I think it's not just a matter of planning the betrayal of all 3 legions that put IH, Sal and RG together. The three had already a good history of working together in many crusade campaigns, and were in a sense a dream team, so probably made sense the three go first and bloody the first wave. The other legions like WB, NH, IW AL weren't known for working together, so might not have made sense to Ferrus to deploy them first.

 

Btw, somebody mentioned that Ferrus had previous experience commanding other Primarchs and their legions. Which story was this mentioned?

 

 

Is there anything in the books or fluff to say that they had worked together, and successfully at that? I would have thought that the Salamanders and Raven Guard's ethos of putting humanity first and helping the weak would be counter-intuitive to the Iron Hands philosophy. 

 

I still think a harder hitting legion warfare style such as the Iron Warriors would have served the first wave better. The RG reconnaissance and infiltration way of warfare was at odds with the situation faced, even the Decapitation method wouldn't have worked against an opponent that entrenched.

[okonomiyakimarine]

The only chance for a different outcome would have been Horus not being super smart and missing to send the Space Wolves to Prospero. He made sure that these two powerful (psyker) legions would take each other out of the game. 

[Supe robot gangster #1]

The only chance for a different outcome would have been Horus not being super smart and missing to send the Space Wolves to Prospero. He made sure that these two powerful (psyker) legions would take each other out of the game.

Not to mention ensuring the bulk of the blood angels and ultramarines being present in signus/Calth at roughly the same time

[Iron Hands Fanatic]

 

With regards escaping, I would say only the Raven Guard would be capable of breaking out of the encirclement and fighting clear. The Alpha Legion and White Scars would also maybe have a chance of breaking free as well. With the AL being a traitor legion, I'll disregard them. That leaves the White Scars, who would be able to break out with their fast hit and run style but I can't see them surviving in the shadows and hiding like the RG. The martial honour-bound culture of the Khan and the legion wouldn't allow it IMO.

 

I want to know peoples thoughts on whether the 3 Loyalist Legions may have known that the other 4 of the second wave were dodgy? Concerning the Raven Guard, did Corax not think it strange to be in the first wave?

 

The Salamanders and Iron Hands are both 'heavy hitting' legions in terms of infantry and armour usage, whereas the RG are not, relatively speaking. Surely in coming up with the attack strategy, the Night Lords or Iron Warriors would have been much better in the first wave in attacking a heavily entrenched foe?

I think it's not just a matter of planning the betrayal of all 3 legions that put IH, Sal and RG together. The three had already a good history of working together in many crusade campaigns, and were in a sense a dream team, so probably made sense the three go first and bloody the first wave. The other legions like WB, NH, IW AL weren't known for working together, so might not have made sense to Ferrus to deploy them first.

 

Btw, somebody mentioned that Ferrus had previous experience commanding other Primarchs and their legions. Which story was this mentioned?

 

 

It's in FW's Massacre, where it also explains that he was a candidate for Warmaster. In one of their other books, it also details three main Expeditionary Fleets in the early Great Crusade - one lead by the Emperor, one commanded by Horus and the third under Ferrus - maybe Tempest?

[Legatus]

It's in FW's Massacre, where it also explains that he was a candidate for Warmaster. In one of their other books, it also details three main Expeditionary Fleets in the early Great Crusade - one lead by the Emperor, one commanded by Horus and the third under Ferrus - maybe Tempest?

 

Yes, in 'Tempest', page 73, rightmost column. It is desribed that at a time the Emperor, Horus and Ferrus Manus were comanding the three main crusade fleets, while the XIIIth Legion was operating largely autonomously.

[Dantay VI]

At the end of the day, whomever was sent against Horus would have lost, it would just vary by how badly they would lose if you put other legions into the mix.

 

The only way the outcome would have been different would have either been

 

A: a legion or 2 appear out of nowhere and are not factored into Hors' plans.

B: The traitor legions, or at least some of them were double agents to stop the 3 legions meandering into the trap.

C: such overwhelming force was sent that the 4 (or 7) legions would have been hard pushed to get the victory.

 

Horus had 3 undetected traitor legions amongst the loyalists so he knew who and what was coming and when.

 

Wolves and Sons were out of the game, Khan was off gallivanting so was not aware until too late to affect things & was undecided until after what happened on Prospero with Mortarion and Magnus the friendly ghost later on in the Heresy

The Ultras were doing their thing in the Eastern fringes and Sanguinius was off on a wild goose chase around Signus. Dorn was on Terra, and was not about to give up building his sand-castles. As for the Lion, he was off prosecuting the great charade... I mean crusade.

 

Horus had played a blinder and unless something came completely unplanned for him there was no way he was going to lose at Istvaan. Even if you put any of the other loyalist legions in as replacements, they would still be handicapped in the same way.

[Kol Saresk]

If the ultras had the weight of the legion behind them, it potentially could have been way more damaging to the traitors due to the greater attrition that would've needed to happen.

Similarly though through technology rather than numbers the dark angels probably would have unleashed the dread wing from the off and blasted massive holes in everything.

Differences in numbers and technology would have been very minimal. The Word Bearers number at least as much as the Ultramarines according to Massacre, so if the whole XIII Legion was there, then Lorgar most likely would have surprised everyone by pulling out every single Marine he had at his disposal, maybe even one of the Abyss kingships.

 

As for technology, the Dark Angels hold some of the rarest and oldest technology, but the Salamanders and Iron Hands were both known for making technology, meaning that two of the three most technologically advanced Legions were already there.

[foamy248]

Some'un might've already pointed this out, but Guilliman isn't very flexible. I know... I know... "he reacted pretty fast at Calth lol amiright guys?" IIRC, it look him nearly an hour to react (in Know No Fear) to World Bearer assault. VERY tactically flexible, obviously. The Lion might've been good given his armys' access to all those nasty terran goodies (that would be good for slaughtering marines), and obviously the Dreadwing would excel in marine-vs-marine fighting. TBH, though, no legion (no matter how large or tactical smart) could prevent the massacre on its own.

[Legatus]

Some'un might've already pointed this out, but Guilliman isn't very flexible. I know... I know... "he reacted pretty fast at Calth lol amiright guys?" IIRC, it look him nearly an hour to react (in Know No Fear) to World Bearer assault. VERY tactically flexible, obviously.

Guilliman did not hesitate because he was not sure how to deal with the attack. He hesitated because he could not believe that it really was an attack, thinking that it must have been some terrible misfire accident or miscommunication that led the Word Bearers to open fire, that perhaps the Word bearers had interpreted the ship crashing "accident" as an attack and were somehow fighitng back (not knowing that they themselves had orchestrated that "accident"). He attempted to contact Lorgar and to find out what was happening. The Ultramarine forces themselves, though initially stunned by the attack, very quickly snapped into an automatic survive/rally mode, which eventually brought the Word Bearer's onslaught to a halt.

According to the description in 'Collected Visions' Guilliman had assessed the entire global situation on Calth "within minutes" of the initial attack, and had then begun to formulate and communicate a counter strategy to the pockets of resistance on the planet. The conflict was turned around within a day and the Word Bearers repelled.

'Tempest' even suggests that no other Legion than the Ultramarines could have managed to maintain cohesion and successfully come around and fight back against such a catastrophic first strike (a sentiment that I do not necessarily share, but that's what it says).

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

While improbable it's not absolutely impossible that the right three legions could have won out. I think BA, DA and SW would have fared the best.

[helterskelter]

 

If the ultras had the weight of the legion behind them, it potentially could have been way more damaging to the traitors due to the greater attrition that would've needed to happen.

Similarly though through technology rather than numbers the dark angels probably would have unleashed the dread wing from the off and blasted massive holes in everything.

As for technology, the Dark Angels hold some of the rarest and oldest technology, but the Salamanders and Iron Hands were both known for making technology, meaning that two of the three most technologically advanced Legions were already there.

Forgetting the Ultras for now, see as much as I dislike The DA I have to give credit where it's due, and before everyone decided killing other marines was a good idea, I believe that the DA are probably the best suited to doing it off the bat thanks to the dark tech of the dreadwing. OK they wouldn't have survived the massacre all that we'll, but I'm pretty certain at that grav and void and other insidious weaponry would have taken one of the other 7 down with them at the very least, a more interesting twist is if the lion set himself up against the sons and battered them that hard Horus' security as a leader would be in the balance.

[Cryptix]

Here's an idea.

Let's say in an alt-timeline, the DAs were at Istvaan in the place of Vulkan. The Lion leads the Dreadwing into the "castle" on a rampage when they hear of Ferrus' death and eventually end up with the Lion vs Horus. The Lion pulls a Sanguinus and dies, but not before mortally wounding Horus.

 

What would happen next?

[DarkApostle7]

I think a big factor is if the entirety of the legions are on Isstvan, this is something that confuses me with the original massacre. If the Word Bearers have roughly the same numbers as ultras at calth and they were entirely deployed on Issty then they would have made a MUCH bigger difference, like preventing a breakout force with thicker ranks.

 

For the original I think the traitors should have had a 'bigger' win as being about 200,000 strong and combatting the roughly 80,000 strong Sallies and RG in the rear wouldve made a huge difference.

 

For this theorised one, it wouldve got brutal if the full Ultras were on a massive open with the entire WB's, but since Al is about 130,000 according to wiki, IW about 150,000 and NL 90,000-120,000, the sheer numbers pressed against the loyalists, along with still aptly compotent commanders would mean that loyalists would still have no chance IMO

[helterskelter]

Well the alphas are everywhere generally, istvaan is one of those rare circumstances they are, in the novels, gathered in numbers.

I think the word bearers had split at this point as well, some were being sent to calths general direction before angron and lorgar went off?

IW are also garrisoned all over the shop too, so those 3 I don't think the full weight of the legions were there.

[Kol Saresk]

Well the alphas are everywhere generally, istvaan is one of those rare circumstances they are, in the novels, gathered in numbers.

I think the word bearers had split at this point as well, some were being sent to calths general direction before angron and lorgar went off?

IW are also garrisoned all over the shop too, so those 3 I don't think the full weight of the legions were there.

No, the split didn't occur until afterwards. Lorgar just kept a metric crap ton of his Legion in reserve somewhere, although Angron became aware of just how large the Legion had become during Armatura when the three kingships showed up. They only had 140,000 present at Istvaan V, and then roughly the same numbers at Armatura while Erebus and Kor Phaeron led 60,000 to Calth, which Argel Tal was supposed to originally be a part of until Lorgar changed his mind and instead used him to create second-generation Gal Vorbak to send off to Calth. So there is still at least another 100,000 who spread out across Ultramar so they could destroy roughly 100 worlds at around the same time(with regards to interstellar travel).

 

Oh, some of the 100,000 would be Sor Talgron's Chapter in the Purge, which was participating in one of the simultaneous attacks.