Drop Site Massacre -with Different Loyal Legions

[Memento Of Prospero]

No combination of any legions could have prevented the events from transpiring. The only effect it could have had, was to make Terra undefendable via lack of actual bodies...

 

The loyalist legions that were murdered at Isstvan were amongst the smallest - Most of the Iron Hands were not even there.

 

Think about that for a second. It was Horus's doom to not have tried to get bigger legions to commit there, he wastes his biggest advantage to cripple the smallest legions.

 

Had he caught the Ultras, Dark Angels of Fists, the campaign would have gone much smoother for him.

 

No one could have forseen the defection of the sleeper traitors except Sanguinius, and even then the visions are not the most reliable.

[Robzilla]

Mulch as I love the idea of glorious last stands and the like, I can't see it ending in any other way really. There may have been small successes, like the lion or the khan killing a traitor primarch or two, or even legions like the white scars breaking out and surviving, ala the raven guard. Chances are the white scars fleet may have survived more in tact than others too.

With that said, ultimately, the overwhelming majority of every legion deployed would have died, even with more numbers on their side, like the ultramarines

Heck, correct me if I'm wrong, but in one of the novels, don't the iron warriors drop a nuke on the salamanders in the basin?

There's no amount of tactical acumen the lion or guilliman could deploy, that could avoid a nuke in those close confines.

Simply put, the traitors would have adjusted their plans accordingly.

[Memento Of Prospero]

Mulch as I love the idea of glorious last stands and the like, I can't see it ending in any other way really. There may have been small successes, like the lion or the khan killing a traitor primarch or two, or even legions like the white scars breaking out and surviving, ala the raven guard. Chances are the white scars fleet may have survived more in tact than others too.

With that said, ultimately, the overwhelming majority of every legion deployed would have died, even with more numbers on their side, like the ultramarines

Heck, correct me if I'm wrong, but in one of the novels, don't the iron warriors drop a nuke on the salamanders in the basin?

There's no amount of tactical acumen the lion or guilliman could deploy, that could avoid a nuke in those close confines.

Simply put, the traitors would have adjusted their plans accordingly.

You need to gave another read of Scars, the whote scars fleet when have the hardest time breaking away when caught in orbit. Their ship modifications give them great speed once fully powered, but terrible bucking maneuverability to start.

 

The Khan couldn't kill Martarion, let alone do so quickly on the killing fields of Isstvan. I doubt the Lion could do any better.

[Kais Klip]

I wonder if the Iron Warriors would have inflicted a higher toll on the traitors than the Raven guard, or if they would have been BLAMed from the start via orbit. Makes you get that paranoia though, with 11 legions present maybe their drop pod FOB would have included an orbital laser or two.

 

It does kinda hit a certain inevitability home, the fact that Corax got cornered in the end. Maybe Angron had some flashbacks from that.

[Robzilla]

 

Mulch as I love the idea of glorious last stands and the like, I can't see it ending in any other way really. There may have been small successes, like the lion or the khan killing a traitor primarch or two, or even legions like the white scars breaking out and surviving, ala the raven guard. Chances are the white scars fleet may have survived more in tact than others too.

With that said, ultimately, the overwhelming majority of every legion deployed would have died, even with more numbers on their side, like the ultramarines

Heck, correct me if I'm wrong, but in one of the novels, don't the iron warriors drop a nuke on the salamanders in the basin?

There's no amount of tactical acumen the lion or guilliman could deploy, that could avoid a nuke in those close confines.

Simply put, the traitors would have adjusted their plans accordingly.

You need to gave another read of Scars, the whote scars fleet when have the hardest time breaking away when caught in orbit. Their ship modifications give them great speed once fully powered, but terrible bucking maneuverability to start.

 

The Khan couldn't kill Martarion, let alone do so quickly on the killing fields of Isstvan. I doubt the Lion could do any better.

True regarding the fleet, however once the breakthrough did occur (if it did) then they would have been relatively safe.

 

Counter point to that, is the fact that the traitors would have likely assessed that, and targeted white scars first, If able.

 

Regarding primarch fights, what makes you say that?

The khan by all accounts is a pretty vicious fighter. Saying he had a stalemate with mortarian is hardly fair, considering the latter's resilience.

 

Obviously there are some heavy hitters on the traitors side, such as horus and angron. However logar, alpharius, curze or even fulgrim could be considered reasonable targets. Not wanting to get into a 'who could take who in a fight', discussion here, but the four primarchs mentioned are reasonably fragile, so far as primarchs go. Combined with this, the khan is meant to be fearsome (claims to be able to wipe the floor with fulgrim) and the lion is quite fierce. Took out curze once after all, and curze is no slouch after all.

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

Like I said before anything is possible even if highly unlikely. It was all according to the well laid plans of the warmaster.

[Memento Of Prospero]

disregarding boasting or self praise, here's what we know from accounts:

 

Primarchs don't go down easy or fast, unless there's a very convenient plot twist. In Scars, the Khan was majestic and fearsome, but Mortarion pretty much held him to a bloody stalemate; and he's not exactly Fulgrim or Kruze Level in melee potency. The Lion got the drop pretty savagely on Kruze and still failed to kill him like twice? Or is it 3 times by now? I can't remember all the WWE boasting matches they are having at this point.

 

Isstvan was rather short order of business, and the only pushover primarch present was Lorgar (pre-ascendency) and we all know how that turned out. Alpharius was probably too busy trolling to engage or be engaged by anyone he didn't want to.

[helterskelter]

I wonder if the Iron Warriors would have inflicted a higher toll on the traitors than the Raven guard, or if they would have been BLAMed from the start via orbit. Makes you get that paranoia though, with 11 legions present maybe their drop pod FOB would have included an orbital laser or two.

 

It does kinda hit a certain inevitability home, the fact that Corax got cornered in the end. Maybe Angron had some flashbacks from that.

In the "if they didn't go traitor" category I'd bank on the iron warriors all day long. You seen perts flagship? No windows. He'd bomb the snot out of everything in the vicinity. Strategically could give Horus a bit of a run as istvaan is kind of a siege.

 

And while we're here can we lay this Curze spelling to rest? No other primarch gets this treatment, sure we give them all nicknames but Curze is Curze. Haven't seen it spelt any other way canonically in the 15 years I've been doing this hobby.

Else I'm gonna start spelling everyones name wrong :p

[Memento Of Prospero]

I have no clue why I mispel it half the time. Must be because he's the mental primarch ;)

[helterskelter]

I have no clue why I mispel it half the time. Must be because he's the mental primarch ;)

I blame ice cream eyes

[Kais Klip]

Given the Salamanders propensity for "asymmetrical warfare", which includes getting in close to use their numbers better against a numerically superior enemy, would it be unfair to say they tanked pretty badly on Isstvaan V? You'd expect them to par the Raven Guard's kill tally before kicking the bucket, albeit through a more fiery approach. 

 

Moreover, would our lord and master OP mind if we went over each of the legion's reactions to the betrayal, and their ensuing performance? 

 

Think it would be fair to say the Emperor's Children would tank pretty badly in any scenario where their plans go askew, a la murder, though on the other hand we have them holding the line pretty well on Isstvaan III, but that was more or less on equal footing conditions. 

 

The Ultramarines have been covered, but what of the Alpha Legion? They make an effort to "plan for every eventuality, dudebro", which would probably include a plan to kill their mothers, so it wouldn't be too far fetched for them to- oh wait, they'd probably know about the betrayal beforehand: 

 

 

 

Boom goes Horus' flagship. 

 

But maybe this whole little simulation is unfair; you'd expect the great Warmaster to adapt his plans accordingly to the legions, so mayhaps he'd have to work a little harder for some. The White Scars for instance, I doubt the Khan would have bent his knee to a frontal assault, rather being suspicious of any plan that didn't involve him in a purely post-battle running-down role. Which begs the question of why Corax agreed to straight up waltz with the traitors on the right flank. But maybe heresy begets swift execution.  

 

I'd agree that the Sons of Sanguinius would fare hilariously badly, along with the World Eaters, but the Space Wolves would have done well in my opinion, given their experience with Hnefetafl. That's what I don't get about the Wolf Cull, and the XXth beating them so badly; the whole game is based around either getting out of a hilariously "glorious" situation, or finishing the opponent off quick with numerical superiority. And here they are Hjoldaing themselves into oblivion over and over again. 

[Jarl Kjaran Coldheart]

I remember reading that Corax advised a more cautious approach to the initial loyalist attack, even waiting for the following 4 legions

 

Ferrus called that cowardly and ordered the full frontal attack

 

Some fool on Terra gave the angry guy with an axe to grind command of the loyalist attack...

[helterskelter]

Some fool on Terra gave the angry guy with an axe to grind command of the loyalist attack...

Some fool on terra thought that sending the dude that smashed his face in and killed his boys, with the "loyalists" was an idea

[Kais Klip]

Nothing out of the ordinary, Ferrus was always seen as the guy in charge in joint-operations until the Emperor left. But, yes, you have a point, though I'm sure many found his choler pretty reassuring in such a time of tumult.

 

Edit: as for smashy-face, I think Isstvaan V would have been a good opportunity for him to vent. 

 

I mean come on, who doesn't wanna see Curze go ape:cuss on some traitors. 

[bluntblade]

What bothers me most is that no one pointed out the glaring absence of Horus' fleet. Actually, that's where the Khan would come into his own.

 

"Ferrus, don't you know a zao when you see it? I taught Horus this tactic!"

 

disregarding boasting or self praise, here's what we know from accounts:

 

Primarchs don't go down easy or fast, unless there's a very convenient plot twist. In Scars, the Khan was majestic and fearsome, but Mortarion pretty much held him to a bloody stalemate; and he's not exactly Fulgrim or Kruze Level in melee potency. The Lion got the drop pretty savagely on Kruze and still failed to kill him like twice? Or is it 3 times by now? I can't remember all the WWE boasting matches they are having at this point.

 

Isstvan was rather short order of business, and the only pushover primarch present was Lorgar (pre-ascendency) and we all know how that turned out. Alpharius was probably too busy trolling to engage or be engaged by anyone he didn't want to.

Mortarion doesn't need to be the most masterful fighter when he can just take, take and take damage without keeling over.

[God-Potato of Mankind]

I think the only difference would have been if Ferrus was swapped out.

 

The lack of enemy fleets and any of the "dodgy" Legions - let's face it, nobody had a great opinion of the Word Bearers and Iron Warriors, let alone the Night Lords and Alpha Lehion - might have resulted an "ohhh nuuuu" moment if more suspicious (Lion, Khan or Russ) or rational (Guilliman, Corax or Vulkan) Primarchs had been there.

 

I mean, if you were fighting an unthinkable foe, more deadly than the last 200 years and you heard the support coming up vehind you, while you were fully committed, was Alpharius or Kurzes's lads?

[The_son_of_Dorn]

Well if Russ, sanguinius and ferrus has been in the fight I doubt they would of retreated to share glory. They would of been toe to toe with defenders before their "support" came to stick a chainsword in their backs. Sanguinius would of probably literally flew in to prevent fulgrim giving ferrus the chop at the last moment. Maybe it would of been enough to keep the primarchs all alive and allow a possibility for escape.

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

A major player like Sanguinius could have been pivotal.

[Robzilla]

What bothers me most is that no one pointed out the glaring absence of Horus' fleet. Actually, that's where the Khan would come into his own.

 

"Ferrus, don't you know a zao when you see it? I taught Horus this tactic!"

 

 

disregarding boasting or self praise, here's what we know from accounts:

 

Primarchs don't go down easy or fast, unless there's a very convenient plot twist. In Scars, the Khan was majestic and fearsome, but Mortarion pretty much held him to a bloody stalemate; and he's not exactly Fulgrim or Kruze Level in melee potency. The Lion got the drop pretty savagely on Kruze and still failed to kill him like twice? Or is it 3 times by now? I can't remember all the WWE boasting matches they are having at this point.

 

Isstvan was rather short order of business, and the only pushover primarch present was Lorgar (pre-ascendency) and we all know how that turned out. Alpharius was probably too busy trolling to engage or be engaged by anyone he didn't want to.

Mortarion doesn't need to be the most masterful fighter when he can just take, take and take damage without keeling over.

That's exactly my point regarding Mortarion.

 

With a bit of luck (positioning), and the right match ups, the best result the loyalists could have hoped for is a dead traitor primarch or two.

Had the loyalists had one of their more lethal fighters in the fray,(Corax is pretty brutal admittedly) and managed to get into some of the less tank-like of the traitors to face them, I don't see why they couldn't have scored a few kills.

 

Like I say, the lion and khan are the ones who spring to mind for potency, and for the traitors, alpharius, logar, curze, and fulgrim are the squishier of the targets.

 

I think it could have been possibly, but still ultimately a loss.

Heck, in some instances losing the primarch may have been a good thing for the legions (emperors children and night Lords for example).

[The_son_of_Dorn]

Night haunter is way OP a primarch even when Johnson bought him down.

 

Before this gets into another ufc primarch thread I will state that any primarch can beat any primarch given the scenario. I believe Alpharius could kill sanguinius as I also believe dorn could beat angron. But that also works vice versa.

 

What would of been interesting is if the Khârn, Roboute Guilliman and dorn had rocked up to that fight. I know the Ultramarines would of been outnumbered even given their legion size but can you imagine the options available with their legion strengths and fighting styles.

 

Ferrus really was the reason they suffered not only heavy but critical losses due to his desire to avenge his mistake in trusting his brother.

[Robzilla]

Night haunter is way OP a primarch even when Johnson bought him down.

 

Before this gets into another ufc primarch thread I will state that any primarch can beat any primarch given the scenario. I believe Alpharius could kill sanguinius as I also believe dorn could beat angron. But that also works vice versa.

 

 

Oh don't get me wrong, I know I have touted curze as one of the more likely to snuff it, but it's all relative.

 

As wolf_pack has pointed out, any primarch fight would have very limited time to take place during istvaan. It's not like they could duke it out for the best part of a day. The victim would have to be a little softer than the more tank like primarchs (mort, pert, and vulkan spring to mind) and the attacker suitably fast and or lethal (sanguinius, khan, lion, or corax, from the loyalists).

 

Even then it would like you say boil down to chance, as to how the combatants met, whether one side had suppose, or reinforcements at hand, etc.

 

Likewise, the same could be said of the traitors.

 

All I was saying in my original point, is that I don't think the ultimate outcome (crippling of three legions) could have been avoided. But, with the right combo of primarchs present, the loyalists could have taken out a couple of their traitor counterparts.

[The_son_of_Dorn]

With the original scenario of fulgrim vs ferrus, fulgrim got the edge with his deamon weapon so it seemed only fair to me that maybe Corax or vulkan or both even may of made it to his side and beat fulgrim into the dirt.

 

All three taking him on and the blade letting him put up a fight then the loyalists be like "we should withdraw, if this is the might fulgrim now musters imagine what angron nay even Horus might weild"

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

Sorry I don't see Alpharius ever beating Sanguinius.

[The_son_of_Dorn]

It could happen. maybe only 2/10 times but I like relative chance. 

[jokaero weaponsmith]

Ferrus really was the reason they suffered not only heavy but critical losses due to his desire to avenge his mistake in trusting his brother.

With no disrespect to my frater, I could not disagree with this statement more.

 

Advancing or retreating the loyalists were surrounded, with their means of escape compromised, both off world and out of the system.

 

All loyalist advancing or all loyalist withdrawing a consolidated force would have allowed the traitors to better focus their attack and wipe out the loyalist as they were so severely out numbered. I think that Ferrus's charge helped create some confusion amongst the traitors that allowed the few survivors their chance to make their escape.

 

As to changing up the legions present or loyal, I think it would have made little difference to the over all outcome of the battle as only three legions were loyal .

With the traitorous reserves knowing Ferrus's battle plan one would presume so too did Horus effectively giving the traitors precognition of the battle while all the loyalists were hoodwinked.

Given the effective precognition and superior numbers, the fact that there were any survivors, suggests to me that the loyalists were more than a match for the intial traitors and shows how poorly the trap was executed .

 

As for Ferrus's tactics if all the reserves were loyal I see little wrong with them.

 

An intial force creates a beach head, allowing for reinforcements to consolidate on or reinforce any weakness or to exploit any weakness or to open a whole other front.

As for Horus's fleet if they were to press the attack on the intial fleet they would soon be trapped between intial fleet and the reserves.

If Ferrus had just destroyed planet out right how would they know they got the Primarchs and they weren't just hiding waiting to strike .

 

 

The only real difference I could see to the overall outcome of the battle is what if Fulgrim had died at Ferrus's hands?