++ The Bringers of Despair - A Black Legion Community ++

[Sonoftherubric21]

So does anyone here have any plans to shift their build due to our new character?

 

Haarkan Worldclaimer looks awesome for sure, but what would it take for everyone here to do a 15+ or more Raptor-spam build? 

 

I already down 10 and once we see the rules I imagine there will be some heated discussions here regarding our new Lord! I hope he (and CA) makes raptors worth more then the "pop and drop" plasma/melta squads. I want them to be a solid table choice for melee and board control, Haarkan may be just that option to assist with that. 

[Panzer]

Well why would your list change all that much? A Lord with Jump Pack is worth it on its own already I'd say. Keep him with your main battleline and jump out when the time is right. Just because you can move fast doesn't mean you have to. ;)

[stonecrowe]

Really depends on what is in the inevitable Haarken + Raptor themed special detachment rules in Vigilus defiant tbh.

[Mekhitar]

Depends on his melee profile. If he’s just got the lightning claw and (effectively) a s+1 force sword, I would rather take my own jump lord - you know? Raptors just aren’t good in cc, even with a Dark Apostle buff.

 

Now, if he had a jump pack and gave *eveyone* the DA rerolls... that would be something.

[GreaterChickenofTzeentch]

Nice mate, they are all looking good - esp the real lord!

 

Thanks again. More when I have it.

[GreaterChickenofTzeentch]

Depends on his melee profile. If he’s just got the lightning claw and (effectively) a s+1 force sword, I would rather take my own jump lord - you know? Raptors just aren’t good in cc, even with a Dark Apostle buff.

 

Now, if he had a jump pack and gave *eveyone* the DA rerolls... that would be something.

 

Yeah, rerolls alone aren't enough to help Raptors. They need buffs to wound rolls and/or AP.

 

We've started to see some abilities that buff CC AP on the turn a character/unit charges. Maybe he can do a bubble of "AP improves by 1 on the charge" for Raptors.

[Sonoftherubric21]

Hold on for a second; the thing you throw raptors at is basic squads, chaff units, and horde units. Decent number of attacks, 2 per and 3 from unit leader usually. 

That + re rolls all attacks + say...a VOTLW + combine those 2 things with 2 negative LD effects. 

Not awful I don't think.  If raptors drop in cost (which I fully expect, 15 is my guess) I think that it would perform fine. Wouldn't be gang busters but would work fine. 

Edited December 4, 2018 by Sonoftherubric21

[GreaterChickenofTzeentch]

Hold on for a second; the thing you throw raptors at is basic squads, chaff units, and horde units. Decent number of attacks, 2 per and 3 from unit leader usually. 

 

That + re rolls all attacks + say...a VOTLW + combine those 2 things with 2 negative LD effects. 

 

Not awful I don't think.  If raptors drop in cost (which I fully expect, 15 is my guess) I think that it would perform fine. Wouldn't be gang busters but would work fine. 

True. And I just read the Warhammer Community article, so I see where people got the rerolls from.....his actual stats.

 

Herald of the Apocalypse + Fearsome Visage could indeed be nasty combined with Vets, the rerolls, and an Icon of Despair....or Fury of Khorne.....

 

And Anti-Horde CC is going to need to be a thing now that Orks have truly arrived and Genestealer Cult is next.

 

Like you, I'm hoping for a point drop on Raptors. If that happens, it might be worth using them in CC.

Edited December 4, 2018 by GreaterChickenofTzeentch

[techsoldaten]

Well, I have 25 Raptor models sitting around from previous editions. Would love to have a use for them.

 

The thing that concerns me about Haarken is the rules on deep strike. I'd be strongly tempted to have a Raptor detachment arrive second turn along with something like Obliterators. That makes me wonder what would be good to have on the table first turn, feels like there's a big opportunity to split your forces.

[Sonoftherubric21]

Well, I have 25 Raptor models sitting around from previous editions. Would love to have a use for them.

 

The thing that concerns me about Haarken is the rules on deep strike. I'd be strongly tempted to have a Raptor detachment arrive second turn along with something like Obliterators. That makes me wonder what would be good to have on the table first turn, feels like there's a big opportunity to split your forces.

 

couple blobs of cultists, couple of tanks?

 

I was thinking 20 some odd raptors, a couple of marine units in rhinos (melee, with accompanying exalted champion / lord) 

some tanks for dedicated AT firepower, Preds with pred/las/las or Quad-Las lad out. 

 

Then drop the raptors and haarkan and go to town on all the weaker units you can get your grubby claws into. Khorne marked raptors for re-roll failed charges and the fury of khorne bonus, some decent Ld negative (-2 usually). 

 

Id give squad leaders duel lightning claws and let em grind weaker units or low / mid LD units. possibly bully-unit applications. 

[GreaterChickenofTzeentch]

 

Well, I have 25 Raptor models sitting around from previous editions. Would love to have a use for them.

 

The thing that concerns me about Haarken is the rules on deep strike. I'd be strongly tempted to have a Raptor detachment arrive second turn along with something like Obliterators. That makes me wonder what would be good to have on the table first turn, feels like there's a big opportunity to split your forces.

 

couple blobs of cultists, couple of tanks?

 

I was thinking 20 some odd raptors, a couple of marine units in rhinos (melee, with accompanying exalted champion / lord) 

some tanks for dedicated AT firepower, Preds with pred/las/las or Quad-Las lad out. 

 

Then drop the raptors and haarkan and go to town on all the weaker units you can get your grubby claws into. Khorne marked raptors for re-roll failed charges and the fury of khorne bonus, some decent Ld negative (-2 usually). 

 

Id give squad leaders duel lightning claws and let em grind weaker units or low / mid LD units. possibly bully-unit applications. 

 

I'd personally use one squad of 15 to maximize buffs if you're going that way, with another squad of 5 loaded down with Plasma, since this is Black Legion and they'll be able to advance while firing. Those 5 could even start on the table behind  a building instead of "drop and pop." 

 

With one big unit, you might also be able to rely on Warp Time to get the 15 Raptors into position instead of dropping them. 

 

I'd throw in a unit of 9 plasma bikes for the same heavy use of the Legion Trait and tons of combi-bolters to mulch hordes and force morale checks within that 18 bubble. This would complete an Outrider with Haarkan leading it.

 

AT firepower could come from a mix of Helbrutes, Oblits, and Slaanesh Havocs, with backup from one CSM squad with dual missile launchers and then a Cultist screen.

 

Somewhere you work in Abby, a Terminator Sorcerer with a combi-bolter, and a Daemon Prince. You might end up with a Battalion and a Spearhead, perhaps.

 

Then you have access to Fire Frenzy, Flak Missile, Daemon Shell, Warp Time, Death Hex, Fury of Khorne, and Endless Cacophony. You could make the bikes and Daemon Prince Nurgle if you wanted and give the bikes the Icon of Despair plus have the Prince use Miasma of Pestilence to shield them. Maybe IoD on the small Raptor Squad too, since they can just park close to an enemy and still have it go off when they blast them....or contribute to the weight of someone else's charge.

 

Sort of a compromise between Techsoldaten's standard play style and your desire to smash things with Raptors. I have no idea if it would be good, but it's interesting on paper.

Edited December 4, 2018 by GreaterChickenofTzeentch

[Sonoftherubric21]

 

I'd personally use one squad of 15 to maximize buffs if you're going that way, with another squad of 5 loaded down with Plasma, since this is Black Legion and they'll be able to advance while firing. Those 5 could even start on the table behind  a building instead of "drop and pop." 

 

 

With one big unit, you might also be able to rely on Warp Time to get the 15 Raptors into position instead of dropping them. 

 

I'd throw in a unit of 9 plasma bikes for the same heavy use of the Legion Trait and tons of combi-bolters to mulch hordes and force morale checks within that 18 bubble. This would complete an Outrider with Haarkan leading it.

 

AT firepower could come from a mix of Helbrutes, Oblits, and Slaanesh Havocs, with backup from one CSM squad with dual missile launchers and then a Cultist screen.

 

Somewhere you work in Abby, a Terminator Sorcerer with a combi-bolter, and a Daemon Prince. You might end up with a Battalion and a Spearhead, perhaps.

 

 

Sort of a compromise between Techsoldaten's standard play style and your desire to smash things with Raptors. I have no idea if it would be good, but it's interesting on paper.

 

 

That was a thought I had as well. 

 

Core of the list is Haarkan + 20 raptors, unit of 5 pop/drop, and a unit of 15 ready for bear flying across the table, some warp-time support with an Icon and Khorne mark for an all but guaranteed engagement turn two.  Miasma is also a possibility if were concerned with target priority but need to lose mark of Khorne which is important for them. 

 

Lets assume for sake of argument that raptors will NOT be 17 ppm as they are currently when the dust settles from CA in 2 weeks, if so and we are looking at (what we can reasonably assume) are 15 point raptors, with Haarkan being a (assumed) 120 points. Including 3 plasma pistols, and 2 plasma guns divided among the 20 that puts the entire unit with Haarkan at 482 (plasma guns, icon, haarkan, lightning claw squad leader on 15 man unit).  Just under a 4th of a 2k list.  

 

I don't think this would be "competitive" necessarily but it sure as hell wouldn't be trash either. Plenty of points left for filling out the big nasty options. My current black legion list runs the Killshot strat with 3 preds so AT would be covered with that and that barely comes out to over 1k, plenty of points left to play with. Options!!! 

Edited December 4, 2018 by Sonoftherubric21

[GreaterChickenofTzeentch]

 

 

I don't think this would be "competitive" necessarily but it sure as hell wouldn't be trash either. Plenty of points left for filling out the big nasty options. My current black legion list runs the Killshot strat with 3 preds so AT would be covered with that and that barely comes out to over 1k, plenty of points left to play with. Options!!! 

 

Agreed. I'd personally make sure to find some room for bikes to shred huge hordes (Nurgle for durability or Slaanesh if you want to fire 72 shots), or maybe a big unit of Noise Marines.

[Sonoftherubric21]

 

 

 

I don't think this would be "competitive" necessarily but it sure as hell wouldn't be trash either. Plenty of points left for filling out the big nasty options. My current black legion list runs the Killshot strat with 3 preds so AT would be covered with that and that barely comes out to over 1k, plenty of points left to play with. Options!!! 

 

Agreed. I'd personally make sure to find some room for bikes to shred huge hordes (Nurgle for durability or Slaanesh if you want to fire 72 shots), or maybe a big unit of Noise Marines.

 

 

I do in fact run 10 noise marines..... So that would probably be a great idea. Vets during shooting + Galaxy burn + endless cacophony grinds up units pretty good. If you want to blow 4 points on making someone hate you 

[Bloody Legionnaire]

So does anyone here have any plans to shift their build due to our new character?

 

Haarkan Worldclaimer looks awesome for sure, but what would it take for everyone here to do a 15+ or more Raptor-spam build? 

 

I already down 10 and once we see the rules I imagine there will be some heated discussions here regarding our new Lord! I hope he (and CA) makes raptors worth more then the "pop and drop" plasma/melta squads. I want them to be a solid table choice for melee and board control, Haarkan may be just that option to assist with that. 

 

Shifting builds..? No. But I am now starting a new 40k Army I was completely not planning on starting because of it 

 

I had some Raptor/Talon models that weren't making any sense in my World Eaters or Word Bearer lists so I'll be using them a long with Haarkan once he's released as a start to my Black Legion. 

 

This is like the 3rd unplanned army I'm now on, I think I have a problem...

[GreaterChickenofTzeentch]

 

 

I do in fact run 10 noise marines..... So that would probably be a great idea. Vets during shooting + Galaxy burn + endless cacophony grinds up units pretty good. If you want to blow 4 points on making someone hate you

Why stop at 10? Use 20, Advance, use Warp Time to double that, enhance with a nearby Winged Daemon Prince, Prescience, and Delightful Agonies to offset disadvantages, then open fire with Vets.

 

As soon as your opponent is done grumbling and removing models, respond with

 

"THIS QUIET OFFENDS SLAANESH!!"

 

Then burn for Endless Cacophony.

 

Make it a point to kill squishy units behind the immediate front line, so that his front liners get a chance to sign their own death warrant by charging/shooting at close range to trigger Music of the Apocalypse and invite a Daemon Prince countercharge.

 

Then the Raptors come for them. :)

 

It's a radically different style, but could be fun.

[Sonoftherubric21]

 

So does anyone here have any plans to shift their build due to our new character?

 

Haarkan Worldclaimer looks awesome for sure, but what would it take for everyone here to do a 15+ or more Raptor-spam build? 

 

I already down 10 and once we see the rules I imagine there will be some heated discussions here regarding our new Lord! I hope he (and CA) makes raptors worth more then the "pop and drop" plasma/melta squads. I want them to be a solid table choice for melee and board control, Haarkan may be just that option to assist with that. 

 

Shifting builds..? No. But I am now starting a new 40k Army I was completely not planning on starting because of it 

 

I had some Raptor/Talon models that weren't making any sense in my World Eaters or Word Bearer lists so I'll be using them a long with Haarkan once he's released as a start to my Black Legion. 

 

This is like the 3rd unplanned army I'm now on, I think I have a problem...

 

 

I feel you on that, I had to curb it at 4..... stopped hard at that many as I didn't want it to get out of hand. 

 

That being said I am glad to add something new!  Haarkan gives me the excuse to shift my build for my black legion from a rhino-rush + lots of marines with special weapons design + tank support, into a raptor heavy list. 

Edited December 5, 2018 by Sonoftherubric21

[Prot]

I'm guessing the new guy is about 140ish? So hard to say with drops coming.

 

Since he works with any legion he could be very interesting to worth with Renegades (Corsairs, etc) Raptors.

 

I'm looking for a way to include him in a Black Legion army tonight. I have about 8 Raptors and see using a Fist and a few specials in the squad. (still worried about super heavies).

[Sonoftherubric21]

I'm guessing the new guy is about 140ish? So hard to say with drops coming.

 

Since he works with any legion he could be very interesting to worth with Renegades (Corsairs, etc) Raptors.

 

I'm looking for a way to include him in a Black Legion army tonight. I have about 8 Raptors and see using a Fist and a few specials in the squad. (still worried about super heavies).

 

AFAIK someone who has the book said he is "cheaper then a battlewagon" which currently is 120. So he is less then 120. (115 or 110) 

 

Assuming that Price point is true I can see themeing a list around it as a core. (that and a CA point drop for raptors which is surely coming) 

[Sonoftherubric21]

Update for Haarken: So we now have seen the full stat line and point cost for Haarken in the reviews for Vigilus Defiant.  Basically, in the fluff he is a Raptor Dark Apostle, possibly nostraman born. I quite like what I have read from his fluff page.

Unpopular opinion: I think for his points cost he is *almost* great.  Overall solid on the table considering his cost, combined with the recent drop in points for Raptors to a fairly reasonable level. 

 

A chaos lord after chapter approved with a jump pack, a plasma pistol, and a SINGLE lightning claw is 106. In fact, if you were able to give a Lord duel Light Claws + a plasma pistol they would come up to 110. 

 

By comparison, Haarken is 115. I think for his cost that he is a quite solid choice.  You lose the RR1's aura, but the spears ranged attack (which is roughly equivalent to a plasma pistol but with no risk), and his 5 base attacks (the same amount you would get from a lord with duel light claws anyway), his -1 Ld aura when applicable is neat, and his Dark Apostle aura for raptors certainly looks great on paper. He also has the ability to deep strike with his raptors.  His warlord trait is the "terror" trait from the CSM Dex that forces the opponent to roll 2 dice and pick highest.  (neat when applicable but an afterthought for sure) As well as nailing weaker characters for that +1 attack against some lists potentially) 

 

His aura combined with the fact that it works on ANY raptors (not just black legion) is a major point to keep in mind though I would primarily stick with BL for him due to fluff reasons. I can see some definite uses on the table for Khorne marked Raptors in a World Eaters contingent. So if you are getting him what is everyone thinking?  

I particularly like him because of his relatively cheap cost, combined with utility as long as you build a squad or 2 with him in mind he is essentially a flying apostle, given that our bloody apostles can't take jump packs   I say that Haarken is very good for his points cost and his stats. Also: he has the Raptor keyword if and when that matters. 

Added bonus: For what it is worth he does, in fact, have the "Raptor" keyword explicitly.  Anything that benefits raptors in the future will also benefit him. Vigilus 2 here we come! 

Edited December 9, 2018 by Sonoftherubric21

[Midnightmare]

I really don’t like his weapon combo - it looks unbalanced in my view. If what you are saying is true though that he has the same amount of attacks as a twin claw Lord, and the spear is very similar to a plasma pistol, then I am thinking I may swap it out for a second claw with a built in plasma pistol.

 

It’s a moot point atm as I have no raptors for him to lead, but it’s an idea floating around in ma heed :D

[Sonoftherubric21]

I really don’t like his weapon combo - it looks unbalanced in my view. If what you are saying is true though that he has the same amount of attacks as a twin claw Lord, and the spear is very similar to a plasma pistol, then I am thinking I may swap it out for a second claw with a built in plasma pistol.

 

It’s a moot point atm as I have no raptors for him to lead, but it’s an idea floating around in ma heed

 

Its an assault 1, 12 inch range, Str +1, Ap-3, D3 damage shot. 

 

Its not quite a pistol, but pretty close and no risk at firing it. FWIW. 

 

He does have the same number of attacks as a lord with duel light claws (5, compared to the base chaos lords normal 4 swings). So that conversion idea could definitely work and after looking at his sprue it looks easy and ripe for conversion considering his spear arm is separate pieces. 

[Midnightmare]

Tbh it looks quite easy to magnetise at the elbow, so the best of both worlds can be had :tu:

 

RE the head, there looks to be a spare fully helmeted version at the bottom left of the sprue too (unless it is in two halves -

http://i.imgur.com/N02FMfA.jpg

 

Either way, those rules look good for a Raptor heavy army (esp at lower points) and his model is pretty cool too, so overall win for the Black Legion B)

Edited December 9, 2018 by Midnight Runner

[Panzer]

Pretty sure it's just two halves since normally heads all face the same direction on sprues.

[Closet Skeleton]

The spare head is for the dead Intercessor on the base.

 

I want to try a Black Legion brigade out again since my last list is now much more viable in 2k but don't see myself getting much opportunity before I get distracted by Genestealer Cults.