++ The Bringers of Despair - A Black Legion Community ++

[Khornestar]

Guys... I'm trying to figure out what the angle is on this Black Legion in the book.

 

I've loved playing Abaddon and loved Termies. The idea of him coming in first turn with ObSec termies sounds good, but it's only a start. What do you do with this Detachment?

 

I don't mean to sound facetious I'm trying to figure it out because right now I feel like my World Eaters might feel a little like KDK lite. And that's not a knock against the World Eaters, but I look at this as opportunity to try something else.

 

I know the Cabal is solid choice. I've used it with KDK and with Traitor's Hate in my Khorne army! (So basically same thing. lol)

 

But I'm stumped on the Detachment. Also another question... the Warband. I do own the digital copy of the BL supplement, but I don't have my ipad with me... but is that ObSec too?

 

Unless I'm mistaken, I think only the entry in Traitor's Hate for the Warband has ObSec.

[Prot]

... are you saying the Black Legion don't have access to an ObSec Core choice in the detachment? Or am I misunderstanding something?

 

(Note: there is a page reference (P.63) for the BL Warband in Traitor Legions. Perhaps they changed it there?

Edited December 8, 2016 by Prot

[dakkamasta]

This is exactly what I am concerned about for the book. If ObSec isn't added to the black legion warband or at the very least we can take the original warband with ObSec as a core choice I'm going to be very dissapointed as it makes the Black Legion detachment completely pointless. No one cares about fear and crusader so really we are taking it for the 1st turn deep strike + guaranteed with abaddon and his boys. However if that means taking a hefty costing black legion warband formation as a core which has no ObSec anywhere, then we are better off taking a Black Crusade detachment which means no first turn deep strike thus making our detachment redundant. It also means that the Black Legion is the only legion without any access to ObSec in its detachment which makes no sense fluffwise (how are insane World Eaters or depraved Emperor's Children better at holding objectives than the legion that orchestrates the black crusades?).

 

I really hope we get ObSec. Mainly because when I first read the rules leaks I was overwhelmed with excitement as it meant there was finally a semi cost efficient way to run Abbadon against any army (not just space marines) where he can feel like the beast that he is, without hindering the effectiveness of the rest of the army. However without obsec I just can't justify taking 700-1000 points of a black legion warband that is not very effective at killing nor is it effective at holding objectives just so that Abaddon can come out to play.

[Excessus]

What's the benefit of taking the BL decurion then, is it THAT important? You could always take a regular warband with the BL legion rules.

 

 

...and add an Alpha legion HQ to abbys unit for a hilarious 3d6 move per turn.

Edited December 8, 2016 by Excessus

[Prot]

What's the benefit of taking the BL decurion then, is it THAT important? You could always take a regular warband with the BL legion rules.

 

 

...and add an Alpha legion HQ to abbys unit for a hilarious 3d6 move per turn.

 

Well for me the attraction is Abe in a blob of Obsec Termies. It really has an advantage in the Black Legion Speartip because you get to roll T1 for any reserves, and if your Warlord is Deep Striking then you can choose to have them come in automatically T1. That's pretty big.  Not having ObSec is a bigger issue though. Very strange.

 

Strange overall as it seems most of what's there for auxiliaries is from that supplement.

[dakkamasta]

Exactly what Prot said. Dropping down Abaddon and terminators with ObSec on the 1st turn guaranteed is massive especially when the rest of your warband is also ObSec. Without it you're left with a warband that can be ignored for a large portion of the game due to consisting of units that arn't very threatening and the opponent can simply focus down on abaddon and his retinue.

 

Think of it this way, a min squad of chaos space marines in a rhino with a special weapon isn't scary in the slightest. But when they're advancing and have ObSec they now need to be dealt with before they get into a strong position, paired with a nasty character like abbadon with terminators who are also ObSec and you have a force that puts lots of pressure on the enemy at the very beginning of the game.

[Dallas Drake]

Exactly what Prot said. Dropping down Abaddon and terminators with ObSec on the 1st turn guaranteed is massive especially when the rest of your warband is also ObSec. Without it you're left with a warband that can be ignored for a large portion of the game due to consisting of units that arn't very threatening and the opponent can simply focus down on abaddon and his retinue.

 

Think of it this way, a min squad of chaos space marines in a rhino with a special weapon isn't scary in the slightest. But when they're advancing and have ObSec they now need to be dealt with before they get into a strong position, paired with a nasty character like abbadon with terminators who are also ObSec and you have a force that puts lots of pressure on the enemy at the very beginning of the game.

 

Exactly. I was thinking of running the folowing in a Speartip.

 

3-5 Terminators w MoT + combi-plasmas & axes/maces

Lord with Terminator Armour, MoT, Fist/Claw OR Abaddon (points depending)

2-3 L3 Cabal Sorcerers in Terminator armour with combi-meltas & force axes - rolling on Sinistrum.

 

Drops in turn 1. Cast Warp Fate/Diabolic Strength/Death Hex. Unload plasama and next turn charge.

Edited December 8, 2016 by Dallas Drake

[Excessus]

Remember that the BL warband has some rules regarding shooting too, so those termies has the possibility to be very accurate. ;)

[Midnightmare]

Remember that the BL warband has some rules regarding shooting too, so those termies has the possibility to be very accurate. ;)

If the Warband kills a unit, the rest of the Warband get preffered enemy in that phase, I think?

[Excessus]

That includes rhinos though, pew pew pew. :)

[Prot]

Okay I'm obviously going to have to go through my iPad when I get home... Because I'm trying to remember... ah let me just do some copy paste here:

 

Core:

BL Warband (apparently not ObSec? I would like verification from P.63 of the Traitor Legion book to be sure they didn't change it.)

I think losing ObSec for the 'slay a unit for a turn of preferred enemy' is not something that feels right to me. This is the Black Legion, laying the ground work for the Crusade(s). It seems almost automatic they would be very good at securing objectives. )

 

Hounds of Abaddon (this is bigger than I remembered: 1 Lord +1-3 of 'Zerkers, CSM, and Raptors/Talons,Bikers.) Basically free MoK, and a turn of Run and charge, and a 'chance' at Furious Charge like effects.

 

This is probably going to be very difficult for me.

 

Auxiliaries:

Bringers of Despair ...that 'feels' like a crucial piece of Black Legion to me. Almost like Plague marines are to DG, I feel BoD is to Black Legion. That's a nice touch but would rather have ObSec termies for Abe alone.

 

Cyclopia is gold. I even think it works better with ObSec Termies. I realize the bike option for Cyclopia is very good, but for making "Super Abe" this is a great Aux carry over.

 

Chosen of Abaddon: I probably would have thought this very important in the identity of BL as a detachment, however it really needs better rules. (There's only so many Terminators you use. Speaking of....)

 

Terminator Annihilation Pack: We know this one from Traitor's Hate.

 

Daemon Engine Pack. I actually find this fun... and unique enough from the Traitor's Hate variant.

 

The rest are pretty standard across the Legions I think.

 

Darn, I was thinking Termie Annihilation force might fit with Abe but it's pretty heavy.

[Orthon]

Black Legion Warband is pretty much worse than normal Chaos Warband unfortunately.  Everything in here is pretty much dead weight with no ObSec.

Hounds of Abbadon is pretty much worse than what World Eaters can do, but probably still better than Black Legion Warband because it is cheaper.

Both of these cores are really bad.  Normal CSMs in non-ObSec rhinos?  Pass.

 

The Black Legion Speartip benefits are not great.  Fear and Crusader are terrible.  Deep strike turn 1 with no scatter mitigation is not that great.

The only way to play this is with a risky turn 1 Raptor Talon assault.  I have played deep striking terminator armies that are better such as Deathwing and they get savaged and they have deep strike mitigation and fearless.  Space Marines have drop pods and are ObSec and do this better too. 

 

Turn 1 deep strikes have to be done in mass or not at all.  You are putting only a fraction of your army up against the potential entirety of the opponent's army.  With no scatter mitigation, this is a really foolish thing to do.  It is not reliable.  It is all luck. 

 

I think normal Chaos Warband can still be taken with Traitor's Hate book and you actually get to roll each turn on the boon table, but half the things on the table are not that great.  Both WE and DG do a much better Chaos Warband so you are better off calling your black marines counts as DG.  Gladius or Lion’s Blade marines still do this better than WE or DG with free transports and grav cannons.

 

I think CAD is still the best bet with ObSec Terminators and Chosen.  However, we can't take unique characters other than Abbadon so no Bel'akor.  Is free VOTL and ObSec Terminators and Chosen worth the restrictions on characters?  Probably not.  So we are back to where we started and gained nothing. 

 

Competitive Black Legion will still be min cultist troops and Cabal star and or multiple flying Daemon Princes including Bel’akor.  These new books don’t really change that sadly.

Edited December 8, 2016 by Orthon

[durdle-durdle]

Even in cads i usually bring a lord, a biker squad, a termie squad, and 2 marine squads. Also worth note the bl warband allows you to use chosen instead of normal marines. While i know the interbet says "chosen = bad", it does allow you to take 2 5 man squads of 2 special weapons(or more should you want it). I personally like running 2 plasma guns in a rhino and using them as small dakka boxes. Just my thought.

[Carrack]

I vote for Bringers of Despair as a community name.

 

Hobby wise, I'm slowly painting a maulerfiend. Slowly, like last night all I got done was the hinges and chrome for the cables on the back of two tentacles. At this rate the maulerfiend may be ready for Terra, maybe not.

[Orthon]

Chosen with 5 plasma guns lol?  

 

This is going to be my fluff army because it looks cool.  

 

Black Legion have greater mark flexibility compared to other legions.  Other legions can't take marks or are forced to take just one kind.

 

This could be taken advantage in a CAD:

 

Lord, Mark of Khorne

Lord, Mark of Nurgle/Slanesh

 

Cultist

CSM

Terminators

Chosen

Beserkers

Plague Marine/Noise Marines

 

Each squad different and taken as troops.  Taste the Rainbow.  

May not be good, but could be fun.

[Midnightmare]

I vote for Bringers of Despair as a community name.

 

I like that - Plenty Black Legion-y enough :D

 

I feel you on the slow painting, Call of Chaos ends next week and my actual Bringers of Despair are painfully close to being finished, but not quite there yet. Here is hoping I can get a bit of painting time.

 

I have the last round of our club campaign this Monday, what are the chances of my book arriving in time? If not Black Crusade Warband it is for me, likely a small CAD for a Sicaran as well :) I like the idea of Plasma Chosen, just soooo pricey.

Edited December 8, 2016 by Midnight Runner

[Iron-Daemon Forge]

I vote for Bringers of Despair as a community name.

 

Hobby wise, I'm slowly painting a maulerfiend. Slowly, like last night all I got done was the hinges and chrome for the cables on the back of two tentacles. At this rate the maulerfiend may be ready for Terra, maybe not.

 

Can't believe I forgot about this.  If no one mind I will use this to re-name the topic.

 

Are you going for the formation with the Fiends & Warpsmith?  Or just general use in games/just for the model?

[Excessus]

Yeah, Bringers of Despair is a catchy name :)

[Carrack]

 

 

I vote for Bringers of Despair as a community name.

 

Hobby wise, I'm slowly painting a maulerfiend. Slowly, like last night all I got done was the hinges and chrome for the cables on the back of two tentacles. At this rate the maulerfiend may be ready for Terra, maybe not.

Can't believe I forgot about this. If no one mind I will use this to re-name the topic.

 

Are you going for the formation with the Fiends & Warpsmith? Or just general use in games/just for the model?

 

I'd like to at least try the formation out, but GW online, their local shop, and the other game shop near me are out of warpsmith models. I'll have to check auction sites. I'm in no big rush though, I'm trying to up my quality, especially with characters and models like the fiends. It's one thing to have sloppy cultist, they won't be sticking around very long on the table, but I want to be proud of my more important models. That and I think my pile of grey plastic might be getting a little bigger around the 25th.

[Vesper]

Can't wait to see what AD-B will bring us for the personal guard of Abaddon. I remember he wasn't a fan of Bringers of Despair and to be fair me neither.

These guys are known by many names and titles. I hope for a better one than Bringers of Despair.

[Sception]

Slight update to my warband entry in the first post:  In the interest of changing names from the copyrighted inspiration for my warband, The Crimson Eyes's Warlord's name has been retconned to "Hamal Vhilgraf", and I'd like the link, at least for the moment, to direct to my archived fluff thread: http://www.bolterandchainsword.com/topic/283056-the-black-shrine-homebrew-fluff/

 

...

 

As for our Traitor Legions content... maybe it's just that I expected nothing - like, literally nothing - but I'm actually ok with what we got.  It isn't competitive by any stretch, and our marine units get way less out of this book than most of the other Legions, barring only Word Bearers.  We're certainly no Death Guard.  Most of what we can do, other legions will do the same but better.  But at the same time, free vets just flat out, regardless of what formations or detachments we take our units in, is just a huge relief after years suffering under the tax, and the improved hatred, while not great, feels fluffy.  Likewise the detachment, while not at all serious, is at least fluffy and might work for casual funtimes against other low tier lists like orks or tau or deldar or guard.

 

Speaking of our detachment, well, for Warband based lists, the Black Crusade detachment is far superior, thanks to the superior Chaos warband formation.  But while it's disappointing that the Speartip can't take a regular chaos warband, the chaos warband generally is expensive enough that you wouldn't have many points left over to take advantage of that first turn deep strike anyway, especially if you insist on filling out your units with a few extra bodies and upgrades for the aesthetic value.  It's a shame that the warband doesn't let you take terminators instead of CSMs, but so be it.

 

The Hounds of Abaddon is a not-entirely-terrible core formation, though, considering the free mark on top of free vets, and being a couple units smaller than the warband, freeing up more points for command and auxiliaries.

 

 

Here's a list I've been noodling around with for funsies:

 

Speartip

 

Command:

* The Chosen of Abaddon (converted scarabs, cus the models are cool)

- - Sorcerer, lv3, terminator armor, MoTz, last memory, force axe, spell familiar, combi bolter, warlord

- - 4x Terminators, MoTz, 4x combi melta, champ with fist, rest with power sword

 

Core:

* The Hounds of Abaddon

- - Lord, MoK, Juggernaut, axe of blind fury, sigil, meltabombs

- - 5 bikes, MoK, Icon of wrath, 2x meltagun, champ with fist & combi melta

- - 8 berserkers, Icon of wrath, 2x plasma pistol, champ with claw, combi melta, and meltabombs

- - - Rhino with dozer blades

- - 10 CSMs, MoK, Icon of wrath, 2x meltagun, champ with claw, combi melta, and meltabombs

- - - Rhino with dozer blades

 

Auxiliary:

* Helforged Warpack

- - Warpsmith, MoK, Aura of Dark Glory, rides with the 'zerkers

- - Defiler, warpack alpha, cuz it's cool, and a Black Legion signature unit

- - Maulerfiend, tendrils

- - Maulerfiend, tendrils

 

1850 on the nose

 

 

Again, nothing competitive, but a fun sorta rush list.  Dumping the warpack for a raptor talon, or the warpack and the terminators for the bringers, would make better use of the formation bonus, but this is based as much on models I like or have easily accessible lying around as anything else.  It seems like a list I might enjoy giving a run or two, though again not against tau or eldar or mechanicus or vanilla marines.

 

 

I'm really not trying to argue with those who say our TL rules aren't good.  Without scatter mitigation, first turn deep strike is a clown show, and apart from that anything our new detachment does is done better by world eaters, while anything we can do with the old black crusade is done better by... well... anybody but word bearers really.  But that doesn't mean there's no fun to be had with it.

Edited December 9, 2016 by malisteen

[Plaguecaster]

Anyone find it weird that the black legion formation the tormented is not in the Black Legion spear tip as a AUX choice, the formation isn't that bad making possessed ws5. I5 and give them rending of course it doesn't help make possessed great but some people like me use possessed regardless of how bad they are

[durdle-durdle]

Well, in my gaming group, i have a history of losing games largely because my dice hate me. Hatred and super hatred (imperium) goes a long way to fixing that. And i love deep striking. Even when i played grey knights i didnt have any way to mitigate scatter (though i was trying to shoot, not charge same turn). So its not that new to me.

[Sception]

Re: the tormented, it's unfortunate that they aren't an aux choice, but since they don't really gain anything meaningful from the detachment, just crusader, there's not really any cost to running them separate from it.  I mean, apart from whatever aux choice you do end up running, but with a single spawn serving as a legal aux, that's not that big a deal.

[Dallas Drake]

Thinking about Terminators and Chosen as troops - anyone got any ideas. Is melta Termicide & 5 man Chosen with 1 autocannon the only real option? I've been thinking about 6 man Terminators with a Cabal Sorcerer attached, cuurently thinking is there anyway I can get Chosen to work? 5 with 4 flamers might work? They don't mind getting close as they pay for the extra attacks... anyone got any more thoughts?