++ The Bringers of Despair - A Black Legion Community ++

[DaanofWar]

I'm a long time renegade player, but with the release of the new codex I've decided to pledge my allegiance to the warmaster and join the Black Legion. 

 

The reason for this is that while the new Renegade legion trait is amazing, it does not work well if all you've built is bolter marines. The Black Legion trait is a lot more friendly to objective camping bolter dudes and I like that I would now have an excuse to paint and use Abaddon with the army.

 

My main question is now what should I do to make my warband look like a BL force?

 

I was thinking of going simple and just paint the shoulderpads black and add the BL transfer icon from the chaos marine set. Would that be enough to please the warmaster?

 

Here's a picture of my marines as a reference:

 

(click for high res)

[Ulfast]

I think that would work really well. Your blue are pretty dark allready so black shoulder pads with Icons would work. Cool that you want to paint Abaddon too :) 

[Sception]

the stratagem for firing a helbrute twice is for the helbrute unit, not the helbrute keyword.  You can tell b/c there's a different type face for keywords.  FAQ may say otherwise, but for now it's no good.  Your dorito gets the extra leadership (not that that's relevant), and can run and fire any rapid fire weapons it has (not that it will ever want to do that), but doesn't really get too much otherwise.  Not that it needed a boost.

 

Overall, when it comes to subfaction rules...

 

1) Legion Trait: plus one leadership is nice but minor.  Run and shoot rapid fire weapons as assault weapons is kind of terrible, since the main point of rapid fire weapons is shooting twice at short range, and if you shoot them as assault weapons while running not only do you take that penalty to hit, you also don't get that second shot at all.  Regular bolters are already pretty weak this edition IME, cutting their firepower in half then taking a penalty to hit is going to leave them so weak as to be negligible, while plasma guns lose half their shots, take a penalty on the rest, and cannot risk overcharge because of that same penalty.  It's too much.  Maybe bikes can get some use out of it.  Maybe hordes of cultist (with Abby to keep them from running).  But in general it's not even worth trying to use.

I see what GW was trying to do - they were trying to make us the anti ultramarines - they can withdraw and shoot, we can advance and shoot.  But withdrawing and shooting is a fantastic ability that dramatically expands your tactical options, while advancing and shooting - at a huge penalty no less - isn't any of that. 

 

They should have focused on portraying the Black Legion's fluff instead of the ultramarines.  The thing that makes us their opposite is that the Ultras (at least used to) do everything by the book, while Abaddon doesn't care how Black Legion commanders fight, so long as they get the job done.  Our legion trait should have been flexible & applicable to a wide variety of units.  Shooting rapid fire weapons as assault weapons is anything but - many of our most iconic units can't even take them, and those that can are iconic units for us in the first place because of how flexible their equipment options are, flexibility that goes right out the window if you lock them down to rapid fire weapons in order to try to use this trait.  This trait is so unfluffy for Black Legion that trying to use it makes our fluffiest units less fluffy, and the only saving grace is that it's so bad you might as well ignore it and pretend we only get +1 leadership.

but whatever, a bunch of legions & chapters don't like their trait/tactic, what else we got?

 

2)  Warlord Trait - While situational (only works in melee, only works against imperials), I like this trait.  Our warlords come from every possible legion and renegade chapter origin, with no shared tactical disposition.  The one thing that unites them is hatred of the Imperium, that's the driving cause that binds us, so if any legion was going to get anti-imperial rules, it should be us.  The only (and very) frustrating thing is that it overlaps with the slaaneshii icon, which is super frustrating in game if you take any slaaneshi marked units.  Frankly, the slaaneshii icon should be doing something else to begin with, there is nothing about slaanesh that specifically hates on the imperium more than any other god does, or more than slaanesh hates on any other enemy.  If the slaanesh icon was going to hate on particular enemies, it should have been eldar, or khorne.  But otherwise, I like our trait for fluff reasons at least.

 

3)  Artefact - the Eye of Night is lackluster.  Only D3 mortal wounds, on a one use item, that can only target vehicles, is just super SUPER underwhelming.  The old Eye of Night could cripple even powerful vehicles before the fight began, the new Eye of Night can hardly scratch their paint.  That said, the CSM artefact list is painfully lacking in items for utility heroes.  If you're running a lord or exalted champion, maybe even an apostle, then you really should be giving them one of the melee weapon artefacts, but if you're only running special characters (who can't take artefacts), sorcerers, and warpsmith, then the Eye of Night, lackluster as it is, might still be the best option available to you.  With princes, it depends on marks.  Khornate princes really want the talisman, and slaaneshi princes like the elixer (though it might be overkill).  Tzeentch and Nurgle princes, though, really have nothing to gain from the artefact list (unless they're Iron Warriors, of course), so you again might as well take the Eye of Night as your free item, and hold onto it to snipe the last few wounds off of any vehicle that you almost-but-don't-quite kill in the shooting phase.  So, while I don't think our artefact is particularly good, or very exciting, it'll probably see more use then you might think it deserves at first glance.  IMO it won't ever be worth spending CP on, though, and if for some reason mid game you do find d3 mortal wounds on a 2+ to hit to be worth command point, you can always fire a warp bolt.

 

4) Stratagem.  Our stratagem is decent - 1CP to re-roll ones to hit with an infantry or bike unit in shooting or assault, or all misses if the unit is basic CSMs.  Unfortunately, even with the boost it probably isn't worth using on a CSM unit, and other infantry or bike squads will probably get more out of that command point if you use Veterans of the Long War instead, though of course the two can be used together.  And it doesn't stack with auras from lords, apostles, or Abaddon.  It will mostly be worth using if you're overcharging plasma without the aid of prescience or a re-roll aura.  That's still pretty good, though.  In particular, it lets us run deep striking plasma-spamming havocs, chosen, or terminators without an HQ dedicated to baby sitting them.

 

5) Special Character.  While the rest of our subfaction-specific stuff is either bad or somewhat uninspiring or fluffy-but-only-situationally-useful, I'd still say the Black Legion is one of the strongest legions in this book, and that comes down almost entirely to our Warmaster, Abaddon the Despoiler.  He has everything and does everything.  All the versatility that is absent in our legion trait can be found in the Despoiler.  Between his re-roll aura, his fearless aura, his multiple alignments, his personal damage output, his high endurance, and his ability to deep strike, and now his two extra command points combined with the variety of strong stratagems in the codex, Abaddon can do every job and support every army.

 

Want to run a cultist horde?  His auras will keep them from running and make their attacks accurate enough to matter, the extra will pay for a tide of traitors, and his personal killing power will eliminate enemies too beefy for your cultists to handle.  Want to run a static gunline?  He'll keep your cultist screens in place, keep your big guns on target, and pay for a couple kill shots or fire frenzies himself.  Want to run an assault rush?  Again, re-rolls to hit, extra command points, and our single hardest hitting model short of a lord of skulls will be quite welcome.  Going for an assassination run?  Drop him in with some sorcerers, load up the buffs, and warp time him into charge range with a very dead anything.  Just need a highly distracting bullet sponge?  Load him up with all three of the aligned defensive spells and put him in the front of your army.  When he's still alive next turn, use his free CP to heal him back up with the nurgle stratagem.

 

..............

 

Apart from Abaddon, most of our Legion stuff is mediocre or worse, so should we even bother?  What are the requirments for faction and subfaction rules?

 

IMO from highest priority to lowest:

 

CSM stratagems: You need to run at least one non-auxilliary CSM detachment (ie, units from legions other than DG and TS).  Some of the stratagems are amazing, so you absolutely want to hit this requirement, but the CSM detachment doesn't have to be pure Black Legion even to access the Black Legion stratagem - though it can only be used on Black Legion units.  A mixed legion detachment would let you access some of the other legion stratagems.  Say, infiltrating an alpha legion squad while the rest of your army is Black Legion to benefit from abaddon's auras.

 

Special Character: Taking Abaddon as your warlord puts no other restrictions on your army, with the exception that your army has to be battleforged to get his bonus command points.  His fearless aura works for all heretic astartes (including DG and TS), though his re-roll aura only works for Black Legion units.

 

Artefacts:  To take CSM artefacts, including legion artefacts, your warlord needs to be a CSM unit - ie have a legion other than DG or TS.  Note that the legion-specific artefacts only require that the model you put them on be of the appropriate legion.  In a mixed legion detachment, Abaddon could be your general and you could still take an Iron Warriors daemon prince with the Fleshmetal Exoskeleton.

 

Despoilers of the Galaxy: the obsec rule for troops.  Requires a CSM detachment, and only applies to troops in that detachment.  This would rate higher, but our troops aren't the most impressive or durable, so I imagine a lot of CSM players will be minimizing troops, taking only enough to qualify for battalion CPs.  Still, it's an ability you want to have, and it actually can become pretty significant if you run a cultist horde.  Considering that it has the same prerequisite as the CSM stratagems, you might as well, right?

 

Warlord Traits: only require that your warlord be a CSM character.  The legion warlord traits only require that your warlord be of the given legion, they don't put any additional restrictions on the rest of your army.

 

Legion Trait: requires a detachment be entirely Black Legion units, apart from fallen or Bile, and only applies to Black Legion units in that detachment.  the leadership boost is nice, but not critical, especially if you're running Abaddon.  The shooting rapid fire weapons as assault thing will almost never be useful, and certainly isn't worth building around if other options are superior (eg, even with the black legion trait, I'd still recommend close combat weapons and flamers for cultist hordes).

 

 

IMO, a Black Legion player should strongly consider taking Abaddon as your warlord, and should definitely run at least one non auxiliary pure CSM detachment for Despoilers of the Galaxy and CSM stratagems if nothing else, though beyond that I think you might as well mix things up with general Chaos stuff if there's anything you like from Daemons and R&H.

 

Whether or not your at-least-one pure CSM detachment should be a pure Black Legion detachment depends on how much you can get out of other legions' stratagems & artefacts.  If you're running a prince, you might be better off dropping our legion trait to give the prince a Fleshmetal Exoskeleton.  If you're running a big unit of berzerkers or possessed, you might be better off dropping our legion trait to infiltrate them with the alpha legion stratagem for an all-but-guaranteed first turn charge.  Beyond that, I don't think any of the other artefacts or stratagems are worth giving up the Black Legion trait's leadership bonus and dealing with the hassle of non-interacting legion auras.

 

If in the future we ever get a crazy powerful, short ranged, non-deep-striking shooting unit, like Primaris Aggressors, then infiltrating such a unit will absolutely be worth giving up our legion trait.  I've been watching the local Raven Guard player annihilating armies, including my own, with a couple infiltrated squads of aggressors.  It isn't pretty.

[dakkamasta]

I feel like with the buff to obliterators, they have become a very good, if not one of the best units to combo with Abbadon for deep striking. I know we have all come to agree that Abbadon + Sorcerer + Terminators with plasma is the go to choice for a classic Black Legion speartip strike, but Obliterators really get a lot of benefits with Abby.

 

First of all this implies they are Slaanesh marked obliterators. You drop down with Abby and a unit of obliterators, spend 1 CP for Veterans of the Long War stratagem for +1 to wound. At the end of the shooting phase you use the Slaanesh stratagem to make them shoot twice. Now each obliterator is shooting 8 shots each, rerolling misses, whilst being cheaper than the terminators and nearly as durable (of course no where near as good in CC). To top this off they won't die to overheating so they don't need a sorcerer to babysit, and their effective range is double that of the terminators rapid firing plasma, so it will be incredibly difficult for your opponent to negate their shooting via bubble wrap. Eg. I fought an Astra Militarum army that used scout sentinels to protect his chimeras from deep strike shooting, the obliterators had no problem landing within range of 2 of them and destroyed both in that one turn. This would not have been possible with terminators.

 

Of course this means not dropping Abbadon in a prime location for a warptime + 1st turn charge combo, but even with Abbadon's resilience I don't like sending him way ahead of my army in front of all the enemy's guns. It also means by dropping him in a more centralised position so it will be much easier to provide his aura buffs to more of your army.

 

Edit: Grammar mistakes.

Edited August 16, 2017 by dakkamasta

[Sception]

Obliterators are a lot better than under the index, and you certainly can run them this way, but there's still some problems with them.

 

First, of course, is the unreliability.  You cannot rely on obliterator guns to be better than a reaper autocannon, which is an alright gun, but three reaper autocannons isn't exactly something I'm going to burn three whole command points on.  Maybe if you could take them in larger squads, but obliterators both min and max at 3 models per, which really limits the amount of mileage you can get out of those stratagems compared to terminators.

 

The second problem is melee.  Abaddon's a beast, but he isn't going to beat down whole armies by himself, he wants some backup.  And even if you're not running them as a retinue for a melee character, if you're investing that much in them you'll still want them active for more than one turn.  Any charge from anything will silence the damage output from oblits.  Terminators have shooting very close to on-par with obliterators, but marry that with power weapons and fists in close combat, while obliterators are currently stuck swinging combat knives.

 

 

So you /can/ use obliterators this way, but I think it's a mistake to go all in supporting them with characters and command points.  I think you're better off using them as support rather than as a primary hammer.

[dakkamasta]

I probably should have explained in more detail.

 

I think this method would be very effective with a more shooty based army, landing them near mid-range shooty units such as noise marines, rubrics, defilers etc. He will boost not only the oblits but multiple units around him whilst also making it scary to assault anything since big bad Abbadon will be nearby.

 

The thing I don't like about dropping up the front with terminators is that you get all these awesome aura abilities but only 1 unit is in range of them. Not saying it isn't a good tactic because it's awesome, but it doesn't fit every list.

 

As for reliability, plasma terminators can kill themselves even with rerolls. Yes prescience mitigates this but the oblits are roughly 80ish points cheaper whilst also not needing a 150ish point sorcerer babysitting them. Also any flyers or anything with a -1 to hit (eg. venoms) are out of the question since the modifier means a dead terminator or two potentially. The obliterators can fire at any target without risk at double the effective range. Yes they're a bit random. But RAW you can use the stratagem after you roll for their weapon's stats so if you roll poorly just don't use the CP on them and save it for another turn or another unit. Also a smart player can easily keep the termis out of rapid fire range of their important units by screening with chaff. A lot harder to do with a 24" range.

 

As for getting charged, they have enough range for that to be nearly impossible the turn they arrive, and worst case scenario Abbadon will be there to save them.

 

This can still work with termis aswell. The game i played against Astra Militarum had Abby, sorcerer, plasma termis and oblits. I planned to land them together but he screwed my plan with scout sentinels so i split them. Abby and oblits in the middle alongside the rest of the army while the sorcerer and termis landed way up near their table edge to harass the back field. Worked like a charm.

[Sception]

Even if you drop amid other units, terminators are still a better choice for CP expenditure, because CP expenditure is limited, and terminators just let you get more dakka out of it on unit size alone.  Three obliterator guns are better than three combi plas, sure, but better than five?  better than seven?  I'm not convinced that burning 3+ CP on three obliterators is a good call.  Again, if you could take them in squads of six, that would be different.

 

I'm not saying oblits are bad, though.  I don't have a strong opinion about them one way or the other.  It's just that I'm not convinced they're a strong target for expensive unit-wide buffs.

[Dallas Drake]

I wouldn't be too quick to write Obliterators off. The ability to drop down 24" away from something you want to shoot is very powerful. To do damage Terminators need to be 9-12" really (combi plasma). The D3 roll on S/AP/D is a bit swingy (lolz we're chaos) but there are times when you'll get S9 AP3 D3 and 4 shots each is a hell of a lot more decent; 12 'lascannon' shots will ruin someones day. Yes, there are times you'll wnd up with effectively reaper autocannons but it's not like they're that bad and that won't happen every time. Statistically you're getting 12 x (unit of 3) S8 AP2 D2 guns, which is better than the Leviathan's butcher cannon array. I'm planning 3 units of 3 for my 'Black Legion' army.

Edited August 17, 2017 by Dallas Drake

[Sception]

I'm not writing them off, I'm not arguing against /taking/ them, I just wouldn't advice taking them with the intent of burning 3+ CP plus spells on them.  I think they're fine for what they are, for the points cost of taking them, but I think expensive unit buffs are better spent on larger units with greater total damage output.

[dakkamasta]

Fair enough, although we have slightly conflicting opinions I do appreciate your feedback Malisteen as you make fair points. The main reason I'm trying to look to alternatives to deep strike plasma is because players are starting to learn how to counter it with careful deployment and the last thing I want is for my expensive terminator + abbadon + sorcerer combo to be forced to land in an unfavourable position and not even get a proper volley off, end up charging one of their throw away units, and then get wiped out the following turn. 

 

Yes I will agree that obliterators are less consistent than plasma terminators in their damage output, and yes they are terrrible in CC. However they have much more flexibility in terms of their potential landing zones and target choice, all the while costing far less points.

 

Of course it's still early and people are still digging within the codex to find the awesome combos of units and buffs so time will tell. It's a good time for the Legion.

[Archaeinox]

Folks, I have a cool guy who plays Black Legion and he wants to bring Poxwalkers and Tzaangors as Troops in a tournament & friendly setting to get those sweet BL goodies. Can he do that?

Edited August 17, 2017 by Archaeinox

[Panzer]

Folks, I have a guy who plays Black Legion and he wants to bring Poxwalkers and Tzaangors as Troops in a tournament to get those sweet BL goodies. Can he do that?

He can, if he takes them in a Death Guard or TSons Detachment. Otherwise, no.

[Sception]

depends on which goodies you're talking about.

 

.................

 

To get the stratagems, he needs at least one 'CSM detatchment', which is a detatchment where everything has one of the following keywords on its datasheet: <legion>, black legion, alpha legion, iron warriors, word bearers, night lords, world eaters, emperor's children, or red coursairs. Note that the thousand sons and death guard keywords do not appear on this list.

 

Tzaangors and poxwalkers don't have these keywords, so he needs at least one non-auxiliary detatchment that doesn't include them, but he's free to put them in other detatchments of his army. He won't be able to use any of the CSM stratagems on those units, but he can still take them. Note that, once they're unlocked, CSM stratagems can be used on CSM units, even if those units aren't in a CSM detatchment.

 

For example, imagine he has two battalion detachments - one CSM detatchment with three units of black legion chaos space marines, one unit of black legion plague marines, abaddon (his warlord), and a Black Legion exalted champion; and one mixed chaos battalion detatchment with one unit of tzaangors, one unit of poxwalkers, one unit of iron warriors cultists, one unit of bloodletters, an exalted sorcerer, and an iron warriors daemon prince of khorne.

 

This army has at least one non-auxiliary, pure-CSM detatchment, and so he may use the CSM stratagems on his CSM units, including the iron warriors cultists and daemon prince in the mixed chaos detatchment.

 

He may not use those stratagems on non-csm units, though. For instance, he could not use the 'great sorcerer' stratagem on his exalted sorcerer, since that is a thousand sons unit.

 

If, say, the bloodletter unit were part of the first detachment instead of the second, or if the plague marines were death guard instead of black legion, then he would not have any pure CSM detatchments, and would not be allowed to use the CSM stratagems at all.

 

...............

 

To get the artefacts, his warlord must be a CSM charater, which is a character with one of the previously mentioned keywords. The character who carries the artefact, if that isn't his warlord, must also be a CSM character, and cannot be a named special character.

 

So his warlord cannot be a poxwalker or tzaangor, nor can his warlord be Ahriman or Magnus, not if he wants to take any of the CSM artefacts in his army. But he can have those units or characters in his army and still have a CSM artefact, they just can't be his warlord nor can they be the character holding the artefact. In fact, if his warlord is a CSM character, he could give them a CSM artefact even if none of the other units in his army are CSM units.

 

Note that some artefacts require a specific legion keyword. This applies only to the character holding the artefact, not to the warlord or anyone else.

 

For example, imagine the same army as before. Again, he has two battalion detachments - one CSM detatchment with three units of black legion chaos space marines, one unit of black legion plague marines, abaddon (his warlord), and a Black Legion exalted champion; and one mixed chaos battalion detatchment with one unit of tzaangors, one unit of poxwalkers, one unit of iron warriors cultists, one unit of bloodletters, an exalted sorcerer, and an iron warriors daemon prince of khorne.

 

His general is Abaddon, who is a CSM character because his datasheet lists the black legion keyword. Since his warlord is a CSM character, he may give one of his non-unique CSM characters a CSM artefact. He cannot give Abaddon an artefact because he is a unique named character. He cannot give the exalted sorcerer a CSM artefact because, as a thousand sons unit, he is not a CSM character.

 

He can give a CSM artefact to either the black legion exalted champion or the iron warriors daemon prince. He elects to give the daemon prince the fleshmetal exoskeleton. This artefact requires the bearer to have the iron warriors keyword, which he has given the daemon prince, so that's fine. It doesn't matter that his general is from another legion.

 

If, instead, the exalted sorcerer were his warlord, then his army couldnt have any CSM artefacts at all.

 

..................

 

To get the CSM warlord traits, your warlord must be a CSM character, or Fabius Bile. CSM special characters, and Bile, get specific warlord traits, generic characters can pick. Some of the warlord traits require the warlord to be from a particular legion, but none of them place any requirements on the rest of his army. Again, his warlord could be a CSM character with a CSM warlord traits even if it were the only CSM model in his army.

 

For example, imagine the same army as before. Again, he has two battalion detachments - one CSM detatchment with three units of black legion chaos space marines, one unit of black legion plague marines, abaddon (his warlord), and a Black Legion exalted champion; and one mixed chaos battalion detatchment with one unit of tzaangors, one unit of poxwalkers, one unit of iron warriors cultists, one unit of bloodletters, an exalted sorcerer, and an iron warriors daemon prince of khorne.

 

Since Abaddon is his warlord, he can have a CSM warlord trait, and in particular will always have the 'first among traitors' trait.

 

If the iron warriors daemin prince were his warlord instead, then he could choose one of the CSM warlord traits for him, including the iron warriors trait, though he could not have 'first among traitors', as that can only be taken on a black legion warlord.

 

If the exalted sorcerer were his warlord, then he could not take a CSM warlord trait at all.

 

................

 

To access the despoilers of the galaxy (ie, obsec troops) rule, he must have a CSM detatchment, which, again, is a detatchment where every unit has one of the previously mentioned legion keywords. And even then, the rule only applies to troop units in such a detatchment.

 

For example, imagine the same army as before. Again, he has two battalion detachments - one CSM detatchment with three units of black legion chaos space marines, one unit of black legion plague marines, abaddon (his warlord), and a Black Legion exalted champion; and one mixed chaos battalion detatchment with one unit of tzaangors, one unit of poxwalkers, one unit of iron warriors cultists, one unit of bloodletters, an exalted sorcerer, and an iron warriors daemon prince of khorne.

 

The first detachment is a CSM detachment, and so gains the despoilers of the galaxy rule for its troops units. The second detachment is not a pure CSM unit, so its troops units don't benefit from the rule, not even the iron warriors cultists, who are a CSM unit themselves. If those cultists were part of the first detachment instead than they would benefit from the rule.

 

..............

 

To access the legion traits rule for one of the CSM legions (including renegade chapters but not including thousand sons or plague marines), your army must include at least one non-auxiliary, pure-csm detachment consisting exclusively of units from the same legion or renegade chapter. For the purposes of this rule (and only this rule, until faq says otherwise), you may ignore Fabius Bile and any units with the fallen keyword. The legion traits rule will then apply to all bikes, infantry, and helbrutes in those detatchments.

 

For example, imagine the same army as before. Again, he has two battalion detachments - one CSM detatchment with three units of black legion chaos space marines, one unit of black legion plague marines, abaddon (his warlord), and a Black Legion exalted champion; and one mixed chaos battalion detatchment with one unit of tzaangors, one unit of poxwalkers, one unit of iron warriors cultists, one unit of bloodletters, an exalted sorcerer, and an iron warriors daemon prince of khorne.

 

The first detatchment is a pure black legion detachnent, and so all bikes, infantry, and helbrutes in the detachment gain the black legion trait.

 

If the bkack legion plague marines were part of the second detatchment, they would not gainvthe legion trait rule, as they would not be part of a pure black legion detatchment.

 

If the iron warriors cultists were part of the first detachment instead of the second, none of the units in either detachment would benefit from legion traits.

 

...........

 

That covers all of the subfaction rules, but there are some other things to be aware of.

 

Spells - thousand sons sorcerers have been granted access to the expanded dark hereticus discipline from the CSM codex, and so the exalted sorcerer in the example army can use CSM spells like death hex even though he is not a CSM psyker.

 

Auras - its important to read these carefully to see which units they apply to. In the exanple army, abaddon's reroll misses aura applies only to the Black Legion units, while his immune to morale aura applies to all 'heretic astartes' units, including the iron warriors cultists and daemon prince, the exalted sorcerer, the poxwalkers, and the tzaangors, but does not apply to the bloodletters. The exalted champion's aura applies to the black legion units. The exalted sorcerer's aura applies to the thousand sons units (himself and the tzaangors), and the daemon princes aura applies to both iron warriors units (himself and the cultists) and khornate daemons (himself and the bloodletters).

 

As you can see, keeping that stuff straight in a mixed army can get tricky.

 

Pls excuse typos, am on mobile.

Edited August 17, 2017 by malisteen

[Dallas Drake]

I've decided to take Black Legion to a tournament. I was all set to 'counts as Alpha Legion' but then I figured, "what the hell", I'm not exactly going to win so stay loyal!

 

That said, what is the most competitive army we can bring? Right now I'm basically going for an alpha strike from hell that burns quite a few CPs turn 1 in the hope that I carve a big enough dent in the opponent to swing the game.

 

Any thoughts?

[Sception]

how many points? How many detachments? Is FW allowed? Are they using the previewed chapter approved rules (fliers not scoring, first to finish deployment gets +1 on roll to go first instead of going first automatically)? Any house rules? what kind of terrain do you expect? Do you know what scenarios will be used?

[Dallas Drake]

Yeah, that would help wouldn't it!?

 

2K. 3 detachments max. 25% can be FW. Previewed chapter rules stand. No house rules aside from 25% FW. Missions are a standard mix of eternal & maelstrom.

 

As of now I have this as a rough idea. It's worth mentioning that I don't want to use cultists, I play DG too and moving 80 poxwalkers around just kills me. Anyway...

 

Battalion (8CP total)

 

Abby

Sorcerer in Terminator armour

9 Terminators - 9 combi-plasma & 4 axes/5 fists (Slaanesh)

3x5 CSM - heavy bolter and combi bolter

2 Rhinos - havoc & combi bolter

Leviathan - dual butcher cannon array + 2 hellflamers

3 Oblits (Slaanesh)

3 Oblits (Slaanesh)

 

It's an alpha strike idea. I just hope the Rhinos, CSMs & Leviathans can stay alive 1 turn if I don't get the 1st turn.

 

I was messing around with Alpha Legion and the Changeling list to get the -2 to hit on Daemon units but I just feel the coolness of the Black Legion so much more... plus my dudes are painted black

[Sception]

You didn't say, but I'm assuming prescience and delightful agonies are on the sorcerer by default, with cp burned on a familiar if you need warp time or death hex.

 

I'm also assuming you're giving the sorcerer the eye of night.

 

Hrm. Do you know what sort of lists you'll be facing? For a generalist alpha strike at 2k points, I'd figure you'd want to be able to kill the following in a single turn (not necessarily all at the same time):

 

A knight titan

2-3 big bugs or heavy vehicles

50 gaunts/conscripts

6 units msu meq squads

2 light transports, plus 4 msu meqsquads that fall out

2 squads of termis, or gravis, or crisis suits with drones

 

Lets just take the knight first. Now, if you can land your reserves w/in 12" of a knight, there's no question. Between veterana of the long war, endless cacophony, prescience, and rerolls to hit, you will absolutely demolish a knight. Heck, with average rolls out of the oblits, you could kill one knight and still have your secomd round of fire from the termies free to deal 15 odd wounds to another.

 

Even if they screen well enough that you can't get into rapid fire range, you should still be able to drop a knight on average rolls, though it's a lot less reliable, and you may get stuck banking on the eye of night to shave off the last couple wounds.

 

And thats all assuming you go second and as such have already lost your leviathan. If you go first, you stand a solid shot of downing two knights.

 

multiple big bugs or heavy vehicles should drop as easily. Lets see, vs two land raiders...

 

If you can land your termies w/in 12", again, easy peasy. If not, it gets a lot iffier, your whole army shooting should just barely bring down the second land raider with average rolls, only barely hitting threshhold.

 

ok, so little guys. Shooting both ends of their combi weapons, plus prescience and endless cacophony, the terminators can drop 40 guard or gaunt equivalents outside of cover, and to rest of your drop force should get you over 50 befote you even consider the ground forces. But that's only helpful if the geqs are the actual threat, and not just screens. If they're just screens, you're probably better off shooting over them and accepting that you won't get to double tap your plasma, though depending on the targets they're screening, it might be worth rapid firing the bolter nozzles at the screens and overcharging the plasma nozzles at the units behind, even if this does expose you to a slight risk of overheat. with average rolls, votlw, endless cacophony, and prescience, the termies would average 14ish wounds against a knight or land raider target and 17ish wounds against conscripts, that before eye of night, oblits, abby, and any survivors from the ground forces.

 

So... good enough. what about cracking transports? can you open at least one rhino before your termies take their first shot? Answer should be yes, even without help frim ground forces. Then the termies shpuld be able to shoot boltets at the units that fall out, nuke a seconf transport with plasma (at slight risk of overheat), and endless cacophony to fire bolters and plasma at remaining units

 

Ok. Should be covered there. Meq and teq units... should be good there....

 

 

Ok, yeah, even if you lose your ground forces completely before you get to go, tou shpuld be able to pit some serious hurt on the opposing army with your reserves, even regardless of what they're fielding. But will it be enough to weather whatever they have left to throw back at you?

 

9 terminators. Lets say they're still a serious threat at 5 models, the opponent would have to deal 10 wounds to reduce them under that threshhold, on average what will that take, assuming they have delightful agonies up?

 

135 tac marines rapid firing bolters - small arms in general probably isnt an issue.

 

10 marines rapid firing overcharged plasma guns - your initial strike better not leave any hellblasters / chaos terminators / sternguard / etc standing.

 

A single round of fire from an uninjured dual dakka knight w/ missile pod and meltagun, without even resorting to stomping on them in melee.

 

A single round of shooting plus assault from a lord of skulls, regardless of how injured it is. Don't leave them alive.

 

In general, focus on threats to your terminators and oblits. Small arms fire can generally be weathered. If you can make it to your second turn with your heroes, oblits, half your terminators, and anything at all from your ground forces alive, you should be in good shape?

 

Obviously try to use LoS blocking terrain to limit your opponent's ability to respond to your reserves. In particular, the oblit squads are small enough, with a long enough range, that they should try to drop in cover.

 

I worry about those ground forces if you go second, though. If they're entirely wiped out, then you should still be able to do a lot of damage with your reserves, but your ability to claim objectives will be greatly diminished.

[Dallas Drake]

I have no idea what I'll be facing but I think there will be a lot of what's being seen at most tournaments. Nasty stuff!

 

Thanks for this Malisteen. I would've replied earlier but I had a family emergency to sort out and have been in A&E for the last 6 hours. Anyway...

 

So it seems that Black Legion can put down a nasty alpha strike, that's good to know. I think the hurt that a big plasma, Slaanesh Terminator unit led by Abaddon can out down is insane, perhaps even overkill. Oblits are good back up and the 24" range is decent.

 

Yes, I was thinking prescience and delightful agonies unless I need to strip invuls or warptime but like you said we have a stratagem for that if we need to change in game.

 

I am worried about the 3xCSMs & Rhinos though. Am I right in thinking that if your army on the table is wiped then irrespective of reserves you auto-lose? If that''s the case I might be better taking a Black Legion Spearhead detachment then a Battalion detachment of horrors. As good as the Leviathan is CSMs (and even Cultists) don't have much staying power. For 500 points I can get Changeling, herald, 40 Brims and 40 Blues. The -1 to hit can overlap on the Oblits too if I mark them Tzeentch.

[Sception]

If you have nothing on the table at the end of any player turn after the first battle round.  So if you go second and your ground forces are wiped out, you can still bring in your reserves on your first turn.

 

If you go second against a similar alpha rush, this is actually a pretty likely situation.  In a mirror match, you'd have a halfway decent chance to wipe out your own ground forces in the first turn of the game.  But then the other you's reserves would arrive and mince a big portion of your own army - your termies would have little trouble wiping out your termies, for instance.  The whole thing would turn into a bloody mess.  Honestly, you'll probably see a lot of bloody messes.  All cards on the table, I haven't played all that many games yet, a lot of this is theory craft and math hammer.  I'm curious to hear how things go for you.

[Lukash_]

Going to run Abaddon, a big (8+ man) Terminator bodyguard, and some psychic support for an alpha strike list. Of the marked powers, which would you say is the best at keeping a firemagnet unit like that safe? I'm leaning towards the Nurgle one for the use against overcharged plasma, but I'm curious what you guys think.

[Sception]

While the nurgle power is particularly good against plasma, the slaaneshi power is near as good or beyter against everything else, and endless cacophony is hard to pass up on large terminator squads.

[Dallas Drake]

Yeah, Slaanesh synergises so well with Terminators; endless cacophony with vets of the long war, prescience, delightful agonies, and Abaddon.

 

I have games booked in with; IG, Tyranids, Space Marines, and Chaos Daemons. I'm going to test the list and see how it performs. Whether I take mono Black Legion or Tzeentch Daemons as allies is 50/50 tbh.

[techsoldaten]

So, I am playing 8th edition in earnest and running a Black Legion army. 

 

Have been playing around with different lists and have settled on one that includes Abaddon, a DP, 3 squads of CSMs, 2 squads of Noise Marines, 3 Laspreds, a Heldrake, some Rhinos, and some variations based on what I am in the mood for (cultists, Helbrutes, daemons, a Kharybdis Assault Claw, etc.) 

 

Here are some photos of part of my Black Legion army.  It does not include my Daemons, Helbrutes, or any of the 30k SoH stuff I sometimes use in battles (i.e. Fire Raptor, Sicaran, Kharybdis Assault Claw, Rapiers, etc). It's also not all the models, I have about twice as many cult troops as seen in the photos, a ton of spawn, more Land Raiders, etc. So it's possible for me to test out a variety of different lists without needing to get new models. I have done Berzerkers coming in from a KAC, Rubric Marines out of a Land Raider, massed cultists, biker spam, 7x Helbrute assaults, Raptor assaults, Terminator drops, etc.

 

The list I am using now has been very effective. Anything that can have a Lascannon does, and I mostly forgo psychic powers except on the Daemon Prince. And he mostly only ever casts Warptime on himself. The goal of this army is to move the Noise Marines up in Rhinos to create a firing base, while the Heldrake, Laspreds, and Daemon Prince create early game threats that get all the attention. The Noise Marines eventually mow down stuff from the middle of the board while Abaddon, the DP and their CSM goons knock out objectives.

 

While most games are going the way I would like, it feels like I am missing something about 8th edition mechanics. 

 

1) Feels like it's impossible to put together a brigade detachment at 2000 points, at least with the units available in the Codex. Anyone else running into this?

 

2) In terms of stratagems, the only thing I find myself using is the reroll. Have never had a use for anything else, the rest is too situational. What else works well for Black Legion?

 

3) In terms of detachments, I am debating this a little in another thread. Is there a good reason to use multiple detachments and try to max out command points? It feels like anything more than a Battalion just means I am adding on layers of HQs that I don't need. It also feels like I am going to run out at some important point in the game (which never happens, it just feels like it's going to happen.)

 

4) I personally find summoning to be great. It's an instant screen for a character who will then get to charge the enemy the next turn. Stops things like Tyrannids from getting to charge and keeps ICs safe when it matters. Anyone else finding them to be a valid tactic for the Black Legion?

 

5) Several other BL players are playing their lists as Alpha Legion for the -1 at distance. I don't particularly care to do that, mostly because my ranged units are not infantry and the ones that matter are in Rhinos. Anyone else feeling like our Legion train is a disadvantage?

 

6) Abaddon's rule that lets him cut damage in half is pretty powerful, it makes him like a 14 wound unit that can't be shot most of the time. I find myself setting up my squads so no one can deep strike anywhere near him at any time, he's never the closest model. At the same time, I want to get him in combat quicker. Anyone else feeling that strain?

[Sception]

That is an impressive army, good job!  I'm super jealous.

 

I wouldn't try to fit a brigade at 2k.  Not for CSMs, anyway.  Consider a Brigade at 3k points or more, maybe.

 

At 2k, I mostly run a single Battalion, but I'm not all that competitive in actual practice.  That said, a pair of Battalion's is worth it for the CP - there are some real game winners in the CSM codex stratagems - but even then I'd only take one Black Legion detachment, the second should probably be generic chaos in order to meet the requirements with cheaper troops and HQ's from daemons or renegades & heretics.

 

In particular, daemonic heralds, including their named versions, are cheap & good (remember that they can buff CSM daemon units like possessed, oblits, warp talons, and daemon princes), as are malefic lords for discount smite spam.  Brimstones or mutant rabble make for cheap troop fodder, fiends of slaanesh can be a game changer for their ability to actually pin enemy units in melee, and earthshaker batteries are some of the best discount fire support around, plus you can use that generic side detachment to take some CSMs from other legions.  You won't get to use their Legion Traits, but you can use their artefacts, stratagems, & alternate troop choices that way.  A horde of infiltrating Alpha Legion Berzerkers can do a great job of kicking the door open while your tank-riding Black Legionnaires get in to position, while some Noise Marines on loan from the emperor's children can give you the same solid cover-ignoring anti-infantry fire support while filling one of the side detachment's compulsory troop slots.  Just be sure to keep track of which units are from what legions and in which detachments, as it will make a difference on what auras & side abilities they can benefit from.

 

The chaos marine codex, while maybe not as strong as the loyalist book, is super versatile.  And since the Black Legion trait kind of sucks, it's not really worth basing your army on it, and as such it doesn't really funnel you towards or away from any particular builds, imo.  So you can kind of do just about anything.  But our units are pretty expensive, so you can't do everything at the same time.  Just pick something and build for it, and you should do alright, particularly if you keep an open eye on the available options from forgeworld & cherry picking options from other legions or chaos armies.

[thamier]

so i made a BL list now but i havent tested it so its all theory so far, im also not very good at playing most of my hobby time goes to building and painting.

 

the local rules here ,(i was aiming for competitive play) no forge world 2000p cant summon extra points and thats about it.

 

so the list 2000p black legion brigade detachment 11cp

 

with abaddon and two jump pack sorc with warptime and death hex smite.

 

troops 4x 10 stand autogun cultists

 

and 2x 30 auto gun cultists with 3 flamers all moarked slaanesh

 

elites

 

 

5 no upgrade chosen

 

15 noise marines with sonics

 

5 poweraxe/combiplasma slaanesh terminators

 

fast attack 3x spawn

 

 

heavy support 3x 5 slaanesh havocs with4 heavy bolters each

 

the sorc get the artifact and itcan either run with all deployed as fire base with abaddon rerolls or deepstrike, with all the cp its built to use 3 main strategems

 

nurgle heal on abaddon ;)

 

extra shooting on a slaanesh unit(depending on were you need it)

 

and tide of traitors on alternating 30 man cultists let them take a beating or lock into combat? then redeply back to full strenght (prefbly near abaddon for rerolls) maybe even get rapid firex2

 

so toughts whatdo you think? iknow its probably awful but like to hear what the experts think