General Discussion Secundus

[Demus Ragnok]

That would definitely lend itself to one heck of a tragic story arc for Gwal. The Pacifist seeking to stand by his convictions but compelled to act by evidence he desperately wants to deny, only to be disgraced for failing to act sooner by those he loves most. It's makes for great story telling but I'm starting to see some writer's bias in the the feedback.

Please elaborate on what you see as "some writer's bias".

[MikhalLeNoir]

And so Gwal ends as pariah^^

[bluntblade]

If we are going to pile misery on Gwal, perhaps a large portion of the Wardens will insist on standing apart from their Primarch, pledging their swords solely to the Warmaster they served previously.

[Nomus Sardauk]

To be honest all of this talk of misery for Gwal is seriously giving me a massive grimdark feeling, Gwal, perhaps the biggest idealist among the Primarchs, is torn between murdering his brothers in the name of duty or holding true to his ideals and standing by as they kill each other along with countless innocents caught in the crossfire.

And when he finally acts he's despised by his brothers as a worthless coward and traitor, his name & legacy forever and irredeemably tainted. "Where were you?" They spit at him, "Where were you when Daer'dd was murdered? Where were you when Azus was imprisoned and experimented on? Where were you when the Dominion burned under the Blood Crusade? Where were you when the Insurrectionists almost broke through to Terra, and were stopped only through the bloody sacrifice of countless trillions of loyal human soldiers? Ordinary human soldiers who had the courage to do what YOU, a demigod son of the Emperor, genetically tailored from the ground up to wage war and conquer the galaxy, could not. WHERE WERE YOU GWAL?"

 

This feels right to me, the Grimdark is strong here, I say we embrace it.

 

As to everyone worrying about the lateness of Gwal's rejoining diminishing the reader's sympathy for his inner turmoil, perhaps we could move up his return by two or three years but still sort of delay him by having him have to fight his way through the rearguard of the Inssurectionists main forces pushing towards Terra? Could make for an interesting lore segment with multiple running space battles as the WoL try to punch through the Traitors' rear defences and/or circumvent around the main body of their forces to reach Terra?

[Sigismund229]

+1

[Talonair]

That'd need to be very secretive indeed. Perhaps she fails to help him against enemy action?

 

That's the plan. Or otherwise has him in the perfect situation to do away with him personally

It's a tricky one - I do wonder if we weighted the Suzerainty a bit heavily. But with the fruits of Abyssii's perverted science, the Berserkers and The Drowned given licence to create whatever abominations they please and the Predators defecting (seizing/exposing the swathes of territory they were previously defending) it's possible. We need to make it plausible, replete with extensive expansion of traitor Morning Stars, Halcyon Wardens and Dune Serpents forces.

 

I'm curious as to what Abyssii science you're referring to :P

[bluntblade]

Arrgh, not again. I meant Cognis

[simison]

Have more theological concepts, for I am still erratic for another two more weeks:

 

Sorrowsworn Morro - The Soul-Eater, Monster of the Deep, Champion of Slaanesh - Morro is the sole Primarch to become a devil among both Humanity and the Eldar for his horrid deeds. The Daemon Primarch is said to be consumed by an insatiable hunger for the souls of others, stalking them from beneath the waves until he strikes. Like K'awil he is another aspect of the dangers of straying too far from the light of Humanity. Unlike K'awil, he is not associated with the dark so much as 'bottomless' depths. It is said that he can only be summoned in the deeps. 

 

Koschei Kharkovic - The Pestilence, Bringer of Sorrows, Nurgle's Champion - Koschei is held up as a cautionary tale of not merely holding steady to one's beliefs, but holding true to the right principles. It is taught that he alone among his monstrous brothers regrets his choices in life. Now, his soul and heart are consumed by a bitterness that renders him a plague to Mankind as that same bitterness manifests as a virulent disease that consumes all he approaches, forever denying him the hope of connection. 

 

The Misguided

 

Nomus Sardauk - The Inhuman, Purveyor of Knowledge, The Ghost in the Shell - Nomus, along with the other Suzerainty Primarchs, occupy an odd space among the Ecclesiarchy's teachings. Although once Traitors, the Suzerainty Primarchs escaped the Path of Damnation but aren't truly counted among the Blessed Sons. Nomus in particular is treated as the Sophmore, the 'Wise Fool'. It is said that he possesses most of the information in the entire galaxy, but doesn't truly know what to do with it. To be referred as a 'Nomus' means to be incredibly intelligent but lacking deeper wisdom. At worst, it is used as an insult for being blind to important truths.

 

The Jade General - The Warrior, The Inquisitive Lord, The Fallen One - While Nomus may represent the folly of not having wisdom, Jade is an example of intelligence put to poor use. Forever known as the Primarch who was slain by his own creation, it is through him that the Ecclessiarchy teaches temperance is important in the field of academics, not just life. Likewise, the Mechanicum too use the General as the reason why their ways involve thoroughness and caution.

 

Kozja Darzalas - The Ruler, Heir of Arrogance, The Reckless One - It is taught that Kozja's ultimately flaw was not his mind but his heart. Kozja is spoken that for all of his brilliance, he could not truly master his emotions. So, his emotions were the master of him and would cost him his body and leave him in a state of stasis for the length of existence. It is debated among some priests that Kozja may be restored to his former self if he were to surrender his arrogance and paid penance to the God-Emperor of Mankind.

 

Gwalchavad - The Two-Natured, The Masked One, The Traitor-in-Hiding - Out of all of the Primarchs who fought in service to the Imperium, only Gwalchavad is denied a place among the Blessed. This is due in no doubt to his seemingly last-minute decision to enter the Insurrection. As such, not even Icarion is subjected to more controversy and debate over the nature of Gwalchavad and the nature of his actions. In the worst light, he is a villain, an opportunistic warlord who waited until he knew which side would benefit him the most. In the best light, he is a mistaken knight, constantly trying to stand up for the right principles only to learn how poor his choices were until far later. For his detractors, the moral lesson typically revolves around integrity and transparency, to be honest toward your fellow Man. For his supporters, the lesson becomes the importance of recognizing one's nature. To war against one's own nature is to invite ruin.

 

[Also, between Azus and Yucahu, which would commit more war crimes and which would resist harder against the rising Imperial Cult?]

[bluntblade]

Jade could share Koschei's theme of zealotry for a misguided cause, as well as being bound up with those who created the Men of Iron. The authors of soulless life always damning themselves to destruction at the hands of their creations.

[MikhalLeNoir]

Gwal would answer: while daer'dd was killed and azus imprisoned I tasted the cold steel of Traviers blade as it cut my flesh and I was unable to do something about it. He killed my sons in the thousands. Ripped my most beloved solders apart as they were trying to safe me. And still I couldn't bring myself to raise my hand against my kin...my family. I am a man of many failures but now I am here, so will you yell at me or fight against that big burning daemon knocking the life out of your defenders?

[Sigismund229]

People talk about me and my brothers as if we are gods. We are not gods, we are human. Super human yes but still human. With many dreams and many failings.

 

I dreamed of peace. I bloodied my hands for it but that's all it was. A dream. It took me a long time to realise that. Even after Travier crippled my body and killed my sons by the tens of thousands I clung to the tattered shreds that remained of my dream and of my family. They are my brothers. I was forced to choose between my father and my brothers. I love both with all my heart and yet I now needed to choose one to support. I waited too long to decide.

 

I am now a traitor twice over and a coward. I waited, paralysed by the wreckage of my own family. Only once my dream was killed and buried, by both sides and my own sons, did I realise I could wait no longer. I had to choose. And I made the wrong choice. Not because of any crime committed by those defending Terra but for one simple reason: all sides were wrong.

-The Testimony of Gwalchavad

Edited February 17, 2017 by Sigismund229

[Kelborn]

Yeah, it's off topic. Who cares?

 

INFERNO IS READY FOR PRE-ORDER! REJOICE AND CELEBRATE OBLIVION! :DDDDD

Edited February 17, 2017 by Kelborn

[Nomus Sardauk]

Yeah, it's off topic. Who cares?

 

INFERNO IS READY FOR PRE-ORDER! REJOICE AND CELEBRATE OBLIVION! :DDDDD

DAMNIT KEL WE WERE ON A GRIMDARK ROLL HERE, GET YOUR JOYFUL EXCITEMENT AND HYPE OUTTA HERE.

[Kelborn]

Bit weird to call the annihilation of an entire civilization and its world an event of joyful excitement...damn, what happened to us? ^^

 

Sorry for interrupting Gwal's emo moment though.

 

Back to the Grimdark!

 

Been thinking about to let the Predators scavenge the worlds they had brought to compliance. Some sort of compensation for the losses the Predators might suffered, etc.

 

Bit like the Carcharodons do in the canon 'verse. Andezo and his sons were not made to reinstate order. They were made to trace and punish.  Though this can differ from tribe to tribe, for example would the Phantom Blades and the Ebonspears just take supplies, ammunitions, etc. while more ruthless tribes like the Black Conda or the Soul Eaters would also take their toll from the population. Its one way of differentiating between those tribes which will stay loyal and those which will become chaos-traitors and renegades.

 

Imagine a world during the Insurrection. Loyal to the throne, it was conquered by Icarions troops (let's say the Steel Legion). The Predators arrive and fend off the Steel Legion. The civilians rejoice their freedom just to be compelled into service by the Predators again.

Edited February 17, 2017 by Kelborn

[bluntblade]

Sounds more Carcharodons than anything else.

[Doctor Perils]

People talk about me and my brothers as if we are gods. We are not gods, we are human. Super human yes but still human. With many dreams and many failings.

 

I dreamed of peace. I bloodied my hands for it but that's all it was. A dream. It took me a long time to realise that. Even after Travier crippled my body and killed my sons by the tens of thousands I clung to the tattered shreds that remained of my dream and of my family. They are my brothers. I was forced to choose between my father and my brothers. I love both with all my heart and yet I now needed to choose one to support. I waited too long to decide.

 

I am now a traitor twice over and a coward. I waited, paralysed by the wreckage of my own family. Only once my dream was killed and buried, by both sides and my own sons, did I realise I could wait no longer. I had to choose. And I made the wrong choice. Not because of any crime committed by those defending Terra but for one simple reason: all sides were wrong.

-The Testimony of Gwalchavad

Hummm, a lot of the last paragraph seems unfair to gwal - others may see him as a coward, but I don't think he would judge himself as a coward. If others see his greatest failing being an opportunist, I think he himself would view his greatest failing in not sticking to his principles and not finding a pacifistic and diplomatic resolution to the insurrection earlier.

I think that gwal would *still* be an idealist, believing his dream to have been possible, yet now in tatters by his own fault and only his fault.

 

Also, emotions are weird: I believe Gwal would still love all his brothers, but in the same time, he would hate all of them too for having sparked the insurrection.

[Kelborn]

Indeed, you're right. Forgot about them. ^^"

 

Changed that.

[bluntblade]

I'd say it's more a matter of pacifism's ethical limits. Many - I have an idea for a scene with Alex - would say that Gwal has taken it far beyond any boundaries they recognise.

[MikhalLeNoir]

If interested, the jainism is what the pacifism draws on. Remember thst the Wardens were influenced by the wheel of time? Not from the stsrt but my whole thinking an conceptuation had always drawn on this. So the wardens are somehow the aiel, the jenn aiel and the tuata'an. Just for those who are interested^^

 

 

I like the testimony but i think thorn is right. You could add the fear aspect. He fears what will happen to his dreams/ ideals if he raises a hand against his brothers. What happens to him. I think i should write gwals upringing properly down so that you see where he comes from and maybe the reader understands why he is what he is.

[Sigismund229]

With the testimony, when I wrote "I am now a traitor twice over and a coward" I was meaning that to be what othzrs thought ofhim. Not what Gwal himself thinks.

 

Also, so far, while they're all interesting, Gwal, Koschei and K'awil have been the most interesting testimonies to write

[Kelborn]

Have you already written one for Andezo?

 

Can't remember it. ^^"

 

"Gwalchavad, the white knight, the one, who refused to fight

 

Andezo, the black death, the one, who betrayed us all

 

Curse them! They and their brood shall no longer be part of our Imperium!"

[Sigismund229]

Nope, he and Nomus are on my rather long to do list.

[TheBlindPrimarch]

 

That would definitely lend itself to one heck of a tragic story arc for Gwal. The Pacifist seeking to stand by his convictions but compelled to act by evidence he desperately wants to deny, only to be disgraced for failing to act sooner by those he loves most. It's makes for great story telling but I'm starting to see some writer's bias in the the feedback.

Please elaborate on what you see as "some writer's bias".

 

 

Sorry, had to cut the comment short because of work stuff...What I meant was that it seemed to me that the comments were more based on people disliking the idea of Gwal staying out of the Insurrection because of his ideology and less-so on developing the possible story arc. Having read the comments that followed I see that my perceptions were mistaken. I resend that part of my comment but the rest of it stands, I think Gwal is a perfect candidate for some heavy Grim-dark in the BotL universe.

[Sigismund229]

My eyes are blind, not me. I see with clarity unmatched by my brothers. They are blinded by this mortal realm, whereas I am free to see the world as it is. And what I see frightens me. The tides of the warp grow ever more violent and rise to the mortal realm more often than they used to. Yet I am the only who sees it besides father. The others remain blind, consumed by their intercine war, blind to the true war.

 

This is not just a war for the throne of Terra. This is a war for the fate of the universe. I have learned that over the years since the Insurrection began. Humanity is doomed, damned by its own desires, whether it is in few hundred years of tens of thousands. The universe can yet be saved. Yet to save the universe, I must sacrifice everything I hold dear. My loyalty. My soul. My sons.

 

Some already fight for the Stormborn. Others stand at my side in defence of Terra. Many will fight me when I announce my intentions. My legion will shatter like a pane of glass. I must pay that price. I know that now. I know what I must do.

-The Testimony of Andezo Sambedi

Edited February 17, 2017 by Sigismund229

[Skalpynock]

What a nice night to go on a walk...

- The Testimony of Niklaas

 

 

Jokes aside, @Simison, Yucahu's stance on the Imperial Cult is... particular. Halfway between the imperial Cult and Truth, he holds absolute loyalty to the word of the Emperor and the symbol of the Aquila. He spends the scouring listening to the Second Warmaster out of necessity, but the main reason he wanders off the Galaxy is because there's no Emperor left to serve. And Azus definitely the bigger offense to the Djinn-Vah Councillation.