8th Edition: Zeal Rising

[SCOTT_FRANCIS]

 

I may be being a little daft here but, did anyone see any points costs on the Rubric Marine Squad Datacard? There were "Power Cost" for the different number of Marines but no points cost for upgrades.

 

Are upgrades free now?

There is a more detailed cost system to matched play which features points for units and wargear.

 

 

Ah, I see, one of the many ways to play, thank you.

[Marshal Wolfhart]

I don't remember where it was said but I am 100% sure I saw it state that powerfist did extra damage... might have been on the wh40k facebook... idk.

It was stated in the big models teaser some days ago, that lascannons, melta and powerfists are among the most powerful weapons, so it should be safe to say that fists will get a proper profile, seeing how powerweapons got good value (AP -3 on swords ftw! for the ZEAL!). Or they will have to be equal in pts cost to powerweapons.

[...]

Twin-Linked High Rate of Fire will be the ones to worry about this edition... either Tau or Orks (if the Ork dice is feeling shooty )

I'd like to see Melee weapons though... I mean, I hope Powerfists and Thunder Hammers do more than just 1 Damage per Attack... those are pretty much close ranged Lascannons...

Considering twin linked firepower, we Templars (or Astartes in general) aren't short of that. Ancient brother Bohmond here with his 4 autocannons would like to have a word with you ;) Also Land Raiders, LasPredators, Razorbacks of all kinds all sport twinlinked weaponry. TL Hvy Flamers (read: 3 Heavy Flamers ) or Heavy Bolters might actually be worth it on Dreadnoughts. I really look forward to field my Dreads in all variants.

[Marshal_Roujakis]

I don't remember where it was said but I am 100% sure I saw it state that powerfist did extra damage... might have been on the wh40k facebook... idk.

It was stated in the big models teaser some days ago, that lascannons, melta and powerfists are among the most powerful weapons, so it should be safe to say that fists will get a proper profile, seeing how powerweapons got good value (AP -3 on swords ftw! for the ZEAL!). Or they will have to be equal in pts cost to powerweapons.

[...]

Twin-Linked High Rate of Fire will be the ones to worry about this edition... either Tau or Orks (if the Ork dice is feeling shooty )

I'd like to see Melee weapons though... I mean, I hope Powerfists and Thunder Hammers do more than just 1 Damage per Attack... those are pretty much close ranged Lascannons...

Considering twin linked firepower, we Templars (or Astartes in general) aren't short of that. Ancient brother Bohmond here with his 4 autocannons would like to have a word with you Also Land Raiders, LasPredators, Razorbacks of all kinds all sport twinlinked weaponry. TL Hvy Flamers (read: 3 Heavy Flamers ) or Heavy Bolters might actually be worth it on Dreadnoughts. I really look forward to field my Dreads in all variants.

Unless I'm doing this wrong... isn't Power Sword much worse against MEQ? the Wound table system pits it relatively the same, with the exception that unless your smacking a T8 it should be 5+ all the way... but in regards to AP... isn't it:

Sv - AP = new Sv?

so, 3+ - (-3) = 6+, which means MEQ will still get a 6+ save as oppose to none...

and also, if so, isn't it much better to use Power Weapons against TEQ instead?

2+ - (-3) = 5+ as opposed to just flat 2+ Sv against Swords?

... so looking at the new AP system... for MEQ it would be better to run around as MEQ vs MEQ would be a a bit longer than now unless someone runs away, while MEQ vs TEQ might actually see some Terminators die easier against Vanguard or Honour Guard with some decent Power Weapons...

So... melee is death for TEQ unless they hit first or their Invuln. Save is Good?

I guess it helps them against weapons that just flat out negate TEQ armour... but weapons that normally don't will kill them now easier too...

this 8th ed. is becoming a double edged sword...

[SCOTT_FRANCIS]

I don't remember where it was said but I am 100% sure I saw it state that powerfist did extra damage... might have been on the wh40k facebook... idk.

It was stated in the big models teaser some days ago, that lascannons, melta and powerfists are among the most powerful weapons, so it should be safe to say that fists will get a proper profile, seeing how powerweapons got good value (AP -3 on swords ftw! for the ZEAL!). Or they will have to be equal in pts cost to powerweapons.

[...]

Twin-Linked High Rate of Fire will be the ones to worry about this edition... either Tau or Orks (if the Ork dice is feeling shooty )

I'd like to see Melee weapons though... I mean, I hope Powerfists and Thunder Hammers do more than just 1 Damage per Attack... those are pretty much close ranged Lascannons...

Considering twin linked firepower, we Templars (or Astartes in general) aren't short of that. Ancient brother Bohmond here with his 4 autocannons would like to have a word with you Also Land Raiders, LasPredators, Razorbacks of all kinds all sport twinlinked weaponry. TL Hvy Flamers (read: 3 Heavy Flamers ) or Heavy Bolters might actually be worth it on Dreadnoughts. I really look forward to field my Dreads in all variants.

Unless I'm doing this wrong... isn't Power Sword much worse against MEQ? the Wound table system pits it relatively the same, with the exception that unless your smacking a T8 it should be 5+ all the way... but in regards to AP... isn't it:

Sv - AP = new Sv?

so, 3+ - (-3) = 6+, which means MEQ will still get a 6+ save as oppose to none...

and also, if so, isn't it much better to use Power Weapons against TEQ instead?

2+ - (-3) = 5+ as opposed to just flat 2+ Sv against Swords?

... so looking at the new AP system... for MEQ it would be better to run around as MEQ vs MEQ would be a a bit longer than now unless someone runs away, while MEQ vs TEQ might actually see some Terminators die easier against Vanguard or Honour Guard with some decent Power Weapons...

So... melee is death for TEQ unless they hit first or their Invuln. Save is Good?

I guess it helps them against weapons that just flat out negate TEQ armour... but weapons that normally don't will kill them now easier too...

this 8th ed. is becoming a double edged sword...

Termies have two wounds now to mitigate this?

[balordazul]

The issue I see is that GW is only giving small parts of the rules and just enough to give us a taste and we can only relate it to the old editions and what we already know of 8th.  But we also don't know points for example this is the best looking TS gw has ever done but without understanding the points and how they compare they could fit will into the new game well or be over pointed again.

 

As it relates right now shooting seems to be very strong and yes there are other armies that does long ranged twin linked better but we don't know the stats or points.  There is still a chance we might see more negative to hit modifiers for range. 

 

My point is we really don't have enough information and GW is doing a great job of getting the community hyped to even players that have walked away from the game.  This slow leak of rules and faction focus is an amazing PR ploy.  

[Marshal Wolfhart]

S4 vs T4 is 4+ to wound (as is now),

S4 vs T5-7 is 5+ to wound (strength lower than toughenss)

and S4 vs T8+ is 6+ to wound (double the toughness).

So yes, power swords are worse than 7th ed by 1/6 against MEQ as they get a 6+ save. But i think that AP modifiers of -3 will be rather rare and there is no more "oh pick the axe or mace as it's flat out better at the respective job than a sword."

[balordazul]

S4 vs T4 is 4+ to wound (as is now),

S4 vs T5-7 is 5+ to wound (strength lower than toughenss)

and S4 vs T8+ is 6+ to wound (double the toughness).

So yes, power swords are worse than 7th ed by 1/6 against MEQ as they get a 6+ save. But i think that AP modifiers of -3 will be rather rare and there is no more "oh pick the axe or mace as it's flat out better at the respective job than a sword."

I totally agree but look at the poor dreadnought as S4 will be a 5+ to wound and power weapons has a good chance of really messing them up.  I see the dread as a MoN CSM model with 8W now as all we need is a 5+ to wound and just a 3+ armor save. 

 

It is a bit early for me here to do the math as I'm still working on my coffee and taking care of my 5 month old baby but how does the math work out?  So what is better with the math based on the target of T8 based off the new power weapons?

[Marshal Wolfhart]

Tactical against Dreadnought (assuming 3 attacks on the charge):

Powersword (S. U, AP: -3): 3*1/2*1/3*5/6= 15/36=~0.42

Other power weapons get worse as you can't get to equal S/T and get worse AP.

Considering a Dread has 7 wounds it would take 16-17 powersword-wielding marines charging to take down a Dread with statistical reliability (for whatever that reliability is worth :P )

That's not too bad, considering meltabombs and krak grenades versus 3 hullpoints as is now.

[balordazul]

I think the dread is T7 W8 but we are also getting all the S. U base attacks and standard bolter fire.  

 

But has any models show up over T8 yet? (Leman Russ and Morkanaut) I think the key will be working out what has the better odds between MEQ, Deard and T8 models, or even working out what mix of weapons might be interesting.  

 

I'm taking a guess but I bet the Dread will be kind of close to a number of the light transports.  

 

---------------------

Interesting grav pistol for 7 points so about half of the old cost and that is about right as the old 15 points for plasma was a hold over from when they could fire twice.  Now all the way up to 27 points for a MM is cool as it is only a -1 to hit when moving and firing.  

 

So far to me at least it seems some thought has gone into this.  

[Acebaur]

Points article is up. Highlights are marines dropped to 13 points, grav pistol is 7 multi melta is 27.

 

Also I like that they said points won't be on data sheets so they can be rebalanced as needed without invalidating a publication.

[balordazul]

Points article is up. Highlights are marines dropped to 13 points, grav pistol is 7 multi melta is 27.

 

Also I like that they said points won't be on data sheets so they can be rebalanced as needed without invalidating a publication.

They also said they would be willing to update points if something is off but I'm asking to see if they will update data sheets if they completely miss the mark.

 

A: Warhammer 40,000 Great question. In the brave new world of New Games Workshop™, I reckon that would be a high priority.

[Marshal_Roujakis]

Gamer's patch updates... I kinda like it, with the slight irritance of if these datasheets are only electronically visible, then I'd have to buy an iPad or a bigger screened phone just to play without burning paper...

[Marshal Wolfhart]

In AoS there is a book for every faction containing all the datasheets (battletome iirc). It's to be expected they will release similar books for 40k. I don't know however if there is a precedence of these books becoming invalidated by the downloadable pdf...

[Ciler]

As far as I am concerned, the big information in this release is the fact that summons count toward an army's "point" value.

[balordazul]

If BT is getting another copy paste edition of bland Ward and JJ envisioning of BT we might be able to get the new GW to take another look at the 2005 codex to work out what made people interested in BT.

 

I'm still waiting for the other shoe to drop as the New GW is still freaking me out a little.  

[Canadian_F_H]

If BT is getting another copy paste edition of bland Ward and JJ envisioning of BT we might be able to get the new GW to take another look at the 2005 codex to work out what made people interested in BT.

 

I'm still waiting for the other shoe to drop as the New GW is still freaking me out a little.

Well... I hope they look at codex armageddon too... assault squads with up to 2 power weapons and up to 2 storm shields. We sort of had VGVETS before anybody in the vanilla Dex!

[The Spanish Inquisitor]

Aah so many stuff the vanilla marines stole from us ... 

 

We still don't know what rules the crusader squad will get, and what effect chainsword will have. That's the thing that worries me at this moment.

So far we had good news for LRC, characters and the fluffy play style. 

[Honda]

MORE PEOPLE WILL PLAY...

 

...THAT MEANS MORE OPPORTUNITIES TO CRUSADE...

 

...AND THAT MEANS UNCOVERING MORE WITCHES TO BURN.

 

WHAT MORE COULD A TEMPLAR ASK FOR?

[Marshal_Roujakis]

MORE PEOPLE WILL PLAY...

 

...THAT MEANS MORE OPPORTUNITIES TO CRUSADE...

 

...AND THAT MEANS UNCOVERING MORE WITCHES TO BURN.

 

WHAT MORE COULD A TEMPLAR ASK FOR?

 

Prometheum....

or a lot of extra firewood...

[BitsHammer]

 

MORE PEOPLE WILL PLAY...

 

...THAT MEANS MORE OPPORTUNITIES TO CRUSADE...

 

...AND THAT MEANS UNCOVERING MORE WITCHES TO BURN.

 

WHAT MORE COULD A TEMPLAR ASK FOR?

 

Prometheum....

or a lot of extra firewood...

 

I could use a tank that shoots swords instead of bullets to ride into battle as metal music plays too....

[The Spanish Inquisitor]

[balordazul]

I have a theoretical question.  If the new GW with a global testing team does BT a solid and gets us to a more thematic places that was embodied in the Armageddon book and the 2005 codex do you think we would see a lot of people coming back to BT?  Also would that be enough to get new players to try their hand at the crusade even if we don't get new BT themed models and the rules are ok without being over powered?

 

What would be that minimum threshold by GW to really reignite BT for the greater community.  Yes the majority of people on here eat zeali'Os in the morning and have never wavered but what would be that critical threshold?  

[Acebaur]

I have a theoretical question.  If the new GW with a global testing team does BT a solid and gets us to a more thematic places that was embodied in the Armageddon book and the 2005 codex do you think we would see a lot of people coming back to BT?  Also would that be enough to get new players to try their hand at the crusade even if we don't get new BT themed models and the rules are ok without being over powered?

 

What would be that minimum threshold by GW to really reignite BT for the greater community.  Yes the majority of people on here eat zeali'Os in the morning and have never wavered but what would be that critical threshold?  

 

 

As a veteran of these forums I can tell you that we've already seen a surge of new players joining the ranks of the Eternal Crusade. In the last few months I've noticed quite a few new neophytes starting up armies and asking questions about how to run this unit or that. That said you can definitely bet that if GW gives us great rules you will see a surge of players. 

 

 

Just looking at the strategems I already see a buff for us. Re-rolling dice. Failed that really important charge? Try again. Failed that armor/invul save on your important character on his last wound? Hit me again!  Sure it's only once per phase but as GW has changed the "Assault Phase" Into the Charge Phase and Fight Phase you can now do both in one turn if need be. 

[Knight of the Raven]

The minimum threshold will be much lower than that needed to bring back Iron Hands fans, that's what I can tell you. This part of the fandom is practically dead apart from a few exceptions clinging to life in the Age of Darkness. This could be only an impression though, since these fans don't yell "the flesh is weak" in silver letters everywhere and as such are a lot less noticeable.

 

I remember the updated lore being a sore point, but I also recall that some (several?) people liked it, so just from a background perspective, they'll irritate people if they roll back to the Black Templars' old ways and they'll do the same if they remain believers of the Emperor's divinity. I doubt mixing both points of view across the semi-independant crusades will please anyone.

[redmapa]

The main issue with the new fluff for me will always be the newfound love for psykers, erase that, give us our irrational hatred back and its all good.

 

The new stratagems do look great, it seems like a nice opportunity to bring back Vows maybe the EC gives you an extra Command Point + Stratagem.