Emperor's Spears covered by A D B

[Loesh]

I still love Primogenitor because it fleshed out my several year long head cannon that somewhere, really deep down, Fabius Biles still a Third Legionnaire and longs for those days. The fact the entire second half of the book goes into more detail about it and Slaanesh's influence on his life was just a little cherry on top.

Edited June 27, 2017 by Loesh

[A D-B]

I'm currently putting together lists for my Spears, and I keep coming back to wanting to know a tiny bit about their tendencies in combat. Are they aggressive or defensive? Should I look at a bike army, a pistol & sword assaults army, or lots of slow and steady guys with heavy bolters? Which of the bigger chapters with clearly defined areas of expertise do the Spears lean towards if any? I guess asking about which legion they are a successor chapter of would be to much...

 

I want to make a fluffy Emperor's Spears-army - and I don't want to buy lots of models I won't end up using after the book finally arrives!

 

Has anything been said or written about this by ADB?

 

Nothing you do should be directly compromised, don't worry. A few crests might be the wrong colour or whatever, but nothing fundamental to anyone's army will be negated in the novel. At least, I hope not. Chapters are big things, and various strike forces can focus on different specialities, so you should be fine.

 

The Spears have a very distinct flavour though, so I can't predict if you'll like that. The playlist gives a good idea of it, I suspect. 

 

 

I think they will be Raven Guard successors.

 

I am intrigued, sir. Do go on.

[Sete]

Would be interesting to see them as White Scars sucessors tbh.

[Dont-Be-Haten]

I'm currently putting together lists for my Spears, and I keep coming back to wanting to know a tiny bit about their tendencies in combat. Are they aggressive or defensive? Should I look at a bike army, a pistol & sword assaults army, or lots of slow and steady guys with heavy bolters? Which of the bigger chapters with clearly defined areas of expertise do the Spears lean towards if any? I guess asking about which legion they are a successor chapter of would be to much...

 

I want to make a fluffy Emperor's Spears-army - and I don't want to buy lots of models I won't end up using after the book finally arrives!

 

Has anything been said or written about this by ADB?

I think a good place to start would be to do the core of your army. Troops, Captain, etc.

 

For my interpretation, I'm going to have my spears be the primaris marines, so basically the Dark Imperium Box. Once A D-B fleshed out their core fighting style I can go from there. But for the time being they are going to be played as "rule-of-cool"

 

On the idea of what they are a successor to, i would really like a traitor gene seed. Perhaps because I have this romance with the last remnants of loyalists with traitor gene stock surviving the heresy, and their struggles finding themselves and flourishing in the name of the emperor.

 

Especially now that we know certain things about Dark Imperium.

 

But maybe that's something for me to explore with a DIY chapter.

 

I'm sure I will enjoy them in any case.

Edited June 27, 2017 by Dont-Be-Haten

[Iron Hands Fanatic]

 

I was originally hoping for Dorn, Guilliman or Corax, but after some thought and finding ADB's ES-playlist on YouTube I almost hope they'll be of space wolf stock... I have always dreamed of more civilised and wolfless viking marines without all the wolfwolfywolf noise!

 

On a related note, there was an internal email yeeeaaaars ago from the highest IP minds that mentioned the Wolves actually must have secretly had more Successors out there. That always interested me a lot; there are so many little touches like that which are "true", and considered "true" in the IP itself, but that never ever get brought into the light of day - and would be considered dead wrong if they were. 

 

The Carcharodons are a good example. They're barely even Imperial. They don't feed into any Imperial institutions or answer any Imperial hierarchy, even beyond the usual autonomy of the Adeptus Astartes. They don't even formally join the Deathwatch, though it's possible for an occasional grey-armoured Marine who says nothing about his past to show up at a Watch Station and take the Apocryphon Oath, mostly likely as a Blackshield. And in the middle of this discussion, I pointed out Publication X and Story Y where A, B, and C had happened, and the reaction from IP was:

 

"Sure, but that's wrong."

"But the fans think this because we've published it in the past."

"Yes. But it's wrong."

 

I love working in 40K. It's darkly fascinating.

 

 

I have to admit, some of the multitude of wonderful little tidbits seeded throughout FW's Heresy books that refer to obscure 40k stuff I absolutely love are those that suggest a different origin for a number of Chapters, namely Loyalist factions of Traitor Legions (including Blackshields) going on to form successor Chapters in the Second Founding, either obscuring their lineage or assumed to be Ultramarines successors - which goes to part way to explain why they have so many Successors at the Second Founding. It could be yet another excuse to dictate that "my Chapter is unique / special", but the fact that by the 41st Millennium most of these Chapters almost certainly won't actually know of their lineage re-frames it in a really interesting manner, and adds yet another fascinating aspect to the complicated web of politics that tie the different Chapters.   

[HeritorA]

I still love Primogenitor because it fleshed out my several year long head cannon that somewhere, really deep down, Fabius Biles still a Third Legionnaire and longs for those days. The fact the entire second half of the book goes into more detail about it and Slaanesh's influence on his life was just a little cherry on top.

And you are right to love that book - one of the best in the years. And the only one that got into the CSM psyche is on the scope as Aaron's NL/WB/WE novels.

[grailkeeper]

I think not knowing or not caring who their Primarch was might be more interesting. 

 

The benefits of knowing who their Primarch is that they have a load of cousin chapters who may aid them in their hour of need. (That's assuming they haven't pissed them off over some doctrinal clash or personality clashes, or duels, or possession of a relic of their Primarch, or stolen valour at some battle, or some failure to assist in the past, or because they broke some pact a thousand years ago in order to uuphold another pact with the mechanicus, or because they turned up late or not at all to a battle or because they spent too much protecting civilians, or they didn't protect civilians at all, or they were too bloody or not bloody enough or  any of the hundreds of other reasons loyalist chapters might not be on speaking terms). It also means that getting new Primaris Marines might be more straightforward.

 

The benefit of not knowing who their Primarch is on the other hand is that there is a completely clean slate. You can stick in any quirks or flaws or style you like from culture to gene seed. There is none of the weight of expectations that might apply to successors with a clear lineage. With a known Primarch you'll be handcuffed to a lot of baggage. Without one there'll never be some kind of strict calvinistically orthodox fanboy complaining that "Oh no- an Iron Hands successor chapter would never favour a hand to hand style in order to minimise collateral damage" or "White Scar successors can't specialise in  siege warfare because in a white dwarf from 1998 it said XYZ". There won't be any accusations of being a fanboy for any Primarch (well there might be, but they'll be more unfounded than usual). Plus with unknown chapters its always fun to speculate. 

 

Many, if not most chapters don't know who their Primarch is. A lot of things can get lost in 10 thousand years- humans only invented writing 5 thousand years ago. Chapters who don't know who their Primarch is will pose interesting challenges with the advancement of their story line. Will they get any old Primaris Marines or will they under go testing to see who should go to them? There are a lot of Primaris Marines waiting from different sources. That might be interesting to tie in to the chapters with suspect past who Iron Hands Fanatic mentioned- I hope so although ADB has come out against this trope before . We know Gulliman is trying to set up the first proper imperial history, after Millennia of lies, damn lies and Inquisition. Will these chapters help in this to find out more about themselves or to get reinforcements or will they refuse for reasons of their own? 

 

ADB is one of the most thorough writers, I'm sure he can probably give a detailed analysis of what the Emperors Spears ate for breakfast, so whatever Primarch he has chosen will have a solid reason behind it. Still though- unknown lineage could be a nice angle to take.

Edited June 27, 2017 by grailkeeper

[DukeLeto69]

Sorry not read every post so this may have been asked but...

 

ADB - when in the timeline is your ES book set? After, during or before Indomitus Crusade?

[HeritorA]

Sorry not read every post so this may have been asked but...

 

ADB - when in the timeline is your ES book set? After, during or before Indomitus Crusade?

Second the question, we are 10 pages in - it's hard to find a definite answer

[Mellow]

 

 

I think they will be Raven Guard successors.

I am intrigued, sir. Do go on.

Call it a terrible hunch but:

 

1) one of your links for reference was named Corvus Corax

 

2) the raven guard like feathers and you have mentioned the chapters love of head feathers

 

3) you don't like secretive secret snowflake chapters which would rule out a dark angels successor (even though they also used to have feathers) but the unforgiven generally "belong" to another author

 

4) the trident could represent a multi pronged attack or method of misdirection which the raven guard were (in my humble opinion) used to using as tactics

 

5) successors don't have to follow traits of their parent chapter and in many ways this can be less interesting as they become just a different coloured copy and paste of the first

[Vesper]

"It's not a trident, it's the raven's claw."

[Doghouse]

The one thing I would love to see addressed is the relationship between the old guard of Astartes and the newer Primaris marines. I know for the most part Chapters are generally just accepting these guys with open arms  but the differences in level of experience fascinate me.

 

I always loved the way Iacton Qruze was depicted in the first Heresy novels and there is part of me that wonders how the Primaris see their older brothers and vice versa, how they adapt to their newly assigned chapters or how the original members feel about the sudden swelling of the Chapter's ranks. I think there are some interesting conversations to be had about that and that it is explored in some way.

 

The approach I am taking with my Summoners is that the Chapter was as set for a beautiful death and then suddenly they are in a position where they find themselves almost handing their culture and history over to the new guys knowing the original guys will probably all be dead within a century. But on the other hand it'd be interesting to see how Chapters that are more accepting of the Primaris go about integrating them into their ranks and culture, if future recruits are made into Primaris, etc.

 

I'm hoping that it is covered in even just a paragraph so we don't get a throw away scenario of and then there were suddenly Primaris now lets move on. Even if an entire Chapter were replaced overnight it would be nice to see some acknowledgement for the deeds of those that came before them. A sense of history and legacy has always been an important part of Astartes culture to me.

[Loesh]

I would like to see that as well, especially when it comes to Primaris Reviers, would you trust that thing? it's basically a Night Lord.

[A D-B]

 

 

I think they will be Raven Guard successors.

I am intrigued, sir. Do go on.

Call it a terrible hunch but:

 

1) one of your links for reference was named Corvus Corax

 

2) the raven guard like feathers and you have mentioned the chapters love of head feathers

 

3) you don't like secretive secret snowflake chapters which would rule out a dark angels successor (even though they also used to have feathers) but the unforgiven generally "belong" to another author

 

4) the trident could represent a multi pronged attack or method of misdirection which the raven guard were (in my humble opinion) used to using as tactics

 

5) successors don't have to follow traits of their parent chapter and in many ways this can be less interesting as they become just a different coloured copy and paste of the first

 

 

Ha! Good post, I love it. Allow me to wax lyrical for a bit. 

 

1. The band Corvus Corax sings Neo-Medieval Metal and that song is about a Swedish king, so... the plot thickens, in a Space Wolfy direction. Or thins. I don't know, I just work here. But I wouldn't take that band name as any indication. There aren't many good folk metal / medieval metal bands, that's all.

 

2. They're helmet brushes, you knave. Not feathers. They're not Aztecs and Mayans, though that would be rad. Greek and Roman crests were horsehair.

 

3. Good point; yes and no. I don't like Chapters whose unique/secret origins make them "better", or who are dedicated alllllll the time to their mysterious origins to the point it informs their entire vibe. I'm fine with the Dark Angels and their Successors, but I dislike when they're entirely based around hunting the Fallen. I thought the Blood Ravens were great, but I hated the clumsy and endless references to "We're special loyalist Thousand Sons" and the unrealistic way Chaos characters paid so much attention to it. (And it's worth bearing in mind, I first disliked the latter because I was told by IP folks that it wasn't true. My dislike arose when I saw it getting closer and closer to a falsehood being 'confirmed', and it bugged me as cheap and clumsy.)

 

Chapters founded from Traitor/dubious gene-seed are fine, and fairly common in at least two (and now three?) Foundings. Chapters that bang on about it endlessly as their main/only interesting thing are tacky and are famously the go-to plot device of Little Tommy's First Homebrew Chapter, or licensees that don't really get the setting too well thinking it's a cool and dark origin for their own Chapter. (GW's IP department gets it allllll the time from people wanting to use the license. "Well, OUR Space Marine Chapter is founded from TRAITOR gene-seed! Cool, huh? Original, right?")

 

Here's a great comparison: If I suddenly said "Yeah, the Blood Ravens are loyalist Thousand Sons..." that's already the main thrust of the Chapter in the fandom, and it's a weird obsession loads of Chaos characters have with the Chapter for some reason (and, frankly, should be irrelevant in-universe, not this terrifying curse/mystery to them). Whereas if I said "The Minotaurs are founded from Iron Warrior gene-seed" that's practically the least interesting thing about them. They already have a wealth of character and atmosphere and background beyond it, it doesn't define them, it doesn't change anything about them, it doesn't change how anyone looks at them, and - again - it's realistically irrelevant in-universe. You don't have cutscenes of Abaddon and co. drooling over the Minotaurs as super-important and calling them "brothers..." and stuff, do you? Because that would be cheap and silly. The same thing with the Storm Wardens maybe being World Eater gene-stock. An excellent example of, if true, it making realistically no difference at all. 

 

4. That's very cool. I like that a lot.

 

5. Also true!

Edited June 29, 2017 by A D-B

[A D-B]

The one thing I would love to see addressed is the relationship between the old guard of Astartes and the newer Primaris marines. I know for the most part Chapters are generally just accepting these guys with open arms  but the differences in level of experience fascinate me.

 

I always loved the way Iacton Qruze was depicted in the first Heresy novels and there is part of me that wonders how the Primaris see their older brothers and vice versa, how they adapt to their newly assigned chapters or how the original members feel about the sudden swelling of the Chapter's ranks. I think there are some interesting conversations to be had about that and that it is explored in some way.

 

The approach I am taking with my Summoners is that the Chapter was as set for a beautiful death and then suddenly they are in a position where they find themselves almost handing their culture and history over to the new guys knowing the original guys will probably all be dead within a century. But on the other hand it'd be interesting to see how Chapters that are more accepting of the Primaris go about integrating them into their ranks and culture, if future recruits are made into Primaris, etc.

 

I'm hoping that it is covered in even just a paragraph so we don't get a throw away scenario of and then there were suddenly Primaris now lets move on. Even if an entire Chapter were replaced overnight it would be nice to see some acknowledgement for the deeds of those that came before them. A sense of history and legacy has always been an important part of Astartes culture to me.

 

On a personal note, I'm caught there. I don't know how much other people are already writing about it, and it stands to reason pretty much every Space Marine novel in the next 2-3 years will be full of that stuff. Do I approach it thinking I have something unique enough and interesting enough to make it worth saying, or do I risk everyone else already writing it and then just adding to the noise that people would actually get bored of if it became ubiquitous and repetitive? 

 

Every novel comes with these kinds of struggles, obviously. One of the struggles on this one is the plain issue that famous/named Chapters are already much, much more popular and well-received, and - crucially - entrenched in the context of the lore. It puts newer Chapters at a disadvantage, because many more people would rather hear about the A-listers we all know, or the famous (often savage/violent) B-listers like the Mantis Warriors, the Carcharodons, the Flesh Tearers, the Minotaurs, and so on. Those are guaranteed sales, guaranteed interest, and you can conversely be a lot freer in what kinds of things you put into the novel, because it'll automatically be well-received at the very least in terms of the context people have. To use your exact example: How the Mantis Warriors or Crimson Fists react to Primaris reinforcements is going to be much more interesting (and relevant) for most people than how New No-Name Chapter reacts to Primaris reinforcements. You know? 

 

So I'm hesitant and careful what I should include in any detail, given the likely fact so many more famous Chapter books will probably have that stuff in already. I tend to avoid "new" concepts, because most people write books in 4-5 months, and it takes me 8-19 months. The new lore is devoured, digested, and published long before my stuff hits the shelves. 

Edited June 29, 2017 by A D-B

[bluntblade]

Was that one of the appeals of tackling MoM, having the fairly sparse canvass of the Ten Thousand and the Mechanicum?

[Loesh]

 

The one thing I would love to see addressed is the relationship between the old guard of Astartes and the newer Primaris marines. I know for the most part Chapters are generally just accepting these guys with open arms  but the differences in level of experience fascinate me.

 

I always loved the way Iacton Qruze was depicted in the first Heresy novels and there is part of me that wonders how the Primaris see their older brothers and vice versa, how they adapt to their newly assigned chapters or how the original members feel about the sudden swelling of the Chapter's ranks. I think there are some interesting conversations to be had about that and that it is explored in some way.

 

The approach I am taking with my Summoners is that the Chapter was as set for a beautiful death and then suddenly they are in a position where they find themselves almost handing their culture and history over to the new guys knowing the original guys will probably all be dead within a century. But on the other hand it'd be interesting to see how Chapters that are more accepting of the Primaris go about integrating them into their ranks and culture, if future recruits are made into Primaris, etc.

 

I'm hoping that it is covered in even just a paragraph so we don't get a throw away scenario of and then there were suddenly Primaris now lets move on. Even if an entire Chapter were replaced overnight it would be nice to see some acknowledgement for the deeds of those that came before them. A sense of history and legacy has always been an important part of Astartes culture to me.

 

On a personal note, I'm caught there. I don't know how much other people are already writing about it, and it stands to reason pretty much every Space Marine novel in the next 2-3 years will be full of that stuff. Do I approach it thinking I have something unique enough and interesting enough to make it worth saying, or do I risk everyone else already writing it and then just adding to the noise that people would actually get bored of if it became ubiquitous and repetitive? 

 

Every novel comes with these kinds of struggles, obviously. One of the struggles on this one is the plain issue that famous/named Chapters are already much, much more popular and well-received, and - crucially - entrenched in the context of the lore. It puts newer Chapters at a disadvantage, because many more people would rather hear about the A-listers we all know, or the famous (often savage/violent) B-listers like the Mantis Warriors, the Carcharodons, the Flesh Tearers, the Minotaurs, and so on. Those are guaranteed sales, guaranteed interest, and you can conversely be a lot freer in what kinds of things you put into the novel, because it'll automatically be well-received at the very least in terms of the context people have. To use your exact example: How the Mantis Warriors or Crimson Fists react to Primaris reinforcements is going to be much more interesting (and relevant) for most people than how New No-Name Chapter reacts to Primaris reinforcements. You know? 

 

So I'm hesitant and careful what I should include in any detail, given the likely fact so many more famous Chapter books will probably have that stuff in already. I tend to avoid "new" concepts, because most people write books in 4-5 months, and it takes me 8-19 months. The new lore is devoured, digested, and published long before my stuff hits the shelves. 

 

 

Perhaps the key is not to tailor it around how the chapter in general react precisely because it's such a underrepresented chapter but instead tighten the focus on the Primaris's reaction to the chapter in question rather then vice versa. Maybe the Chapter has absolutely no problem with the Primaris, maybe they even embrace Primaris more then other chapters, but you can have a unique opportunity to explore the sort of 'fish out of water' angle not from a misunderstood(Or not so misunderstood depending on how you take the new lore.) fringe element of chapter, but just the simple adaption of customs and traditions. Maybe the Primaris build a fraternity of their own not necessarily because they think of their brothers as lesser, but because they need a place where they can pool their own thoughts and ideas.

 

Maybe the Primaris gets his own idea of what being a Mortificator/Angels Encarmine/Genesis/whatever chapter is and starts constructing a world view around that. At the most base level they might think because they have been propped up as the 'exemplars' and 'poster boys' of the Indomitus Crusade they gotta do everything twice as hard, with twice as much zeal, even though it might look like showboating to the rest of the chapter and they are just trying to fit in. Maybe they put their own little spin on every tradition they encounter and it makes their battle brothers quirk an eyebrow, not necessarily because it seems heretical but because it just seems strange to them.

 

With the exception of certain Legions and Chapters the Astartes are the ultimate example of soldier mentality, doing little things to build bonds and brotherhood, it's only natural that they add layers within layers to how they do things. The great part of this is even if someone else is exploring the concept of 'Primaris fitting in' in this way you can sort of wrap it around every chapter individually with it's own unique nuances in both interaction and how they do things.

[Guest pandion40]

3. Good point; yes and no. I don't like Chapters whose unique/secret origins make them "better", or who are dedicated alllllll the time to their mysterious origins to the point it informs their entire vibe. I'm fine with the Dark Angels and their Successors, but I dislike when they're entirely based around hunting the Fallen. I thought the Blood Ravens were great, but I hated the clumsy and endless references to "We're special loyalist Thousand Sons" and the unrealistic way Chaos characters paid so much attention to it. (And it's worth bearing in mind, I first disliked the latter because I was told by IP folks that it wasn't true. My dislike arose when I saw it getting closer and closer to a falsehood being 'confirmed', and it bugged me as cheap and clumsy.)

 

Chapters founded from Traitor/dubious gene-seed are fine, and fairly common in at least two (and now three?) Foundings. Chapters that bang on about it endlessly as their main/only interesting thing are tacky and are famously the go-to plot device of Little Tommy's First Homebrew Chapter, or licensees that don't really get the setting too well thinking it's a cool and dark origin for their own Chapter. (GW's IP department gets it allllll the time from people wanting to use the license. "Well, OUR Space Marine Chapter is founded from TRAITOR gene-seed! Cool, huh? Original, right?")

 

Here's a great comparison: If I suddenly said "Yeah, the Blood Ravens are loyalist Thousand Sons..." that's already the main thrust of the Chapter in the fandom, and it's a weird obsession loads of Chaos characters have with the Chapter for some reason (and, frankly, should be irrelevant in-universe, not this terrifying curse/mystery to them). Whereas if I said "The Minotaurs are founded from Iron Warrior gene-seed" that's practically the least interesting thing about them. They already have a wealth of character and atmosphere and background beyond it, it doesn't define them, it doesn't change anything about them, it doesn't change how anyone looks at them, and - again - it's realistically irrelevant in-universe. You don't have cutscenes of Abaddon and co. drooling over the Minotaurs as super-important and calling them "brothers..." and stuff, do you? Because that would be cheap and silly. The same thing with the Storm Wardens maybe being World Eater gene-stock. An excellent example of, if true, it making realistically no difference at all.

 

4. That's very cool. I like that a lot.

 

5. Also true!

I can agree with a lot of this, I like the Dark Angels but as soon as they laser focus in on a Fallen I loose a lot of my interest in them.

 

I on the other hand like the revelation of the Blood Ravens being Thousand Sons successors but only because it means the Thousand Sons legacy isn't dead, a fragment survived. So I guess I like what it adds to the Thousand Sons rather than the Blood Ravens themselves. The Blood Ravens always left me a bit cold, your words here helped me see part of the reason why I never warmed to them, I think this is partially a result of them being introduced in a video game.

 

Another reason they left me cold is I'm a big fan of warriors with a dual nature, some interest outside combat that unites them. The Thousand Sons were scholars and warriors, my favourites are the Blood Angels who are Artists and warriors. Even the ultramarines have the whole administrators and warriors thing. The Blood Ravens came over to me as a bog standard chapter with extra librarians, they didn't push the scholar side enough for me. Maybe I missed something though, I'm not a big RTS fan, and I struggled with the novels about them.

Edited June 29, 2017 by pandion40

[Doghouse]

On a personal note, I'm caught there. I don't know how much other people are already writing about it, and it stands to reason pretty much every Space Marine novel in the next 2-3 years will be full of that stuff. Do I approach it thinking I have something unique enough and interesting enough to make it worth saying, or do I risk everyone else already writing it and then just adding to the noise that people would actually get bored of if it became ubiquitous and repetitive? 

 

Every novel comes with these kinds of struggles, obviously. One of the struggles on this one is the plain issue that famous/named Chapters are already much, much more popular and well-received, and - crucially - entrenched in the context of the lore. It puts newer Chapters at a disadvantage, because many more people would rather hear about the A-listers we all know, or the famous (often savage/violent) B-listers like the Mantis Warriors, the Carcharodons, the Flesh Tearers, the Minotaurs, and so on. Those are guaranteed sales, guaranteed interest, and you can conversely be a lot freer in what kinds of things you put into the novel, because it'll automatically be well-received at the very least in terms of the context people have. To use your exact example: How the Mantis Warriors or Crimson Fists react to Primaris reinforcements is going to be much more interesting (and relevant) for most people than how New No-Name Chapter reacts to Primaris reinforcements. You know? 

 

So I'm hesitant and careful what I should include in any detail, given the likely fact so many more famous Chapter books will probably have that stuff in already. I tend to avoid "new" concepts, because most people write books in 4-5 months, and it takes me 8-19 months. The new lore is devoured, digested, and published long before my stuff hits the shelves. 

 

 

Yeah I completely get where you are coming from. Thanks for the insight that was very interesting.

[Draakur]

Given your concerns A D-B, are you saying you feel there won't be sufficient "B-listers" out there for you to write on in the future? Or are you only voicing this worry in the context of currently writing your book on the Spears?

[Iron Hands Fanatic]

 

The one thing I would love to see addressed is the relationship between the old guard of Astartes and the newer Primaris marines. I know for the most part Chapters are generally just accepting these guys with open arms  but the differences in level of experience fascinate me.

 

I always loved the way Iacton Qruze was depicted in the first Heresy novels and there is part of me that wonders how the Primaris see their older brothers and vice versa, how they adapt to their newly assigned chapters or how the original members feel about the sudden swelling of the Chapter's ranks. I think there are some interesting conversations to be had about that and that it is explored in some way.

 

The approach I am taking with my Summoners is that the Chapter was as set for a beautiful death and then suddenly they are in a position where they find themselves almost handing their culture and history over to the new guys knowing the original guys will probably all be dead within a century. But on the other hand it'd be interesting to see how Chapters that are more accepting of the Primaris go about integrating them into their ranks and culture, if future recruits are made into Primaris, etc.

 

I'm hoping that it is covered in even just a paragraph so we don't get a throw away scenario of and then there were suddenly Primaris now lets move on. Even if an entire Chapter were replaced overnight it would be nice to see some acknowledgement for the deeds of those that came before them. A sense of history and legacy has always been an important part of Astartes culture to me.

 

On a personal note, I'm caught there. I don't know how much other people are already writing about it, and it stands to reason pretty much every Space Marine novel in the next 2-3 years will be full of that stuff. Do I approach it thinking I have something unique enough and interesting enough to make it worth saying, or do I risk everyone else already writing it and then just adding to the noise that people would actually get bored of if it became ubiquitous and repetitive? 

 

Every novel comes with these kinds of struggles, obviously. One of the struggles on this one is the plain issue that famous/named Chapters are already much, much more popular and well-received, and - crucially - entrenched in the context of the lore. It puts newer Chapters at a disadvantage, because many more people would rather hear about the A-listers we all know, or the famous (often savage/violent) B-listers like the Mantis Warriors, the Carcharodons, the Flesh Tearers, the Minotaurs, and so on. Those are guaranteed sales, guaranteed interest, and you can conversely be a lot freer in what kinds of things you put into the novel, because it'll automatically be well-received at the very least in terms of the context people have. To use your exact example: How the Mantis Warriors or Crimson Fists react to Primaris reinforcements is going to be much more interesting (and relevant) for most people than how New No-Name Chapter reacts to Primaris reinforcements. You know? 

 

So I'm hesitant and careful what I should include in any detail, given the likely fact so many more famous Chapter books will probably have that stuff in already. I tend to avoid "new" concepts, because most people write books in 4-5 months, and it takes me 8-19 months. The new lore is devoured, digested, and published long before my stuff hits the shelves. 

 

 

Huh, I hadn't thought about it like that. To be honest, I think that because the chapter's an entirely clean slate, with no-one coming at the book with preconceptions about their traditions, battle record or interactions with other Imperial factions, leaving out how the Primaris Marines have integrated would seem like a strange absence. I mean, presumably you'll be informing us about the Chapter's whole character (although with considerably more nuance and subtlety than that sounds), and with the novel set around the Dark Millenium with the Chapter containing Primaris Marines, avoiding that question might make the absence a bit conspicuous.

 

I get  where you're coming from with regard to how much people want that stuff with regard to the really well known Chapters, but part of that is because of their unique traits, and how much they often differ from their counterparts. I'd never suggest using the Emperor's Spears as an example of how 'normal' Chapters have integrated the Primaris Marines, but it could be a good indicator of how it might happen for a Chapter without the political clout of the First Founding Chapters - if they petitioned for Primaris reinforcements due to recent losses, how would their notoriety (or lack of it) effect the expediency or extent of reinforcement they'd receive - on the flip side, if they were less than keen, could their position within the Imperial political scene be threatened - would there be a black mark against their name for their reluctance?

 

Maybe I'm overstating it because of my particular interest when it comes to Black Library books - I'm far more interested in the stuff that happens away from the battlefield - the philosophical moments, characterisation & character interaction grips me far more than another ork getting it's head ripped off (obviously it's not that simple, and well-written battle scenes can be awesome, I just tend to be of the opinion that less is more). I get that it could be seen as a little on-the-nose, but I think subtext would be enough to appease eager readers - having perspectives from both Primaris and non-Primaris marines, and exploring the different ways they view each other / the chapter / the Imperium at large would be a great way of doing it without specifically delving into the nitty-gritty. Hell, having non-Primaris marines with differing viewpoints on the matter could effectively be a way of exploring it from both directions without necessarily having to tie down the Chapter to one particular mindset - with unreliable narrators and our tendency to recall events in alignment to our own viewpoints, you could effectively paint different versions on how they were integrated.

 

On a side note, I totally get what you mean with regard to Loyalist Chapters with Traitor geneseed, and how it can often be a crutch for Chapters that are otherwise poorly characterised. I'm kind of conflicted about this, because with 8th Ed I've been considering painting a few 40k Marines, and I wanted to explore the Astartes Praeses - in particular the Brothers Penitent. I absolutely adore the pre-Heresy Word Bearers' colour scheme and I'd really like to adapt it for the Brothers Penitent, which lead me towards the possible idea that they could have been formed from a force that included Loyalist Word Bearers (probably as part of a Blackshields force), although to all intents and purposes, they'd just be of unknown progeny. My initial reaction was to dismiss it for the reason above, but I kinda love the way 'Brothers Penitent' ties into the Word Bearers' religious nature, along with my head-canon that the Astartes Praeses Chapters being 20 in number being an obscure reference to the original 20 Legions - like their ghosts are guarding / hiding their greatest shame in the Eye.

Edited June 29, 2017 by Iron Hands Fanatic

[DarKnight]

Love the point Aaron made about so many of the stories of each chapter's central conceit being regurgitated ad nauseam. Codex Astartes, Red Thirst/Black Rage, The Fallen etc. It's a big universe guys. 

[Marshal Rohr]

The best way to handle to Primaris upgrade is to leave it way in the past. Everyone's a Primaris now and you just never mention it. That way, narratively, there is no break between old marines and new marines. It just sounds like there was a reorganization which is how the layman would see it. They won't know about Cawl or what the difference is if they were never aware of marines in the first place.

[A D-B]

A lot of really great food for thought here, guys and gals. I appreciate your insight.

 

 

Given your concerns A D-B, are you saying you feel there won't be sufficient "B-listers" out there for you to write on in the future? Or are you only voicing this worry in the context of currently writing your book on the Spears?

 

Oh, no. Definitely not. There'll always be B-listers to write about, and it was very much my decision to go with a C-lister this time. I have ideas for Carcharodons, Minotaurs, and Crimson Fists novels myself, though I doubt many of them would ever come to pass. But novels about A-listers and B-listers, by their very nature, have a different expectation of focus, and far different options on what you can focus on. 

 

 

 

On a side note, I totally get what you mean with regard to Loyalist Chapters with Traitor geneseed, and how it can often be a crutch for Chapters that are otherwise poorly characterised. I'm kind of conflicted about this, because with 8th Ed I've been considering painting a few 40k Marines, and I wanted to explore the Astartes Praeses - in particular the Brothers Penitent. I absolutely adore the pre-Heresy Word Bearers' colour scheme and I'd really like to adapt it for the Brothers Penitent, which lead me towards the possible idea that they could have been formed from a force that included Loyalist Word Bearers (probably as part of a Blackshields force), although to all intents and purposes, they'd just be of unknown progeny. My initial reaction was to dismiss it for the reason above, but I kinda love the way 'Brothers Penitent' ties into the Word Bearers' religious nature, along with my head-canon that the Astartes Praeses Chapters being 20 in number being an obscure reference to the original 20 Legions - like their ghosts are guarding / hiding their greatest shame in the Eye.

 

 

This is a brilliant example. And it's a brilliant example of it working well, and working realistically. It's subtle, believable, and real. It's not only what could happen, you can guarantee that it's pretty much the exact kind of thing that did happen in the chaotic mess of the Scouring.

 

But if Abaddon and several powerful Chaos characters started chasing these guys endlessly, implying their origins were unique and somehow made them a prime target for Chaos, and were desperate to turn them to the Red Team, then you'd lose my enthusiasm. 

 

It's all about context and realism, not the naked facts of the trope itself. The trope's fine. The trope's not even a big deal. It's how it's handled sometimes that I tend to cringe at.

 

 

Love the point Aaron made about so many of the stories of each chapter's central conceit being regurgitated ad nauseam. Codex Astartes, Red Thirst/Black Rage, The Fallen etc. It's a big universe guys. 

 

It's tough to balance.

 

Most readers want that stuff, and they enjoy that focus. If you ignore it, you can come across as not understanding the Chapter's tenets or atmosphere. You may also not be aware of what other authors have dealt with it already, or just believe (probably accurately) that you can offer a fresh take, so that might be a reason to focus on it instead. So there's a balance and no right or wrong answer, really. 

 

Or maybe I just over-analyse. Everyone who I talk to during the process of planning and writing and editing every novel says I do, and the last page or two of this thread is a fair example of how I overthink even the smallest things. See also: why I miss deadlines in favour of endless rewrites. 

 

 

The best way to handle to Primaris upgrade is to leave it way in the past. Everyone's a Primaris now and you just never mention it. That way, narratively, there is no break between old marines and new marines. It just sounds like there was a reorganization which is how the layman would see it. They won't know about Cawl or what the difference is if they were never aware of marines in the first place.

 

That's probably true. But it comes with a huge BUT!, nailed down in context. Primaris are the new hotness, and on everyone's mind. They want stories about them, and how they interact with the old/classic Space Marines, and so on. Which is all totally understandable. And my initial instinct when I first heard about Primaris Marines ages ago was the same: "Oh, man, the stories I can tell with all this baked-in conflict; what would it be like inside a Chapter going through the process!?"

 

So I don't begrudge anyone wanting to see more of it, especially as they're very much still the new hotness for most folks. At the same time though, I've found my interest in that dynamic waning, partly because I'm sure other people will deal with endlessly before me, partly because Primaris Marines are way less New Hotness to me having had them on my hard drive for about a year or something, partly because it's in my nature to avoid huge current lore more often than not in favour of classic lore from past editions, and partly because Spear of the Emperor has evolved into a very different book than I first imagined. (No shock there, they always do.)

 

There's a significant outsider-looking-in aspect to Spear, regarding the main character and his innate conflicts with other characters, and it's one that's evolved to replace much of the Primaris/Classic Marine conflict as time has gone on. Originally, the freaking point of Spear was the first Primaris Marines of a Chapter integrating with their classic fellows. It's now miles and miles from that. If you'd said that to me at the start of the novel, that it would change so much from the original angle, I'd have been horrified. Now I think it's far less interesting than the conflict that emerged in its place. I started with a generic idea I wanted to present as well as I could, now I'm finding myself with characters and a story.

 

Like, I'm not saying I'd never mention it, but it's not the focus. I understand why people want that to be the focus of novels, and I'm sure it will be. But it's not something that takes up significant time or headspace with the characters in Spear of the Emperor. They have other, more relevant, way more urgent concerns. And it's set at a point that I don't think it'll be conspicuous by its absence. Again, what's the new hotness to the readerships right now may not apply to people in the setting after X decades or at Y point in time. 

 

I have to be vague, obviously, but there's some verrrrrrrry prominent Rogue Trader Space Marine lore in this one. I went backwards, lore-wise, not forwards. (Again, probably not a surprise to anyone that knows my work.)

[Apothecary Vaddon]

half eldar attache to emperor's spears as librarian confirmed