Emperor's Spears covered by A D B

[Iron Hands Fanatic]

Me, an apathetic forum-dweller: 'ughhh, I'm so tired of this tedious topic constantly popping up whenever A D-B's books are mentioned'

 

Also me, a queer feminist: 'I will fight ANYONE on this topic - if this is the hill I die on, so be it'

 

 

 

(Incidentally, I've never had a female main character / primary protagonist, in 12 novels . So... uh... not a great point there.)

 

 

I know you tend to write novels with Space Marine protagonists (or variations thereof), but have you ever had any ideas for books in which the main character is a woman - as you've stated, there's plenty of opportunities in-universe - or are the myriad themes & story lines inherent in the background of the Astartes just too tempting? I seem to remember something about a Romeo & Juliet -esque 'forbidden romance' novel set in Commoragh?

[Loesh]

Does that end with someone mailing a person a black hole in a gift box?

[Karthak]

 

Let's be honest.

 

The main character of this book will be a Human Female... as it always is with ADB

 

LOL

 

I was waiting for a comment like that, by the way. You jest (I... hope...) but it matches the more moronic chain of thought that points out every book that has a Space Marine interacting with a non-Marine female character, ignoring all the other non-Marine male characters. Talos had Octavia, they say. Yes, he did. And he had Septimus, who he was both closer to and more violent with. But no, it's just Octavia, apparently. Grimaldus had Zarha. Yeah, as well as Andrej. Nope, though. Just Zarha because LOL GIRLS LOL. Khayon has Nefertari. Does he? A character he barely shares any dialogue with, among several other male and female characters, but no, it's LOL GIRLS LOL. Or is it one of the several others? Y'know, the ones he barely talks to, anyway. 

 

The only pattern here is that there are females in most of my books, and they interact with the protagonist - just like the males do. I don't mean to alarm anyone, but that's being true to the setting. That's how it would be.

 

I've spent endless words on this in the past, (and if you read all of that and still argue, then I fear for your sanity), but do you honestly, really know what it is? You can't win. No matter what. Despite completely different relationships with male and female non-Marines, it's the presence of female non-Marines that gets these stupid comments. Not all the male non-Marines. The protagonists have just as varied and complex relationships with the male non-Marines, but nope, forget that. LOL GIRLS LOL. There's no way around it - the female characters can be BFFs or hate the main character, and no two of them will even be remotely alike, but you still get the comments.

 

I've had my editors and test readers comb the text about this. None of them see it. It never comes up in any real reviews. It's always just certain people on forums, with certain tones. 

 

If I make all the non-Marine characters male, that's weird and unrealistic. If I make any one of them female - not all, not even half, but any single one - and she interacts with the Space Marines in any detail - positive or negative, no matter how - it becomes this imaginary trope. Do you understand how there's zero room to move there? How unrealistic the limitations are, and how the trope is nonsense?

 

I'm now at a point where I'm second-guessing ever putting a female in ever, in any situation where they interact in any detail with the protagonist, despite the fact it's unrealistic leave them out, just because I'm so sick of these ludicrous comments. (The weird thing is that there aren't even that many of them, but like a tick, they keep burrowing in.)

 

There are women in 40K. They have a variety of relationships with various protagonists. Some are hostile. Some lie. Some are close. Some aren't. Some are just there. Some influence events.  Grow up and deal with it. You're reacting to main characters interacting with any females and ascribing weird emphasis to it, and that says a lot more about you than me. 

 

I'll put it another way. There are, for example, three non-Marine roles for meaningful characters in Book X. Their genders are meaningless. All three interact with the main character in some way, hopefully meaningfully. Now... you make any one of them female, and you get these comments. It doesn't matter that the other two are male. They'll get glossed over, and the female one will be focused on - whether she's human, cyborg, eldar, whatever; whether she's an enemy, a liar, a best pal, no matter what she does.  You roll a dice and it comes up evens for female and odds for male, you get these comments. So... what? You make all three characters male, to head off any stupid remarks, only to be presenting the setting painfully unrealistically. 40K isn't sexist. That means there'd be women at about a 50-50 level in pretty much all non-Marine jobs. Sorry. That's just the deal, here. Mechanicus adepts? Navy officers? Chapter thralls? Titan crews? 50% women. Sorry.

 

Wonder if this type of "girls are icky" nonsense would improve or get worse if GW finally bit the bullet and made female Space Marines canon (wouldn't even have to retcon anything - just present it as Cawl's latest brainwave).

[WarriorFish]

Let's try to stay on topic please, with tidbits being released on the story people don't want to be reading arguments and played out jokes. If you want to fight on a hill, make sure it's the one called "B&C's rules"

[Doctor Perils]

Because it seems the message didn't get across, I'll try putting it in bold...

Let's try to stay on topic please, with tidbits being released on the story people don't want to be reading arguments and played out jokes. If you want to fight on a hill, make sure it's the one called "B&C's rules"

Edited September 7, 2017 by Lord Thørn

[A D-B]

ADB just posted this to his Facebook. Looks like the main character is a thrall assigned to a Primaris Marine.

 

I missed that post. Indeed so, dearest Keeper of Grails.

[grailkeeper]

 

ADB just posted this to his Facebook. Looks like the main character is a thrall assigned to a Primaris Marine.

 

I missed that post. Indeed so, dearest Keeper of Grails.

 

 

Will the story focus more on him- like Defel in the Winter King and Khayon, or will it focus on the Marine he follows like Tiro and Cicero in the Imperium novels by Robert Harris?

[A D-B]

 

 

ADB just posted this to his Facebook. Looks like the main character is a thrall assigned to a Primaris Marine.

 

I missed that post. Indeed so, dearest Keeper of Grails.

 

 

Will the story focus more on him- like Defel in the Winter King and Khayon, or will it focus on the Marine he follows like Tiro and Cicero in the Imperium novels by Robert Harris?

 

Insightful question, dude. The latter. Very specifically the latter.

 

If you picture Khayon's focus being on his life first and foremost, the Black Legion second, and then Abaddon third. Like you said, that matches Derfel's tale in The Winter King, where he focuses on his life story first, Celtic life and the Saxon Wars second, and then King Arthur third.

 

Opposite that would be something like Gates of Fire, where Xeones focuses much more on the Spartans, Spartan culture, and Thermopylae, and his own life story is in the background as context. [insert Thrall name's] focus is on Amadeus, the Spears, and Nemeton, with her life as a distant third, in much the same way as Xeones talked about the Spartans.

 

I never enjoy writing any book, but there are always one or two things that shine through the process. One of the joys of this novel has been a first-person perspective that sounds nothing like Khayon, and focuses on entirely different things.

Edited September 17, 2017 by A D-B

[HeritorA]

A D-B

Will we have some 'hints' to  The Winter King in the Emperor's Spears?

And by the way - did you given permission for Matthew to kill your lovely 'enforcer' for the Blood Pact you created for the Sabbat Crusade?

Edited September 18, 2017 by WarriorFish
Spoiler tag added

[Phoebus]

Spoilers?...

[Marshal Rohr]

 

 

 

 

 

 

ADB just posted this to his Facebook. Looks like the main character is a thrall assigned to a Primaris Marine.

I missed that post. Indeed so, dearest Keeper of Grails.

Will the story focus more on him- like Defel in the Winter King and Khayon, or will it focus on the Marine he follows like Tiro and Cicero in the Imperium novels by Robert Harris?

Insightful question, dude. The latter. Very specifically the latter.

 

If you picture Khayon's focus being on his life first and foremost, the Black Legion second, and then Abaddon third. Like you said, that matches Derfel's tale in The Winter King, where he focuses on his life story first, Celtic life and the Saxon Wars second, and then King Arthur third.

 

Opposite that would be something like Gates of Fire, where Xeones focuses much more on the Spartans, Spartan culture, and Thermopylae, and his own life story is in the background as context. [insert Thrall name's] focus is on Amadeus, the Spears, and Nemeton, with her life as a distant third, in much the same way as Xeones talked about the Spartans.

 

I never enjoy writing any book, but there are always one or two things that shine through the process. One of the joys of this novel has been a first-person perspective that sounds nothing like Khayon, and focuses on entirely different things.

No trying to be critical: why do you reference Gates of Fire so much? Is that like a baseline for professional work references among fiction writers in military genres? Is it more like a formative novel that you read when younger and it shaped your view of literature? Once an Eagle did that for me. Genuinely curious because it gets mentioned pretty frequently.

[A D-B]

 

 

 

 

ADB just posted this to his Facebook. Looks like the main character is a thrall assigned to a Primaris Marine.

I missed that post. Indeed so, dearest Keeper of Grails.

Will the story focus more on him- like Defel in the Winter King and Khayon, or will it focus on the Marine he follows like Tiro and Cicero in the Imperium novels by Robert Harris?

Insightful question, dude. The latter. Very specifically the latter.

 

If you picture Khayon's focus being on his life first and foremost, the Black Legion second, and then Abaddon third. Like you said, that matches Derfel's tale in The Winter King, where he focuses on his life story first, Celtic life and the Saxon Wars second, and then King Arthur third.

 

Opposite that would be something like Gates of Fire, where Xeones focuses much more on the Spartans, Spartan culture, and Thermopylae, and his own life story is in the background as context. [insert Thrall name's] focus is on Amadeus, the Spears, and Nemeton, with her life as a distant third, in much the same way as Xeones talked about the Spartans.

 

I never enjoy writing any book, but there are always one or two things that shine through the process. One of the joys of this novel has been a first-person perspective that sounds nothing like Khayon, and focuses on entirely different things.

No trying to be critical: why do you reference Gates of Fire so much? Is that like a baseline for professional work references among fiction writers in military genres?

 

Pretty much that, yeah. It's not even my fave historical fiction, but it's a masterpiece and has a style and form that gets referred to a fair bit. You don't copy it - no one could copy that with any grace and they're wasting their time if they try - but it sets a standard to refer to in conversation, in terms of tone and perspective: it's the famous book about the Spartans that has a narrator who isn't a Spartan, and so on. Lots of historical fiction does it, but Gates of Fire is the famous one.

 

It's like the Watchmen of historical fiction in some ways. Plenty of other superhero comics / graphic novels / movies deal with the idea of gritty and realistic superheroes, some arguably(!) better, but you can't have a conversation about the subject without bringing up Watchmen a whole bunch of times. It's the touchstone most people will know, and set a lot of the standards if not all of the core ideas. 

Edited September 18, 2017 by A D-B

[Kelborn]

A D-B, may I ask you something?

 

As you are referring to Gates of Fire and Spartan related stuff, do you have other decent sources for writing about / creating a Greek themed chapter in mind?

 

Trying to gather a bunch of good sources to work with and it would be cool to hear your thoughts about it. :)

[A D-B]

A D-B, may I ask you something?

 

As you are referring to Gates of Fire and Spartan related stuff, do you have other decent sources for writing about / creating a Greek themed chapter in mind?

 

Trying to gather a bunch of good sources to work with and it would be cool to hear your thoughts about it.

 

Interestingly(?), that's something I'd personally avoid, since Dan did it in Brothers of the Snake. When people ask if the Spears are a Greek-themed Chapter on a water planet that hunt sea serpents with tridents, I kind of have to shrug and say "Well, no, because... the Iron Snakes are a Greek-themed Chapter on a water planet that hunts sea serpents with spears."

 

But for the sake of your own research: The Last Amazon, Tides of War, Alexander: Virtues of War, and The Afghan Campaign are all solid gold by the author of Gates of Fire.

 

See also: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fiction_set_in_ancient_Greece

Edited September 18, 2017 by A D-B

[Kelborn]

Thank you. Appreciate your input.

 

I do see your point but I'm tempted to say that ancient Greece has more to offer than tridents, water and the likes. :)

If the Iron Snakes would be the Odyssey, I'm trying to do something like Herakles or the Iliad.

 

Though Dan's Brothers of the Snake is one of my all-time favorites, I'll take it as an example for things I'd like to avoid.

 

It's basically more focusing on land based war, including tanks, infantry assaults, sieges and the likes. Basement will be a Blackshield force which once belonged to the Iron Warriors.

[A D-B]

Thank you. Appreciate your input.

 

I do see your point but I'm tempted to say that ancient Greece has more to offer than tridents, water and the likes.

If the Iron Snakes would be the Odyssey, I'm trying to do something like Herakles or the Iliad.

 

Oh, yeah, I completely agree. There's a world of Grecian stuff to go with. I just meant personally re: the Spears. A lot of the Qs on social media have been asking how Greek/Atlantis/Trident-ish I'd go with them, and the answer has usually been "Not much, Dan did that already."

[Kelborn]

Ah ok, got your point.

 

Tbh I initially thought as well that you'd go an Greek / Atlantis route. The chapter's symbol mislead a lot before you started to clarify what you'd like to do with them. It just looks like Poseidon's trident.

 

That's why I'm eager to read this. I'm not familiar with the Gaelic culture and all the stuff you've took as source of inspiration. Very curious of how it will turn out in the end.

 

By the way, is it intended to be a standalone book like The Emperor's Gift or is it more like Rob's Red Tithe - "let us see how it will be received and then decide if we want to continue it"?

 

Another point I'd like to ask (bit off topic, sorry): The author, you suggested, Steven Pressfield did some, let's say "Get some  done" books. Are you familiar with this work as well?

Edited September 18, 2017 by WarriorFish
Sweat filter dodge removed

[HeritorA]

Spoilers?...

 

Phoebus - that was a question to the Sabbat Worlds story by A D-B which does not have anything to spoil, cause it's a question if A D-B as A WRITER has given permission to Farrer  (as a writer) who is writing 'Urdesh' novel to kill one of his characters?

Event not happened - WHY SPOILER TAG?

 

 

A D-B, may I ask you something?

 

As you are referring to Gates of Fire and Spartan related stuff, do you have other decent sources for writing about / creating a Greek themed chapter in mind?

 

Trying to gather a bunch of good sources to work with and it would be cool to hear your thoughts about it.

 

Interestingly(?), that's something I'd personally avoid, since Dan did it in Brothers of the Snake. When people ask if the Spears are a Greek-themed Chapter on a water planet that hunt sea serpents with tridents, I kind of have to shrug and say "Well, no, because... the Iron Snakes are a Greek-themed Chapter on a water planet that hunts sea serpents with spears."

 

But for the sake of your own research: The Last Amazon, Tides of War, Alexander: Virtues of War, and The Afghan Campaign are all solid gold by the author of Gates of Fire.

 

See also: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fiction_set_in_ancient_Greece

 

 

Nice touch. Did you read Tides of War fully? And what is your opinion on the Roman influence on the late Greek culture after the Caesar? Will that have influence on the Spears writing process?

 

Also I seconded Kelborn question - 'By the way, is it intended to be a standalone book like The Emperor's Gift or is it more like Rob's Red Tithe - "let us see how it will be received and then decide if we want to continue it"?' (Not from the point of the overpowered SW you used for it - but that's another matter. But I'm curious about GK experience - one in particular   )

[Thurservor]

Due to being a huge fan of ADB's work I got the idea of Emperors Spears as an insipiration to one of my Shadowwar Armageddon Night Lords models:

 

tribute to the upcoming book of sorts:

 

He obviously got harvested 

Edited September 20, 2017 by Thurservor

[Phoebus]

HeritorA, the way you phrased the statement I was replying to, it was hard to tell whether or not it was hypothetical or something already decided.

[HeritorA]

HeritorA, the way you phrased the statement I was replying to, it was hard to tell whether or not it was hypothetical or something already decided.

I see.  It is a question about simple corraboration. My bad.

But still hope A D-B will answer eventually then he would relax after the High Lords meeting :)

[A D-B]

Due to being a huge fan of ADB's work I got the idea of Emperors Spears as an insipiration to one of my Shadowwar Armageddon Night Lords models:

 

tribute to the upcoming book of sorts:

 

He obviously got harvested 

 

Awwwww, yes. J'adore.

[HeritorA]

 

Due to being a huge fan of ADB's work I got the idea of Emperors Spears as an insipiration to one of my Shadowwar Armageddon Night Lords models:

 

tribute to the upcoming book of sorts:

 

He obviously got harvested 

 

Awwwww, yes. J'adore.

 

A D-B sorry to disturb. You do hate me it seems But I know you got the Lion or Sanguinius to write ;)

 

1) Have you given permission for Matthew to kill your lovely 'enforcer' for the Blood Pact you created for the Sabbat Crusade? Who is a WE if I remember correctly?

2) Also I seconded Kelborn question - 'By the way, is it intended to be a standalone book like The Emperor's Gift or is it more like Rob's Red Tithe - "let us see how it will be received and then decide if we want to continue it"?' (Not from the point of the overpowered SW you used for it - but that's another matter. But I'm curious about GK experience - one in particular   )

[Captain_Krash]

A D-B I'm not sure this was asked but on the Lexicanum for Emperors spears it states that the Emperors Spears are charged to protect the region known as Elara's Veil. Is this going to cannon in your novel? I can't seem to find the source of this info anywhere.

 

Krash

[Phoebus]

The good folks at Lexicanum edited the article to take into account blurbs shared by A D-B on social media. That is to say, the author is the source of the information you're asking about.