Emperor's Spears covered by A D B

[Sete]

The gene seed is the same the process to make them is improved I would believe. But yes I can be mistaken. But it would be counter productive not to use the best method available. That's why I believe chapters will only be making Primaris after they are introduced.

 

Hopefully ADB can shed some light into this.

[Draakur]

I can imagine any number of very realistic lore reasons why Chapters mightn't be able to solely produce Primaris marines all the time, to the complete exclusion of typical Astartes, going forward. I wouldn't at all be betting that that's the future of Space Marine Chapters.

[Phoebus]

What follows is complete conjecture on my part.

 

Let’s assume that a given Chapter has the knowledge necessary to harvest, cultivate, and implant the improved Primaris gene-seed, which produces the three special organs that define this new generation of Space Marine. Let’s also assume the size limitations of the Codex Astartes remain in place. Given these assumptions, it’s just a matter of time before an Apothecary the luxury of choosing between implanting a neophyte with traditional gene-seed or Primaris gene-seed.

 

There may absolutely be valid cultural reasons for a Chapter to give priority to certain traditional gene-seed over a batch of Primaris. For instance, I can certainly see how a Chapter may not want to see the Progenoids of a great hero to simply go to waste. I mean, let’s face it: if they were to die, it’s not like the likes of Azrael, Calgar, Dante, Kantor, etc., will have their genetic legacy go in a jar by default.

[mr.crusader]

Given these assumptions, it’s just a matter of time before an Apothecary the luxury of choosing between implanting a neophyte with traditional gene-seed or Primaris gene-seed.

 

Wait a second, I always thought they're implanting organs, not gene-seed. I mean, the only difference is just few more organs, that's it, and the gene-seed is still the same. Is it correct or not?

[Jareddm]

 

Given these assumptions, it’s just a matter of time before an Apothecary the luxury of choosing between implanting a neophyte with traditional gene-seed or Primaris gene-seed.

 

Wait a second, I always thought they're implanting organs, not gene-seed. I mean, the only difference is just few more organs, that's it, and the gene-seed is still the same. Is it correct or not?

 

This is correct, though there would have to have been changes to the underlying gene-seed of the original organs as well because, 1. They all work in each primaris lineage and 2. The primaris progenoid needs to create the additional zygotes that form the new organs.

[Phoebus]

mrcrusader, apologies. I’m using the term “gene-seed” broadly - to apply to the organs themselves - and probably incorrectly.

[Ascanius]

There must be at least some chapters out there where, to put it in Codex-compliant terms, all of their original-pattern Astartes are First Company veterans and just about everyone else is Primaris, because the only non-Primaris Astartes left are the ones who've survived to veterancy.

[Mellow]

If Primaris are just extra organs alongside normal gene seed then I see no reason why normal Astartes can’t be Primarised.

[Ascanius]

They said it was possible to upgrade original Astartes to Primaris once, on the Warhammer TV streams, but they haven't said anything since.

 

If you can't, the reasoning could be the same as why you can't turn an adult man into a true Space Marine - the organs won't work properly if they're not implanted prior to maturation, and allowed to grow along with the candidate's body.

[Loesh]

 

 

And to add a little more, 8th Edition is set like... a century or something after the Great Rift showed up. To the fandom, yep, Primaris are the new hotness and how they integrate with their Chapters is very relevant and important. But in the setting, after a hundred years, they're just Space Marines now. The Sentinels of the Veil (well, the 2 out of 3 Chapters that are still kicking to some degree) have been able to make Primaris Marines for a hundred years, give or take. Or at least several decades. The differences between the two strains of Marine is, by that point, basically minimal. 

 

Most people in the Imperium - even huge swathes of many Chapters' memberships - won't have been alive in a time before Primaris Marines. They just see Primaris as Space Marines now.

 

(That said, for the sake of completion and realism, several characters in Spear of the Emperor do indeed differentiate. They have their own terms for Primaris and Ye Olde Originals, too. But it's not going to be an in-depth analysis of integrating, since that happened decades ago - and as much as it'd be a crowd pleaser and easy money, so to speak... it feels false to shoehorn it in.)

 

I actually adore that Games Workshop went this way with the Primaris marines, it allows more developed opinions on the Primaris to show up rather "OH LOOK IT'S A NEW THING, WHAT DO WE DO?" to be the prevailing reaction. While Dark Imperium has a whole lot of problems in retrospect, one of the things i'm most excited for is the idea of Chaos Space Marines getting used to the idea of Primaris and developing counter tactics. Iron Warriors, Black Legion and Alpha Legion especially I could see spending a fair chunk of time putting together specialized squads to deal with Primaris.

 

Alpha Legion headhunters please.

[HeritorA]

 

 

 

And to add a little more, 8th Edition is set like... a century or something after the Great Rift showed up. To the fandom, yep, Primaris are the new hotness and how they integrate with their Chapters is very relevant and important. But in the setting, after a hundred years, they're just Space Marines now. The Sentinels of the Veil (well, the 2 out of 3 Chapters that are still kicking to some degree) have been able to make Primaris Marines for a hundred years, give or take. Or at least several decades. The differences between the two strains of Marine is, by that point, basically minimal. 

 

Most people in the Imperium - even huge swathes of many Chapters' memberships - won't have been alive in a time before Primaris Marines. They just see Primaris as Space Marines now.

 

(That said, for the sake of completion and realism, several characters in Spear of the Emperor do indeed differentiate. They have their own terms for Primaris and Ye Olde Originals, too. But it's not going to be an in-depth analysis of integrating, since that happened decades ago - and as much as it'd be a crowd pleaser and easy money, so to speak... it feels false to shoehorn it in.)

 

I actually adore that Games Workshop went this way with the Primaris marines, it allows more developed opinions on the Primaris to show up rather "OH LOOK IT'S A NEW THING, WHAT DO WE DO?" to be the prevailing reaction. While Dark Imperium has a whole lot of problems in retrospect, one of the things i'm most excited for is the idea of Chaos Space Marines getting used to the idea of Primaris and developing counter tactics. Iron Warriors, Black Legion and Alpha Legion especially I could see spending a fair chunk of time putting together specialized squads to deal with Primaris.

 

Alpha Legion headhunters please.

 

And we haven't seen that transition from SM to Primaris fully. We haven't seen yet how broad Imperium saw that, what schism appeared, how many hunts for Cawl has transpired.

Question is - so characters in the 'Spear of the Emperor' are default (let's call them that) Space Marine and some are Primaris?

 

'Iron Warriors, Black Legion and Alpha Legion especially I could see spending a fair chunk of time putting together specialized squads to deal with Primaris.

Alpha Legion headhunters please.'

- Fabius should have cracked their code a long time ago. By the time of DI where should have been dozens of warbands with CSM Primaris squads - in my humble opinion.

 

And in general - so at what 'exact' time Emperor's spears take place.

[Mellow]

I don’t believe Fabulous would have cracked Primaris gene code. It’s been hidden for 10k years.

 

Maybe Spears is set in a specific time but it’s highly likely to be post GS. Post Warp rift.

[HeritorA]

I don’t believe Fabulous would have cracked Primaris gene code. It’s been hidden for 10k years.

 

Maybe Spears is set in a specific time but it’s highly likely to be post GS. Post Warp rift.

Well in a 100 years of Indomitus Crusade I think he had the time and resources to capture at least a dozen of new Primaris targets to vivisect ;)

[Rathamanti]

So, I asked A D-B some questions back on my WiP-blog for my Emperor’s Spears ( http://www.bolterandchainsword.com/topic/334362-emperors-spears-wip-army-log/ ). Like the gentleman he is, he was very kind and generous, and it turns out he answered all my questions. Lots of new stuff about the Spears! While running the risk of straying off topic (I’m terribly sorry if so, WarriorFish), I give you A D-B’s answers:

 

Me: How do the spears denote company, squad and battlefield role when it comes to their armour?

 

A D-B: They're a lot like the Crimson Fists in that they don't denote Companies. Squads are marked with Nemetese runes or Roman numerals on the shoulder pads or shins, as usual. Nemetese runes look like Ogham. Outsiders can't penetrate the meaning of these specific symbols, but they're never used elsewhere in the Nemetese tongue, and don't seem to be numbers.

 

Me: What does the dark blue knee pad signify (if it’s even there)?

 

A D-B: That's there. It's a very dark blue, almost black. That's the spot for personal heraldry.

 

A great many Spears have the sigil of the Sentinels of the Veil there, denoting them as the warriors chosen to watch over the region of space called Elara's Veil. The Celestial Lions and Star Scorpions used to have that symbol somewhere on their armour, too. It can be the red and black subsector symbol depicting Elara's Veil on stellar cartography (something Adeptus Mechanicus-ish from the transfer sheets), for example, or it can be a personalised symbol of the nebula itself. (Much in the way the Astral Claws, Lamenters, Mantis Warriors, and Executioners wore the marking of the Maelstrom Warders, in their role as watching over the Maelstrom.)

 

Many of the older Spears have the symbol of the Star Scorpions there, to reflect long campaigns fighting alongside their now-dead younger brother Chapter (use the Red Scorpion or House Malinax transfer sheets, maybe?). Obviously, no Primaris Marines have that.

 

Other Spears have the Celestial Lions' symbol, reflecting long crusades alongside their still-living (barely) other brother-Chapter. Primaris Marines can have that one.

 

Another very common one on the kneepad is the Argent Gauntlet, worn by warriors from both the Celestial Lions and the Emperor's Spears. It's a silver fist, as you'd expect. This is the symbol of something called the Exodus Armada. That's a big deal in the book. Any warrior or any rank can wear it, so it's often the default one. That or the symbol for the Sentinels of the Veil.

 

Me: Any pointers on captain, lieutenant and sergeant helmets (and other armour differences from standard chapters if any) would be nice.

 

A D-B: Sure.

- Sergeants have red transverse crests.

- Veteran Sergeants have red-and-black striped transverse crests.

- Lieutenants have red-and-black striped longitudinal crests.

- Captains have white longitudinal crests.

- The First Company has the trident marking on their helmets, like in my avatar. A lot of them also have it tattooed on their faces, in red or white ink.

 

The Spears don't necessarily use those names for their ranks, though.

 

Me: How do they otherwise divert from the Codex Astartes?

 

A D-B: Operationally? Not hugely. Organisationally? Quite a bit. It's complicated

 

Me: What’s the nature of their homeworld, if they have any and if it’s a single-biome planet? You know, for basing reasons...

 

A D-B: Nemeton is largely aquatic. Its landmasses are small and mountainous, and heavily forested. There are several equatorial landmasses that are largely marshy jungle. Wherever you are on Nemeton, it's likely raining. Rain is sacred to the Nemetese clans.

 

Me: Are they predominantly light, purple or dark skinned or is it a natural mix like earth?

 

A D-B: All kinds of skin tones, go nuts.

 

Me: Librarians. Dark blue armour with spears-baby-blue shoulder pads? Again, helmet colour?

 

A D-B: Librarians wear black, with a druidic and priestly vibe. So do Apothecaries. Techmarines wear black as well, but without the druidic/priestly vibe, and wholly tech'd up. They all have white helmets, and a red trident if they've served in the First Company. (Most haven't.)

 

Chaplains also wear black, but their helms are bone-coloured, and they have red tear-trails down their skull-cheeks. Any skulls on their armour have the same blood-tears, representing something from Nemetese legend that I don't want to mention here.

 

Techmarines don't wear many symbols of Mars. They wear the symbol of the forge-moon Bellona - a halo (like a half-cog) over a blood-weeping skull. That's the same symbol as the (mostly black with red patches) Cult Mechanicus and Skitarii Legions of Bellona - Adeptus Mechanicus make for very good allies for Emperor's Spears armies.

 

Me: You called them “barbarian watchmen”. Should I find my Space Wolves-bitzbox as in pelts and unkempt beard, or are the spears just nackered and dirty after all that watching, but otherwise still noble and civilised? A little word about their nature would be awesome!

 

A D-B: Bone trinkets, talismans, occasional fur pelts, serpent scale-hide sure. These are usually gifts from the Twelve Tribes of Nemeton, not things the Marines have hunted or made themselves. They're nowhere near as common as they are on Space Wolf wargear. Closer to Salamander levels of bling. The most common bling they wear is Nemetese runes on their armour, usually in black, silver, or white - either pantied or carved into talismans. Much like the Spartans, they have codes of conduct that forbid them from being too filthy. Even in the middle of a campaign, they're forced to work on their armour and maintain is as well as they can, to respect the spirit (and as the Spartans did it, to intimidate the enemy, rather that looking battered and weak).

 

Me: I don’t suppose you’ll be willing to hint at which legion they are a successor of, but can you hint at one or more of their specialities if they have any? Heavy armour, fast attack, footsloggers and so on. I need to plan my purchases, and they don’t have to be a Scars successor even though they love bikes, so you wouldn’t be revealing anything...

 

A D-B: You're free to do anything. They have a vast fleet, and they specialise in air-to-ground warfare and orbital drop assaults. They're particularly mobile when it comes to deployment and redeployment, and aren't short of air superiority. But like all Space Marines, they're good at pretty much all forms of warfare. They just have an advantage in that specific area when it comes to wargear.

 

********

 

So, that’s it. Who’ll update Lexicanum :) I think it all sounds perfect and great and awesome, and I am violently excited for my Spears!

 

And thank you again, A D-B, for taking the time to answer all that!

Edited October 5, 2017 by Rathamanti

[b1soul]

Aaron's passion kindles my passion...it's hard to explain

[Kelborn]

Very enlightening!

Thank you for sharing this with us!

 

And thank you, Aaron! :)

 

Such lovely details and fleshed out background. Really inspiring. :D

[Xin Ceithan]

Wow, that's impressive in so many ways. Would like to thank you both, Rathamanti and ADB, for sharing this. That is practically an Index Astartes entry by itself. Seeing how much thought and, yeah, passion has gone into that and given what is hinted at, there must be a virtual Imperial Armour size chunk of work gone into the set up of this, That's impressive on it's own! And there is a novel, too! Guess my interest just from "Let's see what ADB does with that whole Primaris thing" to "Can't wait to find out more of this corner of the Dark Imperium Lore". Have we been hinted what those pesky loyalists are up against yet? With this much Lore on the protagonist and three entire chapters set up to guard the region, I am really itching to find out what they are holding the line against...

[Sete]

I dig it.

[Captain_Krash]

Beautiful tidbits on their background, this novel is going to be great. Can't wait to learn more about them.

 

Krash

[Mellow]

An advantage with their wargear based around aerial superiority ... for Astartes? ... that is most curious indeed.

 

I hope that advantage is expanded upon even if it turns out to be something mundane. Mainly because Astartes are so used to fighting in close combat for hero reasons as modern day readers we often find ourselves wondering why they don’t just attack from a distance to make combat more efficient with less losses. Much like we do in modern day warfare. It’s all drones and air strikes these days.

Edited October 5, 2017 by Mellow

[HeritorA]

As for the heraldics:

- Sergeants have red transverse crests.
- Veteran Sergeants have red-and-black striped transverse crests.
- Lieutenants have red-and-black striped longitudinal crests.
- Captains have white longitudinal crests.
- The First Company has the trident marking on their helmets, like in my avatar. A lot of them also have it tattooed on their faces, in red or white ink.

 

That's a very throughout investigation into the heraldy and structure made by A D-B. Point is - I'm curious how plumes would be effecient in the warfare (especially in the muggy or dusty area). Even with all the wargear and optics - they wouldn't be very visiable through the fog and level of dust.

A D-B partly covered that point in 'Betrayer', but not fully.

[Phoebus]

Part of the charm of Warhammer 40k is the often anachronistic culture that defines the Adeptus Astartes (and, really, most facets of the Imperium of Man). The crest is part and parcel of the same mindset that values embossed laurel leaves, stylized iron halos, and so on. In actual practice, however, the Emperor's Spears would rely on the sophisticated command, control, and communications suite of systems A D-B has described in several of his novels to maintain situational awareness of the location and status of each member of a strike force. The kind of damage that would prevent a suit of power armour from broadcasting that its wearer is, e.g., Captain Neoptolemus Goratrix, is probably enough to also reduce his decorative crest and plume to splinters and ashes.

Edited October 6, 2017 by Phoebus

[Mellow]

The Custodians have plumes and they are awesome.

[Sulemain]

Iron Age Celtic Briton Space Marines?! AWESOME!

[Sete]

The fact that Spears have a trident like Barbados island flag, makes me want to do a similar chapter but with a cross like Madeira island flag.

 

Both flags are similar only the symbol changes.

 

Emperor's Swords. Knightly chapter of course.

 

This is liber material.

 

Where in the galaxy are the Spears located?

Edited October 10, 2017 by Sete