8th Edition & BA

[Panzer]

I wonder how shooting out of Rhinos will work in 8th.

If they actually become durable it might be fun to cruise around shooting out of the hatches with a Heavy Flamer and a Flamer (or two Handflamer). :D

[Damon Nightman]

I just hope we can still dual wield pistols and take a heavy flamer in a 5 man squad!

 

So far, I'm super excited about 8th!

[Quixus]

What is this joke? An ork gets a t-shirt save against against a mini-rocket and burning promethium? To even get the same mediocre performance of 7th edition the bolt gun should have -2 AP.

Edited April 26, 2017 by Quixus

[tkni]

Don't know anything about AoS, but I've seen suggestions that - in lieu of scatter dice - deep strike may function similarly as it does there, by dropping anywhere not within X distance of an enemy.

[Captain_Krash]

There is seriously nothing wrong with the change to bolters. Orks, IG, and Nids among others have suffered looooong enough in a game where a very very popular weapon invalidates there entire army from getting the ability to live(or even make it across the board for that matter). It serves as to better balance the game and it will work and is for the best.

 

If you think flamers are good too just imagine heavy flames BA look to be in a good spot with the few leaks we have so far, can't wait to see whats in store to differentiate them from other space marine chapters

 

Krash

[Indefragable]

There is seriously nothing wrong with the change to bolters. Orks, IG, and Nids among others have suffered looooong enough in a game where a very very popular weapon invalidates there entire army from getting the ability to live(or even make it across the board for that matter). It serves as to better balance the game and it will work and is for the best.

 

If you think flamers are good too just imagine heavy flames BA look to be in a good spot with the few leaks we have so far, can't wait to see whats in store to differentiate them from other space marine chapters

 

Krash

 

Beat me to it!

 

Tacti-Q:

Tactical Marines x 10

--Heavy Flamer

--Flamer

--Sgt. 2x Hand Flamer

Drop Pod

 

[Riot Earp]

Many flamers in one troop will be good but one heavy flamer will get weaker without any decent ap. I loved to burn necron warriors in promethium

[The Unseen]

There is seriously nothing wrong with the change to bolters. Orks, IG, and Nids among others have suffered looooong enough in a game where a very very popular weapon invalidates there entire army from getting the ability to live(or even make it across the board for that matter). It serves as to better balance the game and it will work and is for the best.

 

If you think flamers are good too just imagine heavy flames BA look to be in a good spot with the few leaks we have so far, can't wait to see whats in store to differentiate them from other space marine chapters

 

Krash

Orks, IG, and Nids problems weren't that bolters killed them. Their armor save was the same, or worse, than the equivalent cover save that's pretty much all over a good 40k table. Bolters weren't good in 7th, they haven't been even halfway decent guns since like 3rd.

 

Tau get better range, strength, and ap, eldar get psuedo-rending or poisoned on literally everything, lasguns with FRSRF are literally just better than bolters (in 7th) against anything with an armor save better than 5+ or that has their butts parked inside cover, necrons get to glance vehicles, every single gun in the mechanicus books laugh at how pitiful bolters are, Orks and Nids both aren't shooting armies, but they still do better than tactical marines thanks to ridiculous numbers of shots.

 

The only army with an objectively worse shooting game than the bolter is freaking Chaos Daemons, because they don't have guns at all.

Every other army in the game has either a better gun/way more bullets baseline, or their firing bolters.

 

And it appears that 8th is going to not do anything about the fact that the supposedly well-equipped super soldier flagboys of the setting are still stuck with the worst gun in the game.

 

Anyway, flamers and lascannons both relying a single d6 roll to decide their actual value is going to make them really reliant on RNG and feel super swingy. Not a good thing if your wanting to move a game system away from the current "spam medium strength high rate of fire guns and kill everything" format. They should've been at least d6+1, just so their always at least a little bit better than other guns. As of right now, that flamer has a 1/3 chance of causing about as much damage as a bolter in the same spot.

A lascannon with those stats firing at a T7 creature causes an average of 2 wounds, but has a 40% chance to not do anything. (.6 chance of hitting and wounding, times average of a d6, 3.5) A scatter laser, assuming 4 shots at Str 6, causes (rounded up from .88) 1 wound before saves, but is going to very consistently cause that 1 wound. So lascannons are going to be swingy versus big things but are still the superior gun (though not by as much as I would like). But when you fire that same lascannon at infantry, the lascannon has a 60% chance to vaporize 1 dude, and a 40% chance to do nothing. The scatter laser is going to put a little over 2 wounds onto any infantry target with T4 or less before saves, very consistently. You guys can see where this is going...

Edited April 27, 2017 by Morticon

[Indefragable]

 

There is seriously nothing wrong with the change to bolters. Orks, IG, and Nids among others have suffered looooong enough in a game where a very very popular weapon invalidates there entire army from getting the ability to live(or even make it across the board for that matter). It serves as to better balance the game and it will work and is for the best.

 

If you think flamers are good too just imagine heavy flames BA look to be in a good spot with the few leaks we have so far, can't wait to see whats in store to differentiate them from other space marine chapters

 

Krash

Orks, IG, and Nids problems weren't that bolters killed them.Their armor save was the same, or worse, than the equivalent cover save that's pretty much all over a good 40k table. Bolters weren't good in 7th, they haven't been even halfway decent guns since like 3rd.

 

Tau get better range, strength, and ap, eldar get psuedo-rending or poisoned on literally everything, lasguns with FRSRF are literally just better than bolters (in 7th) against anything with an armor save better than 5+ or that has their butts parked inside cover, necrons get to glance vehicles, every single gun in the mechanicus books laugh at how pitiful bolters are, Orks and Nids both aren't shooting armies, but they still do better than tactical marines thanks to ridiculous numbers of shots.

 

The only army with an objectively worse shooting game than the bolter is freaking Chaos Daemons, because they don't have guns at all.

Every other army in the game has either a better gun/way more bullets baseline, or their firing bolters.

 

And it appears that 8th is going to not do anything about the fact that the supposedly well-equipped super soldier flagboys of the setting are still stuck with the worst gun in the game.

 

Anyway, flamers and lascannons both relying a single d6 roll to decide their actual value is going to make them really reliant on RNG and feel super swingy. Not a good thing if your wanting to move a game system away from the current "spam medium strength high rate of fire guns and kill everything" format. They should've been at least d6+1, just so their always at least a little bit better than other guns. As of right now, that flamer has a 1/3 chance of causing about as much damage as a bolter in the same spot.

A lascannon with those stats firing at a T7 creature causes an average of 2 wounds, but has a 40% chance to not do anything. (.6 chance of hitting and wounding, times average of a d6, 3.5) A scatter laser, assuming 4 shots at Str 6, causes (rounded up from .88) 1 wound before saves, but is going to very consistently cause that 1 wound. So lascannons are going to be swingy versus big things but are still the superior gun (though not by as much as I would like). But when you fire that same lascannon at infantry, the lascannon has a 60% chance to vaporize 1 dude, and a 40% chance to do nothing. The scatter laser is going to put a little over 2 wounds onto any infantry target with T4 or less before saves, very consistently. You guys can see where this is going...

 

 

1. Don't forget that we don't have the full picture yet. SO many pieces are moving and SO many things are changing that so many of our 7th ed ways of thinking about things may go right out the window. Those weapon stats are all we know at the moment. I have a really strong feeling that pretty much any non-bolter, non-Tau (cuz range is their thing) small arms will all be S3, including Eldar shuriken weapons.

 

2. In concert with #1 above, we don't know what the worst gun in the game is yet because we don't know what everyone else gets yet

 

3. As for doing D6 Damage with flamers/lascannons....I think it will come out in a wash. Units with single special weapons, like Tacticals, will by the most swingy for sure. But Devastators are going to earn their money and then some. 4D6 worth of Wounds stacking onto a tank/MC? Yes please! I think it will actually work out that specialized units become important for the reason that having 4x melta command squads and whatnot help even out the risk/reward of D6 damage per gun/et al.

Edited April 27, 2017 by Morticon

[Panzer]

 

Tau get better range, strength, and ap, 

 

Are we back on the niveau of complaining why Tau have better guns? Really? 

 

Anyway I doubt even Tau will keep their AP. WAY too early to go full mad and comparing the 3 weapons we know with something other factions might or might not have.

I believe, if not for the immersion, at least for the balance it is a good decision that your basic weapon doesn't simply ignore armor of every lightly armored infantry. It was always dumb that light armor =  no armor with the current system.

 

I for one am looking forward that your basic infantry is at least somewhat durable now (even more if they are in cover) so you don't place them and take half of it away again if you didn't get first turn.

[durdle-durdle]

 

 

 

Tau get better range, strength, and ap,

 

Are we back on the niveau of complaining why Tau have better guns? Really?

 

Anyway I doubt even Tau will keep their AP. WAY too early to go full mad and comparing the 3 weapons we know with something other factions might or might not have.

I believe, if not for the immersion, at least for the balance it is a good decision that your basic weapon doesn't simply ignore armor of every lightly armored infantry. It was always dumb that light armor = no armor with the current system.

 

I for one am looking forward that your basic infantry is at least somewhat durable now (even more if they are in cover) so you don't place them and take half of it away again if you didn't get first turn.

Tactical marines in cover (+1 save) =2+ save. I really like that cover will actually matter for me now. Death company jumping around ruins with a 2+ and fnp would be dank. Terminators will have a 1+ save in cover too, so if terminator heavy weapon squads ever become a thing, I'll be excited.

[Captain_Krash]

 

There is seriously nothing wrong with the change to bolters. Orks, IG, and Nids among others have suffered looooong enough in a game where a very very popular weapon invalidates there entire army from getting the ability to live(or even make it across the board for that matter). It serves as to better balance the game and it will work and is for the best.

 

If you think flamers are good too just imagine heavy flames BA look to be in a good spot with the few leaks we have so far, can't wait to see whats in store to differentiate them from other space marine chapters

 

Krash

Orks, IG, and Nids problems weren't that bolters killed them. Their armor save was the same, or worse, than the equivalent cover save that's pretty much all over a good 40k table. Bolters weren't good in 7th, they haven't been even halfway decent guns since like 3rd.

 

Tau get better range, strength, and ap, eldar get psuedo-rending or poisoned on literally everything, lasguns with FRSRF are literally just better than bolters (in 7th) against anything with an armor save better than 5+ or that has their butts parked inside cover, necrons get to glance vehicles, every single gun in the mechanicus books laugh at how pitiful bolters are, Orks and Nids both aren't shooting armies, but they still do better than tactical marines thanks to ridiculous numbers of shots.

 

The only army with an objectively worse shooting game than the bolter is freaking Chaos Daemons, because they don't have guns at all.

Every other army in the game has either a better gun/way more bullets baseline, or their firing bolters.

 

And it appears that 8th is going to not do anything about the fact that the supposedly well-equipped super soldier flagboys of the setting are still stuck with the worst gun in the game.

 

Anyway, flamers and lascannons both relying a single d6 roll to decide their actual value is going to make them really reliant on RNG and feel super swingy. Not a good thing if your wanting to move a game system away from the current "spam medium strength high rate of fire guns and kill everything" format. They should've been at least d6+1, just so their always at least a little bit better than other guns. As of right now, that flamer has a 1/3 chance of causing about as much damage as a bolter in the same spot.

A lascannon with those stats firing at a T7 creature causes an average of 2 wounds, but has a 40% chance to not do anything. (.6 chance of hitting and wounding, times average of a d6, 3.5) A scatter laser, assuming 4 shots at Str 6, causes (rounded up from .88) 1 wound before saves, but is going to very consistently cause that 1 wound. So lascannons are going to be swingy versus big things but are still the superior gun (though not by as much as I would like). But when you fire that same lascannon at infantry, the lascannon has a 60% chance to vaporize 1 dude, and a 40% chance to do nothing. The scatter laser is going to put a little over 2 wounds onto any infantry target with T4 or less before saves, very consistently. You guys can see where this is going...

 

 

 I just wanted balance so I don't deploy my soldiers on the board and remove them when a cool breeze blows by. And yes having almost every weapon in the game ignore your armor is a problem. 

 

Here maybe you can understand this.

 

You pay the points for power armor per space marine right? And I bet you get to roll armor saves. Well I pay points for my flak armor on my guardsmen. I rarely get to use my flak armor. 

 

Especially against Space marines never mind xenos. This will bring lightly armored armies a chance to live and be useful as opposed to just a tax...this is to improve the game. I mean if your a fan of all biker list or Taudar list or Tyranid flying circus thats fine, but it's not healthy for the meta in the slightest. So yeah Orks, IG, and Nids all deserve a chance to be able to hold the line...or make it across the board for emperors sake. 

 

This is a welcomed change and it is happening. Every army without a 3+ save benefits from this. 

 

But of course maybe "Bolters" have some sort of -1 armor save effect I mean we don't know everything...yet, keep an open mind.

 

And remember Bolters still wound T3 on 3's...the sky isn't falling

 

Krash

Edited April 27, 2017 by Morticon

[Helias_Tancred]

Ok, this resolves the issue of multiple template weapons with different profiles nicely!

 

I wonder if gunslinging hand flamers will be able to do 2D6 hits.

 

I still think D6 hits for a template is low. D6+1 or +2 Would be better, I think, You can generally hit minimum 3 with a flamer.

 

I really want to know what the new heavy bolter profile looks like. 

 

EDIT:

 

Lacannons are only -3 to saves, making them the equivalent of modern AP4. Dreads will get a 6+ saves against them and termies will still get a 5+ save. D6 wounds means a termie stands a reasonable chance of surviving a hit.

 

If Land raiders get T10, 2+ save with 12+ wounds...that will be tasty.

 

Agree 100%! d6+1 is more reasonable IMO.

[Calistarius]

I'm actually looking forward to not having to waste time measuring out unit coherency spacing to avoid pie plates and templates. Plus the d6 hits for a flamer will make them viable more against other marines again (and other large based armies). I'm just an optimist though :)

[Xenith]

I'm actually looking forward to not having to waste time measuring out unit coherency spacing to avoid pie plates and templates. Plus the d6 hits for a flamer will make them viable more against other marines again (and other large based armies). I'm just an optimist though

 

I'd say that's the main reason for doing this. People were complaining that the game was too slow, and took too long. I'd imagine that they have excised large parts of the slow bits, like scatter dice, which are a source of conflict. (Blast) Templates make people spread at max coherency which takes ages.

 

I'd imagine rolling for psychic powers is also gone now, and you pick from a list at army creation, same with warlord traits. They were all good ideas, but unsuited to large games. I stopped playing with my Thousand Sons because the book keeping was excessive.

Edited April 27, 2017 by Xenith

[Charlo]

Hopefully the rules drop and twin hand flamers on Vanguard are still a thing...

 

Quite looking forward to a potential 120 S3 Flamer Hits....

[Panzer]

Hopefully the rules drop and twin hand flamers on Vanguard are still a thing...

 

Quite looking forward to a potential 120 S3 Flamer Hits....

If Handflamers actually do d6 hits that is. Maybe they do only d3. Who knows.

Really looking forward to having ALL the informations. ^^

[Charlo]

If they only did D3 at a shorter range AND were lower strength they'd be total garbage.

 

But hey, another tid bit for us...

 

Info from Twitter:

 

When asked:

Currently, special pistols like the plasma or grav pistol are not worth their points. Will this be true in 8th?

 

Pete replied:

I really hope not...

 

So maybe we'll finally see a change to the ridiculous cost of the Plasma Pistol!

 

If this applies to us too, Inferno Pistols and Hand Flamers could be getting a nice little boost.

[Xenith]

If they only did D3 at a shorter range AND were lower strength they'd be total garbage.

 

But hey, another tid bit for us...

 

Info from Twitter:

 

When asked:

Currently, special pistols like the plasma or grav pistol are not worth their points. Will this be true in 8th?

 

Pete replied:

I really hope not...

 

So maybe we'll finally see a change to the ridiculous cost of the Plasma Pistol!

 

If this applies to us too, Inferno Pistols and Hand Flamers could be getting a nice little boost.

 

Well, he said he hopes.

 

GW main seem to think 15pts for a plasma pistol is ok, and have done since 1999. We've seen the cost of plasma guns change from 6 to 15pts in 4th when they were deemed too powerful, power fists etc change depending on who was wielding them.

[Panzer]

Or maybe they'll be useable in melee as well in 8th...would kinda justify the 15p i'd say. :D

[Xenith]

Or maybe they'll be useable in melee as well in 8th...would kinda justify the 15p i'd say.

 

That I can get behind!

 

TBH, the way I'd do it is charge in the movement phase at double M value. Assault weapons and pistols are allowed to be fired on the turn a unit assaults. Pistols count as an additional ccw.

[Panzer]

 

Or maybe they'll be useable in melee as well in 8th...would kinda justify the 15p i'd say.

 

That I can get behind!

 

TBH, the way I'd do it is charge in the movement phase at double M value. Assault weapons and pistols are allowed to be fired on the turn a unit assaults. Pistols count as an additional ccw.

 

I'm a great fan of the whfb 7th edition mechanics so I'd love seeing things like: charge at the beginning of the movement phase at double M, "retreat" reaction for the unit that gets charge in case they don't want to give Overwatch (charging unit would move only their regular M distance towards their target if they can't catch them with their charge distance) etc.

 

That kind of stuff was what gave whfb a lot of tactical depth. But then again it was a lot more about melee and it was actually really important to charge into the flank or back of a unit so there's that. :P

[BloodTzar]

Overall I like the 8th ed, seems to be somehow quite balanced.

 

However I am not sure, if how much AoS-ization will get into the 40k, I hope not everything. In particular the roll of for who starts each turn is scary, that rule single-handedly can ruin whole 40k. Specially in environment where charging 1st is now WIN/LOSS

 

~BT 

[Panzer]

Overall I like the 8th ed, seems to be somehow quite balanced.

 

However I am not sure, if how much AoS-ization will get into the 40k, I hope not everything. In particular the roll of for who starts each turn is scary, that rule single-handedly can ruin whole 40k. Specially in environment where charging 1st is now WIN/LOSS

 

~BT 

iirc they said we won't have to roll for initiative and specifically mentioned it's not AoS after all. ^^

[Charlo]

https://www.warhammer-community.com/2017/04/27/new-warhammer-40000-movement/

 

Running is in the move phase.

 

Units can WALK OUT OF COMBAT. BUT THAT UNIT CAN'T DO ANYTHING ELSE FOR THAT TURN.

 

 

Psychic phase tomorrow :D

Edited April 27, 2017 by Charlo