8th Edition Guard Discussion

[clanfield]

i agree initialy with the thoughts on gsc and guards...but...

 

we get to be bad arse with out cool aid also points what ever the "allies" get we get more boyos and more armour on the field

 

vs there extra "what ever" ,and if thats not guard white and blue what is :)

[FlamingDeth]

You can also add guard detachments to space marines or inquisition or ad mech or whatever and it doesn't seem to unbalance anything. It's just adding more options to GSC/bids/whatever.

[zero88]

Am I the only one who is going to be very upset if Ogryns don't have 4W now that Tyranid Warriors and Meganobz have 3?

[FlamingDeth]

Probably? It looks like as a piece of wargear, just like terminator armor, mega armor is going to add +1 wound to the profile, and I would have to double check but I could have sworn that tyranid warriors had three already. Ogryns have never had issues with durability, that's always seemed to match the fluff, they've just been too expensive.

[duz_]

Tbh I'm not bothered the heretics will burn either way!

 

Funny thing is though my local GSC players don't like that change either! Haha

[Julgolax]

If only GW would make alternative soldier models and we didn't have to rely on even MORE expensive alternatives to GW products. Who'd have thought 10 men in parade uniform with "laser rifles" would be more expensive than your average guardsmen box... O.o so sad.

 

If I were rich, I'd do an Astra Militarum and/or Adeptus Mechanicus / Skitarii army. Hell, I might even do Orks if I were rich. But I'm not. :sadface:

[Lord Marshal]

Tbh I'm not bothered the heretics will burn either way!

 

Funny thing is though my local GSC players don't like that change either! Haha

 

How come? You'd think they'd appreciate the extra options. 

[duz_]

I think because the Guard lost cult ambush and replenishing from reserves?

[zero88]

If only GW would make alternative soldier models and we didn't have to rely on even MORE expensive alternatives to GW products. Who'd have thought 10 men in parade uniform with "laser rifles" would be more expensive than your average guardsmen box... O.o so

This.

 

I'm planning on doing a storm trooper army (assuming they have at least mid tier rules) mostly because it's ridiculous how the plastic range is the same as when I was a high schooler in 3rd edition 15 years ago without even a refresh with more bits and options in the box.

[NatBrannigan]

I've had a think and changed my mind (poorly thought out immediate reactions on the Internet? The horror!!).

 

I'm thinking if all the armies are pretty balanced there won't be much difference in power between:

 

1) All Guard

2) All Cults

3) A bit of both

 

This has the potential to open up lots of options which is something I've always liked. With rules written in an attempt to cut out ally super friends shenanigans this could potentially allow anyone to make the army of their dreams without breaking the game! They could use this exact mechanic for Chaos as well for traitor Guard. After all our faction represents the trillions and trillions of basic humans in a galaxy full of crazy alien super predators, genetically enhanced Mary Sues and Warp spawned beings of purest evil. They could and should be used to represent humans across the galaxy in different situations.

 

I'll be sticking to the Imperium, but I have 4 inquisitor models staring at me from my cabinet... Is there any real difference between adding in Genestealers for infiltrating fun than between adding in a Landraider full of angry death cult assassins for close combat?

 

So, in summary, choice very good as long as the rules limit how much in game abuse it can be put to. (What!? I've always wanted an army of Wraithknights, Riptides, Librarians and Genestealers! It's sooo fluffy!.... Blegh...)

[Nicodemus Doloroso]

I thought the new profile for plasma, as revealed in the Plague Marine dataslate has some interesting implications for Guard:

 

 

So now, you can fire the plasma gun in "standard" mode, with essentially the same abilities as previously, but without any "Gets Hot!".

 

Or you can "supercharge" it for Str 8 but if you roll a 1 the model using it is slain outright. I think this benefits Guard on the whole. Previously, Guard were at a bit of a disadvantage since we tended to die much more frequently to "Gets Hot!" than marines did. Now, the Marines will be dying equally (when they opt to supercharge) so I think that makes plasma a bit less of a risk for 4-5 point guardsmen versus 13 point marines. Plus, I like the fact that you have the option to "play it safe" most of the time, and just take the risk of supercharging when you really need to kill something tough. With 4+ to hit Guard commanders may simply choose to stick with the standard mode anyway. 

[Brother Captain Ed]

Guilliman was in the faction focus today. If a 6" bubble of re-rolls for Ultramarines is the extent of his non-combat abilities, then he is, indeed, SUPER toned down.

I'm tentatively disappointed since I was looking forward to having my troops follow the Lord Commander into battle. Fingers crossed for a bit more than that. Otherwise a company commander giving orders will do more, non-combatwise, for a Guard detachment being directed by the Great Tactician himself.

[Harrowmaster]

Plasma is back on the menu :)

[Nicodemus Doloroso]

Plasma is back on the menu

All the more so, given that it appears that plasma will now be cheaper than melta, if the leaked Space Marine datasheets with full points are anything to go by. For marines, at least, a meltagun is now 17 points whereas plasma is 13. I don't know, seems like plasma might be the go-to option, although I want to see how much grenade launchers cost. Krak grenades are now Str 6, AP -1, D3 damage (at least when thrown) which seems a modest boost. The Astartes Grenade launcher makes Frag grenades Assault D6, Str 3, AP - ... if the price is right grenade launchers may have a place as well. But plasma is still looking like the premier option especially in the power armour-laden tournament environment which is unlikely to change.

[NatBrannigan]

All the leaks! It's so close I can nearly smell that new book smell!

 

Just ordered 6 Bullgryns and Ogre Pith Helmet heads for them (finally...), and I've finished my Tempestus Scion Sharpe and Harper conversions to replace my current Raging Heroes Scion leaders (What was I thinking buying them!?).

 

I am ready for 8th!

[Shamansky]

Guilliman was in the faction focus today. If a 6" bubble of re-rolls for Ultramarines is the extent of his non-combat abilities, then he is, indeed, SUPER toned down.

I'm tentatively disappointed since I was looking forward to having my troops follow the Lord Commander into battle. Fingers crossed for a bit more than that. Otherwise a company commander giving orders will do more, non-combatwise, for a Guard detachment being directed by the Great Tactician himself.

I'm glad they seem not to load him up to top with super powers. I don't want to meet this overambitious Mary Sue in every other game leading a pack of his overgrown new toysoldiers.

[duz_]

Based on the sisters leaks looks like priests will take a back seat. Only conferring +1A in CC with war hyms.

 

Commissars limit battle shock to just 1 model though if with 6" that's nice though. Hopefully it doesnt only to apply 1 unit per turn.

[NatBrannigan]

That +1 attack is pretty good I thought? Especially now Priests and Commissars have a bubble effect. I'll be trying to get a Priest and a commissar throwing off their buffs to a Blob and the shielding Bullgrys as well. 30 attacks from a blob is ok, 60 is... well very ok I guess! Glad to see Commissars will be more important in this edition though. They scream Imperial Guard to me.

[Nicodemus Doloroso]

Based on the sisters leaks looks like priests will take a back seat. Only conferring +1A in CC with war hyms.

 

Commissars limit battle shock to just 1 model though if with 6" that's nice though. Hopefully it doesnt only to apply 1 unit per turn.

 

Limiting battle shock to only 1 model is potentially quite huge. What are the stats on commissars like?

 

I did see the priest ... +1A in CC is a bit underwhelming especially since zealot is what everyone took the priests for, but they are a bit better on their own. I think a priest could be quite nice buff for a counter-attack unit. Rough Riders will be faster than him, but +1 A with hunting lances might be brutal if the lances are good. If you use the 'Riders as counter assault, as long as you keep the priest near the area where you'd expect enemy to attack it could work. Hmmm ... now to start modelling a priest based on Otto Witt to accompany my Praetorians!

 

There are so many threads and sources for leaks, I didn't realise there were some Guard leaks??? Can someone link to them in this thread?

[WarriorFish]

Here it is Nico. Commissars give their Ld to nearby units as well as limiting losses to one model it appears.

[NatBrannigan]

Ooooh! Thanks Fish! Commissars look excellent, exactly what I wanted! Inquisitors as well look like they'll be great! "can enter ANY Imperial vehicle" That alone has made my day, the bubble effect depending on Ordo is just Gravy. I hope it's not just re-rolls against psykers / Xenos / Deamons but I'm fairly sure that's exactly what it will be.

 

I'll feel bad using my Ordo Malleus against my brother in laws Deamons then... It'll be the Lore of Light from 8th addition all over again!

 

The Demolisher Cannon... Again that seems somehow less scary than it used to be? I guess against large units of multi-wound models it will be devastating (wahey!) but, I can't think of many such units?

[duz_]

I actually like the new Demolisher profile, will be good against high T and W targets, which it should be!
My only peeve with the new blast rules are is that you have to roll a D6 for number of shots then still roll to hit
Which means for Guard unless theres other buffs were unaware of on average even on a roll of a 6 you're only going to make 3 hits.

Also given Damage doesn't overflow blasts aren't going to be great against hordes.

So I guess that's where the Punishers and Exterminators will shine.
I wonder what will happen to the Nova cannon?

[Nicodemus Doloroso]

Here it is Nico. Commissars give their Ld to nearby units as well as limiting losses to one model it appears.

 

Thanks, WF ... although I'm taking those with a grain of salt since I see someone just typed it up, it is not actual photos of the book. That said, this seems very promising and commissars seem almost mandatory (fittingly, given IG fluff) to limit battle shock. They will make IG units stand and fight much better with a leadership boost AND only losing a max of 1 model to battleshock. Tarpit combined squads will definitely still be a thing, with the caveat that the enemy can run away but that's okay since that feeing enemy still can't shoot or charge so they're still neutralized.

 

 

 

The Demolisher Cannon... Again that seems somehow less scary than it used to be? I guess against large units of multi-wound models it will be devastating (wahey!) but, I can't think of many such units?

 

I don't know, I think the Demolisher Cannon new rules are quite fitting and effective for the role that it is supposed to play. It has the potential to dish out a nasty amount of wounds to the really tough stuff like enemy armour and titans (and fortifications). And that's exactly what the Demolisher is supposed to do. With some good rolling, you could dish out a dozen or so wounds to a Knight or similar. There isn't a lot else that could do that kind of damage in one round, although lascannons could (I have a feeling that lascannons will be a LOT better in this edition and for a mere 5 point increase in cost assuming IG have same armoury prices as marines; if we have cheaper they could be even better -- I should have bought six instead of three from Curious Constructs!).

[Nicodemus Doloroso]

The way that the Space Marine Narthecium works now is of interest to me with potential implications for Guard as well ...

 

Now, the Narthecium grants a mere 6+ FNP, however, it also allows the apothecary to heal one model within 3" or revive one dead model within 3". I think this counteracts the nerf to the FNP and will help our officers stay alive longer to keep giving orders since they can be healed wounds on a 4+. Alternatively, with a commissar keeping battle shock losses to 1/turn and with a few medics nearby reviving models, this could give us more "staying power". Now, granted, bringing back a 4-5 point Guardsman is not the same as bringing back a marine (it would be nice if our medics could bring back 2-3 models), but I expect that our medics will also be a lot cheaper than SM apothecaries. Depending on how the force org stuff shakes out for Guard, we may be able to spam somewhat commissars and medics to keep our platoons in the fight. Which to me is awesome and thematic. THe more I think about it the more I love the new lease on life that these rules look like they will give commissars. Instead or rarely seeing them on the table (I personally took them purely for fluff reasons because even at 25 points they were not really worth it), they will now be mainstays in IG armies as it should be.

 

EDIT: Added a link to a photo of a BA Sanguinary Priest to show what I'm talking about vis-a-vis the Narthecium.

[WarriorFish]

It'll be great to see Medics better, and seeing more use - would be nice for a points drop on top so we can dot them around in PCSs :)