8th Edition Guard Discussion

[Nicodemus Doloroso]

Having noted how much better platoon commanders are now, company commanders are a mere 10 points more for +1 wound and +1 order, and with the elite slot so packed, if we don't have to take platoon commanders, then I don't really see why we would. Just take company commanders instead, leaving more slots available for commissars, command squads, priests (if we want them), special weapon squads, etc.

I just "priced out" a 1500 point list and I can fairly easily make a Brigade Detachment.

Mind sharing what's in your wonderful list?

No, not at all. This is a rough sketch, mind, and it's based on a Praetorian/Rourke's drift theme with a bit of 40K-ifying, but basically:

HQ

Company Commander - bolt pistol, chainsword (31)

Company Commander - power fist, plasma pistol (45)

ELITE

Command Squad - vox, mortar (35)

Command Squad - medic, standard, flamer x2 (53)

Commissar (50)

Commissar (50)

TROOPS

Infantry Squad - Plasma, Autocannon, vox (67)

Infantry Squad - Plasma, Autocannon, vox (67)

Infantry Squad - Plasma, Autocannon, vox (67)

Infantry Squad - Grenade Launcher, Vox (50)

Infantry Squad - Grenade Launcher, Vox (50)

Scions x10 - meltagun x2, plasma pistol on Tempestor + Taurox Prim with Gatling cannon, 2x volleyguns (210)

FAST

Rough Riders x10 - hunting lance x7, meltagun x2 (118)

Scout sentinel with mulilaser (45)

Scout Sentinel with mulitlaser (45)

HEAVY

Punisher with hull and sponson heavy bolters (176)

LRMBT with hull lascannon, sponson heavy bolters (190)

Heavy weapons team with 3x lascannons (72)

I believe that's about 1475 based on quick math. And that's a Brigade right there with a few points to play around with. Certainly not as much wargear is needed as I put on there but I got a bit silly with the bargain basement prices. Its only three vehicles though, definitely a 3rd edition feel, but with a lot of boots on the ground.

EDIT: Oops, I forgot that a third HQ is needed. I may have done the math wrong too as I was rushing. Should be easy enough to jam something in there to get up to 3 HQ. Maybe make one of the commissars a lord commisar especially since I noticed that 50 points is the Lord Commissar price not the basic Commissar price so my # are off in that regard. I would like to get snipers of some kind into this list as well, either Ratlings or veterans I guess. 5 Ratlings would cost 35 which would be taken care of by my error in pricing the commissars.

[Ldorte]

As someone who often runs an armoured battle company list I cannot say I'm impressed with the changes to tanks.

 

The damage isn't too bad against other vehicles, but I think I would have preferred having either the demolisher or battle cannon have a more anti-infantry aspect to them as currently as far as I understand the new rules (and I could be wrong), I can wound 6 enemy models at maximum with the battle cannon and 3 (6 in squads of 5 or more) enemy models with the demolisher as the damage (wounds) cannot spill over onto other models. Those 3/6 models are very likely guaranteed kills but when you've got several squads of 30 orks charging at you that will rip apart your tank if they get to it, the damage output seems kinda pathetic.

 

It wouldn't be too bad if we had a dedicated anti infantry platform but the punisher is actually kind of pathetic as you'll miss most of the shots, not make all of the to wound rolls and then due to the lack of an AP value the enemy will make a few saves. The Wyvern is not much better as you'll most likely get between 12-16 hits which then have to wound, yes you get to reroll but at strength 4 and no modifier what are you actually likely to kill?

 

Don't even get me started on the point increases.......

 

edit: I didn't take into account sponson weapons but at a 4+ to hit if you haven't moved it is not exactly going to add much, especially for the points cost involved.

[Gothical]

Not a fan of separating Officers from the Command Squads, nor the changes to the tanks and artillery (D3/D6 shots is massively worse than I used to engineer with templates, and D6/2D6 seems almost insulting on the Baneblade and variants), the fact that Tank Orders now affect a single vehicle not a whole squadron, nor the fact that we still can't give Sergeants a lasgun.

There are a lot of changes I do like, the Bullgryn are great defensively and the Hydra will be murderous, Plasma has generally got a lot better and cheaper and Conscripts have had their value restored by removing blob squads (I thought this might happen when I saw the improved FRF order). 50 Conscripts backed up by an Officer, Commissar and Telepathica Psyker with Psychic Barrier could be very dangerous indeed - you may be hitting on 5s but 200 shots at short range from models with a 3+ Save in cover is bonkers (though unlikely to occur on the table due to size of terrain, prior casualties, etc.) Even more nastily, you can use Yarrick instead of a Commissar to get those Conscripts re-rolling 1s To Hit.

The Taurox Prime is amazing now, given it is effectively driving around with 12 Marines shooting from it if you give it the Gatling Cannon and a Storm Bolter, and it still gets Autocannons/Hot Shots to add to that firepower too. And a 14" move. Woof.

A Bullgryn with Maul now carries the melee equivalent of an Exterminator Autocannon, which really isn't bad at 42ppm and can be stacked with Priests for +1A. That's a unit to use Fix Bayonets! on if ever I saw one. I'm thinking 3 Slab Shielders to soak damage and then 2 Maulers to do the heavy lifting in melee. Also note that theoretically you can have models with Slab Shields and Mauls, giving us Terminator-equivalents, but I would definitely magnetise until the true Codex hits as I can't see that lasting really!

[Ficinus]

I like the idea of throwing three command squads with four special weapons each in a Chimera and just unleashing close range plasma/melta hell.

[Rustam]

Shame you can no longer shoot out of transports (i think?), hurts mech armies a bit. However, as mentioned before, does seem like its possible to fit even a Brigade Detachment in 1k, maybe the versatility of having more command points can be a very nice advantage to the guard?

 

Not sure how popular this change will be, but I really like the freedom splitting commanders from their command squad gives you! Kinda dig the idea of a senior officer and several junior officers just spread among the ranks. Fits the fluff of my regiment at least.

[Otto von Bludd]

I am extremely impressed with these changes!  Guard is going to feel like Guard again! So many tactical options are open to us now, so many potential synergies!  I had some trepidation seeing all these D6shot weapons (what if I roll a 1!) but then I considered how easy it is going to be for us to run a Brigade detachment with our cheap infantry squads, elites, and so forth.  That is 9 command points right off the bat, and what is one of their primary uses? Re-rolling any dice.  Among all the possibilities muddling my thoughts right now, I considered Pask in a Vanquisher, hitting on 2s, re-rolling 1s with the Gunner's Kill on Sight! order.  He essentially can't miss.  The Vanq cannon rolls 2 dice already for damage results and if one happens to roll extremely poorly on it, or the lascannon, it will be easy to drop a CP for a reroll.  You'll have a very good shot at putting couple  -3AP wounds with 10-12 damage total from those 2 guns alone, not to mention 2 supercharged plasma cannon sponsons (you re-roll ones remember!) for an additional pile of wounds.  I can see Pask fairly reliably one shotting most medium vehicles with this setup and doing heavy damage to anything stronger.  Creed also looks excellent, giving additional CPs and orders as well.  A brigade with Creed has 11 CPs already.

 

Rough riders look excellent, with 3 attacks (1 base, 1 from chain sword, 1 from steed), charging out of outflanking reserves, reusable lances with massive damage, and the order that lets you fight again as though you were in the fight phase.  Nothing is going to want to get charged by these guys. 

 

Valkyries are going to be great as well, loaded up with 2 rocket pods, 2HBs and 1 ML that is some serious firepower, coupled with 2 special weapon teams kitted out with flamers and backup from the Officer of the Fleet giving the Valk rerolls of 1 to hit...I could go on but I need to digest all this some more.

[Reyner]

I really like the Imperial Guard changes - I may finally pick up the Tempestus Scions Start Collecting set for the sweet Taurox prime.

[H311fi5h]

I am extremely impressed with these changes!  Guard is going to feel like Guard again! So many tactical options are open to us now, so many potential synergies!  I had some trepidation seeing all these D6shot weapons (what if I roll a 1!) but then I considered how easy it is going to be for us to run a Brigade detachment with our cheap infantry squads, elites, and so forth.  That is 9 command points right off the bat, and what is one of their primary uses? Re-rolling any dice.  Among all the possibilities muddling my thoughts right now, I considered Pask in a Vanquisher, hitting on 2s, re-rolling 1s with the Gunner's Kill on Sight! order.  He essentially can't miss.  The Vanq cannon rolls 2 dice already for damage results and if one happens to roll extremely poorly on it, or the lascannon, it will be easy to drop a CP for a reroll.  You'll have a very good shot at putting couple  -3AP wounds with 10-12 damage total from those 2 guns alone, not to mention 2 supercharged plasma cannon sponsons (you re-roll ones remember!) for an additional pile of wounds.  I can see Pask fairly reliably one shotting most medium vehicles with this setup and doing heavy damage to anything stronger.  Creed also looks excellent, giving additional CPs and orders as well.  A brigade with Creed has 11 CPs already.

 

Rough riders look excellent, with 3 attacks (1 base, 1 from chain sword, 1 from steed), charging out of outflanking reserves, reusable lances with massive damage, and the order that lets you fight again as though you were in the fight phase.  Nothing is going to want to get charged by these guys. 

 

Valkyries are going to be great as well, loaded up with 2 rocket pods, 2HBs and 1 ML that is some serious firepower, coupled with 2 special weapon teams kitted out with flamers and backup from the Officer of the Fleet giving the Valk rerolls of 1 to hit...I could go on but I need to digest all this some more.

 

Can Pask give orders to himself? I believe officers can only order units below them now.

[our_baz]

So, I've been lurking and reading all the leaks coming out regarding the 8th edition. It is definitively giving me an impetuous to start playing again after after a 20+ year break from playing the game. The "new" guard rules make my guard army viable/fun to play from my perspective, just need to find a gaming group local to me now! One very optimistic frater here with regards to the future of the game.

 

P.S. Its also very refreshing to read all the well thought out comments in the barracks with regards to the forth coming drop of the 8th. It gets a little heavy up in the N&R section at times. 

[WarriorFish]

It's the era of the trooper - practically a love letter to you baz ;)

[Sete]

Hmm. Using Scions with tank heavy support. I like it.

 

I assume the Scions can use chimeras aswell? Not a fan of the Taurox.

 

If I can run a full Scion list with all the Guard veichles, yeah I'm up for it.

[our_baz]

It's the era of the trooper - practically a love letter to you baz

Its like they are daring me to field a table top full of red coats!

In all seriousness back on topic, like many a frater these rules changes are a shot in the arm for me hobby wise. Mrs our_baz has always asked what can you do with the models you paint, I explain you can play a game using them. To which she asks well why don't you? My main response is I find the rules too complicated (6th/7th), and my feeling was that I need a PhD in 40K rules law before getting near a table. As a flip side to this, I've recently returned to playing a recent GW release based upon the rugby/NFL, the rules are on one piece of card and I was up to speed within a 1/2 turns. I never felt I would pick up the previous 40K this quickly.

From what I've seen of the "new" rules it looks easier to get into and understand for the novice (me!). This is driving me to want get the rest of my guard/BA successors/30K Sallies/dirty xenos painted so I can use them, rather than paint and store away in a box. Plus the leaked rules for our guard are really darn interesting.

[WarriorFish]

The rules are greatly simplified, in some ways not playing before will help you out as you won't have baggage from previous editions :P I'm really looking forward to 8th, and I think we have a pretty good codex to start us off on :) Looking forward to seeing you get some games in baz :D

[Brother Talarian]

Watch them make Scions an Elite choice again in our codex.

 

"Buy all these scions! They're troops now!"

 

"Let's switch it back to Elites boys, we got our money."

[HenricusTyranicus]

Watch them make Scions an Elite choice again in our codex.

 

"Buy all these scions! They're troops now!"

 

"Let's switch it back to Elites boys, we got our money."

Even if they're elites, we just have to buy a 30 point commander, who's very useful in his own right, to get all the elite slots we want.

[HenricusTyranicus]

Okay, about Valkyries. It says that when a unit disembarks from a transport, it can act normally that turn. It can move, shoot, charge, etc. So is there any reason I cannot throw two special weapons teams in a valkyrie, give them all flamers, grav chute them in 9 inches away, and then stroll up to 3 inches away with both of them and hit the enemy with 6 flamers?

[Beaky Brigade]

With all the odd changes and uncertainty with space marines for the near future I'm suddenly inspired to don my flack vest and power up my lasgun! With all those super soldiers and primarchs out there marvel movie punching each other it feels good to be back in the trenches with the men of the Guard! (Maybe with the Inquisition backing them up in case of any new edition fluff Heresy)

[Brother Talarian]

 

Watch them make Scions an Elite choice again in our codex.

 

"Buy all these scions! They're troops now!"

 

"Let's switch it back to Elites boys, we got our money."

Even if they're elites, we just have to buy a 30 point commander, who's very useful in his own right, to get all the elite slots we want.

 

 

 

What do you mean by this?

 

As for what you said about Valkyries, yes. From what I'm reading, as long as you don't move the Valk more than 20" you can Grav shute 9" away. Now, this could casue a heated debate. Does the Valk moving count as their move? Or does this special rule allow them to move after? If they can, wow, have Valks become the new Chimera or what. Even better, really.

[Truesight]

Okay, about Valkyries. It says that when a unit disembarks from a transport, it can act normally that turn. It can move, shoot, charge, etc. So is there any reason I cannot throw two special weapons teams in a valkyrie, give them all flamers, grav chute them in 9 inches away, and then stroll up to 3 inches away with both of them and hit the enemy with 6 flamers?

Nice catch.  Special weapon squads, shotgun veterans loaded with pain, Bullgryns.  Can get off some nasty stuff with that.

 

Anyone going to talk about our new 27 point 3 man mortar teams?  3d6 shots at 48 inches not needing line of sight.  I think we can use them to clear all the enemy sniper teams off the board on turn 1 so our characters can go to work with impunity while our ratlings end theirs.

[Thoridon]

I'm thinking the Scions will be where I amass my Melta. Some big tough creature/vehicle making its way towards you? Drop a bunch of Scions in 10" away with no scatter and blast it with Melta shots (plus a Plasma Pistol on the Tempestor). Sure, the hot shot lasguns will need to roll 6 to wound against anything T6+, and the wording of their aerial drop rule being "more than 9" means they won't get the extra shots, but with split fire they can always choose weaker targets if you're not desperate for that slim chance of an extra wound. I can see myself running a few of these squads in reserve to drop in at opportune times.

 

Veterans I might well still build with Plasma as I intended for 7th. I know it's not as strong as Melta against high wound single models but their lack of a 'deep strike' rule means using a transport to get into position the turn before shooting. The extra range on Plasma guns could be valuable in that situation, at least getting single shots if the enemy moved away before you could disembrk or getting the extra rapid fire shot as a bonus if you can get within 12". Being able to supercharge for 2D is also going to be very strong if you have an officer following them to issue Take Aim, and if you're unlucky enough to roll double 1s a Plasma Gun isn't that many points to lose now. Again, lasgun wielders in the squad can just shoot at a weaker target.

 

I'm still thinking about Infantry Squads. In some ways I'm restricted to metal models having fixed weapons, but then I also have enough models to mix things up. I could run different special/heavy weapons in different games. I'm tempted to try a couple of builds:

 

1) Holding the Line: Heavy Bolter and Grenade Launcher, plus Vox. Longer range supporting fire at minimal cost, and a Company Commander can be up to 18" behind (with Vox support) to issue orders.

2) Advancing: Flamer only. Have a Platoon Commander following closely behind to issue the multi-rank order to give all the basic lasguns 4 shots in rapid fire range. Get up close, roll all those dice and then either charge or hold ready to repeat the same with overwatch.

 

Both setups would avoid the more expensive heavy/special weapons as basic infantry are still going to die fast, plus lack the BS to get the most out of them.

 

For Command Squads also liking the idea of 2 approaches:

 

1) Support: Mortar and Vox and sitting behind the lines, shielding a Company Commander while providing the extra order range and some supporting artillery fire.

2) Special Weapons: 4 Plasma Guns acting the same as a Veteran Squad, but at lower cost.

 

The more I think about it the more tempted I am to skip Veterans and just run Command Squads for plasma. Sure, they don't have the extra bodies to soak wounds so will probably die fast after their first turn of disembarking/shooting, but you can more or less run 2x Command Squads with 8 plasma guns for the cost of 1 Veteran Squad with 3.

 

Heavy Weapons Teams I'm highly tempted to gear up with Mortars and spam in the backfield. Cheap and cheerful, they wouldn't need to move and I can use tanks to get the stronger lascannon shots etc. Being 4+ to hit (or 5+ after moving), and still not very durable, I think I'd still avoid the more costly weapons on them. Mortars would be so cheap it wouldn't be much lost if anything does get them, and they could thin down infantry quite a bit.

[WarriorFish]

My mortar HWS is feeling pretty good about 8th, yeah :P Might be the push I need to finish a few other HWTs I've had in the pipeline.

 

The fact that Bullgryns and Stormies were already in my queue is the Emperor's providence. Was it Coffee who was waiting to mix and match Bullgryn equipment? Wish the Sergeant Major wasn't glued now though :P

[HenricusTyranicus]

 

 

Watch them make Scions an Elite choice again in our codex.

 

"Buy all these scions! They're troops now!"

 

"Let's switch it back to Elites boys, we got our money."

Even if they're elites, we just have to buy a 30 point commander, who's very useful in his own right, to get all the elite slots we want.

 

 

 

What do you mean by this?

 

Vanguard detachment. You buy one HQ, and a minimum of 3 elites, and have three more optional elite slots. Gives you one command point. Run a Brigade alongside that, you have 14 elite slots, and 13 command points. Not too shaby.

[Truesight]

Bullgryns in cover with a Primaris Psyker have a 0+ save. You still get a 3+ save against a lascannon shot...

[Azarians]

So nice stuff for IG guys !

 

 

I think that Valkyries are really good now, do you think that we can move and chare after grav-chutes ? If this is the case, bullgryns are back to the menu boys !

 

And now with the Rough Riders you can charge and relance with command point the turn you arrive from reserve, who said that IG was a shot army ?

 

And what do you think that Pask can give the order to reroll 1 to hit to himself ? So it can be really good in vanquisher no ?

 

Last question (sorry i'm too excited ^^') do you think that the hellound is good now ? And what weapons for HWS ? Autocannon still good for them ? 

 

Thank you guys ;)

[sedibear]

ok so

 

mortar HWS are 27pts for 3d6 s4 ap0 dmg1 shots

 

a wyvern is 85pts for 4d6 s4 ap0 dmg1 shots

 

call me crazy but id rather take 3x of the mortar HWS for 9d6 shots i can spread around plus better orders coz it's infantry huehuehuehue