8th Edition Guard Discussion

[WarriorFish]

That may be for the best, given how little support the main Guard codex has got!

[Shamansky]

Still sounds like witchcraft to me... You'd best report to the nearest Commissar. For uh tea... Yes, tea...

Witchcraft?! Where!? Show me the blight! Or is that you who can hear it? Repent!

[NatBrannigan]

Uuuuuh, well done brothers! It was all a test! Of course we never withdraw, you've all passed. Cake and Medals all round!

 

In other news: I'm actually happy with an "Imperium" Codex staying like that as well. It won't but it would be nice. I've got Inquisition troops scattered throughout and would love to add a few Sisters for added witch burning potential (need plastic models!). The Tempestus codex I suspect is gone, and that's fine. It was always a bit limited and  I suspect a special battalion in the Guard Codex will be all you need to play a pure Tempestus force. Even a one liner saying if your whole army has the keyword (Tempestus Scions) then they count as troops would do the trick.

 

I need to get painting! very excited for this!

[WarriorFish]

Cake? You dare touch the commissariat's blessed cake tin, despite the label that very clearly says "COMMISSARIAT ONLY - BUGGER OFF"? 100 lashes for you Nat, and you're assigned to latrine duty until the release of 8th!

[Arkaniss]

At least in the barracks we don't have to worry about any "the cake is a lie" memes :lol:

 

Looking forward to getting my mitts on 8th, I hope IG come out well - then I'll look at painting more of my old models up and making a small army proper :) Thinking of using Victoria minis to bulk out the force if needed, don't much fancy the cost and effort of trawling ebay for old IG models!

[WarriorFish]

Scions probably get a keyword I imagine yeah, would make sense. The books aren't too bad either given I collect enough of the armies within - xenos aside.

[NatBrannigan]

I get lashes for eating the cake (And as a true English Preatorian Officer and gentleman I have my own biscuit tin thank you very much! It arrived in place of ammunition with the last supply shipment, much more important) but people are talking about buy the Xenos indices!? This may need bringing to the attention of the Inquisition sir!

 

So so so very much looking forward to 8th. Hopefully the wife gives me extra pocket money this month (for Bullgryns and another Tank) and next month (for the books). Otherwise it's Kidney selling time!

 

Oh, and it looks like Battlecannons will be fairly brutal against things like Primaris and the new Plague Marines, so there's hope for the old girl yet.

[micahwc]

Indices worked out well for me, I'm starting guard and SOBs.

[NatBrannigan]

Dear God!!! The new Leviathan Dread is an absolute beast! It's Strength 16 in combat!

 

16!!!

 

I'm building cannon fodder Anti-Dreadnaught specialist Conscripts to feed it tackle the abomination straight away...

[Nicodemus Doloroso]

Well, strength 16 wounds guardsmen the same as strength 6 but yeah, got to keep that beast away from our tanks. That's what the Guardsmen are for :-)

 

Toughness 8, 14 wounds ... it's a tough nut to crack but some decent rolling with meltaguns and lasguns will chew through those wounds and reduce its effectiveness.

[micahwc]

My math is probably wrong, but I'm looking at 4 strength 8 weapons to wound it one time on average;

 

disregarding however many wounds our attack does. BS 4+, ST 8 versus T8, = 4 attempts with a ST8 weapon to do damage 1 time, also assuming it gets no armor save of any kind. On top of that you are going to likely need 5 such hits to kill it, if you average 3 damage per wound that gets through.

[Nicodemus Doloroso]

Whoa, that math hammer really puts into perspective how much better Dreadnoughts in general, and this one in particular, will become this edition. Suddently the old Str 8 meltagun doesn't seem the hotness it used to be although at least when it's within 6" getting one shot through has the potential to do significant damage. Gone will be the days of killing a Dreadnought in one turn with a handful of plasmaguns for sure.

 

That extra strength of a lascannon just got a bit more important, especially in conjunction with its much longer reach. If nothing else, tactics are going to change this edition.

 

On another note, surely now that we see how hard it will be to take down a dreadnought with meltaguns will be, we can put to rest any question of lasguns supposedly taking down land raiders in droves, as people (outside the Guard subforum) have been so upset about?

[micahwc]

Just read it's rules, it can heal itself and it has a 5+ invulnerable save.

 

As for lasguns,

 

hits on a 4+ (.5) (assumes guard still hit %50)

Wounds on a 6 (.15) (assuming on a 6+ due to low ST and high T)

5+ invulnerable (.33)

 

 

So if my math is right, which it probably isn't, a single lasgun has a .02475 chance to do 1 wound. So if your 50 man platoon does First Rank Fire, and you fire 100 shots at this thing, you will average 2.4 wounds to it. So your 50 guardsmen will take 7 turns to kill one using just lasguns under optimal conditions and average rolls.

 

Edit: So 700 lasgun shots compared to 500 bolter shots; ironically, the guard are more likely to get off 700 lasgun shots than any marine equivalent army is to get 500 bolter shots due to number of bodies. Quantity has a quality of its own.

[micahwc]

More math. You are about 3 times more likely to injure it with a flamer than with a lasgun.

 

D6 hits automatically so 3.5 average hits

wounds on a 6 (.15)

5+ invulnerable (.3)

 

Best thing we know about so far would be a Las cannon squad. 3 las cannons will average almost 4 wounds per turn to this thing. 5 meltas outside of melta range will average 2 wounds, 5 flamers will almost average 1 wound.

 

Heavy weapon teams will be really nice to have around, especially now that they can move and split fire.

[Nicodemus Doloroso]

Why would the Leviathan Dread be taking its 5++ versus lasguns instead of its 2+ armour save?

 

Throw the 2+ armour save into the mix and you're going to need way more than 700 lasgun shots.

[micahwc]

I didn't see the 2+, you are correct. Las cannon squads are even more important.

[Nicodemus Doloroso]

I didn't see the 2+, you are correct. Las cannon squads are even more important.

 

Yeah. Kind of wishing I ordered two sets of lascannon batteries from Curious Constructs. I may have to yet if they pan out points-wise and are more survivable somehow.

[FlamingDeth]

Should be interesting to see the stats for vanquisher russes then...seems like they'd be custom made for taking out something like that. Maybe single shot but 2d6 wounds or something?

[The Pounder]

That's what I'm waiting for!

I'm sitting on a Macharius Vanquisher and will love to see what it could do!

Also what the new rules for barrage weapons are, I'm dying to add some artillery but will wait and see.

I'm really excited about 8th, most of the people I play with regularly are all building new armies!

40k hasn't been so popular with us for a looong time.

[Nicodemus Doloroso]

Should be interesting to see the stats for vanquisher russes then...seems like they'd be custom made for taking out something like that. Maybe single shot but 2d6 wounds or something?

 

Yeah I'm interested to see this, too.

 

I am still trying to wrap my mind around what the trusty "vanilla" Leman Russ Battle Cannon will be good for. Terminator and Primaris Marine hunting? I guess it could chip a few wounds off something like the Leviathan Dread. I suppose it will be, as before, somewhat of a jack-of-all trades that's ok at many things but not great at any one thing.

[NatBrannigan]

It would be good at taking out Primaris Marines, the new Plague Marines, things with FNP or equivilant and/or 2 wounds. A decently rolled Battlecannon shot will wreck a squad of Primaris Marines.

 

But it does seem really lacklustre... Maybe all the main weapons on Russ's are being toned down due to sponsons and the like becoming more useful? But other vehicles weapons seem to be improving fast :(

[Lord Marshal]

Something from the Ork Faction Focus that may be somewhat relevant to us.

 

 

 

Morale is not nearly as problematic for Orks as it was, either. The Boyz have multiple layers of morale defence built into their army. The best way to mitigate it is by having a Warboss within 3″ of a unit of Orks; he can simply knock a few of them senseless (D3, to be exact) to keep the rest of the Boyz in line and in the fight.

 

Presumably the Commissar will function somewhat similarly to this?

[NatBrannigan]

So Genestealers cults can just take units from our army now. No restriction, just one Cult detachment for each Guard detachment... So Cukts are now just Guard with more options? I'm not sure how to feel about that at all, that seems like a real slap in the face.

 

First thing I've not like the sound of at all...

[WarriorFish]

That sounds a bit rubbish

[Brother Captain Ed]

I dunno about the "slap in the face" thing. I think we often get too emotionally involved and GW certainly didn't have a group of designer and writers sit around and say "You know what? Screw Guard players."

But, that said, I'm not thrilled either. This is supposed to be the edition of balance. If GSCs can take Guard with not restriction then only two possibilities exist:

1.) The IG is so woefully underpowered that adding them willy-nilly to an army won't unbalance the other faction, or

2.) The IG is so overpowered that all the Genestealer tricks in their arsenal don't matter.

I like neither option.

And I just yesterday decided to play Guard primarily for the foreseeable future.

EDIT:
After thinking, third option: The whole galaxy is moving towards a future where "faction" lines are drawing VERY thin. This is definitely possible. With "Imperium" being a keyword, as it stands now, you could have a battle-forged army drawn from no fewer than five groups that we think of as "factions." This may be most likely...